Spend Your Money NOW - Before It’s Too Late! (Bill Perkins Final Warning)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Spend Your Money NOW - Before It’s Too Late! (Bill Perkins Final Warning)"

Published on July 6, 2025, on "The Iced Coffee Hour" podcast hosted by Graham Stephan and Jack Selby.

---

1. Introduction to Bill Perkins' Philosophy

The episode features Bill Perkins, the author of "Die with Zero," who challenges conventional financial wisdom about saving for the future. Perkins introduces his core belief that the fear of wasting one's life outweighs the fear of running out of money.

Notable Quote:

Bill Perkins [00:45]: "You're afraid of running out of money. I'm afraid of wasting my life."

---

2. Contrasting Views on Saving and Spending

Graham and Jack Stephan discuss their differing approaches to money management. While Graham is highly frugal and prioritizes saving for long-term security, Perkins advocates for prioritizing fulfillment and experiences in the present.

Notable Quote:

Graham Stephan [02:28]: "I would say probably 80% fear, 20% optimization, right?"

Bill Perkins [02:36]: "Fear is a great thing that we have... But it doesn't help you thrive, it only helps you survive."

---

3. Bill Perkins’ Journey and Financial Success

Perkins shares his background as a commodities trader in natural gas, emphasizing the importance of mental fortitude and curiosity in achieving financial success. He highlights that trading requires a stoic attitude to handle losses and stress effectively.

Notable Quote:

Bill Perkins [04:53]: "I wanted to be rich. I wanted to chase the girls. I wanted to live the rock star life."

---

4. The Concept of "Die with Zero"

Perkins delves into the philosophy presented in his book, advocating for maximizing life experiences over accumulating wealth. He introduces the idea that money should be spent in alignment with one's biological age to ensure that experiences are enjoyed while health and vitality are at their peak.

Notable Quote:

Bill Perkins [10:07]: "It's about your biological age and your body decaying. So your net worth peak is not a number, it's a date."

---

5. Balancing Spending and Saving Across Life Stages

The discussion moves to how individuals should allocate their financial resources throughout different stages of life. Perkins emphasizes the importance of aligning spending with activities that are most fulfilling at each stage, such as adventurous pursuits in the 20s and 30s versus more relaxed activities later in life.

Notable Quote:

Bill Perkins [16:08]: "It's your biological age, not just the numerical year you were born."

---

6. Critique of the FIRE Movement

Perkins critiques the Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE) movement, arguing that it often leads to a robotic pursuit of money without genuine fulfillment. He contrasts this with his approach of consciously allocating resources to maximize life satisfaction.

Notable Quote:

Bill Perkins [23:35]: "It's suboptimal, like the point of saving... Delayed gratification indefinitely is no gratification."

---

7. Impact on Children’s Upbringing and Financial Decisions

Perkins discusses the importance of teaching children the value of money in relation to fulfillment rather than mere accumulation. He warns against providing excessive financial resources that could stifle creativity and the development of essential life skills.

Notable Quote:

Bill Perkins [80:14]: "My goal is to give them the value system and the answers to help them navigate the world and then to let them go out and make their own mistakes."

---

8. Personal Anecdotes and Experiences

Throughout the episode, Perkins shares personal stories that illustrate his philosophy. From his early days of rapid wealth accumulation to his ventures into movie production and infrastructure projects, he underscores the lessons learned about prioritizing experiences over financial gains.

Notable Quote:

Bill Perkins [56:26]: "I tried to do a big, large infrastructure project... It was rigged. I vaporized a ton of money."

---

9. Maximizing Fulfillment Through Experiences

Perkins advocates for investing in high-ROI experiences that foster connections and personal growth. He highlights activities like wake surfing with friends, hiking, and traveling as means to generate lasting memories and fulfillment.

Notable Quote:

Bill Perkins [42:23]: "I have a wake surf boat. It's the highest ROI thing I bought because you can put 16 people on the boat... It's a memory maker in spades."

---

10. Final Thoughts and Recommendations

In concluding the episode, Perkins encourages listeners to consciously plan their lives by determining their desired experiences and allocating financial resources accordingly. He emphasizes the importance of living intentionally to ensure that one's limited time and resources are used to their fullest potential.

Notable Quote:

Bill Perkins [44:41]: "What do I want out of this ride? Before we spend a nickel, before we even think about the money, what do I want out of this ride?"

