The Revelation: "I could kill my children's father": 1

Summary

The Hunter – Episode 1: "The Revelation: I could kill my children's father"

Podcast: The Hunter
Host: Anaya Echo Hawk
Date: July 8, 2025
Production: BBC Studios
Theme: An unflinching, emotional true crime story of a mother’s relentless fight for justice after her son is sexually abused.

---

Episode Overview

The first episode of The Hunter introduces Lydia Lerma, a devoted mother whose life is turned upside down after learning her son was sexually abused. This episode unfolds the harrowing revelation, the rush of rage and heartbreak, and Lydia’s determination to pursue justice. Through intimate narration and real-time storytelling, host Anaya Echohawk and Lydia herself guide listeners from the family’s everyday life in Fort Collins, Colorado, to the moment their world shatters—setting the stage for an international manhunt.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Moment Everything Changes

• Opening Scene: Lydia is awakened by her barking dog Nacho (00:50). She groggily opens the door to find her ex-husband Jason, pale and shaken.

• Jason’s Disclosure: Jason arrives at Lydia’s house very early, visibly upset and struggling to share traumatic news. He confesses that something terrible has happened (02:23).

• Lydia's Internal Turmoil: Upon hearing that their son has been abused, Lydia is immediately overtaken by rage and thoughts of violent retribution—reflecting the primal, "mama bear" response.

  “For a moment it flashed through my head that I could kill my children's father and I could go to his house and go kill his roommate.”
  — Lydia Lerma (02:52)

• Decision Point: Lydia describes explicitly envisioning retrieving her firearm but ultimately recognizes her responsibility to her children, deciding against vengeance (03:08).

  “I can't kill anybody. I can't spend the rest of my life in prison. I want to be a grandma someday, and I'm not going to abandon my children by making that mistake.”
  — Lydia Lerma (20:09)

---

2. Flashback: Building a Life in Fort Collins

• Meeting Jason: Lydia recounts her chance encounter and whirlwind romance with Jason (06:35–10:27), including flirtatious exchanges and the sweetness of new beginnings.

  • Memorable details include the meet-cute at a traffic light, Lydia’s nephew playing wingman, and her internal monologue about dating as a single mom.

• Marriage and Growing Family: The podcast shares moments of joy—marriage, pregnancy announcements (11:00), and the birth of their son, which Lydia describes as healing and transformative.

  “I just had this beautiful baby boy. It was like this huge depression was lifted off my shoulders.”
  — Lydia Lerma (12:40)

---

3. Trouble On The Horizon

• Cracks in the Foundation: Lydia and Jason’s marriage becomes strained, leading to arguments, separation, and eventual divorce. Jason moves out and into a bi-level house, which becomes significant later (14:22–15:41).

• Introduction of Andrew Vanderwaal: After the separation, Jason befriends and eventually rooms with Andrew Vanderwaal, a younger, troubled veteran. Lydia voices deep suspicion about Vanderwaal, documenting her concerns—but Jason dismisses them as paranoia (17:00–17:44).

  “I probably have a notebook an inch thick of text messages where I was expressing my concern... the children's father would dismiss me, and he would dismiss my concerns.”
  — Lydia Lerma (17:00)

---

4. Signs Something is Wrong

• Behavioral Shifts: Lydia’s son, now shuttling between households, begins exhibiting violent outbursts and troubling behavior (18:28–19:44). Lydia feels guilty and at a loss, rationalizing his actions as an effect of divorce.

---

5. The Day of Revelation (Revisited)

• Lydia narrates the morning of October 28, 2016, in detail. Jason appears at her door and delivers the devastating news: Vanderwaal has been sexually abusing their son (20:09).
• Lydia’s cascading thoughts, her urge for violence, and subsequent clarity—“I have to be here for my children”—are recounted with raw intensity.

---

6. Immediate Response: Law Enforcement Steps In

• Police Involvement: Lydia insists Jason call the police. Detective Brenton Dayton is assigned to the case (21:42).

• Evidence Collection: The authorities quickly respond, collecting clothing for DNA evidence and guiding the family through necessary steps for a criminal investigation (22:55).

