"Money Is EVIL!" Cliffe & Stuart Knechtle Debate The Existence of God & The Afterlife

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Money Is EVIL!" Cliffe & Stuart Knechtle Debate The Existence of God & The Afterlife

Episode Title: "Money Is EVIL!"
Host/Author: Graham Stephan & Jack Selby
Release Date: March 3, 2025
Podcast: The Iced Coffee Hour
Guests: Cliff Knechtle & Stuart Knechtle

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Iced Coffee Hour, hosts Graham Stephan and Jack Selby engage in a profound discussion with Cliff and Stuart Knechtle, a father-son duo leading a non-denominational Christian ministry in Connecticut. The episode delves deep into the existence of God, the nature of faith, the concepts of heaven and hell, and the moral frameworks that underpin human behavior. Throughout the conversation, the Knechtles challenge listeners to reflect on their beliefs, ethics, and the very purpose of life.

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Faith and Logic

Cliff Knechtle opens the discussion by emphasizing the complexity of the concept of God, stating, “The word God covers an enormous range of different ideas. You don't just logically come to faith. You can't logically prove God. You can't logically prove Christ.” (00:23) This sets the stage for a dialogue that explores the interplay between faith and rationality.

Graham Stephan probes further, asking, “How do you know you're right? And how do you have such conviction?” (00:36)
Stuart Knechtle responds candidly, “Well, we don't know we're right. That's why it's faith.” (00:40) highlighting the intrinsic reliance on belief beyond empirical evidence.

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The Afterlife: Heaven and Hell

The conversation shifts to the afterlife, with Jack Selby questioning the depiction of hell: “How is hell depicted? It sounds illogical or at least not intuitive that someone can exist... and then for eternity be banished to hell.” (08:50)

Stuart clarifies their belief, stating, “We believe that once you die, you have a relational existence... You keep your individuality.” (07:07) He further elaborates on hell, asserting that it results from choosing to live separate from God rather than mere ignorance.

Cliff reinforces this by saying, “hell is a result of me choosing to live my life separate from God... it's not a result of ignorance.” (15:31)

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Objective Morality and Atheism

A significant portion of the debate centers on the basis of objective morality. Cliff argues, “we were created in the image of God... you have a conscience... you have an innate ability to love...” (25:14) contrasting this with a secular worldview where morality lacks an objective foundation.

Stuart supports this by citing historical events and psychological studies, stating, “look at Nazi Germany... within 10 yards, doing nothing... so if you don't think that we have evil in our hearts, that we're not dirty rotten sinners, I don't know what that is.” (28:17)

The discussion touches on tribalism and the erosion of shared moral values, with Stuart noting, “as we're losing the concept of sin... the more hate is coming into play.” (94:34)

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Biblical Interpretation and Slavery

Addressing potential criticisms, Cliff confronts the controversial topic of slavery in the Bible: “The Bible never endorses slavery... It's the Mosaic law... we don't have one single sin that sends you to hell.” (91:46)

Stuart adds, “the Bible never recommends slavery... the Exodus delivering the Hebrew slaves out of Egypt... Philemon... send him back as a brother in Christ.” (93:39) This clarifies their stance that biblical texts do not morally endorse slavery but rather provide guidelines for existing societal structures.

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Prayer and Forgiveness

Jack Selby inquires about initiating prayer for newcomers: “For someone that's never prayed before, how do you recommend someone go about their first ever prayer session?” (65:52)

Cliff advises, “Prayer is simply the real you talking to the real God... start talking to Jesus as if he was sitting right there in the chair.” (65:59) He further explains the purpose of prayer, emphasizing it’s not about soliciting favors but building a relationship with God.

Stuart breaks down the Lord’s Prayer into components—adoration, confession, thanksgiving, and supplication—highlighting its comprehensive nature beyond mere requests. (90:06)

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The Problem of Suffering

One of the most poignant moments arises when Cliff shares a personal tragedy: the loss of his sister-in-law. Reflecting on this, he questions, “God, why didn't you intervene... send my niece” (112:02) This touches on the classic theological dilemma of why a benevolent God allows suffering.

Stuart counters by differentiating between God causing suffering and allowing free will: “Love demands free will... God creates us with a free will... the abuse of free will is what leads to sin and its consequences.” (112:04)

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Modern Societal Moral Issues

The debate navigates contemporary moral challenges like greed, selfishness, and the pursuit of self-flourishing. Cliff critiques the modern emphasis on self-interest: “It's all about me... If there is no God at the center of the cosmos, it is all about me, my life...” (82:44)

Stuart relates this to increasing tribalism and moral fragmentation, stating, “tribalism... says, well, you didn't really create me in your image... you're going to demonize you in any kind of way I want.” (94:34)

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The Unforgivable Sin

The concept of an unforgivable sin emerges, with Jack Selby probing its nature: “What is the unforgivable sin?” (72:54)

Stuart clarifies that it’s not a single act but a state of persistent and hypocritical rejection of God: “living a life of hypocrisy... you're making a calculated decision to live separate from God.” (73:10)

Cliff adds, “if this is me saying I'm going to be God and I'm going to make my own choices on how to live... that's a type of grieve in the Holy Spirit.” (75:46)

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Prayer, Discernment, and Personal Struggles

Cliff and Stuart discuss the nuances of prayer, differentiation between confidence and arrogance, and the internal struggles with sin and self-absorption. Cliff emphasizes humility and service over self-centric living: “I got to think hard about adjusting my lifestyle.” (82:09)

Stuart underscores the importance of loving others as oneself, moving beyond cultural narratives that promote self-flourishing at the expense of communal well-being: “when you have moral objectivity... what is morally right and wrong.” (84:42)

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Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, the Knechtles reaffirm their commitment to their faith and the transformative power of Christianity in addressing life's deepest questions and moral quandaries. They encourage listeners to explore the Gospels, engage in disciplined prayer, and embrace a life of service and humility.

Cliff concludes with a powerful assertion of faith amidst suffering: “my faith in God... is based on the character of God... there is life after death.” (112:02)

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Notable Quotes

• Cliff Knechtle: “The word God covers an enormous range of different ideas. You don't just logically come to faith.” (00:23)

• Stuart Knechtle: “We don't know we're right. That's why it's faith.” (00:40)

• Jack Selby: “What happens when you die and after you die?” (00:45)

• Stuart Knechtle: “If you don't have a spiritual moral obligation... evil will lose.” (09:51)

• Cliff Knechtle: “If you don't have just the knowledge, God's going to send you to hell.” (12:30)

• Stuart Knechtle: “If there's no God, then moral obligation breaks down.” (94:34)

• Cliff Knechtle: “Prayer is the real you talking to the real God.” (65:59)

• Stuart Knechtle: “The biggest questions of life are, where do we come from? What is our purpose? And where are we going?” (00:15)

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This episode serves as an invitation for listeners to critically evaluate their beliefs, understand the foundational aspects of faith, and consider the profound implications of a life guided by spiritual principles versus secular ones. The Knechtle brothers offer a nuanced perspective that intertwines personal experience with theological doctrine, urging a deeper contemplation of existence, morality, and the afterlife.

Transcript

[Cliff]

You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries. You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns. McDonald's breakfast comes first.

[Stuart]

The biggest questions of life are where do we come from? What is our purpose? And where are we going?

[Cliff]

The word God covers an enormous range of different ideas. You don't just logically come to faith. You can't logically prove God. You can't logically prove Christ.

[Graham]

How do you know you're right? And how do you have such conviction?

[Stuart]

Well, we don't know we're right. That's why it's faith.

[Jack]

What happens when you die and after you die?

[Cliff]

Because this guy put his faith in Christ, we're going to see them again in heaven. But all I got to do, Graham and Jack, is look up and consider the vastness of the cosmos. If there is a supernatural being who created the cosmos, it's not strange, stupid to believe there's life after death.

[Jack]

When is the last time you both seriously doubted your faith? Stuart and Cliff, thank you so much for coming on the Iced Coffee Hour.

[Stuart]

Thank you for having us, guys.

[Cliff]

Yes, thank you.

[Stuart]

It's great.

[Jack]

Thank you for bringing us into your beautiful home out here, too. This is.

[Graham]

This is so crazy, providing us with coffee and cookies. You guys have been so nice.

[Jack]

Very, very generous. So thank you for that, you guys. A non denominational Christian ministry out here in Connecticut. You guys have consistently gone viral from your college tours, from a bunch of podcast interviews you guys have done with people like Patrick pet David, Alex O'Connor, impulsive George Janko and Matan Evan. And you guys also have a YouTube channel called Give Me an Answer, which I really enjoy with the college tours. I think it. You guys do a great job.

[Cliff]

I appreciate you, Jack, Graham.

[Jack]

So which debate has been the most intense out of everything you guys have done so far?

[Stuart]

I would go all the way back to our very first debate. You remember that one up at the White House, we had a debate with this youth pastor who lost his faith, and I think he did a lot of straw manning of the faith. Yep, you're really good at. I think his intensity is really good in cases like that where guys claim, oh, I was fully a believer in every kind of way, and then just lost it because of some type of inconsistency in the Bible that I saw. And you're good, I think, shining light on that with your intensity. And then all of a sudden that kind of uncovers potentially an emotional bias.

[Graham]

Why did he lose his faith?

[Cliff]

I think there's one major reason to lose Your faith, and that is, I'm offended by God because God tells me what to do and I don't want anybody telling me what to do. So I think there's an innate human bias. I think I have it against God because I don't want people telling me how to do what to do. I naturally resist authority. I don't want to be told. And I think that that's a very good reason why a lot of human beings say no to God.

[Graham]

And what was your argument against that to him in that case? And what made that so strong between you two?

[Cliff]

The argument that the Bible's unreliable is I find very flimsy. And if a person can't grasp that, I would just ask them to ask themselves the question, what are you living for? And what's the evidence? So what you are living for is the truth. And the options to answering that question other than Christ or God are so flimsy, they are so ill supported by evidence, that to act like the real reason I can't believe in God is because a lack of evidence is a smokescreen.

[Jack]

What about people that don't even that aren't even curious about that? They don't even ask that question, what am I living for? What's the purpose of all of this? Some people, this sounds a little bit offensive to say, but maybe you're like jellyfish in the tides. They just enjoy and exist through life rather than wondering things like that.

[Cliff]

Unfortunately, Jack, I think you're absolutely right. And that's why it's amazing to watch young men and young women when they're holding their first baby, all of a sudden start asking those questions. Because when you're holding a new life and you begin to ask, oh my goodness, why is human life valuable? Oh my goodness, is there a purpose to life? Oh my goodness, what am I going to teach this child ethically? What's right, what's wrong? And oh my goodness, they are going to be going to grandpa and grandma's funerals fairly soon. So we're gonna have to ask, is there life after death or not? All of a sudden you begin to grapple with those issues. But you're absolutely right, Jack. For many of us, the question is not those issues, which are deep, hard issues, but rather the issues are, where's the next party? How can I stimulate my nerve endings better? How can I get ahead in my career? And it's sort of like right here. That's the only thing I think about.

[Jack]

I'm excited for this podcast. I told a lot of my Christian friends that were doing this, and they obviously were super excited. They're like, oh, my gosh. I think these guys represent the text extremely well. They. They have the right interpretation of it. So they were very excited for our background. Just so the viewer can get an idea. I was raised completely agnostic. My mom was Jewish, Ashkenazi Jew. My dad was Christian. I was raised nothing. But I'm totally open to things. I'm just heavily skeptical. You guys both say that the logical answer is Christianity. You say the logic would lead to Christianity, which I find very interesting, and we're going to get into that this episode. Graham, your background. If people. For people to understand where you're coming from.

[Graham]

Yeah, I really was just raised with Christmas. That was about it. My mom was raised Jewish. Didn't really follow that. As for me, I mean, that's basically it. But I'm completely open. I really don't have an agenda either way.

[Jack]

If I also didn't introduce you guys perfectly well, you guys are welcome to introduce yourselves to fill in any gaps.

[Cliff]

Yes, it's very clear. You did not introduce me correctly.

[Jack]

Okay.

[Stuart]

He's not my brother.

[Cliff]

I am Stuart's father.

[Stuart]

Not my husband's, not my brother.

[Cliff]

He's my dad. My claim to fame is I'm his dad. I get to be here. His dad. No, you didn't. You didn't.

[Stuart]

He ages really well.

