BONUS: "This is such a cool, badass native lady"

Summary

"This is such a cool, badass native lady" – The Hunter (Bonus Episode)

Podcast: The Hunter
Host: Anaya Echo Hawk
Producer/Writer: Emma Weatherill
Date: November 17, 2025
Main Theme:
A heartfelt and candid bonus episode bringing together Lydia Lerma (the show's central subject), host Anaya Echo Hawk, and producer Emma Weatherill. The discussion offers new insights into Lydia's journey, explores the show’s aftermath, examines the power of community and resilience, and addresses listener questions.

---

Episode Overview

This bonus episode serves as an intimate, reflective conversation between Lydia Lerma and Anaya Echo Hawk, guided by producer Emma Weatherill. They discuss their personal connection, the impact of the podcast, responses from their families, the support of native and local communities, and the ongoing advocacy work inspired by Lydia's experience. Listener questions prompt deeper dives into the practical, cultural, and emotional realities behind the series.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. First Impressions & Bonding Over Shared Experience

• Initial Meeting: Anaya recalls first seeing Lydia at a dinner event, noting her distinct style and powerful presence.
  • Quote: “I just remember thinking like, this is such a cool, badass native lady. Like I just fell in love with her immediately.” – Anaya Echo Hawk [01:28]
• Shared History of Healing: Both women reflect on the deep, almost immediate bond formed over shared histories of trauma and healing.
  • Quote: “We just knew that we shared so much of our history together as well with similar traumas and similar, I guess, healing...We've become different people and we're raising our children differently.” – Lydia Lerma [01:44]
• A Sweet Connection: The two bonded over dessert, leading to profound, honest conversations.
  • Quote: “Our sweet tooth really bonded us together...We were things that I've never talked to anyone about before in my life.” – Anaya Echo Hawk [02:30]

2. Behind The Series: Impact on Family

• Lydia’s Family Reaction: Lydia listened to the podcast with her children, leading to emotional realizations and fostered healing.
  • Quote: “There was a moment...my son...he crawled on my lap, and he just held me...it was just so nice to know that as big as he is...he still needs mama's hugs.” – Lydia Lerma [06:41]
• Processing the Truth: Her adult children learned details they’d been shielded from, and the process was difficult yet cathartic.
• Worldwide Response: Lydia has received messages of support from around the world, including law enforcement professionals.
  • Quote: “I've had people from all over the world reach out to me. I had a British detective reach out to me, and...a woman from New Zealand.” – Lydia Lerma [09:45]

3. Balancing Advocacy and Everyday Life

• Professional Challenges: Lydia held a high-stress job as a supply chain data analyst while navigating trauma.
  • Quote: “I'd sit there and just try not to get caught up in the thoughts...my coworkers...picked up the workload for me and carried me through.” – Lydia Lerma [11:08]
• Importance of Support and Seeking Help: Lydia advocates for seeking both community and medical support in times of crisis.

4. Community, Culture, and Healing

• Tribal Support: Lydia and Anaya discuss the wide and ongoing support from their tribal and intertribal communities.
  • Quote: “We joke that we have indigenous people from the the northernmost parts of Canada to the tip of Argentina that are there to help us and support us.” – Lydia Lerma [13:21]
• Ceremonies and Cultural Rites: Both women talk about upcoming rites of passage for their sons and the importance of community ceremonies like blessings and honoring Native youth.
  • Quote: “It's really building home here where we are.” – Anaya Echo Hawk [15:40]

5. Purpose and Scope of The Lydia Lerma Foundation

• Foundation Work: Lydia explains the mission to empower survivors and families, offering advocacy, support, and healing programs.
  • Quote: “We are there to empower survivors and their families...because that's one of the things that I experienced...I felt so alone.” – Lydia Lerma [18:27]
• Healing Outdoors: The foundation employs equine therapy and nature-based experiences as part of recovery.

6. The Power of Advocacy and Community Responsibility

• Creating Safe Spaces: Anaya reflects on the responsibility communities and individuals have to act as advocates for vulnerable children.
  • Quote: “Every child is entitled to a safe childhood. Every single child...What Lydia does...she is sending a signal that this is not acceptable...” – Anaya Echo Hawk [21:31]
• Stigma and Shame: Open dialogue can break cycles of shame for survivors.
  • Quote: “That was really the first time I was taught that there is no shame in being a survivor of child sexual abuse, and that that's not something you need to hide...” – Anaya Echo Hawk [23:35]

7. On Forgiveness, Family, and Full Circle

• Forgiveness and Reconciliation: Lydia discusses forgiving and remarrying her children’s father before his passing, and the decision’s impact.
  • Quote: “I forgave him so much so that I remarried him...But it was really about us coming full circle and forgiving each other.” – Lydia Lerma [25:14]

8. Affirming One's Instincts

• Following Gut Instincts: Both Lydia and Anaya discuss the lesson of trusting one's intuition and its importance in protecting children.
  • Quote: “When your gut is telling you something, don't dismiss it...that's your intuition telling you something isn't right.” – Lydia Lerma [32:05]
• Death and Homicide Training: Lydia describes additional training she’s taken to better support families of missing and murdered Indigenous relatives and act as a liaison with law enforcement.