• Hospital Visit: Lydia faces the excruciating decision to allow her son to undergo a sexual assault examination, and regrets not being fully transparent with him at that time (23:56).

  “I made the mistake of not being honest with my son...I should have been 100% transparent.”
  — Lydia Lerma (23:56)

---

7. Waiting for Justice

• The Forensic Interview Delay: The family must wait through a long weekend before a child forensic interviewer is available (25:17). Meanwhile, Jason goes into hiding to avoid contact with Vanderwaal.
• Cub Scout Uniform for Bravery: Lydia’s son wears his Cub Scout uniform to the forensic interview for courage—a touching moment about the power of small rituals in trauma (26:35).
• Lydia's Regret: She reflects on feeling dismissed by Jason regarding her concerns about Vanderwaal (27:19).

---

8. Crucial Evidence and Progress

• The Interview’s Outcome: After a long, anxious wait, Detective Dayton delivers the news: they have enough evidence to proceed with the case (28:53).
• Pretext Call: Jason agrees to participate in a recorded phone call with Vanderwaal, to try and elicit a confession—showing resolve despite anguish (29:18–31:14).
  • Jason's sense of responsibility and guilt is palpable; he’s determined to do his part.
• Waiting for Vanderwaal: After tense attempts to contact Vanderwaal, he finally returns Jason’s call (31:27–32:36), setting up the next chapter in the hunt for justice.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Lydia on rage and restraint:
  “I was so angry. I was fucking livid.” (02:44)
  “I could kill my children's father and I could go to his house and go kill his roommate.” (02:52)
• Lydia's maternal determination:
  “As much as I wanted to dig a hole and crawl in it and die, I knew I couldn't. And I made the choice to stand and fight.” (33:29)
• Detective Dayton on Lydia:
  “Lydia definitely walks the walk, and I admire her for that.” (33:48)
• Jason’s reflection:
  “Every child who is abused, I think, deserves someone like Lydia to fight for them. I mean, she's definitely got that mama bear thing going on.” (33:39)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:50: Lydia wakes up to find Jason at her door
• 02:23: Jason finally delivers the devastating news
• 03:08: Lydia contemplates vengeance but chooses her children
• 06:35–10:27: How Lydia and Jason met and fell in love
• 11:00: Birth of their son and its impact on Lydia
• 14:22: Family routines and the onset of marital issues
• 17:00: First mention and suspicions about Andrew Vanderwaal
• 19:44: Lydia grapples with her son’s behavioral changes
• 20:09: The morning of the revelation, Lydia’s thoughts and rage
• 21:42–22:55: Police response and evidence collection
• 23:56: Hospital visit and Lydia’s regret
• 25:17–26:35: The wait for forensic interview; Cub Scout uniform moment
• 28:53: Police have enough to proceed with charges
• 29:18–31:14: Pretext call setup and Jason’s commitment
• 31:27–32:36: Vanderwaal finally calls Jason back—cliffhanger for next episode
• 33:29–34:22: Reflections, resolve, and previews of the fight ahead

---

Tone & Style

The episode is raw, deeply emotional, and unvarnished—capturing both the adrenaline of tragedy and the warmth of family bonds. Lydia’s candidness, Anaya’s sensitive narration, and Detective Dayton’s professionalism create a sense of urgent empathy and relentless pursuit for justice. The conversational and reflexive structure embeds listeners deeply in the family’s conflict and the beginnings of Lydia’s transformation into a true-life hunter for justice.

---

Conclusion / Set Up for Next Episode

The episode concludes with Lydia choosing to "stand and fight" for her son’s justice and lays the groundwork for the coming pursuit of Andrew Vanderwaal—foreshadowed as a high-stakes, international manhunt. Lydia’s battle is just beginning, driven by the ferocity of a mother’s love.

---

Transcript

[Anaya Echohawk]

Ready to uncover the rest of the story. Episodes two through six of the Hunter are waiting for you right now. Exclusively on Wonder. Don't miss a moment and finish the story. Now start your free trial of Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify Now. BBC Studios Just to let you know that this series contains very strong language and deals with sexual abuse. It's a Friday morning and Lydia Lerma is sleeping in. As a mom of three, it's not often she gets a chance to stay in bed. She'd had difficulty getting to sleep and she'd taken a sedative, so this morning she's out of it. But through the deep fog of sleep, she hears a noise.

