The Predator: "Death would be too easy"

Summary

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The Hunter: Episode 4 – The Predator: "Death would be too easy"

Date: October 27, 2025
Host: Anaya Echo Hawk
Produced by: BBC Studios

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Episode Overview

This gripping episode follows Lydia Lerma on a high-stakes international manhunt in search of her son's abuser, Vanderwaal. Refusing to wait for justice, Lydia’s pursuit takes her from the mountains of Colorado to the streets of Mexico, enlisting the support of her tribal community and testing her own moral boundaries. The story powerfully explores survival, the fierce determination of a mother’s love, and the complexity of seeking justice outside the law.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Parallels Between Hunting and the Manhunt

• Opening in the Rockies: The episode begins with Lydia, Russ (her boyfriend), and friends hunting elk in the snow. Their methodical tracking and ambush mirror Lydia’s approach to tracking Vanderwaal.
  • Lydia (on her spiritual approach):

    "I'm in a constant meditative state. So I'm in, like, this state of constant prayer." (03:47)

  • She prays to Yusn, the Apache creator, for guidance, linking her cultural practices with her personal quest for justice.

2. Lydia’s Arrival in Chihuahua, Mexico

• Lydia receives urgent messages from the FBI advising her not to take matters into her own hands:
  • FBI Special Agent Jones:

    "I know your desire to get this guy, but do not go to Cuatmoc... There is nothing positive you can accomplish which is not already in the process of being accomplished." (05:56)

  • The FBI stresses the risk:

    "My guys in Mexico are guests, so they have no jurisdiction and will not be able to provide assistance if something goes sideways." (06:08)

• Despite hesitation, Lydia feels compelled to act:
  • Lydia:

    “I really wanted to honor their wishes, but there was that part of me that I was like, no... We're going to do this.” (06:36)

3. Assembling the Team

• Lydia contacts Ivan Alexander De Leon, a Lipan Apache, who travels 10 hours to assist. Ivan’s loyalty to his tribal network is unwavering:
  • Ivan:

    "We are a hunting society. We've been hunters since hundreds of years. What we find us is our courage and strength to survive..." (10:13)

• The group gathers in a hotel bar to form a plan, debating various risky strategies for confronting and apprehending Vanderwaal: kidnapping, bribery, and the risks of dealing with corrupt or criminal local police.

4. Considering Extrajudicial Actions

• The team discusses bribery and even violence as options:
  • Lydia (on bribery):

    “I said what do you think it's going to be to bribe the president of Guatemal to get law enforcement to make the arrest? And I go, what do you think, like, $5,000?” (13:52)

  • Ivan’s friend chillingly warns:

    “With $5,000, he'd be buried and never found again.” (14:24)

• Lydia faces the moral gravity of these options:
  • Lydia:

    “I absolutely contemplated it... You'd never see or hear of him again.” (14:46)

  • But ultimately rejects violence:

    “Death would be too easy. Because I want this man to wake up every morning for the rest of his life and look in that mirror and know that the world knows he's a pedophile.” (15:02)

5. Crafting a Hunting Strategy

• Lydia decides to lure Vanderwaal using the “bait” of a vehicle-for-sale listing associated with him. Ivan will pretend to be a potential buyer and set up a meeting in a public place for visual confirmation and photo evidence.
  • Lydia:

    “We just wanted to get him into a public location to where we could visually see him and get images.” (16:46)

  • They choose a grocery store parking lot, allowing for backup plans if things go wrong.

6. Spiritual and Intuitive Guidance

• Lydia recalls a prophetic session with Janita Kennedy, a Navajo hand trembler. Janita’s spiritual vision includes powerful symbols: Manitoba (MB), a red roof, a barbed wire fence, a white vehicle, and a fox in an underground tunnel—ultimately interpreted as indicators of Vanderwaal’s hiding place among Mennonites in the “Manitoba Colony” in Mexico.
  • Janita Kennedy:

    “I saw a barbed wired fence, and I knew the other side of that fence was Mexico... and then I saw MB… and a fox in an underground tunnel.” (19:10 – 21:24)

  • Lydia (upon seeing the sign):

    “And I saw that sign. I just started searching, sobbing. And I said to my boyfriend, I was like, oh, my gosh, look, there it is. Manitoba. She was right. It's right here.” (22:57)