9. Lydia’s Broader Work: Law Enforcement and Cold Cases

• Supporting Families: Lydia continues to help families deal with missing persons and cold cases, drawing on her advocacy skills and training.
  • Quote: “I have a fugitive files tab where we try to track fugitives...I see myself as a liaison between the families and law enforcement...” – Lydia Lerma [32:44]
• Becoming the 'Thorn': She emphasizes the importance of persistence—“being the thorn in law enforcement’s side”—to keep cases moving forward.

10. Community Closure and Uplifting Moments

• Support from Allies: Lydia recounts the crucial help of her victim advocate, Kim, and DA Bob, and the warmth of reconnecting outside the legal context.
  • Quote: “If it weren't for them, we wouldn't have gotten the closure that we have. And I'm just forever grateful for the work that they did.” – Lydia Lerma [36:25]
• Lighthearted Reflection: The team shares lighter moments about Kim and Bob's relationship.
• Circle of Healing: Both Lydia and Anaya reflect on the community’s profound role in healing.
  • Quote: “All of those people in that room celebrating, not just the podcast, but, you know, going through this journey and being supportive...that's just the most beautiful part of humanity to think about.” – Anaya Echo Hawk [37:34]
• Enduring Positivity: Lydia’s main takeaway—a message of hope for others facing trauma.
  • Quote: “We're not just this story of trauma, but now we have to provide hope...There is healing that happens.” – Lydia Lerma [38:46]

---

Notable Quotes & Timestamp Highlights

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------------------| | 01:28 | “This is such a cool, badass native lady. Like I just fell in love with her immediately.” | Anaya Echo Hawk | | 06:41 | “There was a moment...my son...he crawled on my lap, and he just held me... as big as he is... he still needs mama's hugs.” | Lydia Lerma | | 10:17 | “Every episode I'm just really relishing. And that's really the most inspiring part, is that these may seem like characters, but these are real people...” | Anaya Echo Hawk | | 11:08 | “My coworkers...picked up the workload for me and carried me through a lot of times...” | Lydia Lerma | | 21:31 | “Every child is entitled to a safe childhood. Every single child.” | Anaya Echo Hawk | | 25:14 | “You are a warrior. You are a true warrior.” | Lydia’s ex-husband (as told by Lydia) | | 32:05 | “When your gut is telling you something, don't dismiss it...You have to listen because that's your intuition telling you something isn't right.” | Lydia Lerma | | 36:25 | “If it weren't for them, we wouldn't have gotten the closure that we have. And I'm just forever grateful...” | Lydia Lerma | | 38:46 | “We're not just this story of trauma, but now we have to provide hope. We have to be role models...” | Lydia Lerma |

---

Key Timestamps

• 01:02 – Start of main content and first impressions
• 03:47 – Introductions and explanation of bonus episode format
• 04:01 – Recap and reflections on Lydia’s journey
• 06:41 – Lydia describes impact of the show on her son and family
• 11:08 – Balancing work life and trauma, importance of support
• 13:21 – Tribal and community support, importance of cultural ties
• 18:27 – Mission and methods of the Lydia Lerma Foundation
• 25:14 – Discussion of forgiveness, Lydia’s remarriage, and full-circle healing
• 28:07 – Audio clip: Lydia’s confrontation in Mexico
• 32:05 – Gut instincts and learning to trust them
• 36:25 – Updates on advocates Kim and Bob, and the importance of community helpers
• 38:46 – Reflections on hope, healing, and moving forward

---

Tone and Language

Warm, honest, and unflinching. The participants mix moments of deep vulnerability with shared humor and practical wisdom, creating a safe space for difficult truths and passionate advocacy.

---

Final Thoughts

This bonus episode provides a heartfelt look behind the series, foregrounding the personal relationships and community that made Lydia’s journey possible. Listeners are left with a message of hope: that healing is achievable, community matters, and we all share a collective responsibility to protect and uplift survivors.

---

For further feedback or to share stories:
Email: [e-mail]

(Note: Adverts and non-content sections have been omitted)

Transcript

[Lydia Lerma]

Toyotathon, Toyota Thon.

[Emma Wetherell]

Toyota Thon is on.

[Lydia Lerma]

Oh, what fun it is to drive a new Toyota today. Hey, Jan from Toyota here reminding you Toyotathon is on. Make your holiday wishes come true with a new Camry, RAV4 Tacoma and more.

[Emma Wetherell]

All right, let's sing it together this time.

[Lydia Lerma]

Toyota Thon Toyota Thon.