[Lydia Lerma]

I had a little dog, a little and I remember he was just barking like crazy. Little Nacho woke me up.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Slowly, Lydia's brain clicks into gear. The only reason Little Nacho would be barking like this is if there's someone at the door.

[Lydia Lerma]

I ended up getting up out of bed and I was half dazed because I'm. I'm on Ambien and I went and followed the dog down and he's just yelping and barking the whole way down.

[Anaya Echohawk]

She crosses the landing, passing her kids school awards proudly on display, the pumpkins ready for Halloween, her son's ice hockey stick propped up against the wall.

[Lydia Lerma]

And I'm walking down the stairs thinking who is coming to my house this early in the morning? It was like seven something in the morning and I. I open the front.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

Door.

[Lydia Lerma]

And I see the kid's father standing at the bottom step. Here.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia's ex husband is looking as attractive as always, tall and athletic with icy blue eyes, but his face is as white as a sheet.

[Lydia Lerma]

And I'm standing right here and I lean up against the wall and he's standing there.

[Anaya Echohawk]

A gnawing dread grows in her stomach. She doesn't know why he's here, but whatever has brought him to her doorstep this morning, it can't be good.

[Lydia Lerma]

And he looks at me and I can just see the tears in his eyes.

[Anaya Echohawk]

He says he's got something terrible to tell her. He's shaking and rambling, but Lydia pieces together what he's saying. At first she doesn't want to believe it. It's the thing she's most afraid.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

I was so angry. I was fucking livid.

[Anaya Echohawk]

One thought floats to the front of her mind.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

For a moment it flashed through my head that I could kill my children's father and I could go to his house and go kill his roommate.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia's Deadly serious. Her mind starts racing.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

I'm a certified firearms instructor. I have my concealed carry firearm sitting on the top of my gun cabinet, which was outside of my bedroom door. And I totally envisioned myself walking back up the stairs, grabbing that firearm, shooting him right there and then going to his house and shooting his roommate.

[Anaya Echohawk]

She can feel her world tilting on its head. She will never go back to who she was before this moment. What has he said to make Lydia want to kill him? From BBC Studios, this is the Hunter with me. Anaya Echo Hawk Episode 1 the revelation.

[Lydia Lerma]

Excuse my dirty truck and I probably have like bags and stuff back there, Anaya, just for grocery shopping, so just shove them under the seat or something.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia's petite, only five foot three, so she has to jump up into her pickup truck. She tucks her long brown hair behind her ear before pulling out of her driveway. She's going to show me where she met her ex husband here in Fort Collins, Colorado.

[Lydia Lerma]

So this is midtown now. We have Whole Foods and Natural Grocers in this area.

[Anaya Echohawk]

It's a really great variety of, you know, people who have lived here for decades and newcomers.

[Lydia Lerma]

It's such a great community to raise families and to live in.

[Anaya Echohawk]

The city is home to Colorado State University. So it has that lively college town atmosphere with restaurants and concerts. But the thing that really makes Fort Collins in your face gorgeous is that each time you look out to the west, you see the Rocky Mountains.

[Lydia Lerma]

So that is the Horsetooth area. This is a really great area for hunting and for resources. So you have like wax currants and there's buffalo berries. There's all kinds of food here. It's huge for mule deer and elk.

[Anaya Echohawk]

When I am, you know, sitting over at the park close to the base of the foothills and I'm watching my kids, I get to turn and look at it. It's really surreal.

[Lydia Lerma]

It makes you really good with direction because you always know the mountains are to the west.

[Jason (Children's Father)]

So you're like, okay, where are the mountains? Okay, which direction am I going in?

[Anaya Echohawk]

When Lydia starts giggling, there's just such warmth that radiates from her. I first met her at a mixer here in Fort Collins a couple years back. We hit it off straight away and we've got a lot in common. But we'll get into that later. She has these cute freckles and her face lights up when she laughs. Just this really warm and open person.