[Cliff]

Nivea.

[Stuart]

For me, I'm just stressed all the time with my kids.

[Jack]

Did I actually call you brother?

[Cliff]

No, you didn't. No, you didn't. Oh, my gosh.

[Graham]

Did I miss that, too? I was like. I was checking notes here, maybe glanced over.

[Jack]

I was going to be horribly embarrassed. Did I. Did I miss anything?

[Cliff]

Not a thing. No. I'm just a very proud father, that's all.

[Jack]

Okay. We're both pastors.

[Stuart]

He's a senior pastor. I'm assistant pastor.

[Graham]

For those that are unfamiliar with you guys, why should they listen to you in particular?

[Cliff]

Because if you listen closely to us, we are consistently challenging people to read the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John for themselves. Do not take it from us. You'd be a fool to put your faith in Christ. Because I believe in Jesus or cause Stuart does? But when you go to the source documents, the historical eyewitness reports about how Jesus lived, taught, died, and rose from the dead, there you have an opportunity to ascertain, Jesus a fool or Jesus the truth.

[Jack]

Okay, So I would say, just to start this off, my main skepticism comes around heaven and hell. What does the afterlife mean to you? What happens when you die and after you die?

[Stuart]

We believe that once you die, you have kept your relational existence an opportunity to keep relationships going forward. You're not going to be some type of spiritual, just kind of aloof being that's ethereal, strumming a harp on a cloud. Oftentimes other religions say that's exactly what you are, or you or somehow you just get caught up in an all soul type of existence and you lose your individuality. We believe that you keep your individuality. And Jesus actually died physically with a body and rose physically. So we're going to have physical lasting existence. That's why Steve Jobs, when he said finally at his deathbed, he finally started to really grapple with these questions that you were talking about, because he didn't really grapple with them much during his life. He kind of just waited off and said, you know, I'm purposes to make money here and to create. Well, eventually when he was on his deathbed, he said, hold on here. All my experience, all my relational experience as well as my wealth and what I've done with my businesses, I don't think this is just going to go away with the click of a mouse. I think there's got to be something more. And he would call that heaven. So it's a relational existence where we'll be able to recognize each other if we accept Christ versus something that is either you just fall through a trapdoor into darkness or you just get caught up in an all soul or something like it.

[Jack]

And then what about hell? Like how, how is hell depicted? Because that for me is a very interesting one. It sounds illogical or at least not intuitive that someone can exist, not well, for a life that's maybe 20, 30, 40, 50 years long and sin and not ask for forgiveness and then for eternity be banished to hell. How, what, what is hell depicted? Like, what is the, the general understanding?

[Stuart]

Well, sin doesn't send you to hell. It's what you do with Jesus Christ. What do you do with God? Are you gonna live for yourself? So David Foster Wallace, you guys probably know him, he wrote Infinite Jest, was probably gonna be the greatest writer of our era. Atheist. He said everybody worships something. If it's something that is ultimately infinite, it can buoy you in a way where you can make it through suffering. But if it's something that is like looks, talent, money, that's all gonna fade away and eventually it'll eat you alive. And so he pointed to a type of heaven and hell he ultimately didn't believe, but he said it makes a lot of sense. And so for us, we say all these kids on college campus. Back to your question a second ago. These kids on college campuses believe in a heaven and hell, typically. And there's a growing belief in hell specifically because they want justice. Justice is intimately connected with hell infinitely. Because if you don't have hell, there's no judgment day and ultimately endless amounts of people are going to be ripped off. And there's no justice from a moral objective perspective either if there is no God.

[Jack]

So what's the primary judgment then? Basically, like you said, if you believed in Christ.

[Stuart]

Yeah. If you decide I'm going to give up myself to gain myself, if I'm going to live for something outside of myself and say I'm going to humble myself in order to say, God, I want to live for you rather than me, now you're moving in that direction versus living for something else.

[Jack]

I agree that's probably a moral statement, to live for something more than just yourself. So I agree with that. But you could also live for your children, you could live for the community, other things that, sure, the text would support. But technically, if you're also morally not living for yourself, you're doing something just. And therefore you probably, you know, should get into the. The gates. Right? But before we get into that, let's talk about rent for a second. Isn't it crazy that it's probably your biggest expense expense and yet you get nothing in return? Well, all of that changes with Bilt Rewards.

[Graham]

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[Jack]

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[Graham]

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[Jack]

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[Cliff]

Right.

[Stuart]

Well, again, it's what do you do with Jesus Christ? Because if you live for children or if you live for community, I mean, how if one of my kids dies and I'm living for them and I turn them into God, I'm going to have an existential breakdown. Jordan Peterson talks about that. You guys had him on your show. He flat out said that if I'm living for a parent or a kid, I will have an emotional existential total breakdown and I will be depressed significantly the rest of my life if I turn them into a God rather than something that is infinite and personal. You know, endless amounts of people say this Viktor Frankl man's search for meaning. He said people were literally shriveling up and dying or they were coming tremendously selfish if they did not believe in a God outside of the prisoner of war camps. So if you live for something that's finite, it's going to destroy you eventually.

[Graham]

Why do they need to live for Jesus in particular, not maybe another God for like any other religion out there? Would they go to hell?

[Stuart]

Right. And so the question becomes, who are we to judge hearts? We are not universalists in saying that any religion doesn't matter what you are, you're going to heaven if you follow it sincerely. No, it's not about how sincere your belief is. It's about the object of your faith. And is there evidence for the reliability of that object or not? Is it just, oh, no, I'm going to be sincere. This is my religion that I grew up in, and that's what I'm going to follow versus the evidence for. No, every single person, like he just said, every single person is going to ask those big questions at some point. Leo Tolstoy, when he was at the very apex of his writing career, everybody knew him in the world, had an existential breakdown because he said, wow, I'm going to die one day. And all these books that I'm writing, all this money that I'm accruing doesn't really matter whatsoever. So he has this breakdown. So the question becomes back to my dad's original point. Who or what is more reliable than Jesus Christ and who you're living for? So you have to do your research. But we don't believe that if you don't have just the knowledge, God's going to send you to hell. So it's not just a knowledge thing, it's how do you live out Your life as well. Am I living in such a way where I am humbling myself and getting outside of myself, or am I living for something like money or something related to money?

[Cliff]

The logic of heaven, hell, part of it is, if there is no God, if there is no day of judgment, if there is no heaven and no hell, you've got to think, okay, then what is there? And I think it's rather obvious.

[Graham]

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[Cliff]

You've got to think, okay, then, what is there? And I think it's rather obvious. There's the fertilizer pit for Adolf Hitler and Mother Teresa. And if you believe that, then what does that mean about life today? What it means about life today is it doesn't matter whether you're Adolf Hitler or Mother Teresa, because ultimately you're going to end in the same place. The fertilizer pit. So part of the logic of a day of judgment and a heaven and a hell is. No, it does matter. God created us for a purpose. And if you choose to violate the purpose for which God created you by living a life of Adolf Hitler, you will be judged for that, and that'll be hell. And then the second Point is, hell is a result of me choosing to live my life separate from God. It's not a result of ignorance. It's a result of me choosing to say, God, I have a better way. I want to live separate from you. Correct.

[Jack]

So you can't in theory. I know you guys have addressed this before, but you can't be born into a culture that doesn't have any, like, Christian values, or you couldn't be a person that, you know, you're born and then one year later you fall sick and you die or something like that. Those people did not make the active decision to stay away.

[Cliff]

Very good.

[Jack]

From the church so they can still go into heaven.

[Stuart]

That's biblical, too. When David messes up, has the adulterous affair with Bathsheba, and obviously a baby is born out of tremendous sin, it's adultery and there was murder because he sent Mariah to the front lines and Mariah was killed. He specifically says, I will go to that baby. That baby will not come to me.

[Jack]

So in my circumstance, I know you guys don't know because you're not guarding the gates, but if I don't necessarily reject Christ, which I don't, and. But if I just live my life as what I like to think of as a pretty good man, and I do have principles that align with the values of Christianity, and I try to help people and contribute to my community and be a good father eventually and a good husband, then would that be sufficient?

[Cliff]

No, it won't be sufficient. Because I'm like you, Jack. You and I are two great guys. We haven't murdered anybody. We've never stolen a bunch of money out of a bank or from a person's wallet. We're really decent guys, but unfortunately for us, the standard on the Day of Judgment is not going to be good American citizen. It's going to be God's holiness, his moral perfection. And although I have never stolen money, I've been greedy. Although I've never murdered, I have hated. So I'm not this wonderful guy that I wish you both from Las Vegas would believe that I am. All right. I am a dirty, rotten sinner. Now, religion says if you follow the rules, you'll make it to heaven. And Jesus Christ says, no, you'll never make it because of you following the rules. Because although you follow many of the rules and you live a good life, and your conscience tells you you live a good life, and your rational mind tells you you live a good life, you also experience guilt. And guilt is my alarm system. God says, of waking you up to the fact that you haven't always done good. And that's where the cross of Christ comes in. He bleeds and dies on a cross to forgive us for our wrongdoing, to reconcile us to God.

[Jack]

But even right now, I'm not, like I said, rejecting Christianity. I'm just existing and not, like, making that active decision. Isn't there some sort of distinction between the two of, like, someone presents me with it and I'm completely like, no, never talk to me about it, ever. Or they. They give me the facts and maybe it's enough evidence to support that it's true, but I still reject the facts and the evidence. Wouldn't that be more rejecting Christianity than simply existing through life? And, you know, as we discussed beforehand, sure, I'm a sinner, but there is, you know, sinning comes in different. It comes on a spectrum.

[Cliff]

Yes, it does come on a spectrum. But, Jack, if I say, you know, hello, Jack, and then I turn my back to you and I ignore you, that's a form of rejection. And so if I sort of give tacit acknowledgement to the existence of God, but don't take him seriously, that's a form of tacit rejection. I'm essentially rejecting you. No, if you treat me with kindness, then it's incumbent upon me to respond to your kindness and to trust you and to love you and build a friendship, build a relationship with you. And when you're confronted by Jesus Christ, who gives his life for you, I don't think there are a lot of people who've given their lives for me. When he gives his life for me on a cross, then all of a sudden it's incumbent upon me to respond to him?

[Graham]

Well, couldn't you also argue that people give their lives when they go and they volunteer for the military or they join or they fight for our freedom, that they also give. Give their lives for us.

[Cliff]

Great point, Graham. They sure do. In fact, just this past week, I was with a guy who's a sniper in the armed forces, and what he has put himself through and what he is opening himself up to is incredible. He fought in Afghanistan, he fought in Iraq, and believe me, I thanked him for his service to our country. But it goes beyond that. It goes down to. It goes to God. Do you really care for me? Do you really want me to spend eternity with you in heaven? Whoa. If you do, I've got to respond to you and trust in you. And ultimately, Graham, you and I are going to trust someone or something if I don't trust God, ultimately I will trust myself ultimately. For instance, when I read the Bible and I say, well, I don't like that part of the Bible and I don't accept that. What I'm saying is my judgment, my impulses, my feelings are more important. I trust them more than I trust what God has said supposedly in this book, the Bible. In other words, if I don't worship God, probably as an American, I'm going to worship an idealized version of myself.

[Graham]

How do you know you're right? And how do you have such conviction? Where does that stem from?

[Stuart]

Well, we don't know we're right. That's why it's faith. But everybody lives by faith and belief. Sure, even the most ardent scientists live by many rules of faith and belief. I mean, they need constants going into their experiments, right? They're going to believe in those constants before they start their experiments. Well, that's faith right there. So we don't have certainty or proof. There's next to nothing in this life that you can truly prove. That's why we go by the evidence. That's why the militant atheist who says, oh, faith is just, you know, begins where reason leaves off is completely wrong. There's a faith statement within that that they're making because they can't prove what they're saying there. So you can't prove if there is a God and you can't prove if there is no God. But we live by the conviction of how we live, how we think, what our relationships. Why is loving at the center of our existence if we've just evolved red and tooth and claw. That doesn't make any sense. There's a spiritual existence. As a mental health therapist, I talk with people endlessly, even if they're atheists, about a spiritual realm. Everybody believes in that now to some extent. So we have convictions, but we don't have proof. But it's back to Jack. I find Jack very interesting when he talked about how he's a good guy. Well, how do you know you're a good guy? People define that differently in every kind of way. But then I love that you said, I live by Christian principles. So you're kind of a cultural Christian, and so you're well on your way, even though you're questioning, is Jesus the way, the truth and the life? So we don't live by certainty, but how do you act? Why do we live by these Christian principles, all of us seemingly.