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

Toyota Thon is dealer.

[Lydia Lerma]

Inventory may vary.

[BBC Announcer]

Toyota Thon ends January 5th.

[Lydia Lerma]

See your participating dealer for details.

[BBC Announcer]

Toyota, let's go places.

[Lydia Lerma]

When it's time to scale your business, it's time for Shopify. Get everything you need to grow the way you want, like all the way. Stack more sales with the best converting checkout on the planet. Track your cha chings from every channel right in one spot and turn real time reporting into big time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level. Switch to Shopify. Start your free trial today day.

[Emma Wetherell]

BBC.

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

Studios Just to let you know that this episode contains some strong language and deals with sexual abuse. I remember that we were in a municipal building for the city and we were all having dinner together and it was a very casual mixer. I remember seeing Lydia from across the room and thinking, that is the sharpest dressed woman in here. She was wearing one of her beaver fur caps that she has. And I just remember thinking like, this is such a cool, badass native lady. Like I just fell in love with her immediately.

[Lydia Lerma]

And when I met Aniya, I remember just feeling that energy of strength. We just knew that we shared so much of our history together as well with similar traumas and similar, I guess, healing as well, that we've ended the cycles of trauma in our families and we've become different people and we're raising our children differently and we're creating a healthy path for them to, to grow and to move forward. And so we just had this amazing connection and I just absolutely fell in love with her and adored her from the moment I met her. And I, I still do.

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

I would just add that our, our journey really began because we were at a dinner and we were the only two who wanted to stay for dessert. And so our, our sweet tooth really bonded us together. We stayed behind and we had some, some delicious dessert together, some cake. We were things that I've never talked to anyone about before in my life. And I was really grateful that she entered my life and has maintained this role in my life as a mentor.

[Emma Wetherell]

And before today, when was the last time you two saw each other?

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

We got together. We went to a park near the foothills of Horsetooth and we wanted to film some videos Together to help promote the Hunter, the series. And it was funny because we started talking about the series and then we started talking about life and. And I think we sat on the bench and talked for, I don't know how long.

[Emma Wetherell]

Hours.

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

Yeah, that's usually how it goes.

[Lydia Lerma]

And then we ended up picking some berries and we were laughing because we're like, wouldn't this be funny that this is how it ends? We're just eating these wild berries, we know nothing about what they are. And here we are, two native women just eating these wild berries and this could be the end.

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

You were never heard from again.

[Emma Wetherell]

Right from BBC Studios. This is a bonus episode of the Hunter in which we get to catch up with Lydia Lerma and Anaya Echo Hawk. Let's start with a recap of the series.

[Lydia Lerma]

Here I am, this little baby boy's mama and he really, really needs me and I need to be there for him. I mean, she's definitely got that mama.

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

Bear thing going on.

[Lydia Lerma]

For a moment it flashed through my head that I could kill my children's father and I could go to his house and go kill his roommate. They had told me to sit back. I did, and look what happened. He slipped through their fingers. And no, I was done dealing with their bullshit and I was gonna do everything I could to track him down. I need to show the FBI this is it. This is where he's at. You just like to get over there and give him a little ass whooping and hog ton, throw him in the trunk and take him to the authorities. Please help me in finding him. Call 911 if you see him and report him. I think the general tone was that was awesome and good for her.

[BBC Announcer]

At the BBC we go further so you see clearer with a subscription to BBC.com you get unlimited articles and videos ad free podcasts, the BBC News channel streaming live 24. 7 plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries from less than a dollar a week for your first year. Read, watch and listen to trusted independent journalism and storytelling. It all starts with a subscription to BBC.com find out [e-mail] unlimited.

[Emma Wetherell]

So I should probably explain who I am because everyone's going to recognise your two voices, Anaya and Lydia, from listening to the series. So I am Emma Wetherell. I'm the producer and the writer of the series, which means that I got to spend lots of time working with you both, which was incredible. And spent lots of time recording on location with you and endless conversations. And yet I still have lots of questions and so do some of our Listeners. And so that's why we're together again today.

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

Wonderful.

[Lydia Lerma]

I'm excited. Yeah.

[Emma Wetherell]

I've got the question that I'm most nervous to ask, and I just wonder whether I should just ask it first and get it out of the way, and then I can ask you other questions.

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

You gotta eat the frog. You gotta do the hardest task first.

[Emma Wetherell]

Yep, I'm gonna eat the frog. So, Lydia, kind of the most important question that I want to ask is whether or not your son has listened to the series and if so, what he thought of it.