7. The Confrontation and Emotional Toll

• Just before confronting Vanderwaal, Lydia is shocked to see local police seated nearby—highlighting the constant sense of danger and distrust in local authorities.
• The group executes their plan in the parking lot, with Ivan approaching and Lydia hiding to take photos for law enforcement:
  • Lydia:

    “I immediately tried to hide myself because I didn't want him to see me. And I got down on the back seat floorboard.” (25:44)

• Upon seeing Vanderwaal:
  • Lydia:

    “I was so angry... what an arrogant bastard to just be parading around with no consequence... I just dropped my head into my hands and... was crying, I was so upset.” (26:44)

• Lydia quickly sends photos and evidence to Agent Jones.
  • Lydia:

    “And as I'm getting pictures, I'm sending them to Agent Jones... You see it all? I have the evidence and I'm handing it to them on a silver platter.” (27:23)

8. The Stakes Escalate: Children at Risk

• The sight of children with Vanderwaal triggers Lydia’s deepest rage:
  • Lydia:

    “And there's part of me that just wants to fly out of that vehicle and wrap my hands around his neck and grab that bastard and fucking kill him.” (28:49)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On spiritual hunting:
  "I'm in a constant meditative state. So I'm in, like, this state of constant prayer.” — Lydia (03:47)
• On FBI warnings:
  “There are very real risks associated with you going though. My guys in Mexico are guests, so they have no jurisdiction...” — FBI Special Agent Jones (06:08)
• The price of extrajudicial justice:
  “With $5,000, he'd be buried and never found again.” — Ivan’s friend (14:24)
• On rejecting revenge:
  “Death was definitely way too easy.” — Lydia (15:02)
• On frustration and determination:
  “I feel like found this motherfucker and he's going down. And I'm thinking, I fucking did it. I did it. And he's... He's getting busted...” — Lydia (27:23)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:50–04:27: Opening hunt in the Rockies and Lydia’s spiritual perspective
• 05:26–07:09: Lydia arrives in Mexico; FBI warning and personal resolve
• 09:12–13:52: Forming the team and discussing legal/illegal options
• 14:24–15:33: The moral dilemma of extrajudicial actions
• 16:46–17:13: Setting the trap: the vehicle meeting plan
• 18:03–22:40: Janita Kennedy’s spiritual vision and its significance
• 23:18–28:49: Tense confrontation, photos taken, discovery of children
• 29:16–end: Lydia’s chase continues

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Tone and Atmosphere

Rich with tension and emotion, this episode immerses the listener in Lydia’s world—a blend of calculated resolve and raw, maternal rage. The narrative honors the cultural strengths and spiritual resources Lydia draws upon, while also conceding the ever-present risks and moral choices that shape her journey. The dialogue is unflinching, at times raw and explicit, matching the seriousness of the real-world events.

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Conclusion

Episode 4 is a powerful, emotionally charged chapter in the broader story of Lydia Lerma’s fight for justice. It delves into the razor-thin line between justice and revenge, the power of community support—both pragmatic and spiritual—and the relentless will of a mother driven to protect her family and others from harm. The episode ends on a cliffhanger as Lydia decides to follow Vanderwaal, her pursuit now more desperate than ever after realizing he is accompanied by children.

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Transcript

[Ray Winstone]

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

[Podcast Narrator]

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head.

[Ray Winstone]

Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.

[Janita Kennedy]

BBC Studios.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Just to let you know that this episode contains some strong language and deals with sexual abuse.

[Lydia]

You'd think that they would shovel the walkways, right?

[Anaya Echohawk]

It's a cold day with half a foot of snow covering the base of the Rocky Mountains. The sun reflects off the snow, making everything brighter.

[Russ]

So you'll see my tracks going off the trail right here. That'll take you right to that moose track.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia and her boyfriend Russ have brought me out here so I can see how they hunt for big game. We're surrounded by these mountains that are older than anything I can comprehend. It makes me remember how I'm just a small part of this world. Lydia points something out to me on the ground.

[Lydia]

You can definitely see tracks down there. I bet that's moose down there.