[Lydia Lerma]

So we're heading back into the south side of Fort Collins and I'll tell you the story of how it I met the Children's father.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia tells me she met her Children's dad in June 2002. For the series, we're going to call him Jason, but that's not his real name. It was a sunny day, and Lydia was driving up the main street in Fort Collins. Lydia's sister had just gotten into town.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

And she had one of those PT Cruiser cars.

[Jason (Children's Father)]

And I thought, oh, this is kind of a cool car. I want to drive it. So I grabbed my nephew, and my.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

Nephew at the time was 19. And I think, gosh, I must have been. I was 31. And I said, come on, I'm gonna take you shopping. Cause I wanted to get him new clothes, and I spoiled my nephews.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia grew up in the Pacific Northwest, but moved to Fort Collins a couple years back.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

And as we're driving, I see this white Tacoma pickup next to me, and I can see the guy, and he keeps leaning forward and taking a look at me, and he's Dr. And then I see him finally reach over to his passenger, and he totally pushes his.

[Jason (Children's Father)]

Head out of the way so he can see me. So I look at my nephew and I tell him, I go, hey. I go, your auntie still has it going on for old lady. I go, this guy's totally checking me out. So my nephew gets in on it, and he looks over to the driver.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia stops at a red light, and the white pickup truck pulls up alongside her car.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

So my nephew rolls my window down, and I'm like, oh, crap, I'm committed.

[Jason (Children's Father)]

I have to say something. So I just look over, and all I can think of to say is, this is my nephew. And I had to make it clear that this is not my boyfriend.

[Anaya Echohawk]

The man in the pickup truck, Jason, hollers back to Lydia.

[Jason (Children's Father)]

He's like, I'm not interested in your nephew. He goes, you are absolutely beautiful. And I'm like, thanks. And the light turned green, so we.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

Start moving again, and he was like, hey, take down my number.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia's nephew is loving this and writes down the number for his auntie. The car and the pickup truck pull up alongside each other again, and Lydia steals another look at the driver.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

And I remember at the next intersection, he lifted up his baseball cap and he kind of brushes his hair back. And I thought, oh, good, he has a full head of hair.

[Jason (Children's Father)]

And as we're driving, he says to me, you're going to make me wreck. And I told him, you're going to make me wreck.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

And I had to turn off to the mall.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia doesn't wreck her car. But she does pull away from the truck, and the handsome driver disappears into the distance. And now she has his number. She really doesn't know what to do with it. You see, she's newly divorced and has a young daughter. She's a single mom, not looking for anything serious.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

But he was hot. He was really.

[Jason (Children's Father)]

He looked great.

[Anaya Echohawk]

She can't help herself. A few weeks later, Lydia summons up enough courage and phones Jason.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

So I call him up, and I'm just like, hey, what are you doing?

[Anaya Echohawk]

Jason tells her that he's at a pizza place here in Fort Collins.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

And I'm sitting there thinking, okay, what do I say next? But I was like, well, how long are you going to be there? And he said, well, all night if I know you're coming.

[Jason (Children's Father)]

And I'm like, oh, great. Here are the lines.

[Anaya Echohawk]

When Lydia arrives at the pizza joint, Jason instantly spots her and calls her over to sit with him. They perch on these bar stools and talk for just hours. At one point, Lydia goes to the restroom, and Jason makes a call to his friend.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

And he told his friend, he said, I want you to write this down. This is the woman I'm going to marry. He knew that moment that he met me that we were going to be married.

[Anaya Echohawk]

And he was right. The following summer, they tie the knot.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

He loved our family life.

[Jason (Children's Father)]

He jumped right in.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

He was so ready to be a stepdad, and he was coaching my daughter's soccer and her softball, and he was just so happy to jump into that role.

[Anaya Echohawk]

And there's more good news. Just before Father's Day, Lydia discovers she's pregnant. She puts the positive test inside a card for him.