[Graham]

This might sound stupid, but in terms of proof, what about existence of dinosaurs and showing dinosaur Bones and things like this.

[Cliff]

That doesn't contradict the Bible at all. The Bible never answers the question, are there dinosaurs? The Bible never answers the question, is North America in real geography? The Bible never answers the question, is there Australia? So you can't argue from silence. When a text is silent, you have to respect the silence of the text. And there's no talking about dinosaurs in the Bible. So therefore it would be dishonest for me to say, oh, the Bible does say there are dinosaurs, or for somebody else to say the Bible contradicts science, scientific evidence that there is dinosaurs, because the Bible does nothing of the sort.

[Jack]

Now this is, you know, once again a common question, but I feel like it needs to be addressed because I still have never heard like a fully satisfactory answer to it. But if you exist your entire life rejecting, and then on the deathbed or for some short period of time, you ask for forgiveness, is that enough to do it? Why or why not?

[Cliff]

It's definitely enough to do it, which is a clear symbol of how much God loves you. It's a clear sign that God really wants you to spend eternity with him in heaven. And if you genuinely repent on your deathbed, as the thief who was nailed to the cross on the side of Christ did, he turns to Jesus and says, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And Jesus does not say, well, get down off the cross and say 12 Hail Marys and work in a soup kitchen. Instead he says, I tell you the truth, today you'll be with me in paradise. You see, that's Grace. C.S. lewis was walking through the faculty lounge at Oxford and the faculty was having a debate. What's the difference between Christianity and every other major world religion? And C.S. lewis said, well, easy, Grace. Every major world religion says there's no such thing as a free lunch. Earn it. You pile up the good deeds and if you pile them up high enough, God will smile on you and you'll be in nirvana or heaven. And Jesus says, no. Jesus says, heaven is a gift that God gives you that you don't earn, you don't deserve. It's a gift I offer you through grace.

[Jack]

So if we're born sinners and we have a natural disposition towards sinning and evil, then wouldn't it make sense then, if that is the evidence based conclusion to live a life of sin because you and I can end up in exactly the same place, how does that justify putting your life towards faith rather than these other things that you know, maybe biologically speaking are more desirable?

[Cliff]

Oh, but Jack, as Stuart alluded to beautifully. You're not this wantonly evil guy. You're a really nice guy. Based on the evidence that we've seen so far, you can contradict that, but I don't think you will, Jack. Okay, so you're a really nice guy. All right, well, why is that? Because you're created in the image of God. You're not just a dirty rotten sinner. You're a human being created in the image of God. You have a conscience. You have a rational mind. You have this innate ability to love, to really care. I think you probably have a great friendship with Graham. All right, well, that's part of what it means to be created in the image of God. But you also have a readiness to sin factor, is what Dallas Willard, the USC philosophy professor, called it. You also have a tendency to sin, as I do. We're all mixed up kids. I mean, Jack, when I was a little kid, 50 yards out that door in a sandbox, I picked up a metal truck and dropped it on the head of a buddy of mine when I was 5 and he was 5. Well, I had never seen that behavior modeled, but he offended me. So I picked up the truck and dropped it on him. I'm a dirty rotten sinner, but I didn't do that consistently. I also shared and was generous. So we're all mixed up kids, I think. And that's one of the reasons I believe in Christ, because that's his analysis of the human dilemma.

[Jack]

Are there certain people, though, that are born evil per se, or is everyone born a sinner in the image of God? And they have, like, sure, the natural disposition towards sinning, but they can, they naturally will, as they grow up and are impressed upon, will develop some sort of ambition and desire for good.

[Stuart]

Freud talked about this clearly as a secular Jew, didn't believe in God, but he said there was an id, ego, superego. And so you were born good in some ways and born with this id, which was tremendously sinful and evil in another way. See, we were just talking about New York City earlier. Look at Nazi Germany. How many thousands upon thousands just fell prey to what Hitler was doing? And they thought, you know what? Okay, Aryan race kind of makes sense. We're living in fear anyway, and the nationalism is strong. And they just fell prey to, yeah, let's wipe out the Jewish race. How many thousands? And they were at the top of the intelligentsia, many of them in the world. So we were talking about New York City. Do you know how many people just stood by in the subway, when that woman was burnt to death by that illegal immigrant. 6. They were just watching right there. I mean within 10 yards, doing nothing. Or for example, 1964, Genovese, the young woman who was to death, you know, that man was hurt to right there in New York City, Upper east side. And all of a sudden all the lights came on in different buildings. He runs away because he thinks the cops are going to show up. All 38 witnesses in those buildings did not a thing. They didn't come down, they didn't make any calls. And what happened? That man comes back 10 minutes later and just finishes her off. So if you don't think that we have evil in our hearts, that we're not dirty rotten sinners, I don't know what that is. I don't have a name for it.

[Graham]

Why do you think so many people stand and watch instead of help?

[Stuart]

Because we're dirty rotten sinners. We have that side. We're created in the image of God. We have the ability and potential to do great good. We almost worship each other in a way because you know, you're. You have something in you that I really like. But at the same time I have this readiness to sin factor where I can do great evil. And I think that ushers in a realm that we call personal, supernatural, evil. And if there is no God, that's not that, that isn't a category, that isn't real. We don't have a name for evil. Evil is innately a religious term.

[Jack]

The person that you brought up, Genovese, you said Genovese.

[Stuart]

I think that's.

[Jack]

Yeah, yeah. So her life was cut short. Maybe she didn't have the opportunity like a lot of people have if they exist for long enough to be introduced to something like that. Or maybe she was introduced, but she was young and she was naive and so she rejected it. Her life was cut short. She had less opportunity to be able to. To get through the Golden Gates. What does something like that mean? Does God know? Because he's the all knowing that if she were to continue on her life, then she would have continually rejected it for the rest of it.

[Cliff]

Jack, you're absolutely right. God is all knowing. That's why I'm real grateful that on the Day of Judgment no one's going to be able to trick God, fool God, pull the wool over God's eyes. No, God's all knowing. God is just and he will judge justly. That is why I have hope for the future. Because I know that ultimately justice will win. Ultimately evil Will lose. But remember, no day of judgment, no heaven, no hell. The good die young, Evil wins often.

[Jack]

What about cats? Because Graham has a cat named Ramsay, and he really loves.

[Graham]

And Dog Bailey.

[Jack]

And dog Bailey. And Gigi as well. Don't forget Gigi. GG he really loves his pets. Something as simple as that. Are they gonna be there?

[Stuart]

Well, the lion will lay down with the sheep. We get pretty clearly. And if that's biblical, I think that's more than just metaphorical. I think animals, yes. They're not creating the image of God per se, like we are. So it's a little disturbing to me that 35% of Americans now say that they would save their animal's life before a stranger. Stranger's life.

[Cliff]

They said that?

[Stuart]

35%.

[Jack]

When did that come out?

[Stuart]

It's growing. It came out a few years ago, four or five years ago.

[Jack]

Do you think it's a cultural shift? Is it like a individualism, you know, growing in our society and people caring for themselves?

[Stuart]

Secularism. Secularism. Even though. Even though belief in God is growing at the same time, secularism is growing in different pockets of the nation. And so when you lose the image of God, if I don't think you're an eternal person who's worth really loving, why don't I choose my cat? Especially if I think you're kind of in my way, and especially if I think, like, oh, I don't really know you, so why would I have an attachment?

[Graham]

This would be an interesting thought experiment. If you had two buttons in front of you. One saves your pet, the other saves a random person that you don't know on the planet, would you do?

[Jack]

Yeah, I think that would change it a lot. Yeah.

[Graham]

If you don't know the person at all and they're so far removed from you that you'll never see them, you're never going to hear from them, but your pet is right there, and you could visually see your pet staring at you.

[Jack]

And the Bible would say, morally speaking, you should save the human, because a human's life is more valuable than animals.

[Cliff]

Although I might step on a cockroach. I better not step on you, Jack. Although I might step on an ant. Graham, I better not step on you, because you are created in the image of God in the way the cockroach and the ant are not. Now, that does not mean that the cockroach and the ant are insignificant, but it does mean that you are a creation of God in his image, which means you have a value and a dignity that the cockroach and the ant do not have.

[Graham]

Do some people have more value than others? Because if you could rank people higher than dogs, higher than cats, and go down the spectrum, every human is technically the same, even though some people might have a much greater impact on society than others.

[Cliff]

But not if there is no God. Because if there is no God, we're the result of evolution and some of us are evolved higher than others of us. And that's why you had eugenics back at the time of World War II, because certain Aryan races were superior to other races because of evolution. And logically that makes sense. But the Bible insists no, you're not just an evolutionary product. You're a human being created in the image of God with innate intrinsic value and dignity. Because you're not simply a highly evolved ape, you're a human being created in the image of God.

[Stuart]

When we're debating Hindus on college campuses and Hinduism is growing, actually on college campuses, I was frequently pushing them on the caste system because it comes back to your question. I went to the Hindu temple down the street. I was definitely the only Caucasian guy there, but it was quite a, it was quite an experience. And then I went to a Hindu home and I was sitting with two women and I said, hold on, don't you have more value than you because you're higher up in the caste system? And they started giggling awkwardly. They said, well, we're kind of doing away with that in Hinduism, but we're trying to figure it out because technically, yes, I have more value than you.

[Graham]

Can you explain the caste system? Yeah, I'm not familiar with that.

[Stuart]

So the caste system is basically, you're born into a certain level of value or not culturally. And so it's a cultural issue that they have set up. So it's not necessarily a type of works. It's not like you work better and do more things and all of a sudden you're higher. No, you're actually born into it.

[Graham]

Is it based on, is it based on your family or gender or what's it.

[Stuart]

Okay, right.

[Cliff]

Reincarnation.

[Stuart]

Reincarnation, your past karma in terms of.

[Jack]

Heaven, do you have a certain image in your mind of what that would look like? Does it differ between you two?

[Graham]

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[Jack]

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[Graham]

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[Jack]

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[Graham]

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[Stuart]

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[Jack]

In terms of heaven, do you have a certain image in your mind of what that would look like? Does it differ between you two? Or is there like. Like you said, like we're going to have some sort of physical body, you know, like the, the classic Hollywood illustration is like CL everywhere, you know, like big golden gates and that's it. Like, you know, you reunite with your dead great grandpa or something like that.

[Stuart]

Yeah. When Jesus said, in my Father's house, there are many rooms and I'm going there to prepare a place for you. That could be metaphorical or it could be, hey, there literally are homes up there, and this place down here is going to look like a trash can compared to what heaven is really going to look like. But no, the Bible is pretty silent on what specifically it will look like, which I like. I mean, if it's God and God is creating an eternity that is perfect for us, I would guess the Bible would be pretty silent on that because we wouldn't be able to logically grasp it.

[Cliff]

So this Jack, I do have an image of heaven in my Head. And it's wrong.

[Stuart]

Okay, okay.

[Cliff]

Because the Bible doesn't give us a photograph of heaven. But for the past 2,000 years, followers of Christ have tried to draw that picture. Obviously Dante tried to do it very clearly in the Divine Comedy and other places. But no, the Bible does not give us a photograph of heaven. And therefore I have to have the humility to say I really don't know. But what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 2, 9 is, Eye has not seen, ear has not heard. Mind is not conceived. What God has prepared for those who love him. We do know that we'll have resurrection bodies. Heaven is not going to be spirits floating around for eternity. You will be you, I will be me. We will be able to continue to build a friendship, a relationship. We do know. There'll be no more evil or suffering. No more fighting, no more war, no more disease, no more death. It'll be eternal joy. But there's no photograph. And I have a problem with people who like to draw the photograph and then say it's a Christian understanding. No, there's no photograph that Jesus or the Bible gives us.

[Stuart]

Don't you guys believe that there's a soul and a self that will continue on forever?

[Jack]

I do.

[Stuart]

There's gotta be, right?

[Jack]

Yeah, it sounds like there should. Because I first of all hate the idea that like, you know, don't exist. But then again, someone said it's basically like, what do you remember before being born?

[Stuart]

Yeah.

[Jack]

And I'm like, okay, well, I guess that kind of makes sense and alleviates my fear. But I don't know.