[Anaya Echohawk]

As a hunter, looking at a map will only get you so far. At some point, you need to go to where you think your prey might be sheltering and seek them out.

[Lydia]

Yeah.

[Ivan's Friend]

And you can see how they. They kind of do the drag because of the depth of the snow. You can always tell with the elk and the size of the elk by those. The distance of the dewclaw on that rear side of the elk.

[Anaya Echohawk]

The tracks go into the opening of a clump of conifers.

[Ivan's Friend]

I wouldn't stand out in the middle like this because all of those animals are going to see me. I'd always stay along the tree line and come up around and into the trees.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia finds a good spot for us to survey from. And then instead of following the elk she's been tracking, she uses a whistle to try to lure them to her.

[Russ]

He's right there.

[Lydia]

So look.

[Russ]

Look right through the trees. Just right there.

[Lydia]

You see?

[Anaya Echohawk]

Okay.

[Lydia]

And look at his winter coat.

[Anaya Echohawk]

He's a fluffy boy.

[Lydia]

Yeah. See where his shoulder is right there?

[Ivan's Friend]

That's where you're gonna want to do.

[Lydia]

That shot is right around there, right behind their shoulder.

[Ivan's Friend]

Because one it stops them. And too, it's right at the vitals. We have to be really, really quiet. I'm going to drop down on a knee just So I can position myself and get sturdy with my rifle. I'm lifting up my rifle, getting into my scope, getting it on my crosshairs, looking at the vitals. I want a broadside shot. Calculating the distance, probably about 200 yards from here. The adrenaline, you get the shakes.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia looks straight into the eyes of her prey and tries to mesmerize it. For her, this is a ceremonial process.

[Lydia]

I'm in a constant meditative state. So I'm in, like, this state of constant prayer.

[Anaya Echohawk]

She prays to Yusn, the supreme God for Apaches. He's the creator of the universe. The mountains, Lydia and the elk. She's hunting.

[Lydia]

And I'm. I'm asking Yusan to guide me on my hunt. Plug your ear.

[Ivan's Friend]

I'm going to take the shot.

[Anaya Echohawk]

From BBC Studios, this is the Hunter with me, Anaya echo hawk Episode 4 the Predator it's the evening of Thursday, January 25, 2018, and Lydia and her boyfriend Russ have just landed in Chihuahua. They've come to Mexico on a tip off that Vanderwaal is hiding out here. As Lydia walks down the Jetway, she switches her phone back on.

[Lydia]

As soon as I get off the plane, my phone is just message, message, message, text, voicemail, all this stuff.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Before she got in on the flight, she emailed FBI Special Agent Jones to tell him that she was taking matters into her own hands. She's going to try and find Vandewaal herself. The Special Agent has responded.

[Lydia]

I'm listening to these messages, and I'm like, wow. Here I have Special Agent Jones, Special Agent Perez leaving me messages.

[FBI Special Agent Jones]

I know your desire to get this guy, but do not go to cuatmoc. There is nothing positive you can accomplish which is not already in the process of being accomplished.

[Lydia]

Lydia, please don't go down there. Lydia, please.

[FBI Special Agent Jones]

You know, there are very real risks associated with you going though. My guys in Mexico are guests, so they have no jurisdiction and will not be able to provide assistance if something goes sideways.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Should.

[FBI Special Agent Jones]

Should you decide to act independently.

[Lydia]

We don't want him to see you and have him run again. And, you know, all these messages, like, you know, we're working on it, we're doing what we can.

[FBI Special Agent Jones]

You've done a great job of giving us information, so let's keep that going. But anything additional could potentially be harmful.

[Lydia]

And, you know, there was actually a moment where I considered, okay, you know, I got the FBI asking me not to do this, and I really wanted to honor their wishes, but there was that part of me that I was like, no, they need to see that here he was. And they needed to get a move on it. I'm here. We're going to do this.

[Anaya Echohawk]

But how is she going to do this? Lydia doesn't have a plan and she can't use the tools she normally does when hunting. She's come to Mexico unarmed.

[Lydia]

I couldn't take a firearm into Mexico. I had considered taking a bow, but I was like, they're not going to allow me to bring any weapons into this country.