[Jason (Children's Father)]

And I said something about, there's nothing.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

More that I would want to give you than a child for Father's Day. And he's looking at it, and he's like, this isn't real, right? And I said, no, it's very real. And he starts crying, and he's so happy. I'm sorry. Yeah, he was just so happy.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Unfortunately, this happiness doesn't last. Lydia loves to tell the story of how she met her husband, but she tends to skim over the tougher times. Like all relationships, there are ups and downs. But Lydia and Jason find themselves arguing more and more. And over the years, those arguments get worse.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

We were kind of off and on, you know, every time I would kick him out, he'd go spend the night at his friend's house.

[Anaya Echohawk]

By the time their daughter turns five, they're going through a particularly bad patch. She's at her Wit's end. One night, Lydia wakes up suddenly.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

I sat up in bed and it must have been like 3 in the morning. And I just knew it. I knew I was pregnant. It wasn't exactly celebratory, I guess, at the time, but I knew that I wanted to have this baby and it was going to be okay. You know, I knew I could be a single mom. I knew I could figure it out.

[Anaya Echohawk]

It's a difficult pregnancy. Lydia's hardly sleeping. She's stressed. Their marriage is strained, but everything seems to change when she gives birth.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

I just had this beautiful baby boy. It was like this huge depression was lifted off my shoulders. Like, like all of a sudden holding.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Him.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

Made everything worth it. You know, all of the stress and.

[Jason (Children's Father)]

The pain that I was going through.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

With my relationship, it didn't matter once I had my boy in my arms. And I remember just having like this bond with him that he saved me. I needed him.

[Lydia Lerma]

Let's see, we'll go upstairs here.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia takes me up to her son's room with his baby photos on the wall.

[Lydia Lerma]

And yeah, he was not the cutest baby, but he's cute now.

[Anaya Echohawk]

That's what matters.

[Lydia Lerma]

Well, he was cute to me, but.

[Jason (Children's Father)]

The girls remind me that he was not cute.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Throughout this period, Lydia and Jason really try to make things work. She tells him that she wants to be a stay at home mom for a while and Jason steps up. He changes his job to one that's better paid so they can afford for Lydia to be home spending time with her lovely son.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

He was just my little buddy and we, we did everything together. I would put him on the bike trailer, I would take him out with me everywhere I went. Um, and yeah, it was just fun being with him. That here I am, this little baby boy's mama and he really, really needs me and I need to be there for him.

[Anaya Echohawk]

The family manages to stick together, and Lydia goes back to work when her son starts preschool.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

He had his little friends and I remember he had seen the little Cub Scouts in their uniforms and he expressed an interest in wanting to be a scout.

[Jason (Children's Father)]

And of course I was like, yes, yes.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia loves the outdoors, going hiking and hunting, so she's overjoyed. Her son wants that too. But this was also the time when Lydia and Jason decide to call it quits on their marriage and they separate. He moves out of the family house and back into the place he rented before they got together.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

And that's when we kind of opened the door to the dangers that would occur.

[Lydia Lerma]

Oh, wait, no, it's up here.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

Sorry.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia drives me to the house that Jason moved into.

[Lydia Lerma]

Okay, here it is. This is where the children's father lived when I met him. And then when we separated and got divorced, he was in this home.

[Anaya Echohawk]

The house is just a short drive from Lydia's.

[Lydia Lerma]

This is a bi level, so when you go in, there's a downstairs, and it's got a bedroom and then a big open space and. And then there's actually, I think, two bedrooms downstairs and then two upstairs.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Jason is living the bachelor life. He'd hang out at this local bar just around the corner called Matt's Place.

[Lydia Lerma]

I used to give him a bad time, and I'd tell him, why don't you just give Matt your paycheck and pay his mortgage? Because he was always there at Matt's Place, the bar, and he was part of the pool league. And then he would go and he would literally, like, have dinner there. He'd drink a beer there. He was always there.