[Graham]

I do find it interesting. I've been so obsessed with like the past life experiences and hearing some of these stories about a kid who comes up and speaks naturally a language that did not exist for the last 5,000 years isn't taught and this child speaks it fluidly. Or other stories where you hear where they could recollect a specific memory of a point in time. Go back to that and say, I remember this being like three or four years old. What are your thoughts on those sort of experiences?

[Cliff]

Be skeptical. Be very, very skeptical because a lot of them have shown to be totally fraudulent. But second point would be it maybe is an indicator, a very physical, more tangible type of indicator that indeed there is an existence after this life. But you've got to be very, very careful because, I mean, I had just heard about a movie that was made of a little boy who had a near death experience and came back and explained a lot of things and a movie was made about it. And then, oh, by gollies, turned out to be a fraud. So you gotta be very, very skeptical. You gotta demand evidence of reliability before you trust, otherwise you'll have your lunch eaten for you.

[Stuart]

But there's over 300 peer reviewed articles at Duke University of near death experiences that have occurred. That's Duke University.

[Graham]

What are the commonalities that you found from those?

[Stuart]

A warm feeling floating outside of your body and clear recollection of things that you saw when you were unconscious. And you're able to read back exactly what was seen, for example, on a medical report of somebody down the hallway, or a boy falling out 12ft out of a tree was another one who he was able to recollect and tell his mom exactly what occurred later on. And he was fully unconscious. So for me, you know, I was telling somebody who you guys know pretty well, well, he's pretty big right now. He was pushing me on, hey, Stuart, you keep claiming that all these Muslims are becoming Christians over in the Middle east and Africa. That's ridiculous. And I said, well, hold on a second. Endless amounts of testimony right now, thousands upon thousands. And I have a friend who, once I graduated grad school, he specifically went over there to test this out and he said, hey, look man, this is absolutely going on. It's amazing how many of these Muslims who are strong in their faith are giving up land, property, I mean, at the risk of their own lives because they meet Christ in a dream. So these are all testimony. I think you're probably more skeptical than I am about them. I used to be very skeptical, but I'm starting to buy into 400 million personal testimonies in India alone talking about supernatural experiences. I mean, do atheists go and question these people? The average atheist does not. And they just say they're all hallucinating or something like that. I'm sorry, there's too many testimonies for me to believe that they're just hallucinating.

[Jack]

So this is from the text. But why did God decide to test humanity again after Jesus's thousand year reign with Satan?

[Cliff]

That's a very specific interpretation of some rather vague passages in a highly apocalyptic book called the book of Revelation this thousand year millennium. All right, so I don't think that I would personally follow that line of thinking that you've just articulated. I think the Bible is pretty clear that Jesus is going to come again one day, he's going to return a second time. But exactly the events surrounding that, when that's going to happen, I think we have to Be very, very careful, because in Matthew 24, Jesus says, no one knows the day or hour of my return. Not the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father, as it was in the days of Noah. So it'll be at the coming of the Son of Man. From the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage up till the time Noah entered the ark and the flood came and swept them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field. One will be taken, the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill. One will be taken, the other left. Therefore, keep watch, because you do not know the day or hour of my return.

[Jack]

Do you believe certain biblical stories, like Noah's ark, occurred exactly as it was written in the Bible?

[Cliff]

Yes, I think they did occur exactly as was written in the Bible. But the caveat there is make sure that you interpret fairly.

[Jack]

And where would you say your interpretations of the Bible differ?

[Cliff]

I don't know. Where do our interpretations of the Bible differ?

[Stuart]

Check me if I'm almost being heretical here right now. I would be open to the potential of metaphor as well as mixing with Egyptian creation stories up to Genesis chapter 11. And all of a sudden you get Abraham. We get all different forms of archeological evidence with what Abraham did and how the Israelites traveled and the supernatural that occurred. So am I open to the fact that the talking snake may not be actually a snake? Yes, I'm totally open to that. So somebody who pushes me really hard on. Well, now you're not taking the Bible seriously. You don't believe, for example, that the earth is just 6,000 years old. Come on, you didn't count up the years, Stuart? No, I think the Bible's silent on how old the earth is. I don't think it's a scientific textbook. So I don't think I'm blowing the Bible to pieces when I say potentially after Genesis chapter 11, that's when the actual literal historical events occurred. Am I wrong on that?

[Cliff]

Jesus says I'm the vine. Is he claiming to be plant life? Jesus says I'm the door. Is he claiming to be two pieces of plywood slapped together again? Jesus says if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. Is he calling for self mutilation? No, no, no, no. He's not claiming to be plant life. When he says I'm the vine, he's using metaphor to communicate a truth. I am the source of life. You better Be connected to me as a branch is connected to the vine. I am the door. You enter heaven, you enter real life through me. Not claiming to be a piece of plywood on hinges. Yes, he calls us to cut off our right hand. If our right hand causes you to sin, which does not mean literally cut it off. It means if I want to pick up a gun and blow you away, I better act like I don't have a hand so I can't pick up the gun. And I better work at knocking guns out of the hands of people who want to murder with a gun. And the same way I want to try and knock Satan out of people's hearts. But it doesn't mean I'm going to go up and knock Graham in the head. No, when I'm speaking metaphorically, I'm going to pray that you do trust in Christ, that you come to belief in God, but I'm not going to hit you on the side of the head.

[Graham]

Why is it so open to different interpretations?

[Stuart]

For 2000 years, the historic Christian church has followed an orthodox faith. So when you talk about 36% of the world being Christian, well, pew research, that would be defined as who Jesus was. Did he live, die, teach, and live out that teaching then actually rose from the dead. That's who a Christian truly was back then and is today. So, yes, it's at times frustrating, I think, for even for us, certain interpretations, for example, of predestination and free will. Why do so many Christians just chew each other up over those issues? Can it just be clear God? So, yes, that's frustrating. But for 2,000 years, I mean, you go right back to the early monks and what they passed on, or the church fathers, what they passed on, or the eyewitnesses to Jesus himself, what they passed on. It's all been consistent all the way down. It's been crystal clear. But the minors have been difficult and debated over. But that's why St. Augustine himself, the biggest church father who ever existed, said, in the essentials, unity, but in the non essentials, grace and bear with each other as you figure these things out, versus the Zwinglis and the others who said, oh, you don't believe in infant baptism. You believe in believers baptism. Okay, well, come here, we're going to drown you to death. And that happened oftentimes. So it shows how evil things can get. When you say, I have the truth on this minor issue, and if you don't buy into it, then I'm going to kill you for it.

[Cliff]

But I think you've asked a great question about communication. All right? When he was a little boy, his room was a disaster area.

[Graham]

He's calling you out, okay.

[Cliff]

Why do I use that word, disaster area? Because I want to communicate vividly to you instead of me saying, okay, when he was a little boy, the truck was over there. It should have been over here. The bed should have been made this way instead of just thrown together. Instead, I tell you, his room is a disaster area. And in a way, that is an ability I have to communicate more clearly. And you do the same thing. We use hyperbole, we use metaphor, simile, we paint word pictures, and we use language that if you were to take it literally, it would be ridiculous. His room is not literally a disaster area, but we use that kind of language to impress upon a person an image, to help them understand the main point. And I can promise you, if you go out and start developing a relationship with a young lady that turns romantic, I think if you keep everything black and white, everything mathematical, that relationship's not going to go too far. To communicate love, to communicate trust is a challenge when it comes to how you communicate that. And what type of images do you give to a person for them to mull over?

[Jack]

You talk a lot about how logic will determine that Christianity is the answer. What, what verse, what. What thing from text, what piece of evidence or advice or statement have you both made that you found to be the most effective at converting people?

[Stuart]

When Jesus is coming to heal Gyrus's daughter, Jairus doesn't know what to do with Jesus. He's heard that he's a miracle worker and healer. But Jesus talks about, hey, believe that this will happen. And Jairus says, I do believe, but help my unbelief. So for me, it's, I want to come check this Jesus out. See everyone in the Bible, even doubting Thomas, or, for example, Philip and Nathaniel in John chapter one, you know, Philip doesn't bash Nathaniel over the head. Neither does Jesus. Philip says to Nathaniel, come and see. Jesus says, come and see. Come and check me out. Don't just believe in me with blind faith. But that Jairus passage has always helped me because I've been a doubter. I've been a doubting Thomas my whole life, probably more so than my brothers and my parents. And yet that passage alone is Jesus is saying, hey, doubt all you want, but please come and check me out. And keep checking me out, but check out the alternatives too.

[Cliff]

Maybe I've miscommunicated. This would be a classic example of this whole Tricky issue of communication. No, you don't just logically come to Christ, come to faith, all right? You can't logically prove God. You can't logically prove Christ, all right? But logic is involved. Thinking is involved. What I mean is this. Jack, Jack, this pink elephant right here on my right hand, this pink elephant has brought my life meaning and purpose and joy and hope. I really hope you'll believe in this pink elephant. I hope you'll say, really, Cliff, what on earth is the evidence that the pink elephant is really here? And if I say to you, jack, I'll pay you $1 million if you believe in this pink elephant, although because you want the million dollars, you might say, okay, Cliff, I believe there's a pink elephant. You know that your mind will not allow you to believe in the pink elephant here because there is not a shred of evidence that the pink elephant is really here. So when we say that logic is important, what we mean is your mind will not allow you to believe something that is not supported by evidence that is contradictory to the evidence. Your mind won't let you do that. I don't care how much money I offer. You know very well that when you walk out of here, you're saying Cliff was nutso. There's no pink elephant on his right hand, so reason is important. I mean, think about it. Where does reason come from if there is no God? Reason comes from non reason. Why would you trust the thoughts of a monkey? Well, I probably wouldn't, Cliff. Good. But if my mind is simply a highly sophisticated monkey's mind, why do you trust the thoughts of your own mind? Now, in a sophisticated way, that's called epistemological nihilism. And it's basically the idea that why do you trust rational thinking if rational thinking comes from the irrational or the non rational or just a monkey? The reason I trust my rational mind is because I believe that my rational mind comes from a rational being, a creator, who gave me this rational mind. And that's what Einstein was enthralled by. One of the biggest miracles is that our minds have the ability to get in touch with reality. Why is there not a total disconnect between my rational mind and reality? And Einstein was enthralled by that. So that is what I meant when I say logic is important. It's not that you can logically prove God, but if you think clearly. And when I say think clearly, I don't just mean some philosophical argument for God's existence. When you look at your experience of life, Jesus Makes far more sense than any of the options. What do I mean? Well, I mean by that, when you get to know Graham well enough, you know that Graham's a great guy. You also know that there's some things about Graham that are questionable. And Graham will find out the same thing about you. Okay? And you'll find out the same thing about me. You've been very kind and you've talked about how nice guys we are. But I can promise you he's a sinner. And I can promise you I'm a sinner. And you get to know us well enough and there's going to be some selfishness, some greed, that's going to be embarrassing. All right? Now, when you look at the worldview that best describes how you can do great things and you can do some really warped things, Jesus answers that question. In other words, he describes reality as you experience it in a really profound way. Does that make sense?

[Jack]

He can describe it, but he still doesn't necessarily like it doesn't. It's immaterial and it's hard to adopt as someone who's open to it, but just skeptical. Something that can't be touched, it can't be seen, it can't be any of that. And sure, humans have a natural inclination towards spirituality. Absolutely. Because we do ask the question, why do we exist? And maybe some people get the answer when they have a child because, like, well, I exist to reproduce and to have a family and this and that. I like to think that it's more so in the wise words of Tom Bilyeu, he said this, which I love, Tom Bilyeu. He said, I exist to increase human flourishing and decrease human suffering. And so sure, the, the Bible might be a great representation of that set of values. And it's a great interpretation. It was very well ahead of its time and it's very intelligent and this and that. It's. It's so hard to trust something like that when you also have that get together and they increase human flourishing and decrease human suffering. And, you know, we have a natural disposition, I like to think, towards a little bit of good, maybe 51, 49 and over an expanded, A big enough expanded time horizon, then that will, you know, increase flourishing and decrease suffering.

[Stuart]

But who's to say again, what is good if there is no God?

[Jack]

Because back to Hinduism, flourishing as opposed to suffering.