[Anaya Echohawk]

But she does have one weapon at her disposal. Contacts. She knows people in Mexico who can help her. Tribal brothers and sisters that she's met at Apache gatherings. Before she'd gotten on the flight, she'd sent a message to her tribal brother, Ivan Alexander De Leon, who lives in northern Mexico. Ivan's known Lydia for a few years.

[Ivan Alexander De Leon]

She's a nice lady. She takes care of her family and, and she like a good family person and a defender for rights, you know.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Like Lydia, Ivan is lip and Apache. He's tall with broad shoulders and likes to wear his hair swept back in a headband with a feather in it.

[Ivan Alexander De Leon]

She told me beforehand that she had this issue with this guy Vander Wolf, that this guy had done some bad things to her son.

[Anaya Echohawk]

For Ivan, being Lipan Apache means you support other members of the community. So when Ivan gets a message from Lidia saying she's heading to Mexico, I.

[Ivan Alexander De Leon]

Immediately consider helping her.

[Anaya Echohawk]

So Ivan dropped everything and had gotten on the bus for a 10 hour ride from his hometown to meet Lydia in Chihuahua. Together, they'll come up with a plan.

[Ray Winstone]

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

[Podcast Narrator]

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head.

[Ray Winstone]

Safe enough for you. Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.

[Anaya Echohawk]

In Chihuahua, Lydia and Russ pick up a rental car and head over to their hotel to meet Ivan.

[Ivan Alexander De Leon]

I arrive at the hotel lobby with.

[Lydia]

Some friends and he shows up and he has one of the Chiricahua Apaches with him. And I, I get them a room and everything and we're sitting in the hotel lobby area and we actually move over to like the bar, restaurant and we're talking and we're planning everything out.

[Anaya Echohawk]

How are they going to find out if the man they've been tipped off about is actually Vanderwaal. And if it is Vanderwaal, what should they do when they find him? The four of them, Lydia, Russ, Ivan and his friends, sit around a table in the hotel bar and go through their options. Ivan's not worried. He thinks that between them, they have three Apaches. It will be easy to find Vanderwaal.

[Ivan Alexander De Leon]

We are a hunting society. We've been hunters since hundreds of years. What we find us is our courage and strength to survive and to be resilient and able to stand any kind of trouble to reach that goal of finding something, some animal or some person.

[Anaya Echohawk]

But what to do with Vanderwaal if they find him? Ivan advises that they can't just go up to a police officer and tell them to arrest Vanderwaal. There's no guarantee that law enforcement would help them.

[Ivan Alexander De Leon]

The police, they are bribed really easily. And also the police are criminals. So, I mean, yeah, they have good jobs. They work for the mafia and they work for the police.

[Anaya Echohawk]

But Lydia does just about trust the American police. Between the four of them, could they tie him up, bundle Vanderwaal into their car, drive him to the border, and hand him over to the US Authorities? But they have a problem. If they were in the US a licensed bounty hunter could round him up and bring him to the authorities. But this practice is illegal in Mexico, and it wouldn't be easy to smuggle him from Chihuahua to the US Border. It's a five hour drive, and they're likely to be stopped on the way.

[Lydia]

There's potential for the military checkpoints. There's potential for law enforcement checkpoints. They have checkpoints everywhere.

[Anaya Echohawk]

If they get stopped at a checkpoint with a guy tied up on their backseat, then they would all be arrested. And Lydia really doesn't want to be put in prison away from her kids. But then she has a thought. She has another tribal brother who has lots of contacts in Mexico.

[Lydia]

He told me that he was a child of the streets. He had grown up on the streets. And you know, the prostitutes, the drug dealers, you know, the street people, those were his people. And somehow he ended up going to university and getting educated and creating a really good life for himself. But he still had those connections, the.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Kind of connections that can help you navigate police checkpoints and smuggle someone to the border. So from the hotel bar, Lydia calls up this tribal brother. She puts him on speakerphone so everyone can hear.

[Lydia]

And I specifically asked him, if I need help and getting over the border, will you get us over the border. He's like, I will. I'll help you. And so I had full confidence in him because he was constantly coming and going over the border, just all the time. And so, yes, he was my contact to be the one to make it happen.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia hangs up the phone. Okay, so kidnapping Vanderwaal could be an option. She looks around the table.

