Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (3:31)

Yeah, well, a workbook is kind of. You're still working through things. We don't have an exact outline and it's really based on you. And you are asked to do a lot of the heavy lifting. And it could be the right ladder if you are going to climb a ladder, or it could be the wrong one. But a playbook is the field manual for resiliency. And so I wrote the Playbook, which is essentially a book, but it is protocol based and it is the book that I wanted.

Dave Asprey (4:03)

What's the difference between the book you wanted and the other book you published with your name on it?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (4:08)

Okay. That book, Forever Strong, which, by the way, they actually ran out of books.

Dave Asprey (4:14)

So. Good.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (4:15)

Crazy.

Dave Asprey (4:16)

Congratulations.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (4:17)

Thank you. And I dedicated that book to my longtime mentor, Dr. Donna Layman, the OG and this is a book. So Forever Strong, the first book, really framed a conversation about muscle beyond being jacked in tan with your skinny tank tops. But it provided a sense of muscle as the focal point, as both. Right. And you and I have talked about this. Muscle is the focal point beyond strength and power, but also metabolism and the way in which we get there, both from nutrition and of course, it addresses the fallacies around nutrition, but also the training aspects and the way that muscle is positioned for longevity. However, you and I both know that it doesn't matter how many books you have. If you do not close the gap from being interested in the information to the actual execution, then those books will live and die on your shelf.

Dave Asprey (5:18)

I think it does matter. I'm sorry. If you have enough books, you can use them for curls. Right.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (5:23)

Oh, so Dave, by the way, so I saw Dave, when did I see you? A handful of months ago. Four months ago.

Dave Asprey (5:28)

Yeah.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (5:29)

And I saw this guy. I was like, holy shit. Jacked with good posture. I was like, what's happening? We've. We've obviously gotten the Forever Strong look down. So obviously the curls are working. So if you guys are not reading books. Send them over to Dave. He will add them to the stack of additional curls.

Dave Asprey (5:49)

Exactly. And you can do like push ups if you want to go, like really stretch your chest. Have like six copies on each. For, for me, the fixing, my metabolism was first and foremost. And then I realized I travel at least 50% of the time. It can be brutal, time zones, circadian stuff, but mostly it's restaurants. And I know how to order good food, but I wasn't getting enough protein. And as you and I both know, you want about a gram per pound of body weight. And I looked and I said, okay, if I want to get good quality beef, you just can't get it in a lot of places. So I'd get sushi and you just can't get enough protein that way. So I started bringing protein powder and just being unapologetic. I just go to dinner and sometimes lunch, and I just say, I'll have the surf and turf. And I go, that's not on the menu. Go. I know, give me the one pound steak and the big piece of halibut or give me two steaks or bring me a steak for dessert. And they think I'm nuts. And I'm not eating the potatoes, but just getting adequate protein for my body weight really, and doing it consistently really makes a difference. And that actually means you can exercise less if you want to, and still it works. But some exercise is good.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (6:55)

I think that you hit on something really important, and that is once you adjusted your metabolism, and I think, you know, the way that I'm hearing that is you became metabolically healthy, which someone who is metabolically healthy. Skeletal muscle, for example, burns primarily fatty acids at rest. And when we over consume carbohydrates, we end up distorting our metabolism, forcing muscle to burn glucose at rest. And you don't want that. You really want to earn your carbs. And once you get that under control, then you end up not chasing the highs and lows of, you know, blood sugar. And then if you know a woman and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm having a hot flash. And I go, oh, my gosh, you're not having a hot flash. You're probably just trying to chase your blood sugar. I mean, there's a whole host of things that then regulate. Not that one would regulate hot flashes with food, but let's just say if you are again, chasing these ebbs and flows, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. And ultimately, you know, you know this in order to show up fully for yourself, your loved ones, your community have to be operating in a domain of agility. And to bridge the gap. This playbook has a mental component which again, I think is the biggest piece that takes people over the edge because they can't connect the dots of, you know, understanding things are hard, should be hard. You sort of book on this and being able to take these things in a protocol based manner and execute on them.

Dave Asprey (8:34)

If you're stuck in a helpless mindset, you can eat all the steak in the world and do all the bench presses you want, but it doesn't work nearly as well. Why do you think that is?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (8:44)

Negativity. Even if we feel like it is just a thought, I think that one would say that it affects all health outcomes. It just does. So one could exercise and diet and perhaps transform their body. But on the flip side for sustained, you know, you don't see the two together. You don't see chronically negative people be incredibly healthy and reaching their goals. I mean, listen, I could be wrong, but as a practicing physician, I will say that negative emotions, I don't have data to support this, but negative emotions drive up inflammation. I think that, that there's a very real potential there.

Dave Asprey (9:33)

You said that you don't manage your hot flashes with food, but I know one way to do that. Eat a lot of fish sauce. Why would that give someone hot flashes?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (9:42)

I mean, listen, you'd be so hot, you don't know if you're having a hot flash. I mean, yeah, you just wouldn't even know.

Dave Asprey (9:49)

Like high histamine foods for a lot of people. And fish sauce is one of the highest soy sauce. You eat that and you think you're having a hot flash and you kind of are, but it's because you're having a histamine reaction. And because when you have extra estrogen, you're more sensitive to histamine. And when you don't understand that different foods really do have that effect, it makes you feel helpless. Like it just happens. But it doesn't just happen. It's ultimately your fault, isn't it?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (10:14)

Well, isn't your fault that you're having a histamine reaction? And by the way, so my, one of my best friends, Michelle Shapiro. Do you know Michelle? Have I introduced you yet? No. So she is a histamine dietitian. Like, this is a whole episode on histamines. And I will tell you, she called me the other day and she's like, you need to talk to Dave about histamines. And I know this has nothing to do with the playbook. But histamines are a real thing. And I believe we recently did a mast cell activation syndrome podcast. And I think that that is essentially the new Lyme. That it is something that people have and have been struggling with for a very long time. But in much of the medical. I don't want to say literature, cause there's a lot of literature out there, but the medical community has really that piece. I'm curious as to know what you think.