[Stuart]

Well, but, but so then he's going to say that in Hinduism, when the husband dies and the wife is burned to death and her body is put on her husband's in A mass grave. They say that's a very good thing. So that's not flourishing for the woman, obviously, as we define it, but they would define it as, no, that's good. They need to go into the afterlife together. So for whoever he is, I believe he's ushering in. The Christian perspective on we are created in God's image, and God has created us to flourish and to help others flourish. And destruction, entropy, evil, those are all real intangibles, immaterial. And if you have the intangibles and immaterial, then that's going to push you to some type of spiritual realm and reality. And so what explains that spiritual realm and reality? Well, if there's only physical reality you can't explain, that's the atheistic worldview that's in no way going to connect and say, wow, there is a spiritual reality, but we all know there is a spiritual reality or something immaterial, for example, that you are communicating, which is, hey, look, the biggest questions of life are, where do we come from? What is our purpose? And where are we going? Biggest questions. At some point, every single human being that I know at least is going to ask those questions. So the typical college student is asking those questions, but there are definitely some who are saying, no, no, no, I'm just going to get through school right now. I could care less about those big questions, but they're going to have to ask them eventually. And so back to that person. It's equally valid and okay in my mind, if there is no objective good and objective meaning to say, well, who are you to tell me that flourishing versus destruction and not flourishing, why is that innately good or better? If there is no God, why in the world if I'm sitting on the top of a building and decide to throw my baby off of the top of that building, if there is no God, who am I to say that that's bad? But if there is a God and I'm throwing my baby off the top of a building, then that's morally, objectively evil and wrong. If there is a God.

[Cliff]

Another way to look at it is you're a really nice guy and you're an agnostic. And I would argue the reason you're a really nice guy is because you have a conscience given you by God. And your conscience and your rational mind enable you to understand this is really good and this is really evil. But the point we're trying to make, Jack, is there is no basis for an objective good or an objective evil. If there is no mind no God prior to the human mind. Because if there is no God, then we create good and evil. And they're not objective, they're subjective. Which means you might define flourishing today as giving him a meal. You're going to buy him dinner tonight.

[Graham]

That'd be nice. Jack.

[Stuart]

That'S a great idea.

[Jack]

Thanks a lot.

[Graham]

Thank you, man. I appreciate that.

[Cliff]

But if tomorrow you say that good is to stick a knife in Graham's back, you're not wrong. You're not objectively wrong, because right and wrong are just a relative subjective taste.

[Jack]

But you could, across enough people with the law of big numbers, get 7 billion answers to the question, is it a good or a bad thing to stab somebody?

[Cliff]

Good.

[Jack]

Kill them. Then you could determine, even barring, I like to think, Judeo Christian values.

[Cliff]

Yep.

[Jack]

If you just ask people, people that have no idea, people of tribes, and you're like, okay. And they're like, well, why? You know, what did he do? And they're trying to justify it. They have some sort of moral compass aside from, okay, it sounds like I'm saying something, that it's really good, and that's what I'm saying.

[Cliff]

That's exactly right.

[Jack]

Take enough data points, it might be 51 9, but.

[Cliff]

But you see the point. You're absolutely right. Around the world, it looks like we're reading off the same sheet music. When it comes to. Yeah, sticking knives in people's backs is not too good. There are some unfortunate aberrations from that. But the question then is, where does that understanding come from that indeed, murder, adultery are really evil?

[Jack]

Evolutionarily speaking, you could say that humans have learned that we work better as a community, and a rising tide lifts all boats. And so if you help out somebody, then you're bound to be better off. And I think humans, yes, while we are naturally a little bit selfish, I don't think being selfish is a bad thing. And I think that you can be selfish and help yourself because that's kind of a prerequisite to helping other people. And then eventually, if you're in a better spot, like, it helps the community and increases flourishing. And so we've learned, because we're smart enough, fortunately, that that's the. That's the way to do it.

[Stuart]

But just don't help somebody outside of your tribe. Well, that is selfish because it's hurting.

[Jack]

Your tribe if they're in direct opposition to your tribe. But if they're kind of just existing, then expansion of the tribe is never a bad idea. Like, you could. This is very hypothetically Speaking very theoretical. I'm just trying to like, yeah, yeah.

[Stuart]

But I think we have so much tribalism in our nation today, and that's only growing the extremism and saying, oh, if you're a Democrat, and I'm gonna completely look down on a Republican, or a Republican is gonna completely look down on a Democrat, and we're gonna shout over each other, we're gonna totally disagree on what is morally objectively right or wrong. Because so much, much of it has become subjective and so much of it is based off of just emotion. I'm just gonna emote and say, this is my view on things and you better get on board with my tribe or you're done with it. So when you have moral objectivity, which is immaterial, has to be given by something spiritual outside of the physical, well, now all of a sudden you're saying, okay, we can speak the same language. What is morally right and wrong? Now, we may have differences on small ethics and that sort of thing, but if you're going to take it from you scratch my back and I'll scratch your back. Yes, innately that is selfish because we have so many people in this day and age now saying, well, you didn't really scratch my back, so I'm done with you. You. I mean, I am done with you. And that yet again shows that our, especially our generation is living for self. It's all about self assertion versus sacrifice for others. Because if I'm truly living based off of this evolutionary cycle, again, it's strong, eat the weak, you're in my way. And so I'm going to dominate you in some kind of way because it's all about me.

[Graham]

How do you resist cultural influences like greed or lust or any sort of pleasures like that?

[Cliff]

Well, as a cultural influence, but it's also, as I've tried to point out to you guys, part of my sinful nature. All right, Nobody has to teach me to be greedy. Comes very naturally. Now, there are many examples, though, in my culture as watching the news and movies that influence me to be greedy. The advertising industry, et cetera. All right, so we've got myself, my sinful nature. We've got the culture, as you pointed out so well, Graham. We also have, I'm convinced, a personal being who's committed to evil, a spiritual being called Lucifer. M. Scott Peck, the great Connecticut psychiatrist, wrote a book called People of a Lie after he wrote the book the Road Less Traveled. And in his book, he's arguing that American psychiatry should have a branch of evil. But I really like this issue of motive and what really drives us. Graham, if you scratch my back, then I will scratch your back. Wow, that's pretty self centered, isn't it? You better first scratch my back and then I'll scratch yours. So we'll take a step forward. Graham, I'm going to scratch your back because I think that there's a higher probability that you will scratch my back if I scratch your back. Okay, we're moving a little towards more altruism, a little less self centered. Graham, I'll scratch your back regardless. Even if you don't scratch my back tomorrow or whenever, I'll scratch your back, okay? I think that's real love. I really want the best for you. I really want your good, okay? Now here's God's love. I'll scratch your back even if you stick the knife in my back. And that's what the cross of Christ is all about. God says you basically stuck the knife in my back, rebelled against me or ignored me, however we wanna to frame it. But I still love you so much that I sent my son Christ to bleed and die on a cross to pay the penalty for your wrongdoing, to forgive you. Now that's why I follow Christ. Really. It's not because the logic, it's because when I'm confronted by love, I'm confronted by reality on a depth that I've got to respond. Because to be honest with you, my relationship with him, with his mother, with our two sons, with our daughters in law, with our grandchildren, far outpaces any logic, any scientific principle. It really is all about love. And once again, here's where Jesus comes in. Jesus says, yeah, the real purpose of life is to love God with your heart, soul, mind and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. Bingo. My experience of reality is spot on.

[Graham]

Why is it then that Christianity has been declining for the last 50 years, 40 years? Why is that?

[Stuart]

It's growing faster than ever? Oddly enough, because you're probably talking about in the west. Because it has decreased some, but no, Christianity and Islam are going to take over the US soon. 60% of the US and so when I talk to Muslims, it's Todd, they know this on college campuses. They'll be like, yeah, yeah, you and I, we're going to take over the US largely because of immigration and growth in numbers, because generativity Christians have more kids than atheists and agnostics. So it's growing, but it's growing like wildfire in Africa, China, South Korea and Latin America.

[Graham]

Why is that?

[Stuart]

I Believe personally that that's connected to things like forgiveness. People are finding forgiveness, intimacy with God, who. A God who actually loves you, equality. So one of the fastest growing churches actually in the Middle east, started by females. Let's talk about risk. That was one of the fastest growing churches in Iran. And why did they start that church? Why did they become Christian? Because they said I was being abused by my husband. That religion says that men can do whatever they want to me. And I believe that we have equal value. And so I believe in Jesus Christ. And so they started this church and it just ballooned. So I think whenever there is tremendous martyrdom, whenever there is persecution, like in the underground church in China, there's gonna be 100 million Christians in China probably in the next five years. They're saying, I think the persecution is what's all of a sudden causing this explosion. And in Africa in the last hundred years, went from 2% to almost 50% Christian now. So a lot of it has to do with the poor. Jesus Christ calls the poor, frequently calls those who are humbling themselves. That's why you have the Sermon on the Mount, Sermon on the Plain. One is more so about humbling ourselves, actually, in such a way we're giving away money where we're sacrificing for others relationally, and the other is more spiritual on humility. So I believe it's ultimately God working. But people are starting to say, hey, a lot of these things, like, we are all created equal. A lot of these things, like forgiveness. You know, our buddy Logan Paul said, I love the. I love the value of Christian forgiveness and the principle of it. And he had to forgive somebody. That's why he said somebody was really wronging him. But he said, I love this Christian idea of forgiveness. And I think we've seen a decrease in it ever since we've adopted the philosophy of, you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. Because ultimately it's about, no, you better do this for me. I'm not going to really sacrifice for you and forgive you if you don't scratch my back. Because we've set this type of principle up in place, and that's dangerous. So others, though thousands of Muslims are becoming Christians in dreams. So there's all different kinds of ways that Christ is reaching people, and it's amazing how it's happening. And the Christian faith is still the biggest religion in the world. Atheism is declining in the US it's going to go from about 13%, they're saying, all the way down to 8% and, and so it's ballooning for different reasons. But it's really exciting stuff because I think you like, like you said, the principles of compassion, sacrifice, loving, all came from the Christian faith beginning early in the Roman Empire.

[Jack]

For someone that's never prayed before, how do you recommend someone go about their first ever prayer session?

[Cliff]

Prayer is simply the real you talking to the real God. The thing that I like to do is to teach people to draw up a chair next to them, an empty chair, nobody's sitting in it. And I encourage them to start talking to Jesus as if he was sitting right there in the chair. Meaning by that you have to dig deep, you've got to get in touch with who you are, with what's happening. And then you got to pray to the real God. So that means you need to read the Bible. That'd be very helpful to understand what the real God is like. Little boy was painting a picture and his dad said, said, who's the picture of? Little boy said, it's a picture of God, Dad. Dad said, oh, no, no, no, no, no, son. Nobody knows what God looks like. Little boy says, well, they will when I'm finished with this picture. So adults are a lot like that little boy. We like to paint God in our own image. I like to believe in a 6 foot, 1 inch white male God who likes basketball. Oh, that's interesting, Cliff. And yet so happens you're 6 foot 1 inch and you are white male and you like basketball. Wow. Isn't that interesting? No, prayer is not sort of constructing a God who I hope exists somewhere and then sort of trying to talk to him. No, prayer is the real you talking to the real God. And so the challenge is you got to ask the question, who is the real God? And that's where Jesus comes in. He claims to be revealing who the real God really is.

[Jack]

And what if you don't get an answer?

[Cliff]

Four answers to prayer. First answer is, no, I don't like that answer. But God is not the little cosmic bellboy who fetches my bags every time I ask him to. So the first answer is, no, Cliff. Second answer is, slow down, Cliff. Be patient. Third answer is, grow clef. I'm going to use this situation in your life to grow you in character spiritually. And then the fourth answer is, go, go. Yes. So I've got to allow God to give me all four of those answers.