[Anaya Echohawk]

One of the guys that Jason hangs out with is this younger man called Andrew Vanderwaal. At this point, Lydia and Jason are in their 40s, and Vanderwaal's in his 20s. Jason likes him because Vanderwaal is a veteran, which he really respects. And Vanderwaal goes to church and coaches sports. But he's been having a bit of a tough time since leaving the military. Struggling to find work. A bit overweight, doesn't have a girlfriend. Jason takes Vanderwaal under his wing, but Lydia gets a bad vibe from Vanderwaal.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

I raised the flags with my children's father, and I probably have a notebook an inch thick of text messages where I was expressing my concern. And of course, because of his disdain for me, the children's father would dismiss me, and he would dismiss my concerns.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Jason thinks this is just another fight that Lydia is picking with him. And who is she to say who he can and cannot spend time with now that they're separated? So when Vanderwaal says he's looking for a new place to live, Jason suggests he moves in with him. It'll help him cover rent on that big bi level house.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

And I'm like, you know why? I mean, this. I don't like this guy. I don't know why you want him around. And it just went on and on and on. And finally he ends up moving in with the children's father.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia's not happy about this. She especially doesn't want her kids hanging out with this guy.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

But I also didn't Ever want to use my children as pawns. I didn't ever want to be like, well, you can't see the kids unless you do this. I wasn't going to be that kind of parent. And I loved the relationship my children had with their father. That, to me, was perfect. He was an amazing father. He was a great father.

[Anaya Echohawk]

So she bites her lip and Vanderwaal moves in with Jason. The separation and divorce proceedings are a difficult time for the family. Over the next year, Lydia's son starts misbehaving.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

These horrible, violent outbursts with me, just horrible. And my children's father said to me, he's like, he doesn't have a problem. His problem is you. He doesn't behave like that when he's with me. Well, of course, you know, psychology 101. A child is going to act out with whoever they feel the safest with. And my son knew, mom's never going to abandon him. Mom's never going to stop loving him, and I'm going to just take it.

[Anaya Echohawk]

And in some ways, Lydia feels like her son's violence towards her is to be expected.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

I didn't know what was motivating them, what was driving his behavior. And so of course, I blamed myself for part of it. You know, being in a separate household and going back and forth. You know, children, they don't know how to articulate their feelings and what's happening. And so, of course, you know, everything goes through your mind. What could this be?

[Anaya Echohawk]

On the morning of Friday, October 28, 2016, Lydia is fast asleep. Jason has the kids at his place, so Lydia hasn't had to get up to do the school run. And this is the morning that she's awoken by her little dog, Nacho, barking to say that there's someone at the house. The day she goes down the stairs bleary eyed and opens her front door.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

And it's my children's father. And he's standing on the front step and he says to me, vanderwaal has been sexually abusing our son. And I remember for a moment it flashed through my head that I could kill my children's father for allowing this to happen, and I could go to his house and go kill his roommate. And my mind is going a million miles per hour. I'm thinking of all the things that I could do, the things that need to happen. And then my thoughts settled on, I have to be here for my children. Their father failed to protect them, and I have to be here to raise this son to adulthood. I can't kill anybody. I can't spend the rest of my life in prison. I want to be a grandma someday, and I'm not going to abandon my children by making that mistake.

[Anaya Echohawk]

So instead of killing Jason, she tells him to call the police.

[Detective Brenton Dayton]

My name is Brenton Dayton. I was an on call detective that particular day. And our patrol day shift took a call of a possible child sex assault.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Detective Dayton sends a responding officer out to Lydia's house.

[Lydia Lerma]

And it didn't seem like long. And the police were here. And we went into the house, we went down the hallway into the family room. And the police officer, he sat here, and the children's father and I sat here.

[Anaya Echohawk]

The responding officer asked Jason to write a statement.

[Lydia Lerma]

And he's sitting here and he's just shaking. I can see his hand just shaking. And he's writing everything down. And I'm. My mind, I don't even know how to explain, like, the numbness that I felt at the autopilot mode. The we need to have him arrested. Something has to happen. And then that's when the police walked us through the whole process of we have to get more evidence. And I'm like, what do you need?

[Detective Brenton Dayton]

We had a thought that something may have happened the night before. So we were well within the window of DNA evidence still being preserved. We learned that the child had not showered yet and the clothes had not been washed.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Detective Dayton instructs the responding officer to go to Jason's, the children's father's house and collect the son's clothes as evidence. Meanwhile, Lydia is asked to pick up her son from school and meet Detective Dayton at the hospital. He's recommending that her son has a sexual assault examination.