Dave Asprey (11:05)

It turns out that a lot of people are attracted to your content or my content because they know something's wrong. Like I'm doing the things I think they're supposed to work. And if it's long Covid, if it's toxic mold, if it's metals, if it's something happened and now I'm reactive to everything, it's because something, maybe a leaky gut, the stuff that we both share knowledge about, it basically reprogrammed the system to be more reactive. And sometimes there's a genetic component. And when you understand the genetics and what happened, you can unpack it so that you get people who are much less sensitive to this. But it is a major cause of chronic fatigue. But it's the mast cells that are activated by the histamine. So since a lot of women don't have histamine issues, then perimenopause comes up. And all of a sudden, because of extra estrogen floating around without counterbalancing hormones, suddenly the cells are much more sensitive. So then a lot of these hot flashes, if you were to take a quarter Benadryl, shockingly, maybe it wasn't the estrogen, it was the extra histamine that was causing that to happen. And so then you regulate the digestion, you become more resilient, make sure you're actually eating enough protein so your cells can be resilient, manage the hormones the way you should, starting at perimenopause, even before. And then magically you have a woman who sails through perimenopause. Sure there'll be some ups and downs, but they're gentle enough that you know you've got it. And then your odds of dying from all cause mortality go so far down for the rest of your life. Breast cancer risk, cardiac risk, Alzheimer's risk, all the stuff that women are at risk of that we don't even talk about half the time. And that's why I love where you've positioned yourself, because you're teaching women to be strong even before that happens. And while that happens, because that muscle balance is. It just. It's so critical. But what is the number one piece of advice for women that you would say? Okay, they want to be strong, and you have all kinds of things in the playbook. But number one, where do I start?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (13:02)

Well, number one, get your mind right. You have to have an ethos. You have to orient yourself to the direction. Being strong is not a luxury. It is an absolute necessity and a responsibility. Number two, the other truth is, although Dave, you might disagree, aging is inevitable. What it is. Even if you look like you're 25, aging is inevitable.

Dave Asprey (13:29)

Of course it's inevitable. Aging does happen. You can counterbalance it, but it's not like it didn't happen. You just managed it, right?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (13:35)

Yes. So aging again, it is inevitable. And taking real action early through becoming strong. And I will say, women, for decades, it's really been about salads and leotards. It's just the truth. I mean, it's just the truth. Now we are at the precipice of a new generation. And this is a generation. At least this is what I believe. This is a generation that is going to embrace strength. And it is the first time ever that we are really seeing strength come into the mainstream. Women forever are still and maybe even still today, which I know is true because I see patients afraid of looking bulky. It is nearly impossible. Both Dave and I have been trying to look bulky for the last 30 years. It's not going to happen, and it's just not. And I want to say one more thing on mast cells, because I did not know that we were going to talk about histamines. But there is a muscle connection here. And also so with connective tissue disorder.

Dave Asprey (14:38)

Talk about that.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (14:39)

Yeah, Ehlers Danlos, individuals that have a genetic. You know, there is a spectrum of connective tissue disease, quote, disorders, mast cells, many of them reside in connective tissue. So as a woman goes through perimenopause, as her estrogen progesterone levels are changing, as if she is someone who has Ehlers Danlos or some kind of connective tissue disorder. Then as her body destabilizes for better lack of the word, she releases more histamines from connective tissue.

Dave Asprey (15:17)

Now, you mentioned EDS, which is about 27 different types of connective tissue disorders. It's massively underdiagnosed. And there are many other types of that aren't specifically that, where something is a little off in your collagen formation. And without advanced genetic testing, you'll probably never find it. But one thing, if your Wingspan is greater than your height. So if you measure from arm to arm, that's a pretty good sign. You probably have something going on. And this, you know, you've always had a leaky gut and you always have dislocated joints. You don't have to have a name for it, but you're probably more susceptible. So what do those people do? Okay, they become Gabrielle fans. How do they make their connective tissue healthier?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (16:00)

Slowly? This is the one area, this group of individuals, because they are depending on where you are in the spectrum, have a lot of hypermobility. So they're popping their shoulders out, popping their knees out. Just layer on Hashimoto's. And now you've decreased tissue tendon turnover. All of that to be said is you do it a crawl, walk, run, no pun intended. Okay. Lifting is so important. Strengthening the muscles around the joints and the tendons is critical. I will say something else is that our muscles will outpace our tendons in terms of strength. So as you are focusing on building muscle or hypertrophy. So if you're going to be focusing on hypertrophy or strength, your muscle will outpace your tendons. And you, if you are someone who has Ehlers Danlos or connective tissue disorder, you want to actually go slower, allow your body to recover. Perfect place for blood flow restriction.

Dave Asprey (17:07)

Ooh, well said. Blood flow restriction for listeners. That was in my book before this one. It's when you have something like a B strong cuff that cuts off some blood flow, but not all to your arms or legs. And then you exercise with less weight and it acts as if you've lifted more so you're less likely to get injured. And it's funny you're reminding me. Years ago I put on 27 pounds of muscle in six weeks.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (17:33)

How did you do that?

Dave Asprey (17:34)

Well, I cheated, obviously. I was using a stack of SARMs, selective androgen receptor modulators. I wrote a blog post about it. It's still on the daveasprey.com and I tore both my shoulders because if you put on that much muscle, your muscles are strong, but your tendons and connective tissue cannot keep up. So I remember thinking, God, I'm kind of like getting a little bulky in a good way. And then I went to New York to go speak on Tony Robbins stage. And I get there and the shirt that I wore six weeks before, I blew buttons on like I couldn't wear it. So I had to buy this dumb looking blue shirt at some local store because it was the only thing that would fit me. So I went up a shirt size in that amount of time. But that probably wasn't good for me and I wouldn't recommend doing it that quickly. And I did actually tear both shoulders and had to get stem cells to fix it. So to your point, this is a real thing.