[Stuart]

15% of atheists pray. So they don't believe in God, but they pray. So innately we have a desire to cry out whether we're in our pain. Or oftentimes, even when things are going well. For me, it's the Lord's Prayer. You can break it down into acts. A, adoration, adoring God, saying, God, you are ultimately worthy of my allegiance. C, confession. I apologize for being tremendously prideful at times. Yesterday I lost my cool on the basketball court. I apologize for my rage or my lust, whatever it might be. T is thanking God for. For things. Just thanking God. I mean, look at the psychological studies on gratitude. Gratitude is the healthiest thing you can really do. And then s supplication, that's when you ask for things. See, so many people think prayer is just shooting up flares into the air and saying, God, can I have this, this, this and this? Well, that makes me more anxious if I just do that. Anxious because I don't know how God's gonna answer or if he's gonna answer. No, prayer is all about not getting God just to answer all of my small issues. No, it's all about getting to know God and putting God in his rightful place, not treating him as if he's just my secretary who I occasionally go to to ask for things. Simone Vale said, prayer is all about attention. So we just talked about attention. How attentive can we be in prayer? Prayer is all about wrestling. I mean, every single example of prayer you get in the Bible, whether it's Habakkuk, Jeremiah, David, so many prophets and the kings, they are yelling at God in their pain, they are yelling at God in unanswered prayer. They are yelling at God when they're struggling with things, and they can't get over certain character issues. I mean, David in the watches of the night, he's dealing with anxiety, and yet he's saying, praise the Lord, O my soul, all my inmost being, praise his holy name. When I do that, my anxiety and stress is just alleviated for me. When I've been in the hospital before and they thought I was having mini strokes, all of a sudden scriptures came pouring into my mind. I just started praying. That was the only thing I could say. Actually. I wasn't able to speak. So prayer is something that's so guttural, it's so innate within all of us. We want to cry out to something. And the saddest thing for an atheist is a Christian can say, thank you, God, for what I have in this life. But an atheist has no one to thank for what they have in this life.

[Graham]

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[Jack]

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[Graham]

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[Jack]

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[Graham]

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[Jack]

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[Graham]

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[Jack]

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[Jack]

I really want to know, because we talked about a lot of forgivable sins. One thing that's always been interesting to me is the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the spirit. I don't really perfectly understand what that is. Can you help me understand what is the unforgivable sin?

[Stuart]

Yeah. If you can do a fistfight fight and you knock somebody out cold and they end up dying, and you were in a fit of rage when that occurred, and then you get knocked out and you die, well, are you going to hell? I mean, your last passionate act was killing somebody. Even if it was accidental, are you going to hell for it? No, it's no one thing, one sin that sends you to hell. Or if you're in a road rage incident and you kill somebody and you die at the same time, are you going to hell? I mean, your last act was an act of rage. Christ never says that, never points to that. There's no one single sin that sends you to hell. And so I'm not going to name a certain denomination, but a certain denomination when I ask them this question, hey, is there one unforgivable sin? And they say, yes, obviously. Where in the Bible do you get that sends you to hell? Nowhere. I mean, Elijah makes the point that it's not my life to take when he's. But nowhere does it say, is someone going directly to hell if they commit suicide. So the unforgivable sin, or grieving the Holy Spirit is living a life of hypocrisy, of saying, hey, Jack, you're a good buddy of mine, but you know what? I'm gonna cheat with your wife. Oh, I'm so sorry, Jack. Sorry I did that. Nope, I'm gonna do it again. So it's hypocritical living. That's why Keira Knightley, the great actress, said, oh, it'd be so easy to be a Christian. You could just live out the Christian walk and then break it and then go back to Christ, say, hey, I'm so sorry. Forgive me, and then just go do it again. No, that's cheap grace. That's playing a dirty trick, a dirty game with a relationship with the God of the universe. I mean, you would never treat Graham in that kind of way, would you? You wouldn't be friends. I certainly hope not. So it's cheapening the relationship. It's beyond cheapening the relationship. It's embarrassing. You can't have a friendship that way.

[Cliff]

Way.

[Jack]

So it's knowingly, just like consistently cheating on your relationship with God, essentially over and over and over and over again. Because I was kind of curious earlier in this conversation I mentioned, okay, well, as long as I know that on my deathbed I can go and I can, you know, ask for forgiveness, but I can lead a life full of sin. And I know I have, let's say, 60 more years where I can just go and, you know, succumb to all of my sin and desire, then I can still, like. Like, we're gonna end up in the same place. But you're saying if I'm making that calculated decision.

[Cliff]

Yeah.

[Jack]

And I have all the evidence and information, and I consistently just, like, cheat on my relationship with God, not with any of my friends, then that is blaspheming the spirit. That is going to 100. You can't. There's no forgiveness.

[Cliff]

Yeah.

[Stuart]

I had a friend tell me in high school, hey, Stu, let's keep smoking weed together and drinking as much as we can, and let's go sleep with as many women as possible. And then when we're in our late 30s and we're having kids, that's when we'll accept Christ. How do you know you're not going to die before then? And also again, it's playing God and saying, ah, God, you didn't really create me in your image. You didn't really create me in such a way where it's healthy for me to serve you and love others. So those are the two reasons. And you see the hypocrisy behind it. That's a type of grieve in the Holy Spirit, where I truly believe in God. But you know what, God, I'm going to live any old way I want to. And that gets back to a heart and motive issue. You know when you're going to say, hey, God, you know what? I know you tell me not to look at, but I'm going to look at it all the time, and I'm sorry, but I'm going to choose. I'm Just going to keep looking at hard. No, I think you're going to get to the point of saying this isn't just a slip up. This is me saying I'm going to be God and I'm going to make my own choices on how to live. And so that's where God is saying, be very careful.

[Graham]

Now what I'm curious about is how Christians discern against someone who is very sincere in what they want to get across and someone who's just seeking personal gain. I think a lot of criticism has been directed towards televangelists or people who have used donations to fund luxury lifestyles and private jets and mansions.

[Cliff]

Aren't they incredibly judgmental of those televangelists? My goodness, they know they got a.

[Jack]

Bad rap for no reason.

[Cliff]

I would argue no, they might be being judgmental, but when Jesus says in Matthew 7, 1, judge not lest he be judged, he's not saying, suspend your critical thinking and stop making analysis. No, if that tele evangelist is saying, I believe in Jesus and then they go out and sleep around, I believe in Jesus and then they go out and live an opulent lifestyle and could give a rip about the poor, that's a good analysis. We got a problem here. And that's why the word hypocrisy is vice's complement to virtue. Vice understands you claim to be a follower of Christ, you could give a rip about the poor. You are one stinking hypocrite.

[Jack]

At what point is amassing a certain amount of wealth like sinning is because I know, like gluttony kind of right would, would somehow play a role in that, I'm guessing?

[Cliff]

Yep.

[Jack]

Or some form of greed could probably play a role. But like is wealth in and of itself just in a vacuum a bad thing at a certain point?

[Cliff]

Point, nope. That's a very sensitive question, Jack. And the reason it's such a good question is because the sin that Jesus attacks most consistently in the New Testament is greed. The Bible consistently says not that money is evil, but that the love of money is evil. And yet it's amazingly easy in our culture to justify not being more generous and giving more away, keeping more for myself. And to be honest with you, Jack, you've just put your finger on, on the biggest ethical struggle I have. I'm a pastor. I speak to university students about faith in Christ. Why do I have as much as I do? Why don't I give my money more of it away? In light of the fact that we do have the solution for starving babies, give them money Buy food and feed them. Why do I not give more away? And that is probably the biggest ethical struggle I have, Jackson. So you're right. It's a very, very difficult issue.

[Graham]

Now, what about for the people who can't afford to give money to the church, but they feel compelled that they have to, otherwise they're not going to be in God's good grace. Or the people, let's say that maybe they're having trouble paying rent, but it's. It's a custom to pay 10% of their income to the church. Maybe they're struggling behind the scenes and they really can't afford to do this, but they feel like if they don't, something might happen.

[Jack]

The tithing money, like support those families.

[Stuart]

Yeah, exactly. It oftentimes does. We have a Samaritan's fund at our church, so we help out the poor, and that's tremendously important. But if you go back to the Old Testament, you know, you have the Levitical laws, It's more like 26% tithing, and then you have 10% in the new Testament, so you don't have this ironclad law again, that if you don't tithe, that's going to send you to hell. You look at the widow, very poor woman, gives away two might. I mean, that's a lot of her possessions that she's giving away. That's just sinking her into more poverty. Well, that's why Jesus talks about a joyful giver, giving in response to what he did on the cross for us, grows us in our own joy. You know, when you give away to others, I mean, talk about selfish. You can be selfish. It's one of the quickest ways to get happy is when you give away your money. Oddly enough, that's kind of strange. So. No, it's. I. I personally believe at times I have friends who've sunk into tremendous debt and I think they should wait to give. Wait till you slowly get out of some of that debt so you don't have to give that week. There's nothing in the Bible that says that.

[Jack]

How do you know when you're ready to give? The way that I just transparently see it is now, this could obviously come across as very selfish. I'm just trying to be transparent and honest, is that I need to take care of myself and have enough money invested to then be able to make sure that I'm able to take care of my family. I want to have kids and I want to have a wife and, like, lead a good life. And I want to give away money and donate, but in order to do that, I need to build up a certain investment portfolio that would allow me to guarantee, at the bare minimum, I can take care of my family. Like, but. But technically speaking, even if. If I'm earning an okay amount of money, like, I could be donating more of it. I do donate a little bit, but I know I could do more. But I'm also, like, really focused on making sure I guarantee, like, I'll be able to take care of those people.

[Stuart]

People.

[Jack]

What do you think about that?

[Cliff]

I think you've just shown us a tremendous example of discipline, a very healthy, good discipline. You need to discipline yourself financially, so you make whatever you make. I would encourage you to set in your own mind and heart the amount of money you want to give away. I would encourage you to save, as you said, you were looking forward to having a family. And then I would encourage you to adjust your lifestyle. And that's the hard part. For, I think, for most of us, I've got to adjust my lifestyle to live within my income so that I don't slip into debt. But I've got to be thinking about being generous. I got to be thinking about the future, and then I've got to think hard about adjusting my lifestyle.

[Jack]

I also, oddly enough, I could do the calculations, I think to myself, well, if the s and P500 grows at 10% per year, like, if I'm able to invest, you know, an extra 500 bucks a month instead of giving away $500 per month right now, like, the exponential value in terms of what I can give in the future, like that as a. As a true number will be larger than if I give away 500 right now and consistently over time, because I'll just be able to give more, like, relative wealth than if I were to just give right now. Is there anything like that? That's how my mind. Yeah.

[Stuart]

Well, it's interesting how in scripture, especially in the Old Testament, you get these things called the gleaning laws. And that comes over a long period of time where eventually you're supposed to lead a big part of your harvest and a good part of your harvest to the poor to come collect. And they were to collect it. See, so that's against socialism, certain laws when it comes to finance, because they're to collect it. It's not you giving it to them. They're to collect it. So that takes time. That's not weekly. That's not a type of weekly tithing. So I think you're kind of connected to these gleaning laws that happen, that happen more annually.

[Cliff]

That's interesting. And Jack, your discipline is outstanding because you and I live in a culture that says just pile up the credit card debt. So I commend you highly for that. And then I ask you, please read the Gospels, exercise discipline. Read those gospels. In order to determine whether Jesus is reliable or not, it takes discipline.

[Graham]

Jack's discipline is good, but his investing skills are not.

[Jack]

Color. I mean, he's not, he's not wrong, but he also, he is a little bit wrong.

[Graham]

Goes down okay, like the S P's down recently because he dumped in a large amount.

[Jack]

I told him the end of the year, you know, I'm thinking the next.

[Graham]

Day it's just down.

[Cliff]

He's your friend, Jack.

[Jack]

He's not wrong. In fact, I, I appreciate, appreciate that he's telling it to me straight. You know, I like to think I can pick out individual stocks and you know, hit it on the upswing.

[Graham]

Funny, I don't tell Jack what I invest in because I know as soon as he does, they go down every single.

[Jack]

But in fairness, I, I do like 95% of auto invest S&P 500. It just so happens if you ever see like a little blip in your portfolio. No, I just lump sum invested shortly before that.

[Cliff]

The day before.

[Jack]

Yeah, the day before. So SB500 guys. Not individual stock picking, just letting you know. And no credit card debt.

[Graham]

So I'm curious, going back to this, what has been the most difficult belief or concept that you wrestle with?

[Cliff]

The problem of suffering. John and I have a younger brother who lost a seven year old daughter in a horrible car accident. And he's a transplant surgeon. He was out transplanting kidneys and livers out and pancreas out at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. So I flew out there and walked with him around the field behind his house. And to listen to the pain over losing his little daughter was incredible. You know, so the question obviously then becomes, okay, the babysitter didn't see the stop sign. Drove right through the stop sign and a pickup truck at 55 miles an hour came careening down the road, smacked into the side of that car. Sending our little niece, his daughter, into an early grave. Okay, God, why didn't the babysitter see the stop sign? Why was the pickup truck coming exactly 55 miles an hour? Timing was perfect. Just creamed into the car power. See, there's a bunch of. I do not know, I don't know. But my faith in God, my faith in Christ is not based on the circumstances of life. It's based on the character of God. And that is why it's so important to read the Gospels, to figure out, is God really good? Because if Jesus revealed God accurately, God is really good in spite of all the horror, the suffering that life throws right into your face and my face.