[Lydia Lerma]

My son is a teenager, so he doesn't communicate a lot other than just having a teenage attitude. But he was really, I think, pleased with it, and he was really impressed with it. There was a moment during the podcast that was really difficult for me to hear. And you have to realize my son is, like, 6 foot 2 now. And he came and he crawled on my lap, and he just held me, and he wanted me to hold him, too. And it was just so nice to know that as big as he is and as grown as he is, he still needs mama's hugs, and he still needs that comfort. And he was also comforting me because, yeah, there were moments when I'm listening to it, and I'm. I'm reliving and remembering exactly how it felt in the moment. And he saw that, and he came and he crawled on my lap as big as he is, and I held him, and we just held each other, and it was really, really nice. And so I'm grateful for it, and I'm grateful for the awareness that it continues to raise, and I'm grateful that people could see that it ended on a really happy, positive note.

[Emma Wetherell]

And what about you, Lydia? Were you a bit nervous about listening to it?

[Lydia Lerma]

I knew that I would have to prepare a support system when I was going to listen to it, and my children all decided that we wanted to listen to it together as a family. And I didn't realize how difficult it would be for my children because my middle daughter, she's 21 now, and there were things that she didn't realize her brother had gone through in the process. She didn't realize that he went through the SANE exam. She didn't realize the forensic interview. And so here she was just crying after the episode that talked about that, and she was just like, oh, my gosh, Mom, I didn't realize he went through that. And I had to remind her that she was only 12 years old when all of this was happening, so it wouldn't have been appropriate for her dad and I to share that with her. We wouldn't go to our children and say, oh, hey, by the way, your brother's going through this sexual assault nurse exam, or your brother's going through a forensic interview. It just wasn't appropriate. We had to shield them through the process. So I'm glad that I had my children with me and that we went through it. And they actually kind of laughed at the part about their handsome dad because they knew their dad would laugh at that part. They were sad that he wasn't there with us, but they thought that their dad would be proud of the series. And I felt really good walking away, having listened to all of it. I felt that you did an amazing job editing everything and putting it together, because there were a few recordings where I was like, oh, my gosh, I don't know how that's gonna sound. And I was just so impressed and blown away. And all of the feedback that I've received, I've had people from all over the world reach out to me. I had a British detective reach out to me, and she had shared that she listened to the podcast and then a woman from New Zealand. I wish you could see my inboxes from all my social media, because I'm just like, oh, my gosh, how much of this do I send to Emma? Because I just don't want to flood your inbox. But it's all been very positive.

[Emma Wetherell]

I love it when you send me messages, so please carry on sending me messages. Anaya, what did you think about it?

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

I'm so proud of this project and every episode I'm just really relishing. And that's really the most inspiring part, is that these may seem like characters, but these are real people, and they're people who experience these things and live these things and are going out in the world today and still doing amazing things. So it's just. It's an incredible story.

[Emma Wetherell]

We got a few questions from listeners and one question, Lydia, which I kind of wish that we'd actually covered a bit in the series, and I think we just didn't have time to do. But they were asking, you know, throughout all this period, you were working. You know, you had a job, you had, as you say, you were a single mom. You didn't have the ability just to sort of not work all day. And so somebody was asking you what your job was and how was that sort of balancing the kind of every day whilst also going through this, you know, very difficult period.

[Lydia Lerma]

I was actually a supply chain Data analyst at a high tech corporation. And here I found myself trying to maintain my job and also be a mother and keep my family together and keep us some sense of normalcy. And I was really fortunate that I had this amazing team that I worked with. I worked with three other people and we sat together in a podcast and they all just picked up my workload on the days that I just sat and stared at my monitor and told myself over and over, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry. And I'd sit there and just try not to get caught up in the thoughts of everything that was happening. And they really, this was something that we didn't really cover in the podcast, but my coworkers, they just really picked up the workload for me and carried me through a lot of times, and they really stepped up and covered for me. It wasn't easy. One of the things that I do encourage was to get help, and if that means medical help as well. I did get on some medication in November. November 1st I started and then by mid January I was off of it. But it helped kind of get me through that initial period of finding out what happened to my son and then trying to find my feet and just keep moving forward. And so getting help was really crucial in just my ability to function, to get out of bed, to just get up and get to work every day. And then just having the support of my family, my children, and knowing that I had to step up, I had to be mom, I had to fight this fight.

[Emma Wetherell]

It's the hard thing, is it, that you just have the day to day that just still continues when all these crazy things were happening. Another thing that we heard about in the podcast was how helpful your tribal brothers and sisters were. You know, whether or not that was Janita the hand trembler who helped, you know, Ivan who helped when you went down to Mexico and a listener asked about whether or not there's still help to this day, whether or not it's been helpful for the past decade to have your tribal brothers and sisters.

[Lydia Lerma]

Yes, absolutely. They have been very, very helpful. My tribal leadership has been amazing. They've always been there to support me and to help in whatever way needed. I go down for some of our powwows and they're just always there. You know, we joke that we have indigenous people from the the northernmost parts of Canada to the tip of Argentina that are there to help us and support us. So I've gotten support not only from my tribe, but from other tribes as well.

[Emma Wetherell]

And is Your medicine man still in contact with your son? Do they still have that relationship?