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Dave Asprey (18:33)

No judgment.

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Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (19:42)

Yeah, and if we are really thinking about. So there's this concept that we've all heard about. So we've all heard about lifespan and then we've heard about healthspan. But I think the real gem in all of this is a concept called muscle. Spanish muscle span is the length of time you live with healthy skeletal muscle. And this is the core determinant factor as to how an individual will age. To your point, if you get injured and this discrete moments of injury, they're what we would think of as catabolic crises. They take people out, right? Unless you are a professional biohacker or something of, you know, along those lines, if you get a shoulder injury and you do not get stem cell or you do not get this repaired, this takes you out. So you're going along like this and this is your aging. And then people think aging is like this. It's not. Aging is like this. And then you never quite go back to baseline and then it's like this. So they are step down discrete moments in time that become very difficult to overcome. And I just want to point that out because, just because that's the model of aging that we see Reflected in the literature for my muscle bros and mommies or however you want to say it. This can be overcome by thinking of all the pillars and all of the. The ways in which we strengthen. Strengthen. Strengthen the architecture of our bodies. And that again, that does begin with a resistance training program. And it's not progressive overload. I would like people to think about it as progressive stimulus. It doesn't have to be heavy. It can have multiple inputs that change. Whether it's the volume, the amount of actual exercise, the tempo at which you are doing it, the, you know, the frequency. There's all these other things. Rather than just going in and lifting heavy. Because right now I think this, the space for women particularly is your hearing. You must lift heavy. And I would say no, you must get enough stimulus for the outcome that you are looking for. But it doesn't have to be heavy. Especially if you are someone with hypermobility or Ehlers Danlos or something along those lines. If you go in and you are lifting heavy and you dislocate your shoulder or you dislocate your elbow, you're done.

Dave Asprey (22:23)

You're totally correct. And I've seen so many people, especially when they get into their 60s, one injury and then they're kind of done. I always say, well, what would happen if you put on blood flow restriction bands in your hospital chair and you ran some electrical current over your muscles? Anything to stimulate them, even if it's not perfect, just to keep your muscle mass. And it seems like the few who will do that, or maybe they come into upgrade labs or doing pulsed EMF or doing lymphatic circulation, anything to keep the muscle kind of stimulated and alive. Makes a meaningful difference in how they feel. So is there an age where lifting.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (23:06)

You should just be done when you're in the grave?

Dave Asprey (23:08)

My friend, when you're in the grave, I somehow don't see you doing that. I think you'd be in the grave, like lifting the lid of the coffin. But that's just.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (23:16)

But let's go a little outside the box here, okay? On the opposite end of that, what is too young? I would say there is no too young. People are not going to like that answer.

Dave Asprey (23:25)

I'm in two minds about that. I think teaching kids form and lifting with light to moderate weight is good. But if you take little kids or especially teenagers and their growth plates aren't closed and then they lift really heavy and they overtrain, it'll close the growth plates prematurely and they won't be as high as they could be, right?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (23:44)

I think the bigger component there, injury that takes them out of sport. I think that there's more evidence to support. In the US we are very, we go from one sport to the next sport to the next sport and the kids, they do not have time to recover and they injuries that then take them out. So I think it's, you know, when I was looking at the data, it's been a hot minute since I looked at the growth plate data, but it wasn't super convincing. And I think that the data is better, that kids can have a structured training program and begin to thicken their tendons. You know, runners, you know, you see those individuals that have been running their whole life and you're like, oh my gosh, you're running marathons, you've been running your whole life.

Dave Asprey (24:34)

Yeah, you think they're a hundred, but they're only 50. Those ones.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (24:36)

Exactly. But you're thinking, you know, how do they, you know, then you and I, we decide that we're going to go run a marathon and you know, 5K in we're limping and we've gotten now tendonitis or we've torn our Achilles heel and, or Achilles tendon. And I think that there's something to be said for early training to lay down the foundation of a healthy metabolism and healthy muscle mass. So if there are parents out there listening. My four year old is training for the SEAL teams.

Dave Asprey (25:08)

That is so cool. I love it. Even learning a martial art or dance, functional movement for kids. Learning how to be uncomfortable and how to push is really hard to teach because so much in modern education is around, oh, was that uncomfortable? You know, have a coke and like, what is going on? So what is going on with kids and that willingness to go into what you call the pain cave.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (25:34)

Yes, the pain cave. You know, you are meant to, and you've talked about this a lot, Hormesis, you are meant to come up against uncomfortable scenarios. And again, does a kid need to go into the pain cave? They've got their own level of pain cave. And pain cave is if you think about a crucible event or you think about putting yourself in a position where you cannot think of anything else. And it's one horizon at a time, you know. Rich Devin, a former commander of Seal Team 6, talks about one horizon at a time when you strip everything away. And I think, you know, it's, it's similar to what you've talked about in your book, your, your most recent book.

Dave Asprey (26:19)

Yeah, bite.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (26:20)

Exactly. There's something to be said for that. It Allows you to navigate your own human nature just a little bit better.

Dave Asprey (26:26)

It sounds like my calendar is just never ending. Like one appointment after the other. Just paint. Okay. Just kidding.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (26:31)

Welcome to motherhood. Welcome to motherhood.