---

Key Takeaways:

• Immediate Fulfillment vs. Long-Term Savings: Perkins challenges the traditional focus on saving for the future, advocating instead for maximizing present-day experiences.

• Biological Age Consideration: Financial planning should account for one's biological age to ensure that money is spent when it can yield the most fulfillment.

• Critique of FIRE: While the FIRE movement emphasizes early retirement through aggressive saving, Perkins argues it can lead to a lack of genuine life satisfaction.

• Balanced Financial Planning: Allocating resources should be aligned with personal values and desired life experiences, rather than solely on financial accumulation.

• Teaching Children: Instilling a value system that prioritizes fulfillment and intentional living over mere financial success is crucial for the next generation.

---

Note: This summary intentionally excludes advertisement sections interspersed within the transcript to focus solely on the meaningful content of the conversation.

Transcript

[Bill Perkins]

This is the way it feels to.

[Graham Stephan]

Move through summer in Lululemon iconic aligned.

[Bill Perkins]

Softness without the front seam for our smoothest look and feel ever, summer won't know what hit it. Stretch your limits in the non stop flexibility of the new Lululemon align no line pant in select stores [e-mail] I don't give a about saving. I don't give a about spending. I care about fulfillment and thriving. We have all learned to focus on.

[Graham Stephan]

Saving your money for your golden years.

[Bill Perkins]

But our next guest says actually do the opposite.

[Graham Stephan]

I've read your book probably five to six times because I am the exact opposite.

[Bill Perkins]

You're afraid of running out of money. I'm afraid of wasting my life. You are living in fear of something in the future and robbing yourself of your current life. Delayed gratification indefinitely is no gratification. And unfortunately your body has a vote and it's going to decay and you will not be able to get that gratification to the extent you can now.

[Jack]

I mean, Google lists your net worth at over $100 million. So some people are going to comment that it's not just that easy for.

[Bill Perkins]

Those who are like, have average intelligence and lots of hustle. There's so many ways to make money.

[Graham Stephan]

What's your advice to people with a low income?

[Bill Perkins]

Like, if you're very poor, the first step you're trying to do is.

[Jack]

Bill Perkins, thank you so much for coming on the Ice Coffee Hour.

[Bill Perkins]

It's good to be on.

[Jack]

We have two lives and the second one begins when we realize we only have one. What does this quote mean to you?

[Bill Perkins]

It means that I think a lot of people behave as if they're going to live forever or they're going to get a second life, like in video games. And when you realize that you only have one life, one ride on this planet, you begin to take it a little bit more seriously. You begin to care a little bit less about what other people think. And you begin to dive deep and chase after what you really want out of this ride.

[Graham Stephan]

It's interesting because I've read your book probably five to six times in total. It's the one book that people keep telling me to read through because I am the exact opposite of everything that you describe in the book. I'm extremely frugal. I like saving money at all costs and I like delaying gratification. For me, I get a lot of peace of mind knowing that like 30 years from now I'll have enough versus living it up today.

[Bill Perkins]

Right? But Is that a fear based thinking or is that an optimized for fulfillment type thinking?

[Graham Stephan]

I would say probably 80% fear, 20% optimization, right?

[Bill Perkins]

And so fear is a great thing that we have, right? It keeps us alive, it keeps us from being eating bears or lions on the, on the Serengeti when we were, we were in tribe, right? And prevents you from getting mugged or, or whatever it is, right? But it doesn't help you thrive, it only helps you survive. You're surviving, right? But you're not thriving. And you're not thriving in probably one of the best periods of your life where you have your health and the ability to take advantage of everything that's around you. Whether you want to go hella skiing, swimming, et cetera. Your health is not gonna limit you. Your mental acuity is not gonna limit you. Um, if you wanted to go to school or college or spend money on that, your lung capacity isn't going to limit you. And so you are living in fear of something in the future and robbing yourself of your current life.

[Jack]

Your life has led you to have this very interesting philosophy around why you should spend money while you're young, right? Instead of saving for the delayed gratification for those unfamiliar. How did you make your money?

[Bill Perkins]

I started making money as a broker of commodities and then really made significant amounts of capital as a commodities trader in natural gas. And so that's where the money came from.

[Graham Stephan]

How do you learn how to do that? How do you learn how to trade natural gas and profit from it?