[Graham]

So in a case like that, because I'm just trying to think abstractly, does everything happen for a reason? And if someone in that case goes through suffering, was that meant to happen?

[Cliff]

I would be very, very careful with that line of thinking. Yeah, everything happens for a reason. If I haul back and smack you in the face, Graham, as hard as I can, and then say, say, oh, God made me do it, or, well, there was a reason that I needed to do that. Be very careful, very careful, okay. No, I think that we live in a world where there are accidents, where there is great unfairness for where there is incredible chaos. And no, I am very loath to say, oh, there was a reason for this. We really don't know.

[Stuart]

Romans 8:28. God works together all things for his good, good. A lot of people will rip that passage right out of context and say, oh, yeah, see, there's a reason for it. You know, God has a reason. No, he works all things of the good and the bad ultimately for his great purpose. But that's not saying that he's bringing on the bad, bringing on the evil. It's not like Hinduism. That's saying, hey, my cousin, his niece, who died in that car accident, did something wrong. Because there's always a one to one connection to Hinduism. If you did something wrong, wrong, that's why you suffered. If you suffered, it's because you did something wrong. Atheism, secularism, it's not really that wrong. That's why C.S. lewis, the most reluctant convert, the greatest mind over at Oxford and Cambridge, said, originally I wasn't a Christian because I didn't think there was enough evidence. But then all of a sudden, I was really encountered with a lot of suffering. And then I really thought, if there's a God, he's definitely not a good God to allow suffering, suffering. But then I thought a little harder and started to reason with myself in saying, oh, wait, if I believe that this is really wrong, this suffering, well, then I'm ushering in a type of moral obligation. This is morally wrong. It's intangible. So there must be some type of spiritual, ethereal existence that actually says this is really wrong. Because from an evolutionary perspective, it's not really Wrong. You could say it's sad, but there's not real evil, there's not real suffering where it really should be wrong in itself. So all other is. Again, it gets back to your very first question. Why Jesus? Why would this make sense in a way that I should be able to grasp it? Well, what are the alternatives? You can't just look and just put Jesus Christ in the judgment seat on the dock. You have to put all the alternatives. And if you do so we believe it's not even close. We believe that the Christian worldview by far and away makes no sense.

[Graham]

What's the most challenging aspect for you to share these thoughts with non believers? And what are some of the barriers that you found that you have to overcome?

[Stuart]

Sex. It's always sex, really. I was talking to a guy at Yale and he just kept jumping all over the place. Oh, there's inconsistency in the text here. Oh, over here, Stuart, you know, you don't live a consistent lifestyle anyway, so probably I shouldn't believe. Believe in Christ. Oh, here he was doing the machine gun style. One, two, three. Kept going. And then I said, I think there's something underneath this. I think it's more of an emotional issue. You know, the question becomes, if Christianity were true, would you believe in it? Oftentimes people say yes, Oftentimes people say no. If they say yes, then it was an evidentiary issue that they had to. They believe it actually is true. So I better hold on to it. It's truth. If they say no, it's clearly an emotional bias. It's no. I still don't want it even if it's true. And so what this guy did, eventually, I said, okay, so you don't like the ethics. Which ethic do you not like? And he said, sex. I wanna sleep around as much as possible. I said, well, that's why. Exactly. It's an emotional issue for you. That's why you don't believe. Now, he didn't fully say yes, but he got to the point of understanding what I was saying there and started to really grapple with it. It's more of an emotional issue. It's more a volitional issue. How I'm living versus really dealing with the evidence.

[Jack]

When is the last time you both seriously doubted your faith? And what was that like this morning?

[Stuart]

Seriously?

[Cliff]

Well, yeah. Every time I sin, I'm doubting my faith. Every time I sin, I'm saying, God, you're not really good. I got a better idea.

[Jack]

You may, you know, I've expressed doubt in your faith by sinning, but maybe made an intentional like and, and thought about and wrestled with your faith. You know what I mean? Like something where maybe you were thinking about it for a few hours or a week or a couple weeks and you're like confused.

[Cliff]

I am self absorbed and instead of thinking about the other person, I think about myself too much. I mean, Christ calls us to live lives of service. Why is that so hard for me? Because I got real needs. And Jack and Graham and Stuart, you know, your needs are nice and I'm sure you've got needs, but my needs are more important. See, I've got to get to the point where I realize your needs are just as important as my needs. And that's why I'm going to serve you guys. I'm not just going to be self absorbed into myself. So that's what I struggle with on a daily basis.

[Stuart]

When we talked about the old, we've had a few. Gosh, how many debates have we had with atheists over slavery in the Old Testament? That's one. That's really, It's a hard issue. Yeah. I think done a job on our minds and hearts. I believe yet again that the theocratic law, the Mosaic law, makes by far and away the most sense when it comes to slavery in the Bible. I don't think the Bible in any way says that slavery is good. And yet there are a couple verses like in Exodus 21 that are, that are tough to wrestle with. So that would be one.

[Cliff]

Okay, that's a classic example. When I first was hit with a slavery issue, I know, I remember exactly where it was. It was University of Texas Austin. A bunch of grad students were really after me. This was years ago and it was a whole issue of the Bible does not come out and just flat out condemn slavery right from the beginning. And you know, I said, okay, fine, I hadn't really thought about it. So I went back and talked with some Christians who are far more intelligent and well read than I am. And they helped me begin to work it through. But I still struggle with it. It was still hard for me, me. And it's been now 40 years since that time. And the more I've thought it through, the more I am at peace with it. The Bible never endorses slavery. The Bible never recommends slavery. The Bible gives us instructions on how cultures where slavery was rampant are to handle it. And when Paul writes, slaves obey your masters, he's not saying that slavery is good the same way. If you say to me, cliff, I just Entered the armed forces. Should I kill someone with my gun? And if I give you an answer, I'm not saying all war is good. I'm not even saying the specific war you're fighting in is good. I'm saying you've enlisted. Obey your commanding officer. But then I'm going to go on with a caveat. But if your government calls you to kill someone in order to keep gas prices low at the pump, you better be a conscientious objection. No. Don't kill anybody. So this whole idea that the Bible is pro slavery, I mean, baloney. The second greatest miracle in the Old Testament was God and the Exodus delivering the Hebrew slaves out of Egypt. And what Paul writes in the letter of Philemon is, hey, Philemon, I'm going to jerk your chain, buddy. I met your runaway slave Onesimus in prison. I led him to faith, and now I'm going to send him back to you. And you're not to accept him back as a runaway slave. You're going to accept him back as a brother in Christ. And if you got problems with that, I'll pay.

[Jack]

That's really interesting. And I see a lot of parallels between that and other things I see online or things I've gotten hate for online, which is, I'm saying a statement of fact or a piece of guidance or advice that isn't a moral statement.

[Cliff]

Bingo.

[Jack]

It's just a statement like, exactly. If I'll. I can go to someone and say, you should take supreme responsibility for your life. Take agency over your life. If you're ever in a bad situation, think, what can you do to better your situation situation. Then people online will think, oh, well, you're not sympathetic towards the environment around them that puts them in this really bad situation. I'm like, I'm not even considering that because it's like, that's out of the question. I'm just trying to help.

[Cliff]

Thank you.

[Jack]

And so I, I see that a lot.

[Stuart]

Yeah.

[Jack]

And that's a lot of hate stems from that. It's like you. Everyone sees everything as a moral statement when I'm just making a simple statement of very good.

[Graham]

Why does it seem like hate is increasing? Is it just because it's. It's what's shown online? Or is, is there, is there a.

[Stuart]

Reason this great sociologist from Notre Dame named Christian Smith, he talks about how as we're losing the concept of sin in the US the more hate is coming into play because no longer do we realize, hey, you mess up all the time. I shouldn't be shocked by that I mess up all the time. You shouldn't be shocked at that. One of the greatest things he's ever said to me was don't be surprised by somebody's sin because I get surprised all the time. Oh, you snubbed me. What the heck? I thought we were buddies. I thought we were colleagues. What's going on here? And so Jonathan Height out of nyu, another great psychologist, sociologist, said that we were all born self righteous. All studies show that. And so it goes back to, hey, I'm not really a sinner, I've got this right, you've got that wrong. And because of that, hey, I'm going to hate you if you do wrong things, if you do bad things to me. So as that leaves, I don't think as the doctrine of sin leaves, are we necessarily going to have a great purge here in the us I don't think all of a sudden everybody's going to bring out guns and knives and just start killing each other. Do I think we could head in that direction? Absolutely. And that's what he says, because all of a sudden moral obligation will break down. All of a sudden you created the image of God, me creating the image of God, that's going to break down. So I'm going to demonize you in any kind of way I want. I'm going to judge you in any kind of way I want. And it's my truth. Your truth is your truth, My truth is my truth. So it's just subjectively, morality just breaks down, sexual confusion, it's breaking down left and right. And so this idea of hate faction, all of these things are growing. Tribalism, all these things are growing. And it largely has to do with, with America's concept of sin was right there from the beginning with our founding fathers, everybody was clear on we are all sinners and yet we are all equal, created in the image of God. All of that is broken down. And as pastors we encounter people all the time. Sin, that's a dirty word. I don't even know what it is. So that's what Christian Smith, the sociologist at Notre Dame, puts out beautifully. And I think it's true.

[Cliff]

The reason I like the question is because it's a classic example of why agnosticism, practically speaking, is impossible. Because I will either hate you or be apathetic towards you, or love you. And the way I respond to you shows my worldview. It shows do you have innate value or do you not? And if you don't have innate value and you rub me the wrong way, there's nothing wrong with me hating you. That's what you deserve. But if you're a human being created in the image of God, and if there is a God who created me to love you and to love my enemy, shoot, I got no choice. Hatred is wrong. I must love you, even though that's the last thing I want to do.

[Jack]

I'm curious, in terms of the self absorption, has that been something that you've had your entire life?

[Cliff]

Oh yes, absolutely. That's why I agree with CS Lewis when he writes in Mere Christianity that the great sin is pride. The great sin is self fascination, self righteousness. I am the greatest. We've talked now for about an hour about me. Let's change the topic. Let's talk about my career. Now it's all about me. And that's why Christopher Lasch wrote the Culture of Narcissism. We are just become narcissists because it makes sense. It's all about me. I mean, if there is no God at the center of the cosmos, it is all about me, my life and how much I can get, how much I can use you manipulate you to get for myself. But if there is a God at the center of the cosmos and it's not all just about matter and energy and money and pleasure. If I was really created to care about you and to bring good into your life, and if that's a moral absolute, then I better get off my lazy backside and start working for your well being and not be so selfish absorbed as I too naturally am.

[Stuart]

I was watching this morning with my daughters a certain movie that was. It was a cartoon, but it was all about this girl fulfilling her own dreams and getting other people out of the way. Because I'm gonna fulfill my own dreams and aspirations. Every narrative in our culture today is about our own dreams and aspirations and becoming an authentic self. Hear it all the time. That's everywhere. So no longer your earlier point, Graham, of living for nation patriotism. If you look historically we used to live primarily for God. Then it shifted into the 30s, 40s and 50s. Strong sense of patriotism. But now it's all about the self. Living for the self, self absorption. So you're supposed to be self absorbed and it's a good thing. People oftentimes look, but why wouldn't you? No, no, no. It's all about your career path. Just live for you. If anybody gets in the way, get them out of the way as fast as possible, possible. And so what that's creating is back to why do so Many college students perhaps find what we're talking about attractive is because they are hurting due to this narrative, because you think it's helping, you think it's going to bring about your own personal happiness. Right? My pursuit of happiness, because it's all about me, I'm going to get there. But you never really get there. It actually the more self absorbed you are, the more prone you are to depression, anxiety and severe stress. And so, so many of these students who, whether it's DMs, emails, whatever it might be, that's typically what they'll say to us. They'll say, hey, look, thank you for helping me with my pain. That's connected to my self absorption and depression. Because self absorption is high self esteem and low self esteem. I don't know about you guys, but you know, when I, I was an all American in sports, I had high self esteem, but then after graduating I didn't have that anymore. So all of a sudden I had low self esteem. All right, you're being just as arrogant and prideful whether you have high self esteem or low self esteem because you're just obsessed with yourself. So, so many of these students that we're talking to, as we point to Christ, as we point to God, they're coming out of their pain and learning, hey, it's not all about me. And when they do that, they find hope, joy and peace.