[Detective Brenton Dayton]

They're generally looking for DNA. I would explain the potential value of it and that it could really help with a criminal case, but we always do talk about that. It is a traumatic experience. We don't ever force that type of exam on anyone.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia gives permission for her son to have the exam. She takes him to the hospital.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

And I made the mistake of not being honest with my son. I told him he was getting a physical for sports. And I've learned that I should have been 100% transparent with him and honest with him. And we've talked about it since, but that was the only thing I knew to do at the time.

[Anaya Echohawk]

At the hospital, Detective Dayton meets the family for the first time.

[Detective Brenton Dayton]

They right away seemed very involved and very concerned and already strong advocates for their child.

[Anaya Echohawk]

But Detective Dayton warns Lydia they have their work cut out for Them. Sexual abuse cases are notoriously difficult to prosecute. According to the Rape, Abuse and Incest national network, only 5% of reports lead to arrest in the U.S. detective Dayton tells Lydia they'll be sending the evidence off for analysis. But he says that they need as much evidence as they can possibly get. He wants her son to be interviewed.

[Detective Brenton Dayton]

We have a place here in Fort Collins called the Child Advocacy Center. They have specially trained forensic interviewers for exactly this situation. Child abuse, child sex assault. It's really important to not ask leading questions. And they have training that they're really good at it.

[Anaya Echohawk]

But no specialists are available until next Tuesday. The family are going to have to wait it out over the weekend. And this presents a problem. The children's father, Jason, is living with Vanderwaal.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

He couldn't go back there and pretend like everything's okay and live with his roommate.

[Anaya Echohawk]

They come up with a plan.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

So he ended up calling Vanderwaal and telling him, hey, I gotta head out of town for work, which wasn't uncommon. And he said, the kids are with Lydia and I'll let you know when I'm heading back into town.

[Anaya Echohawk]

They book him into a hotel behind a grocery store and stash his car out of sight. Then they try and just get through the weekend.

[Lydia Lerma]

So here we are Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, you know, I'm going to work, I'm doing what I have to do.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Tuesday finally arrives. Lydia takes her six year old son to the Child Advocacy center to be interviewed about what happened with Vanderwaal. With sexual assault cases, it's often down to witness statements, one word against another. And in this case, that witness is a six year old kid. If he isn't able to tell the interviewer what happened, then the police might not have enough evidence to proceed.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

My son had asked if he could wear his Cub Scout uniform during his interview because it made him feel brave. And I said, of course you can wear that. And I told him, I cannot be with you during your interview, but I want you to know I'm with you in spirit so that you can feel me with you. And I said, and all you have to do is be 100% honest. And he knew, because he had his Scout oath and his Scout motto, he knew what that meant.

[Anaya Echohawk]

While they're waiting in the bright white hallway, Lydia starts spiraling, going over everything that happened over the past few months. She'd warned Jason about Vanderwaal, but he ignored her.

[Lydia Lerma]

Dismissing my radar, dismissing my concerns, because, oh, you're just paranoid. Obviously, I wasn't I was right.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Every parent's worst fears had come true. She hadn't been able to protect her son. And it happened on Jason's watch.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

I remember just the anger and just that level of adrenaline that I had.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Detective Dayton notices Lydia's anger to Jason.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

And he said something like trying to calm me down, basically say, something like, this isn't going to help. But the children's father said to him, it's okay. He goes, because I'd feel the same way if I were her, if the roles had been reversed and it had happened under my care.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia and Jason aren't allowed to see or hear what's happening in the interview room, but Detective Dayton watches the proceedings on a video monitor.

[Detective Brenton Dayton]

It was clear right away to me that the child had something he needed to say. And he alluded to his mother reminding him that it was important to tell the truth, no matter how uncomfortable that might be.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

My children's father and I are sitting outside waiting, and we're just waiting and waiting.