[Lydia Lerma]

Actually, we're talking about my son's, I guess, man ceremony as he transitions into manhood. So we've been talking about that. So we just have to schedule the time to get my boy down there. And yes, he'll be performing that ceremony for him.

[Emma Wetherell]

So what will that involve?

[Lydia Lerma]

I don't really know. My tribe is really good about keeping men separate from the women. So when we do ceremony, we don't typically involve men and women together. The women have our own ceremonies and then the men have their own. So I really don't know. I just have begged him to keep him safe.

[Emma Wetherell]

Oh, that's so intriguing. And you're Lipan Apache, correct?

[Lydia Lerma]

Yeah.

[Emma Wetherell]

And Anayo, tell me about some of the work that you do on Colorado with some of the different communities.

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

Yeah, I've been really privileged to meet a great community in Northern Colorado of kind of the urban Indians, as you would call it. So I'm currently a development officer with First Nations Development Institute. We're a national nonprofit, but we have an office located in Longmont. And so it has been really a great privilege being able to work in those networks and get to know our amazing community partners and the works they're doing across Indian country and then also specifically in the state of Colorado. Before I became the development officer, I was also working in the Northern Colorado community, helping them build up the First Peoples Community Center. So this center is really a revolutionary and inspiring project I'm excited about. It's almost a physical manifestation of what Lydia is talking about where we have this tribal community and we have tribal brothers and sisters and those who aren't from our tribe, and we come together and support each other. So I know recently we had a back to school blessing and honoring for our Native youth in the community. And it's just little moments like that that we get to share with each other. Even though we're miles away from where our reservation is or wherever we call home, it's really building home here where we are.

[Emma Wetherell]

So what's a bussing and honoring ceremony?

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

Yeah. So education is really a priority for Native communities and encouraging our youth to follow whatever endeavor they're interested in as far as schooling. So that looks all types of ways, but really what the ceremony is is honoring that you're continuing your journey as a learner. That's really not something that ever stops for Native people, but it's really making our youth feel good and feel special that they are continuing their education. It usually Involves a see their blessing from an el. And it's our community coming together and saying, we are here, and we see you and we're supporting you.

[Emma Wetherell]

I remember when we went up to the Rocky Mountains and Lydia was showing you how she hunts and talking through that. And I remember when we were recording it, you were saying, oh, it'd be so great to bring my son and to get him to learn how to hunt. And I was just wondering whether or not that's happened, whether or not you've been out, and also kind of why that's important.

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

Yeah. So part of our tradition in the Yakima culture is that part of manhood and womanhood is signaling that you're ready to give back to the community. And so that is honored by a woman's first gathering of roots and berries. And then the men, it's their first hunt. And so I was so relieved when Lydia volunteered to kind of step in and help my son with that. He's almost of age, so he's not quite there yet. But when he is of age, I have full faith that Lydia is going to be able to steward him through that journey and keep him safe and really have him understand that connection. Because in our tribe, we consider plants our sisters, and we consider animals our brothers. So there's a really sacred connection. It's not just a matter of going out and hunting. It's a spiritual connection you feel to that animal, that life you're taking. So I am really grateful that Lydia is going to be able to be a part of that journey with him.

[Emma Wetherell]

And, Lydia, tell me more about another role that you have, which I'm sure takes up a lot of your time, which is your foundation. How would you describe what the Lydia Lerma foundation is and what it does?

[Lydia Lerma]

We are there to empower survivors and their families in the process of dealing with sexual assault and sexual abuse, because that's one of the things that I experienced when I was going through this, is that I felt so alone. I felt like nobody understood my pain and nobody. And truthfully, I think people are afraid to have those conversations. And I didn't want any other family to feel that way when they're going through this process. And so when my story went public in 2018, that's when people really started to reach out to me, and that's when I knew, okay, this is the path that I'm on. I didn't necessarily choose it, but here I am, and I can be there for these families, and I can help them not feel alone. I can Help them advocate for their children, and I can help support them as well, because I needed the support.

[Emma Wetherell]

I'd love to hear whether people have been in touch who've listened to the podcast.

[Lydia Lerma]

Yes, I actually had quite a few people, probably about a dozen people, reach out to me since the podcast was released, and I have a couple new clients because of it. What I do tell people is, unfortunately, there's no shortage of work in this area that this happens. It's really, really common. So what we do is I tell people I'm there for families from the moment they find out that this has happened to their child to the moment the case is either adjudicated or there's some kind of closure, and then into the healing process. And that's where we go into the outdoor healing adventures. And I share what I think was really helpful for my family in our healing process, and that was our exposure to the outdoors, equine therapy, spending time on horseback, being up in the Rocky Mountains, on the Continental Divide, because the Continental Divide actually has a really significant history for us, because I'm Athabascan, so all of the southwestern tribes, we actually originate from what is now Canada, and we migrated south along the Continental Divide. And so when I'm up there, it's such an amazing experience because you can almost hear your ancestors telling their stories. You can feel their presence. And it's just like you're on top of the world, and then you're even higher because you're on the back of a horse or a mule. And so it's just. It's such an amazing experience. And I know that that was such significant part of healing for my son and for myself. And we share that with families that have been through similar situations. And I'm sure we'll get Anaya and her family up there, too.