[Jack]

So I could be also equating incorrectly self esteem with like happiness or joy. Because if I'm getting what you're saying, it's like you are supposed to detach your happiness and joy from accolades, achievements, where you're at in life. Is that true or is that a. Yeah, misrepresentation.

[Stuart]

Yeah, it's, it's the whole idea of born a man, died a doctor, you lost yourself, you know, you're a doctor, you were just living for your career, career. And oftentimes those people are the most miserable and arrogant. And so no, it's very healthy to live for accolades in one sense. But I certainly hope we're taking the number one commandment in the Bible seriously, which is love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Because every happiness study points to if you truly want happiness, you're going to worship God, a God, they would say day, and you're going to serve other people.

[Graham]

And where do you differentiate between confidence and arrogance?

[Stuart]

Yeah, for me personally, I think confidence is all about getting off that self esteem home run track. You know, if I'm really feeling Like I knock it out of the park, then I am just high prideful. It goes to my head. But then all of a sudden if I start to fail, if I lose a job, if my kids or somehow I feel like failures, then it goes to my heart and I feel like a total failure. So confidence comes with getting off of that type of rat race and getting onto forgetting myself. And when I forget myself and live for God, now all of a sudden I'm not going to have low self esteem. I'm not going to have high self esteem. Instead my pride is just going to be over here. And here I am living for God and other people. People. And that's when I'm functioning in a way where I'm truly confident. And that's a healthy confidence rather than what culture says, what positive psychology says. I won't name any names. It says, no, no, no, you know, puff yourself up, talk to yourself. And the more you puff yourself up, okay, great, maybe you get out of your depression, out of that type of self talk, but you also become tremendously arrogant.

[Cliff]

An excellent example of this is what's happened after these college football bowl games. So many of the coaches and the players have been saying, all glory to God, all glory to Jesus Christ. Okay, now that does not mean I'm not going to go to practice tomorrow and I'm not going to get as prepared as I can be for the next rung of the competition to be number one in the country. But what it does mean is my confidence is in God. My confidence is in Christ. Meaning by that my value comes from Him. My purpose comes from Him. Him. I'm going to honor, seek to honor him ethically as best as I can. In other words, I am confident about what God has called me to do. My confidence is in him, in the gifts and talents he's blessed me with. My confidence is not. I'm the best. You all can bow down before me.

[Jack]

I like getting your moral value from something other than yourself. For I also don't, I don't like adjudicating right versus wrong. I don't want to bear the responsibility of knowing like what is the morally right thing to do do in a certain circumstance. Like I'd rather like ask my dad or I'd rather like ask my mom, you know what I mean? Or like ask someone else because I don't want to make the wrong moral decision. So that's, that's, that's kind of nice. I know that you've spoke to a lot of people on their deathbed which is very interesting. That's not something a whole lot of people get the opportunity to do. What are some of the common threads.

[Stuart]

You'Ve seen when they read scripture? They break down crying and they've. A lot of them haven't read scripture in their entire lives. Maybe when they're really young, from their parents. But there's something about the power of scripture that is a little more powerful than Shakespeare and other beautiful works that I believe God is speaking directly to people's hearts through. I truly believe that the reason why the Bible has been the best selling book every single week since its inception in the world, there's a reason for it, something about it, it. And I would say it's because it's God inspired. And so when I see these people breaking down in tears if you just give them a little bit of scripture, you think, why is that? What, what's going on there? Because it oftentimes surprises me. And they could be from many worldviews.

[Jack]

What about regrets or other things in their life? Even if it's removed fully from religion, Just trends. You've noticed patterns.

[Stuart]

Yeah. The biggest questions and concerns that people have on their deathbeds are could I have loved better? Could I have given more money away? And what did I do with my relationships? How much time did I spend with my family? Those are the biggest three questions that most people deal with. And we have the opportunity of saying, hey, look, you got some serious regrets. What worldview gives you an opportunity to get rid of those regrets? Better than a worldview that says it's all about Jesus's grace and forgiveness. And it's nothing that you could do or have done so good or bad, that makes you higher in the eyes of God. Because it doesn't. It has nothing to do about our works. It's how we respond to him. So for us helping somebody understand that, look, Jesus Christ died on the cross for you. He suffers with you. There's no other suffering God had out there. So when Paul talks about we are all new creations, the old is gone, the new has come. That's when people experience hate, peace. And it's not about what I've done.

[Graham]

How do they come to grips with death?

[Cliff]

I've had several situations where there has been real anger and there's been real despair. I'll never forget in a hospital near here going to a room. And the man was not real pleased to see me. And his daughter was there and she was not real pleased to see me. But he had a son who really wanted me to be there. So in honor of the Son and his request, I went. But when I raised the issue of Christ and God, the guy sat up in his bed, waved his fist like that, and then fell back. And so I knew I had to be very quiet. I could not say a lot. I wanted to respect the man and his beliefs. And yet, if you're gonna be intellectually honest, that leads to despair. Because death is the end. We all know what happens when we die to our bodies. They rot. And the whole idea of life after death is a fantasy. If there is no supernatural God, no, we become fertilizer. And that's truth. That's accurate. So it's very infrequent that I meet someone who's willing to. To logically take atheism to its logical conclusion, which is despair. But I have the utmost respect for the great philosophers like Nietzsche, Camus, Arthur, who pointed out, the only question you got to answer is why not commit suicide? I mean, why keep living if it's all a crapshoot, if it's all ultimately meaningless, why continue to suck wind? And I think that to be intellectually honest, if you're agnostic or atheist, you have to ask the question. It's not that you have to commit suicide, but you got to ask the question, why should I continue to suck wind? Why should I keep going? Because it all is over when I die. And that is why the resurrection of Christ is crucial. And that is why I respect Christians who struggle with doubt, who struggle with fear of death, as they're beginning to realize, I'm not going to be on this earth much longer. But they go back and study the resurrection. Did he really rise from the dead or did he not? If he did, wow, there is life after death. If he didn't, wow, I'm not sure there is life after death. And if there is no God, there's definitely no life after death. You don't talk to people who come back from the dead. When you're dead, you're gone. But if there is a supernatural God, then it's possible. And often for me, when I do funerals, it's hard because I'm standing there in front of a casket, it. And the family and friends are around, and I'm trying to communicate. Because this guy put his faith in Christ, because this woman put her faith in Christ, we're going to see her again one day. Those of us who've trusted in Christ, we're going to see them again in heaven. And at times I doubt. At times I'm Sitting there saying, are you sure of that, Cliff? I mean, this is a dead body in a casket. You really think you're going to see this person again? But all I got to do, Graham and Jack, is look up and consider the vastness of the cosmos. If there is a supernatural being who created the cosmos, it's not stupid to believe there's life after death, because that's peanuts compared to creating the cosmos. In other words, if I meet a woman or a man who can bake bread from scratch, they're a very talented chef. It's stupid of me to think, can they really toast a Pop Tart or a bagel? Well, of course they can. They can make bread from scratch. Well, if God created the cosmos, of course God can bring a resurrection body together, life after death. So, see, so much of this comes back to, is there a supernatural God or not? And has this supernatural God revealed himself in Jesus Christ or has he not?

[Graham]

Have you ever had any supernatural experiences or anything that maybe you've seen that you just can't explain?

[Stuart]

When my grandma was dying, his mom, all she could do in her final moments was quote scripture. She couldn't speak Friedrich Nietzsche, who was, let's just say, a strong atheist. Same thing. He couldn't speak any other words than quote the scripture he was taught and memorized when he was a little boy. So he hated the idea of God, but he went to his death quoting exactly what Christ talked about. So my grandma, obviously opposite from Friedrich Nietzsche, she's had one of the strongest faiths that I've ever been around. But that was one of the closest supernatural experiences. I've had a couple, but that was one of them. Seeing her quote scripture as she was passing out of this life and how she couldn't really say anything else. I thought, whoa, God is in this place. Like, there's something going on here that's pretty powerful, awful. And how interesting it is that memorizing scripture, even if you're an atheist, actually, studies show that, and these are from secular studies, show that it pushes away Alzheimer's, and it's actually tremendously healthy for your brain, unlike memorizing other things. So, again, I don't know what that is. I'm not sure that maybe that's a supernatural piece as well. So I think the power of scripture itself and how it comes out of people, especially on their deathbeds, is. Is a supernatural thing.

[Jack]

If you could ask God one question, one question, what would it be?

[Stuart]

So he asked this to strangers all the time. All the time.

[Cliff]

So exactly you're asking it.

[Jack]

What would you. What would you ask?

[Cliff]

What would I ask?

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Cliff]

I would ask why did you not intervene and have the babysitter stop at the stop sign instead of having her just having him just cream through the stop sign and have my niece die. Die at an early age. The problem of suffering.

[Jack]

And what do you think he would say?

[Cliff]

Oh, a lot. A lot. And I think, you know, one of the. One of the first points would be, Cliff, the reason you're outraged over the death of your niece is because you know how valuable life is. If life is trash, if life is insignificant, and if love is just a chemical reaction, you wouldn't be so hurt and so outraged. I mean, just think about it. Grief. What is grief? Grief is loving someone and losing them. If you don't love them, you don't grieve. And if you don't lose them, you don't grieve. But if you really love someone and you lose them, you grieve and it hurts big time. Well, is love real or is it just a biological chemical reaction in the brain? And if it's just a biological chemical reaction because there is no God and it's all chemistry and chemicals, what are you doing, Cliff? Live out your worldview. Be intellectually consistent. If that really means so much to you that your little niece died, don't get bitter against God. Thank God for her. Thank God that you're going to see her one day. And thank God that love is real and love is really what it's all about. Not trying to figure out how you could have created a better universe than God did, where your niece would get killed at an early age. I mean, it is so arrogant. When the student at the University of Arizona said to me, well, if I was God, I could have created a better universe. Oh, come on. You're not that knowing. You're not that smart. I hate to tell you that you could create a better universe if you were God. Give me a stinking break. That is the height of human arrogance. And the reason I know that is because I didn't have a good answer for that student. I said, and I called up my brother, who had just lost his daughter in that car accident. He said, excuse me, you're talking to a university student who says, if I was God, I could have created a better universe. And one of the key parts in there is free will. I mean, to love demands free will. If we're just robots, we don't love. Love is a free decision. To care about someone, to be compassionate, you don't have to love. I don't have to love. And so God creates us with a free will, in a sense, limiting his power. And obviously that's a risk that we would abuse that free will. And that's what sin is, the abuse of the free will. And it has horrible consequences. But it'd be that issue that I would. The issue of suffering.

[Stuart]

For me, it'd be, why hasn't Jesus returned yet, God, why. Why haven't you sent your son to earth yet? With all the. With all the suffering, with all the pain, with all what's going on? Isn't it time to return? But we have many friends who say he will be returning and it will be on January 23rd. And I don't agree with that. I think even. Even Jesus didn't know the day or hour. I think that's pretty clear. And yet there are signs that point to it. And Romans 8 talks about groaning that we see here in this planet and obviously revelation. A lot of people try and take that literally. But we want Jesus here, I think now.

[Graham]

When do you think that would happen?

[Stuart]

When? I have no idea. If he doesn't know, I definitely don't know. But it makes a lot of sense when he came first, that's when the greatest trade routes were beginning. That's when the power was going on in Rome and eventually literacy as well. So made a lot of sense when he came, and I think so it'll make a lot of sense when he returns.

[Graham]

Thank you so much for your time.

[Jack]

Thank you guys. This has been such a pleasure in your beautiful home too. Thank you to the audience.

[Graham]

Appreciate it.

[Jack]

An audience of three people listening to us right now, family members. So once again, really appreciate it. Great coffee, great sugar cookies, great podcast. Thank you guys for watching.

[Graham]

Make sure to like and subscribe. Flew all the way over here to make this happen.

[Jack]

We'll link their stuff down below in the description. Check it out, too. Thank you so much. Until next time.

[Cliff]

See you.