Dave Asprey (26:34)

Exactly right. That is kind of how it feels for, for parents of young kids. It's like you thought you were busy and then you had a kid and then you realize how busy you really are now and it's a whole different, whole different game. And sometimes not worrying about the future, just one foot in front of the other now. And yeah, you train that in the gym where you don't think you can lift, but you do it anyway.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (26:55)

Or, or I'll give you a handful of other things. Is there ways to create friction? So human beings were totally predictable and we are surprised by our own humanness. Friday night rolls around, we decide, listen, I'm on a mission, I'm eating clean, I'm training. And then Friday night rolls in and you're just hitting on ice cream. I mean, you deserve it, right? And then the next day we are shocked that we fell off the wagon. And then we get right back on. And then the next day, then Friday night rolls around and we have to come to a point where we are not surprised by our own human nature and recognize that it is predictable. And there are tactical things that do to create friction outside of the moment to be able to build up a level of discernment and discomfort and Are you ready? You're going to be like, this is so simple. Are you sure? And I'm going to say yes. Okay, stand by.

Dave Asprey (27:59)

Are you telling me that you don't eat the ice cream sometimes?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (28:01)

Well, yeah, I will if I train. Because you're in your cards. David's being very serious. Like he's being versus. But let's talk about friction. Seriously. Human beings, we. So there's this drive and motivation.

Podcast Host Disclaimer Voice (28:14)

We.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (28:14)

I'm sure you've talked about dopamine a ton. We have a drive to do the next big thing. And you know, I, I always think of this one patient that I have and he puts on this huge event in Vegas every year and he's just doing pushups in the back and his team is getting ready for months and it's like build, build, build. And then, and this is actually interesting because you and I had a conversation about this similarly after. But right at the peak, the day before the event, he's at an all time high. Max out vulnerability. At the height of the excitement, you are vulnerable. Everybody, all of us listening. When left unchecked that high emotional state, you're vulnerable. And as high as you allow yourself to go will be as low as you fall. So fast forward to the vent is over. He's done. Amazing. I wait for the call, Doc, I'm depressed. I. I don't want to. I don't know. I. I don't wanna train. I'm just gonna lay here in this hotel room and I'm like, all right, I know that this is gonna take, I don't know, two months to get him out of this hole. And as high as he allowed himself to go was as low as he had fallen.

Dave Asprey (29:31)

Two months. Aren't there some pharmaceuticals that accelerate that.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (29:34)

There are now, Dave, only you would know this. Yes, but this is a guy who's like, nope, no pharmaceuticals. No. Like, this is. He's not using nicotine. This is not.

Dave Asprey (29:46)

Wait, is this. I just want to make sure he doesn't fly or drive there. He walks there because those tools are helping him.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (29:52)

Right, Listen, I'm with you, brother. But. But what the viewer, listener, or your community has to understand is that as high as you go is as low as you will fall. And it is at that high and that low that makes you vulnerable at the end of the day. This longevity game that we are all involved in, this Biohack game, this muscle span game, all depends on your ability to take the next right action. So what can we do? Because it is predictable. And the first thing that we did, which is a little silly, but helped, was that we started talking about the event for the following year like it was just another Tuesday. Just another Tuesday. The level of emotional regulation. He wasn't allowed to listen to a bunch of loud music. There were no effing push ups in the back. There were no craziness about the teams and the this and the that. He was forbidden. This event was just another Tuesday, changes everything. You have probably gotten to be very.

Dave Asprey (30:55)

Good at doing that 100%. Man. When we put on our second biohacking conference, like 14, 15 years ago now, yeah, it was super high intensity. And there was a recovery afterwards. And our most recent one, 4,500 people. Steve Aoki's playing the concert. Wired magazines covering it, all this stuff, I was not stressed. Like, my team had it. And it was maybe a little bit more than another Tuesday. Maybe more like a Wednesday, right? Where I'm full of gratitude and it's bigger, but it wasn't dysregulating. And that ability to self regulate, it comes from mitochondria, it comes from metabolic activity. I think it comes from muscle mass too, and bone density and ability to generate electricity, but also how to direct it. And what's interesting, in your playbook, you talk more about directing energy than just about eat more steak and do your push ups. Oh, yeah, right. So why did you make your shift into mindset even more strongly in this book?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (31:59)

Well, it's always been a huge part of my life. Again, we're a military family and it is something that there's all the out, there's all the do the thing right. Oh, eat the protein. Oh, train, oh, recover. There's muscle clocks and circadian rhythm and I don't know, you're laying out there naked and getting all the sun. All of that is great. However, without a flexible mind. And I just, I really wanted to put the playbook in a form where people could see what are the steps they have to do so that they can become more adaptable. And, you know, we included a whole bunch because, again, you know, I've been seeing patients since 2006. A good doctor recognizes patterns of disease. An effective doctor recognizes patterns of people. And I wanted to allow people to begin to see themselves and their patterns so that we could get off the hamster wheel.

Dave Asprey (33:01)

What happens when. When a woman who's dating starts paying attention to forever strong and starts putting on muscle and becoming more resilient? What does it do to their dating life?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (33:12)

Well, obviously she's more attractive.

Dave Asprey (33:16)

Yeah. But it does more than that.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (33:18)

Okay, I'm just kidding. Just go with the mom jokes here. If she follows the playbook, then what she is going to find is a better, more resilient version of. Of herself. And at the end of the day, she will be a lot more capable of discernment. And discernment is the ability to focus on the right thought, whether it is relevant or not, whether it is worthwhile or not, and then make the next step to the right action. And she will be so much more capable as a human. That is the promise that I make. We are with this playbook. It allows her an opportunity to walk through her life and her process differently than she has done it before. And to me, it's just. It's like autopilot's antidote. And let's face it, we are in a world that is. That's made things very easy, including dating. I mean, I don't really know, But I'm sure 50 years ago you didn't have a dating app.

Dave Asprey (34:29)

You did. It was called your church, called the white pages.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (34:33)

But yeah, she is going to Feel stronger. But again, a level of clarity that, you know, Dave and you and I have been kind of Dan. I mean, you've been dancing around this space since before it was a space. But for me, I didn't come to write a book and I didn't come to talk about protein and muscle. What I came to do is change the culture around strength and capacity. And that, at the end of the day, is what this is all about.