[Russ]

I'm there to protect, be the voice of reason.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Her boyfriend Russ isn't impressed with this plan.

[Russ]

I'm the guy that, no, we're not gonna zip tie him and throw him in the back of the trunk and do anything with him. I mean, I would be the guy that was errant to the side of caution.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Is there anything else they can do? Lydia refills their glasses while she racks her brain through her Apache contacts. She knows someone who knows the president of this area, the equivalent of the local mayor. She wonders if she could pay him to have Vanderwaal arrested. Lydia looks down to a bag she has stashed under the table. Inside is US$20,000.

[Lydia]

Because I thought if I have to bribe someone, if I need bail money, whatever I might need to use it for. And I remember we're sitting there at this table, and I said, what do you think it's going to be to bribe the president of Guatemal to get law enforcement to make the arrest? And I go, what do you think, like, $5,000?

[Anaya Echohawk]

Ivan's friend turns to Lydia. He's been pretty quiet throughout the discussions, but now he looks her in the.

[Lydia]

Eye and he says, oh, shit. With $5,000, he'd be buried and never found again. And I'm like, wow, that inexpensively, huh?

[Anaya Echohawk]

Just $5,000 to have Vanderwaal killed and never asked about again. He would be completely removed from her life, her son's life, and the lives of all other kids.

[Lydia]

I absolutely contemplated it, like, wow, it only cost me five grand. I can do that. You'd never see or hear of him again.

[Anaya Echohawk]

It's a tempting offer, but this time it's Ivan that looks to Lydia and.

[Lydia]

He says, lydia, you don't want that on your hands. And I said, you're correct. I said death would be too easy. Because I want this man to wake up every morning for the rest of his life and look in that mirror and know that the world knows he's a pedophile. So death was definitely way too easy.

[Anaya Echohawk]

So they've ruled out murder and kidnap, but they still don't have a plan. So Lydia turns to what she knows best, hunting just like she'd call an elk to her when she's out on a hunt. She decides to try to lure this man to them. She'll set a trap, and as soon as she gets eyes on her prey, she'll know if they've got the right man. Lydia's been messaging the tipster for weeks now, jotting down useful intel. The man they think is Vanderwaal is driving around town in an old vehicle. There's a sign in the window saying it's available for sale with a phone number. Maybe she could contact this man and pretend to be interested in buying it and see if they can get him to agree to meet with them from Mexico. Lydia messages the tipster, asking for a description of the vehicle. The tipster provides the information so that they can pretend they just seen it around town. Ivan calls the person they think is Vanderwaal, and they arrange a time and place to meet so that Ivan can supposedly check out the vehicle while really checking out the man.

[Lydia]

We just wanted to get him into a public location to where we could visually see him and get images.

[Anaya Echohawk]

But they also want a location that if things go wrong, they be able to move to their backup plan.

[Lydia]

If I had to kidnap him, that was something that I had considered. So we wanted him in a place that he would be easily accessible and wouldn't have a whole lot of place to go.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Ivan arranges to meet the guy tomorrow in a grocery store parking lot. The trap is set. Just like the elk in the mountains, they've called Vanderwaal to them. That is if it is Vanderwaal. Lydia has come all this way on a tip off from someone who could have got it wrong. Or worse, someone playing games with her. The next morning, Lydia, Russ, and Ivan head two hours west to Guatemak, the city that Vanderwaal is supposedly hiding in. And driving into the city, Lydia has the most bizarre experience.

[Lydia]

I'm seeing the high wall, the red roof. I'm seeing all the signs.

[Anaya Echohawk]

She's instantly transported back to a few months earlier, to a conversation with her friend Janita.

[Janita Kennedy]

I saw a barbed wired fence, and I knew the other side of that fence was Mexico.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Janita Kennedy works in the media. She's a mom of four kids, an entrepreneur, and a Navajo hand trembler. Navajo, or the Dine, are a neighbor tribe to the Apaches in the Southwest.

[Janita Kennedy]

I have medicine people on both sides of my mom and dad, so that runs deep. Some were hand tramplers, some were medicine men. You help people, you know, answering the call but we hold it as a. As a gift.

[Anaya Echohawk]

The hand trembler's gift is that they can diagnose ailments, treating them with Navajo medicine and prayer.