[Anaya Echohawk]

After 45 minutes, Detective Dayton comes out of the interview room. He tells Lydia and Jason the outcome.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

And he said, we can proceed. He said, we have enough evidence to proceed with the case.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Lydia takes her son home, while Jason goes with Detective Dayton to Fort Collins police station. The detective asks him if he'd be willing to do what's called a pretext phone call to Vanderwaal.

[Detective Brenton Dayton]

Here in Colorado, a phone call can be recorded without the other person being aware of it. A pretext phone call just takes it a little bit further. The police are monitoring and recording a phone conversation between somebody and a suspect with the intent of trying to elicit a confession and using the personal relationship as a tool to hopefully break through.

[Anaya Echohawk]

In short, getting Vanderwaal on the phone and trying to get a confession. Jason would have to call up the man he now hates and pretend to have a normal conversation with him. It's a lot to ask, but he knows he needs to do it for his son. Detective Dayton takes him into a room with cameras and microphones. There's a big whiteboard on the wall, and the detective writes up some notes coaching Jason on what to say on the call.

[Detective Brenton Dayton]

I always suggested that they just use the real feelings that they have. There's no way to fake those. They will come across as genuine because they are genuine feelings. And it's the natural reaction that a suspect would expect to potentially hear from someone confronting them about what may have happened.

[Anaya Echohawk]

Jason is the model student, listening attentively to all the detective's tips.

[Detective Brenton Dayton]

He had made some comments to me about his feeling of responsibility for inviting Mr. Vanderwaal to live in the house with them. And he was really dedicated to making this work and having his part to try to hold Mr. Vanderwaal accountable.

[Anaya Echohawk]

They prepare to make the call, but there's a potential problem.

[Detective Brenton Dayton]

We knew at that point that Mr. Van der Waalt had not been back to the house, and so we weren't sure where he was. And so we weren't even sure if we would be able to get ahold of him over the phone.

[Anaya Echohawk]

At 15:09 on November 1, 2016, Jason takes a deep breath and dials Vanderwaal's number. Detective Dayton goes quiet so he won't be heard on the line. Vanderwaal doesn't pick up. Detective Dayton suggests that Jason sends Vanderwaal a text saying that he needs to talk to him. They wait five minutes, no answer. Ten minutes, nothing. They're pacing the small room, not sure what to do next. And then at 15:27, Jason's phone rings. He looks down at the screen. It's Vanderwaal. He picks up and puts the phone on speaker. He hears Vanderwaal's voice.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

Hey, what's up?

[Anaya Echohawk]

This was episode one of the Hunter. The presenter is me, Anaya Echohawk. The voice of Andrew Vanderwaal was played by Tom Hayes. The producer is Emma Wetherill, sound design by Melvin Rickaby, production management by Juliet Harvey, and the executive producer is Joe Kent. You can contact the team on thehunterbc.com if you've been affected by any of the issues raised in this podcast. Details of organizations that can help are available in the episode. Description. The Hunter is funded and made by BBC Studios, a commercial company that is wholly owned by the BBC. Coming up on the Hunter.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

As much as I wanted to dig a hole and crawl in it and die, I knew I couldn't. And I made the choice to stand and fight.

[Jason (Children's Father)]

Every child who is abused, I think.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

Deserves someone like Lydia to fight for them. I mean, she's definitely got that mama bear thing going on.

[Detective Brenton Dayton]

Lydia definitely walks the walk, and I admire her for that.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

When I found all of these items, I remember I was shaking, and when I opened it, I was. I was absolutely shocked.

[Lydia Lerma]

You will pay for what you have done, because I am not gonna back down. And I will stand and I will fight for my son.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

You just like to get over there.

[Detective Brenton Dayton]

And give him a little ass whooping and hog time, throw him in the trunk.

[Lydia's Narration/Thoughts]

I'm gonna handle it like a mama bear would.

[Jason (Children's Father)]

I think the general tone was that was awesome and good for her.

[Anaya Echohawk]

If you're hooked on the Hunter, you don't have to wait to find out what happens next. Episodes 2 through 6 are available right now exclusively on Wonder. Dive deeper into this story and experience every twist without interruptions. Ready to finish the story? Start your free trial of Wondery plus in the Wondery app on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and unlock the rest of the series right now.