Dave Asprey (35:08)

You said it so perfectly. I was dancing a little internal jig when you said, oh, if you become stronger, it gives you discernment and clarity. And that's the thing. You'll be better at picking the people you date. They'll be better at picking you because they can actually see you, because you're running at a higher power level. And if you do go on a date with a douchebag accidentally, it won't break you for the next two years. That's why resilience is so important.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (35:37)

And this is a really good point, and I think it's one of the core attributes, and it's discernment and neutrality. And these are things that you can practice. And how do you practice it in every day? What are a handful of tools that you can begin to practice? A little bit of this friction. And these are a handful of very simple tools. Now, I know you don't go to Starbucks, but let's pretend you had a.

Dave Asprey (36:02)

No, I do. They filter their water really well before they put it through that gross coffee. So I get hot water there to brew my own danger beans, just to be clear.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (36:10)

Okay, well, I appreciate that.

Dave Asprey (36:12)

Thank you, Starbucks.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (36:13)

So let's say you need to have your danger coffee and you flip a coin. Heads, you get the coffee. Tails, you don't do that for five days in a row. If you got the. The tails. Heads you get it. Tails you don't. For five days in a row. The first three days, you'd be a nightmare. Right? You would be annoyed. Just a little annoyed. And then if you have two coffees a day, which I drink more coffee than to kill a draft horse, I would be really annoyed. Multiple times a day. And this allows for. If you commit to it. So everyone should try it. Flip a coin. Heads you get it, tails you don't. You could do that with anything that you want to do. You like loud music and nicotine before a workout? Heads, you get it, tails you don't.

Dave Asprey (37:02)

I like that you begin to.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (37:04)

It's just enough. And it's outside of the domain in which we are working. For example, A woman goes on, do they do Tinder or Bumble? What do you do? You go on there.

Dave Asprey (37:17)

Don't know.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (37:17)

Okay, so you go on there. Someone swipes right or left, you don't care. You've already dealt with the annoyance of all these other little things. You begin to build up this annoyance muscle, this friction muscle, and that's just a little. A little thing. And then again, being able to maintain your emotions, if you can talk yourself up into something, having the mental strength and awareness to talk yourself down from something is really important.

Dave Asprey (37:49)

So you're basically creating self rejection with a coin flip.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (37:53)

Yeah, that's a great way to put it.

Dave Asprey (37:54)

Okay, now, for anyone listening, I sell coins that have a head on both sides. They're 20 bucks and you can just buy. No, I'm kidding. I don't.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (38:03)

But no, he doesn't. Get out of here.

Dave Asprey (38:08)

I had a guest on like in the first couple hundred episodes who did rejection therapy where he realized he was a total coward to hear the word no. So he just walked around every day asking people for unreasonable things until he got a no. And then he could celebrate the no and sort of leaned into it. And he tells these stories about going to Burger King and asking for a burger refill. And they're like, okay. And he's like, damn it, I was trying to get a no. You know, he was getting free burgers and all these good things happened. And it. It's kind of the same vibe where you're saying, okay, I'm going to do this and celebrate it, but you're not doing it all the time. When I was younger, I weighed 300 pounds and I went to the gym. It was six days a week, 90 minutes every time, no matter what. Didn't matter if I was sick. I was overtrained. I'm on a low protein, semi vegetarian, low fat, like beans and rice and bran muffin diet. It was horrifying and I never lost a pound, but I remember this gnawing feeling of hunger. And I would just lean and be like, yeah, that's a good thing. So when do these practices you're talking about cross over from teaching resilience to just being kind of self denial?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (39:23)

That's a great question. And I think that really comes down to awareness. At the end of the day, while we may not recognize that we know both our own strengths and our weaknesses, you have to get very clear as to why you are doing something and as you begin to master these things. So, for example, going to the gym, you are not waiting for Motivation anymore. You set a standard, it's not a goal. Your goal is not to go to the gym. Your standard, your new way of life is X, Y and Z. And so you end up putting guardrails where you again take the next right action. I like this idea of self denial and I would say do it until it loses its, its, its grasp. Because ultimately what I think that, you know, we both want for people is to be able to choose. So if you want the choice to be strong and capable, I mean you have to earn it. And if you don't want that, that's perfectly fine. But the way through that is to be less pulled by external environment, external things. So then if you deny yourself the coffee or the danger water, then it's okay.

Dave Asprey (40:47)

That sense of deep just. I've got this in my experience comes from step one, having functioning metabolism. Because if your cells, literally you press the accelerator and your engine can make more power, you don't have this and your body knows it and you feel this sense of unease. And then there's an inner knowing and a framing of the world that says I've got this no matter what, right? And they go together. But which one do you think comes first?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (41:18)

I think that you leverage muscle to drive the mind, which is counterintuitive. People think that they leverage the mind to push forward. But the human nature is interesting, it gets in its own way. And for example, I'll give you an example. Let's say we had a friend and they just had the worst day ever. It was a shit show of a day. They're in a negative downward spiral. And we could say, go meditate your way out of it. And listen, some of our friends, they would, they probably could do it for me. There is absolutely no way I am going to think my way out of that spiral. You dunk me in a cold plunge, you take my physical body, put me in an all out sprint, or hold a wall sit or an air dyne little get up, whatever it is. If you are pushing your body hard enough, even for 20 to 30 seconds, it is impossible if you are doing it correctly, to think of anything else. And so which comes first? I think that you leverage the physical body to move the mind.

Dave Asprey (42:40)

I really like that. It's that brief intentional conscious exposure to pain that I talk about. Biohackers do it with ice. Some people just get a tattoo when they're a little.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (42:52)

Oh no, I just do on the regular. Sign me up.