[Emma Wetherell]

Anaya, we've had quite a lot of comments on people who have themselves experienced child abuse or their children have experienced abuse. And a lot of the comments say, you know, I wish I had Lydia fighting for me. I wish I'd had someone like Lydia fighting for me. How does that make you feel?

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

Yeah, thank you for asking that question, because that is a huge reason why I was so honored to be part of this project. Every child is entitled to a safe childhood. Every single child. And in the world we live in, we know that doesn't happen. And sexual abuse happens in too many childhoods, and it shouldn't exist in any. As somebody who is healing from my own journey through that, I felt the same thing when I First met Lydia, I thought, I wish I had someone in my corner like her, someone who was willing to advocate for me, someone who was a safe space to talk about this, and someone who made me feel like a survivor and not a victim. I wish I had her every step of the way in my own childhood. And I resonate with what other people are saying. And I sat with that for a long time and kind of asked myself, what does that mean? And what I've come to is that it is your responsibility to be Lydia in everyone's life. It is your responsibility to be an advocate. It is your responsibility to recognize when something is unsafe for a child. You are supposed to be that safe space. And if everybody on this planet did that, we live in a world where this is no longer acceptable. What Lydia does when she advocates for other people and when she supports them, she is sending a signal that this is not acceptable, and this is not something we're going to tolerate. And it is the first step in addressing such a massive issue is being able to talk about it. As I said in the podcast, I reached the age of 26 when I met Lydia, and that was really the first time I was taught that there is no shame in being a survivor of child sexual abuse, and that that's not something you need to hide, and it's not something that is reflective of who you are. And if we're able to share that message out just with our loved ones and especially with our youth, making sure they understand this is something we talk about, this is something we don't hide, this is something we're addressing as a society, and it's not acceptable. So I am immensely grateful for Lydia for really showcasing what it means to be an advocate in this world. And it's something that we all have to pick up. It's just. It's a necessity, it's vital to keep as many children safe as possible. So I hope people feel empowered by knowing you have that capability, too, for others.

[Emma Wetherell]

You're listening to a bonus episode of the Hunter. Lydia, there was a question from another listener who was talking about the children's father, who we call Jason in the series. And they were wondering what he thought about when you went down to Mexico to hunt down Van der Waal, your son's abuser, and how you felt towards him. And, you know, did you feel like you forgave him?

[Lydia Lerma]

When I went to Mexico, he was actually very, very supportive. And I remember I was sending him the pictures in real time as I was sending them to the FBI as well, and he couldn't believe it. He was just so amazed. And I remember he sent me back a picture of a woman warrior.

[Emma Wetherell]

A warrior? Like a fighter?

[Lydia Lerma]

Yeah. And he said, you are a warrior. You are a true warrior. And I. I felt really good about that because he was so supportive. And I think the emotional toll that it had on him, it really kind of. He just. He couldn't do anything with it. He was just really depressed, and it was really challenging for him. So I had to pick up and move forward with everything. And he was supportive of me, Very supportive. And I absolutely did forgive him. And I was thinking about this. You know, I forgave him so much so that I remarried him. So when he was battling his health issues, we would kind of joke about, half jokingly about getting remarried if it became terminal. And at one point, he was in so much pain, and he had begged me to take him to my home state of Oregon, because Oregon has had the death with dignity since the 1980s. And I didn't have the heart to tell him that. We actually approved that here in Colorado a few years ago. But I was like, no, I can't do that. I cannot take you back to Oregon. Our son would never forgive you if you gave up. But we would joke that, well, if we got married again, that would just speed up the process, and it put you in the grave a lot faster. And he's like, yeah, for sure. And we joked about it. But then when it came down to it, we did get remarried on March 23rd of July, 2023, and he ended up dying on the 29th. So we were married for six days. But we did that so that our children didn't have to make those final decisions for him. We. They just didn't have the emotional capacity to do it. And he wanted to make sure that I could make those final medical and hospice decisions for him and then all the funeral arrangements. But it was really about us coming full circle and forgiving each other. And I tell people he didn't just choose me once, he chose me twice. And so we were married again, and I am his widow. And it was a decision that we made for our family, and I'm really pleased and wouldn't change it for anything. And I'm glad that I could be there for him in his last days and his last moment and his last breath.

[Emma Wetherell]

You mentioned there about when you were in Mexico, and this is the moment in the parking lot where you see Vanderwaal. I said, that's when you were kind of sending Messages back to Jason saying, you know, he's here. I can see him, and the photos and stuff. I've actually got a little bit of audio from that part.