[Janita Kennedy]

It helps a person where they're unbalanced. And in Lydia's situation, it was her emotional state, mental state, spiritual state that was unbalanced.

[Anaya Echohawk]

And hand tremblers can sense things that other people can't. Lydia had connected with Janita at Standing Rock, the monumental encampment that brought tribes together to protest about the Dakota Access oil pipeline. And Janita had stayed in touch over social media.

[Janita Kennedy]

I'm seeing Lydia's posts on Facebook about what happened to her son, and I can relate a lot to that because, you know, everything that has to do with sexual abuse, molestation, any. Everything I went through myself. And so that really tugged at my heart, and I understood, and I decided to call her and say, lydia, you know, I. My gift came out, and I would like to help you.

[Lydia]

And she asked me if I would be willing to accept her help in locating Vanderwaal. And I said, absolutely.

[Anaya Echohawk]

At her house in North Dakota, Janita prepares herself. She sits on her floor, listens to music, and burns some embers.

[Janita Kennedy]

I close my eyes, and I started hearing the music, and sure enough, my hands started to shake and tremble. I started, you know, tuning into her and the situation and everything, you know, started channeling or getting in touch with what she needed to know.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Janita says that as she tunes into her gift, she starts seeing things in her mind's eye.

[Janita Kennedy]

I was in a bird's eye view, and I saw a road, and I started seeing rest areas, and I saw a barbed wired fence, and I knew the other side of that fence was Mexico. But before we could go through, turned me around, and we shot back up towards Canada. And then I saw MB And I was like, oh, is this Manitoba?

[Anaya Echohawk]

Janita said she saw the initials MB which are the initials of the province of Manitoba in Canada. Next, she sees a figure that could be Vanderwaal and a white vehicle near a red roof.

[Janita Kennedy]

I felt like I was sitting in the car with him, and I looked at him. And then after that, it showed me a fox in an underground tunnel. And so, for me, I kind of interpret that as he's just hiding underground. He's under the radar. He's, you know, fox, like.

[Anaya Echohawk]

After the trance, like, state has finished, Janita calls Lydia to tell her what she saw.

[Lydia]

And I remember I'm writing everything down. I'm writing the red roof and the white truck and the high fence and Then the letters mb and she's telling me all these details, and I'm writing everything down.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia tried to do some online research to make sense of the visions. When she first received this information, she thought that Vandewaal must be up in Manitoba in Canada. But now, as she's driving into Guatemala, everything is falling into place.

[Lydia]

I'm seeing the high wall, the red roof, all of these connections that had been made by the hand trembler. And I'm overwhelmed with that feeling of, oh, my gosh, she was right. Here it is. And all of a sudden, Manitoba in huge letters.

[Anaya Echohawk]

They pass a sign that reads, manitoba Colony of Mennonite Christians in Guatemala. Lydia knows Vanderwaal grew up as a Mennonite, so maybe Genita's vision wasn't about Manitoba in Canada, but was leading her to the Manitoba Mennonites right here in Mexico.

[Lydia]

And I saw that sign. I just started searching, sobbing. And I said to my boyfriend, I was like, oh, my gosh, look, there it is. Manitoba. She was right. It's right here. And I'm shaking and I'm crying. But I knew we were on the right track, that this was it.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Russ, Ivan, and Lydia park their rental car. They still have a couple of hours to kill until the time they've arranged to meet the man who could be Vanderwaal. They head to a restaurant complex and get some soda pop and something to eat. The three of them grab a table, and then another group comes in and takes the seats next to them.

[Lydia]

I'm sitting in this restaurant booth, and right next to us is a table.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Of the federales, the Mexican law enforcement.

[Russ]

And it was just kind of a weird feeling, like, hey, we know there's a pedophile we could go catch, like, right now. You guys on board with doing something like that? This afternoon?

[Anaya Echohawk]

But Russ doesn't trust the cops down here.