Dave Asprey (42:58)

Do you get tattoos? Or when you get them, does it regulate you? Because of the pain?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (43:02)

No, no. I complain the whole time. I'm like, oh. They're all traditional Polynesian, by the way.

Dave Asprey (43:08)

Wow.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (43:09)

And so traditional Polynesian is. It tells a story. And so at each moment. So, for example, this is. Each of these is pieces all by the same artist. And this is the tiki healing hand. It's hard for you guys to see. And there's the manta ray, which is wisdom and the support of community. And here's the rub. I don't pick it. The artist picks the vision. And then it goes on your skin.

Dave Asprey (43:37)

Wow. That's cool. I like it. Do you worry about the effect of the inks and things like that? Nope.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (43:46)

Give me more.

Dave Asprey (43:46)

This is a straight up answer.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (43:48)

Give me more. There are things that we have to worry about and there are things that we don't. And that's not one of the things.

Dave Asprey (43:56)

I don't worry either. I mean, I've got some ink too, and it's fine. I recognize eating French fries is a bad idea. In fact, I think French fries for me would do more harm than the tattoo. So I don't eat French fries because they make me feel like crap. But sometimes I eat things that are not perfect and I don't care because it's just not going to move the needle enough because I have resilience. And so the reason I ask that is a lot of listeners will be like, but, but. But it's not perfect. It doesn't have to be perfect. You get to pick your poison if you're highly resilient. And if you pick too much poison when you're highly resilient, you won't be highly resilient. So it's a dance.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (44:32)

I love how you're talking about mitochondrial, right? So mitochondrial function is clearly at the base of what you believe to be powerful and move the needle. And all of the things that we are talking about, whether it is brain function, whether it is moving the needle from a muscular standpoint, it does all rely on the functioning of your mitochondria. There's the esoteric version of thinking about energy, and then there's the energy within the body. And I think that, again, we're collapsing the boat, the mind and the body together, which is important and interesting because, you know, you were telling me about this retreat you did, and, you know, while it would sound as if it was emotional and heavy and it. Maybe it was. Maybe it wasn't for you, but it was very meaningful. In order to go through something like that, you have to on a very Fundamental level, to be able to show up in any capacity for anything, have to have good and resilient mitochondria.

Dave Asprey (45:37)

It's at the core of so much spiritual and emotional and mental stuff that even when I've worked with shamans and gurus and I'm like, well, let's try a few mitochondrial things, they're like, my powers got stronger. Yeah, that's because that's where they come from. So it's, it's something that I would like to bring more into our consciousness in the world that your lens on the world either is at full power or it's not at full power. And I've taken a lot of hits as a virile young man saying that doing squats and having a big booty actually makes women smarter. Am I medically backed by this?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (46:15)

Yes, I was going to say that, yes. So.

Dave Asprey (46:20)

I mean, thank you, Dr. Lyon.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (46:22)

You're welcome. I probably just changed my entire medical career, but let's let me go on record of saying, the stronger you are, the better your metabolism, the better your brain function is going to be. And I worked on. So, you know, when I was doing my fellowship at WashU, I would. One of my projects as a fellow was looking at body composition and brain function. And this is actually where muscle centric medicine was born. Was. You know, I image this woman's brain, she's like in her 50s and she has the brain of an Alzheimer's. And medicine. The establishment of medicine is interesting, is that they continuously repeat the same question and they're wondering why they're not getting a different answer. So for the last 50 plus years, by focusing on obesity and what we have to lose, we never get to the root of the problem, which is muscle. And so this is, this all went back to the statement of bigger booty, something, something, something.

Dave Asprey (47:20)

Bigger booty, bigger brain.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (47:22)

Yes.

Dave Asprey (47:23)

And there, there are studies that back this up. There's one in, in female twins where they're looking at the amount of. In this case it was leg power, which correlates to muscle mass and brain aging 10 years later. And what do you know, the one with bigger muscle doesn't have brain aging. The one with smaller muscle does. And there's other ones in people with low BMI or normal BMI. In other words, non obese people under age 64, 20,000 adults, greater muscle volume associated with total higher brain volume. And it just so happens that your glutes are some of the biggest muscles in the body. So if they're big brain's gonna Be bigger. There I rest my scientific case.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (48:05)

Well, I have a small butt and then I guess I have a small brain. So listen.

Dave Asprey (48:08)

Well, I think you might have some muscles somewhere else because you're, you're in pretty, pretty muscular shape. I don't think you have to worry.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (48:14)

Okay, good.

Dave Asprey (48:15)

My medical opinion as a non doctor.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (48:17)

I, I also think that we have a new biomarker and I think that body fat percentage is going to be in the next five years, body fat percentage is going to be much less important and it's going to be all about intermuscular adipose tissue. So true to medicine's form that we focus on what we can see and the questions that we continuously ask, we have obviously been highly focused on body fat percentage, very little on muscle. Now one step further. I think that body fat percentage is a biomarker. I do not think it is as relevant as intramuscular adipose tissue. And that is the fat within tissue that we are not good at routinely measuring. And I think that more and more data is going to come out that that is what drives insulin resistance and metabolic dysfunction. It's actually the intramuscular adipose tissue. It's not body fat percentage. That is going to be somewhat of an outdated biomarker.