[Lydia Lerma]

I see that there are children with him.

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

There are two boys sitting on the trunk of Vanderwaal's vehicle. They're hanging their legs over the back bumper, idly kicking them up and down.

[Lydia Lerma]

And I'm just shaking, and I'm so angry. And there's part of me that just wants to fly out of that vehicle and wrap my hands around his neck and grab that bastard and fucking kill him.

[Emma Wetherell]

Do you ever sort of think back to that moment and think, okay, I could have made a very different choice here at this moment. You know, you were so tempted to open those car doors, and. Yeah. Do you ever sort of think about what could have been if you'd chosen a different path?

[Lydia Lerma]

Absolutely do think about that moment. And just hearing that, it just raised all the hairs on my arms, because I remember the moment of seeing him, and I saw the children. And I know that on social media, some of the comments were like, she was there in the parking lot, and she saw him, and there were kids there, and she didn't do anything.

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

And.

[Lydia Lerma]

And yes, there was a part of me that I wish I could have done something, but there was also the Mexican federales were in that parking lot. So if I had gotten out and done something, I would have been arrested easily. But, yeah, I think about it all the time. If something had been different, if he had not been picked up by the FBI and the federal authorities, and if I would have had to go back down. Absolutely. I thought it through. I planned it out. I had it all planned out. I had a tribal brother in Juarez who would have gotten us over the border. I had my tribal brother who would have gotten us from Guatemala to Juarez. We studied the maps and we studied all the back roads. We studied the military checkpoints and the law enforcement checkpoints. We knew the whole route from Guatemoc to Juan Juarez. And that's the challenge would have been getting him over the border. But I had my tribal brother who had been a former street kid, and he knew all the prostitutes, he knew all the drug dealers, he knew all these people that could have easily gotten us over the border. He's now an academic and has a PhD and, you know, he went back to college, and he's doing amazingly well. But he grew up on the streets. And so these tribal brothers were willing to commit crimes for me because they don't want pedophiles in their country just as much as we don't want them in ours. But fortunately, the legal process worked. The FBI worked with Mexican authorities, and they were able to get him arrested and extradited. And I think they had him back on US Soil within five hours of arresting him.

[Emma Wetherell]

I remember you saying that you had a bad feeling about Vanderbilt right from when you first met him. And I was wondering how important you think it is to follow that gut instinct. Is that something that you try and do or.

[Lydia Lerma]

Absolutely. One of the things that I encourage families and parents to do now, and especially people in a divorced situation or where the two parents aren't together anymore, is each parent has to listen to the other parent. If they raise a flag and they say something's wrong, you need to listen to them. And one of the challenges that I had was my children's father didn't listen to me. He dismissed my concerns. They that's a lesson learned, and that's a lesson that I share with everybody else, that we need to trust our former partner. We need to trust them when they say something isn't right, something's uncomfortable, no matter how difficult the situation is.

[Emma Wetherell]

Anaya, do you ever follow your gut?

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

I'm practicing is a practice that you have to do every single day. It's the journey of learning how to trust your gut even when you're facing adversity. So it's something I've been learning slowly.

[Lydia Lerma]

I did a training on death and homicide investigations with the public agency Training Commission or council. And one of the things that they shared was that, and I want to say 96% of the police officers they train, they tell them to trust your instinct. And they found that 96% of them, when they trust their gut, they are correct. So that applies to all of us. So when your gut is telling you something, don't dismiss it. Don't just push it away or ignore it. You have to listen to that because that's your intuition telling you something isn't right.

[Emma Wetherell]

So why did you do that training?

[Lydia Lerma]

I actually did that training for some of the work that I do for the missing and murdered indigenous relatives and people I helped. Because of the success that I had in tracking down Vanderwal, I've been called to help on some cases of missing people. And I went up to Montana. I've worked on a couple cases up there. I have a fugitive files tab where we try to track fugitives. And so I took that training to help so that I can continue to help the families that I work with. And I tell people I see myself as a liaison between the families and law enforcement, because a lot of times these families, they don't know what questions to ask. They don't know what their rights are. And that's something that's really important. And I tell them, you have every right to look at police reports, you have every right to look at autopsies. You have every right to look at all of the information that's available and you can ask for it. But a lot of times these families just don't have that knowledge, and they don't have the emotional capacity to advocate for themselves. So I step in and I call up the police department on behalf of the family, and I'll ask them, hey, this is what I need. And we want to look into this. And there's a lot of cold cases out there. And so I've been called in on a few of them. And I. I help where I can. And I figured the training was gonna help me be a better advocate.

[Emma Wetherell]

Lydia, I felt like I knew everything about you, and now it's like this whole other thing that you do where you just help loads more people in lots of other ways. It's kind of incredible. And have there been solutions? Have people been able to find missing people?