[Russ]

I mean, it's a whole different world. Who are they employed by, really? Or who's bankrolling those guys? So you're out of your element. We're a couple people that don't belong there, and we're on our own.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Over a tense lunch, they go over the plan one last time. They'll drive to the parking lot where they've arranged to meet this man. Ivan, who Vanderwaal doesn't know, will take a look at his vehicle. Lydia and Russ, who Vanderwaal would recognize, will hide in the back of the car and take photos of him. They pay their check, take one last glance at the feather ollies, and head to their car. It's on the way to the meeting spot. Lydia starts to worry that Vanderwaal might be heading over at the same time and will recognize Lydia through the car window.

[Lydia]

It's a rental car. They don't have tinted windows. You know, there's no way that I can really hide my identity, but at.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Least with her brown colorings she blends in. However, her blue eyed boyfriend Russ sticks out like a sore thumb.

[Russ]

I remember Lydia yelling at me because I was peeking up too much out of the window. You know, she thought, oh, we were gonna blow her cover. And I'm like, he doesn't have a frickin clue we're down there. Lydia. I do this for freaking living. I sneak around and hide behind stuff and whatever. Anyway, emotions are way the heck up up here.

[Anaya Echohawk]

They make it to the parking lot and pull into an empty bay near the exit so they can make a quick getaway if things go wrong. Ivan gets out and leans against the vehicle. Lydia crouches down inside.

[Lydia]

I immediately tried to hide myself because I didn't want him to see me. And I got down on the back seat floorboard.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia's head is almost touching the floor of the car. She can smell that plastic tang of the over cleaned rental. She'd much rather be up in the Rocky Mountains breathing fresh air and crouching behind a tree for cover. She hears a vehicle pulling in into a space across from them. A door opens. Someone gets out. She lifts her head slowly and she sees a man wearing a long sleeved T shirt and the black baseball hat. Medium height, slightly overweight. He turns towards her and she catches a glimpse of his face. Lydia has no doubt it's Vanderwaal.

[Lydia]

And I was so angry and I thought what an arrogant bastard to just be parading around with no consequence. And there were just so many different emotions. I was so angry and I just dropped my head into my hands and I just started slipping. I was crying, I was so upset.

[Anaya Echohawk]

She manages to compose herself. Finally she has her prey in her sights. She takes aim and snaps a few photos of Vanderwaal.

[Lydia]

And as I'm getting pictures, I'm sending them to Agent Jones just in real time. And I get the street signs so that they know exactly which location he's at. You see it all? I have the evidence and I'm handing it to them on a silver platter. Here it is. And I'm just sobbing and I'm sobbing because I'm angry, I'm frustrated, I'm relieved. Like here he is I feel like found this motherfucker and he's going down. And I'm thinking, I fucking did it. I did it. And he's. He's getting busted and this is going to happen because I know where he's at.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Russ is trying to keep to his role of Mr. Sensible, but every inch of his body wants to take action.

[Russ]

You just like to get over there and give him a little ass whooping and hog to him, throw him in the trunk and take him to the authorities. I mean, that ain't gonna happen. That's not practical, right?

[Anaya Echohawk]

But then Lydia sees something that changes everything.

[Lydia]

I see that there are children with him.

[Anaya Echohawk]

There are two boys sitting on the trunk of Vanderwaal's vehicle. They're hanging their legs over the back bumper, idly kicking them up and down.

[Lydia]

And I'm just shaking, and I'm so angry. And there's part of me that just wants to fly out of that vehicle and wrap my hands around his neck and grab that bastard and fucking kill him.

[Anaya Echohawk]

But before Lydia can wrench open the car door, Vanderwaal gets back in his vehicle. The meeting is over.

[Lydia]

He's driving off, and he has the children with him.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Without thinking, Lydia jumps over into the front seat, gets behind the wheel and puts her foot on the gas. She's going to follow Vanderwaal. This was episode four of the Hunter. The presenter is me, Anaya Echohawk. The producer is Emma Wetherill, sound design by Melvin Rickaby, production management by Juliet Harvey. And the executive producer is Joe Kent. You can contact the team on thehunterbc.com if you've been affected by any of the issues raised in this podcast. Details of organizations that can help are available in the episode. Description. The Hunter is funded and made by BBC Studios, a commercial company that is wholly owned by the BBC.

[Ray Winstone]

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

[Podcast Narrator]

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are gonna come out of your head.

[Ray Winstone]

Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes. Wherever you get your podcast.