Dave Asprey (49:17)

I already hate body fat percentage because it's so easy to manipulate. If you want lower body fat, drink 2 pounds of water, your percentage of body fat goes down because the total, it's dumb. And if I get on one of those video games where you type in your height and weight, they always draw me as like slightly portly rounded. I'm like, my bone density is off the charts, you jerks. And I have whatever 12 pounds of fat on my entire body when I measure it. So something's wrong because it's about density of muscle, density of bones and cellular hydration. And if you have highly dense muscle tissue, it's not going to be full of fat. How do we measure that?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (49:59)

Not very well. Also we don't measure, you know, DEXA gives an extrapolation of lean mass versus directly measuring muscle mass. MRI is ideal. MRI is typically MRI and ultrasound. And so let me tell you where this all came from. So I was interviewing one of the world leading experts on my show, a doctor, a PhD, MD, MD, PhD. Her name is Melanie Cree. She is the world leading expert on pcos, which is polycystic ovarian symptom. And it is one of the biggest causes of female infertility. And I was sitting there talking to her and I was like, all right, Melanie, you know, gotta tell me, gotta figure this out. What percent body fat is acceptable for those that go into remission and allow fertility? You know, they're, you know, have a bunch of kids and she's like, gabrielle, it's irrelevant. It has nothing to do or it has, you know, in, in true scientific form, it has very little, we're not talking about absolutes. Very little to do with the percent body fat. It was the percent of intermuscular adipose tissue that is what determined outcomes. And I was like, oh my gosh. And I say this because it is a very distinct fat deposit and it's between muscle groups and fibers versus, you know, the visceral fat and subcutaneous body fat. So it was this imat and it's that ectopic fat depot in muscle that seemed to drive disease. And here's one more thing that, you know, we talk about, is that the simple act of exercising, the simple act of emptying the tank, improves imat. So whether your body composition, body fat percentage changes or not, the IMAT is not a reflection of overall adiposity. So it really comes down to thinking about IMAT that contributes to insulin resistance, inflammation, poor muscle function. And I think that that's fascinating. I, you know, I'm not surprised that we have perhaps not been looking at the best markers.

Dave Asprey (52:30)

So I was just looking at my most recent pre nouveau, which is a whole body mri, and they're including way more information about fat in this. And this is one of those things I think is, is life saving for people to do at least once to figure out something's going on. And they tell me about my visceral fat, which is low for an 18 year old. I think it was 826ml was my visceral fat volume, which is basically incredibly small. Yay. And then they tell me about my subcutaneous fat, which is, you know, 12,000, 215 mils, also very, very low. But they don't differentiate between subcutaneous and visceral. How would I know if I have fat in my muscles? Even with something as cutting edge as prenuvo?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (53:17)

I'm hoping that they'll get there. So there. I do believe that it's possible with calculations, but we're not there yet. I don't think that I have a great answer for you. But what I do know is that by simply training and moving, you are improving imat. And that even if IMAT is correlated with total body fat, it is, you know, it's independent. It is a marker of metabolic dysfunction. Ideally, I'd like to see us to be able to do it with MRI different than the Prnovo or tacked onto the Prnovo if they wanted to really bump it up. But that is. We'll get there. And I. And again, I think it's more. I think it's going to prove to be more meaningful than body fat percentage, because think about the alignment. You think about people and you just can't. There was that whole camp of, you know, fit but fat. I don't know how you say this politically correct. You know, we're not talking about people. I'm just saying that there was this cohort where people would say, okay, well, this person has obesity, but all their blood markers are normal. And for the longest time I was like, well, that's not possible. And I was wrong. And then I realized that as you start to see the evidence build about IMAT that these people didn't have metabolic dysregulation, you know, and obviously for a number of reasons. No, there's a whole. Whatever it is, right. This is very difficult to make broad generalizations, but it was their level of physical activity that kept IMAT low, regardless of their percent body fat. And I know your question was, what is it going to take for Pernovo? And it's probably as simple as adding on the additional calculations. It probably depends on the machine and. And a handful of options, but that is the way of the future.

Dave Asprey (55:14)

I'll bet you we can get 90% there just by looking at visceral fat and subcutaneous fat. And they're going to correlate really highly. So for the average person, we can calculate it, but someone just needs to run the data. So can you do that? You're a doctor.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (55:28)

No, I can't. I'm a little tied up. But find people smarter than me to do it. And I'll mention one more thing. GLP1s.

Dave Asprey (55:37)

I was about to ask you that.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (55:38)

Like them or don't, I think that part of their impact is on intramuscular adipose tissue.

Dave Asprey (55:45)

So are people not losing as much muscle on GLP1s as we think? They're just losing muscle fat, so then they lose muscle volume.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (55:51)

It's a great question. I think that there is nothing magical about the quote, weight lost from GLP1s. It's the acceleration. You know, it's so funny. You and I are now in a space which you are much more accustomed to is we might say something or a handful of statements. And it's just like, people go, great. Positive or negative, let's face it, you.

Dave Asprey (56:13)

You can't take my medical license because I'm an unlicensed biohacker, and it's going to be really hard to hurt my feelings at this point. So, like, bring it, and I'll just make fun of your mom. It's easy.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (56:23)

It's so funny. So I was saying that because again, you know, you say these things and then people take it out of context and it's, you know, you and I are talking for an hour, but people take this one little section. It's really ridiculous. So I had made a statement about. So GLP1s. The use at these high at the clinical dosage use can accelerate sarcopenia.

Dave Asprey (56:49)

Oh, yeah. You lose a lot of muscle if you're not doing everything else right, purely.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (56:53)

Based on the percentage. So if sarcopenia is defined at a rate of roughly 4% per decade. 4%. 4% per decade. It's not that much muscle per decade. Cumulatively, it is. You talk about a GLP1 where you could lose 20% of the weight loss in 16 weeks or so in is muscle you have now. Depending on what it is, you lose more muscle during that time than you would in a decade of life.

Dave Asprey (57:35)

It's 30 years of muscle aging.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (57:37)

And don't say that. You will get so much heat. And it's so interesting.