[Lydia Lerma]

We have not necessarily found any closure to some of the cases, but we've definitely. One of the things that I encourage the families to do is to be the thorn in law enforcement side, keep the case in the public. Ey, because that's the most important thing. That's when somebody's going to step up and say, oh, I remember that situation. I remember this because somebody will eventually come forward. Someone will have the details, and you have to continue to fight for that person because they obviously have no voice anymore. And we need to have closure. I can't imagine what these mothers and parents are going through that don't have that closure.

[Emma Wetherell]

I feel like, you know a little bit about being the thorn in law enforcement side.

[Lydia Lerma]

I tell people too, you know, I have to maintain a really good relationship with law enforcement because I'm not going to be the one that makes the arrest. They're the ones that make the arrest. But I'm going to give them all the information that they need.

[Emma Wetherell]

And one of the people who really helps you, Lydia, was Kim, Kim Jordan, your victim advocate. And I was actually going to play another little clip, which was a slightly lighter moment from the series, which is when we're talking about Kim and Bob, your DA and about how they started dating each other. I Just thought she was hot, so.

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

She's.

[Emma Wetherell]

I'm not even follow up with that.

[Lydia Lerma]

So I'm just gonna leave.

[Emma Wetherell]

I'm not gonna touch that.

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

I'm gonna leave that there.

[Emma Wetherell]

You get.

[Lydia Lerma]

Do what you want with that. No, I think she's right. We've seen a lot of probably the worst side of humanity that you can, and we both came through it laughing together. Yeah, well, I like to take credit for that, but it wasn't because of me or my case.

[Emma Wetherell]

I think you can take credit for it. I understand that you bumped into Bob Percfield and Kim at a country concert recently, so. Yeah. Tell me how they are and how they're doing.

[Lydia Lerma]

Oh, they're doing great. It was really great to see them, and they're just amazing people. And it was good for my son to see him as well. And I've got this great picture of my boy and Bob, and it was just really good to see him. And, you know, if it weren't for them, we wouldn't have gotten the closure that we have. And I'm just forever grateful for the work that they did. And they're just. They're really amazing people. I mean, he's coached Little league baseball. He's really active in the community. He's not just a lawyer, but, you know, he's a father as well. And he is a great role model, too. And I was just so happy that my son could see him and get a picture with him and thank him for the work that he had done.

[Emma Wetherell]

And had they listened to the series?

[Lydia Lerma]

Yes, they absolutely did. They binged it, like, within a day. And it was cute because Bob was giving Kim a bad time about her sing songy voice. He said he never realized how her voice fluctuated when she was being interviewed. And so they were kind of joking about that.

[Emma Wetherell]

Final question for you, Anaya. Is there anything that we didn't cover in the series that you wish that we had?

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

It was definitely touched on and addressed in the series, but I'm not sure anything could properly encapsulate the community that was around Lydia and her family. I had the privilege of meeting some of them at the launch party that we went to, and I remember talking about it with my partner on the way home, and we realized that was really sacred space. All of those people in that room celebrating, not just the podcast, but, you know, going through this journey and being supportive and being loving and being ready to help with healing. And during my speech at the podcast party, I thanked everyone for being there for Lydia, for her family for her son. That's not an easy thing to do. We already have so much going on in our lives, but all of these amazing people took time out of their day continuously to be there. And to me, that's just the most beautiful part of humanity to think about. And it really left me with a really positive feeling.

[Emma Wetherell]

And what about you, Lydia? Is there anything that you wish that we'd covered in the series that we didn't?

[Lydia Lerma]

I don't think so. I think, like I said, you did an amazing job. I was so impressed with it. I loved the way that it ended on a positive note, too. For me, that was so important that people realize healing does happen. I tell my son all the time, we're not just this story of trauma, but now we have to provide hope. We have to be role models for other people. We have to show them that there is healing and that as horrible as it feels when you're in it and as much as you literally want to die, there's healing that happens. And I am so proud to show my boy to people and say, look, look at healthy. He's happy. He's an amazing young man and they're going to be okay.

[Emma Wetherell]

Lydia and Nya, thank you so much for joining us.

[Anaya Echo Hawk]

Thank you. It is a privilege to work on this. It really is.

[Lydia Lerma]

All right, thank you.

[Emma Wetherell]

Bye. You've been listening to a bonus episode of The Hunter from BBC Studios. Please email thehunterbc.com with your thoughts, comments and stories that you think that we should be investigating. Thank you for listening.

[BBC Announcer]

At the BBC, we go further so you see clearer. Through frontline reporting, global stories and local insights, we bring you closer to to the world's news as it happens. And it starts with a subscription to BBC.com, giving you unlimited articles and videos ad free podcasts, the BBC News channel streaming live 24. 7 plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries. Subscribe to trusted independent journalism and storytelling from the BBC. Find out [e-mail] join.