Dave Asprey (57:41)

People can give me heat like it's. It's real. And by the way, I support using GLP1s for weight loss. If you do all the other things that Gabrielle and I talk about, which is eat your goddamn protein, even if you want to throw up and do your squats. And if you do that, maybe support your mitochondria, get some sleep, you'll be fine. You'll lose a bunch of weight, you'll feel better, and then you have to deal with all the extra skin the same way I did. That's what you want. But if you do it the wrong way, then, well, you just made a pharmaceutical company rich and you're going to get old really fast. Did I say that right?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (58:11)

You got it. You nailed it. So, yes, we are entering a new era of trading, and I say this lightly trading obesity for sarcopenic obesity, because the majority of people come off these GLP1s within two years, then they go through this cycle again. And what I predict is gonna happen is that we are going to see an epidemic of sarcopenic obesity and osteoporosis like we've never seen it before. But there are Solutions to that. And they are what we're talking about. Also what you had mentioned, stim, electrical stim to muscle that can cause somewhat of a supraphysiological, muscular targeted contraction. I think those types of things are going to be required. You know, if we are just thinking about not just the now, but the.

Dave Asprey (59:06)

Overall landscape, it's almost like someone should invent a facility where people could go and use all kinds of technology that stimulates muscles and recovery and all that. So that's a good.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (59:16)

And they give you a tattoo on the way out.

Dave Asprey (59:19)

Yeah, I think I would call it upgrade labs if I was going to. Oh, hey. But requires a stimulus of the muscle and you can do it in lots of different ways and it requires recovery. And one of the things that, that I think is most dangerous is something you've talked about a lot. 30 grams of protein per meal max. What's wrong with that?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (59:41)

I don't even know where that came from. Probably the vegans, definitely people believe that you can't absorb more than that. Obviously we absorb all of it and the system for overall muscle health and really contributing the protein to muscle. By the way, we're not using all 30 grams for just muscle, but the skeletal muscle effect probably maxes out at around 50. But you have to understand, you know, there was this paper that had come out and it's like, there's no upper limit. You can have 100 grams of protein. There's no anabolic threshold. But that makes no sense because if that was the case, then we would be laying down tissue. We, we cannot do that.

Dave Asprey (60:31)

Before that paper came out, I just was like, I'm at most going to eat two meals a day. I wrote the first big intermittent fasting book. And if you're doing one meal a day, how do you get 200 grams of protein? I could maybe do it, but then we hear you can't absorb more than 50. So then you're kind of screwed. Are you on a low protein diet because of intermittent fasting? The answer is no. So about three years ago I said, I'm done with this. I'm just doing 100 grams of protein for each meal, two meals a day. If it doesn't work, I'll get bodybuilder farts, which means proteins rotting in your gut. You have ammonia and everyone in the room will know it. And I took some enzymes to make sure it didn't happen. And lo and behold, I got leaner. I didn't get bodybuilder farts and my body absorbed the Protein. It worked just fine. But the type of protein also matters. I wasn't eating tofu. And some proteins are very fast, like whey, and some of them are much longer, like muscle tissue or like casein even, which has its downsides. So just by having high amino acid availability for longer periods of time, it makes sense. And my experience was, wow, this works great. I'm perfectly happy to eat 18 ounces ribeye in every meal. And it just works. So I kind of think that's evidence that it works.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (61:43)

I mean, you are your n of 1. But I will say that we use protein for a lot of things, and especially in the biohacking muscle span community. I'm just gonna go ahead and tack that on there. There you go. Have to recognize that as muscle changes. And again, I don't know if this is an aging phenomenon or it's because we have a large cohort that's sedentary. But things like anabolic resistance, the ability to sense amino acids, the efficiency of that changes, that can be overcome by dosing higher on protein. But the question that we have to recognize and understand is why do we need protein? And we need it because primarily for protein turnover. And this is the rebuild and repair body requires. Around, you know, we go through about 250 grams a day. We're not eating all that, and, you know, the system becomes less efficient.

Dave Asprey (62:46)

Do you worry about MTOR? And in the 2016 timeline, MTOR got to be this, this thing where. Okay, well, protein stimulates this thing that causes muscle tissue, but it could give you cancer and make you old. What's your take on protein and mtor?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (63:02)

Yeah, this is like, this is a rough one. So MTOR is this protein complex that is necessary for stimulating muscle protein synthesis. There are multiple influences. And also there's MTOR in every cell in the body. Brain, your pancreas, your liver. Muscle, however, is exquisitely sensitive to amino acids. The amino acid leucine stimulates mtor, which then goes downstream, hits a cascade of other events, and you get muscle protein synthesis, which over time is believed to then contribute to muscle. It's kind of a proxy for muscle health. There are a few other things that stimulate mtor, like resistance training. So also excess energy. And I will say that MTOR and other tissues are more sensitive to overall energy, like glucose, overall total energy balance, than skeletal muscle. So if you believe that stimulating MTOR is bad through amino acids in muscle, then you would also believe that exercise is bad because that's stimulates mtor, same pathway.

Dave Asprey (64:18)

And you know, it stimulates MTOR even more than amino acids from meat, insulin, carbohydrates. Like, so all these people, I'm not going to eat meat because of mtor and they're eating a bagel. You got more MTOR from the bagel than from the steak. Like, you're doing the math wrong.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (64:36)

Right? I. You know, again, I think that this is a narrative that is. I don't know. I think it's starting to die down.

Dave Asprey (64:43)

I hope so.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (64:44)

But no, I'm not worried about MTOR and aging and MTOR and protein. No, let me say this. I'm more worried about the ink in my tattoos than I am about that.

Dave Asprey (64:58)

Ooh, very well said, Gabrielle. You are a force to be reckoned with in the health world. I love how unapologetic you are about muscle and power and energy and this new spin on Forever Strong in your playbook around the spiritual or the mental or emotional side of resilience. The world needs a lot more highly resilient people right now where you can maybe listen to something you don't agree with without losing your mind and just stay in control of your state. So thank you for all the good work and you're so freaking smart. I just love talking with you. Thank you.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (65:35)

Thank you so much for having me. And I will see you soon. Or I've already seen you and we already had a great time in Australia.

Dave Asprey (65:43)

Oh, absolutely.

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