[Bill Perkins]

I think you have to be a person that is unafraid of risk, has kind of a stoic attitude about things in order to take the losses and the stress associated with it. I think most people have the intelligence to be a trader, but they don't have the mental fortitude to be a trader. And then you just have to want it. And so what I wanted to shorten a story is essentially to be able to exchange a few hours of my time for a lot of hours of everybody else's time, right? That's what money represents, is your time, right? You spend time doing something and you acquire this thing called money, which is fungible for other people's time, right? And their goods and services. And so I wanted to be rich. You know, I wanted to be rich. I wanted to chase the girls. I wanted to, you know, live the rock star life. You know, that's what a, a young me, you know, know, those, those are kind of the goals, right? Like on autopilot, right? Of what do I What do I think I want out of life? But I didn't want to have to choose or be frugal or not buy Starbucks. I wanted to not even care what the price was. I wanted to have enough resources to exceed my wants.

[Graham Stephan]

And so in that case, are you trading your own money, or are you working for a firm that gives you capital and you're trading that capital and getting a percentage of the asset?

[Bill Perkins]

Both. Both. I, I'm a, I rent out my brain, and I, I get a percentage of the money that I make for other people. So some people, you know, they, they, they rent out their bodies, they do manual labor. I, I, I'm a mental.

[Graham Stephan]

But what set you apart that you were so profitable at doing this? Like, why were you different than everyone else who's tried doing this and failed?

[Bill Perkins]

I think it's a curiosity and stoicism. So the, the ability to handle losses and still be able to think through things basically gives you an edge. And that's not necessarily in trading. That's in life and romantic relationships, et cetera. When things are going wrong in romantic relationship, the person that's, like, going crazy or things are really bad in a relationship will have reactions that are not necessarily helpful, and those things add up and a person's a little bit calmer, will think through things, try to come to resolution, will do things that are accretive to the relationship or healing to the relationship. And so that's huge in any field. The other thing is just being very curious and dedicated to it. So you're very good at what you guys do here. You spend a lot of time and effort. You're curious, you're, you're looking at how other people do things. You're incorporating things at work, you're experimenting. You just become better at something.

[Jack]

How did you cultivate this stoicism? Because for me, right now, like, it's easy to be stoic when things are good. But right now with, like, the tariffs and this and that, and I see my portfolio, I'm like, oh, my gosh.

[Graham Stephan]

This is just, he refuses to even open.

[Jack]

I don't look at my account because I've realized that that's the best way that I can remain stoic in times like this. But if I do check it, I can notice myself getting a little bit emotionally connected to the outcome. And I know that's, like, for an investor, not what you should want. You kind of just have a method. Yeah, tried and true method. How did you cultivate this stoicism?

[Bill Perkins]

I think one training, just reading Books, the Daily Stoic, looking at the quotes, et cetera. Just kind of like repeating that, but also losing the ego. Losing the ego attachment to the result and learning to enjoy the ride and the process and just kind of sticking with that and being okay with being broke or looking like an idiot or looking like a fool. And so I, I kind of developed that over time. You know, I was kind of trained in that as a kid in the environment I was in. And so you just learn not to care what other people think, including yourself, and then you're just kind of detached from all this, like, fear.

[Jack]

What do you mean trained as a kid? Like, how were you?

[Bill Perkins]

I think, you know, I'm, I'm an old guy, right? I, I was born in 69 and I'm like post civil rights kid, where the world was a lot different place growing up. And so there was overt racism, like TV shows and, and stuff that was going on then, right? Would just be completely banned or shut out right now. And when, you know, I say this, like, when people have kind of like this idea of who you are, let's say you're racist against Indians or blacks or whatever, right? You learn to know that that's not true. I can either accept that and adopt that attitude or not give a what other people think. Now, little did I know at that time, right, that I was being trained to not give a what people think. Right. At all, right? Because it doesn't matter what you do or what you say or, you know, I don't need to prove myself to those other people, right? They have their opinions and that's on them, right? And you, you read books like Don't Take It Personal, that kind of quote out of the Four Agreements, one of my favorite books of all time, if anybody asks me, what's the best book on trading, I go, the Four Agreements. What's the best book on this? The Four Agreements. That is a superpower. The don't give a type of people. I don't care what other people think, including yourself. Because a lot of the negative talk that people have comes from themselves.

[Jack]

So how did you actually go and, and make changes from what you were reading, though? Because a lot of people, they face adversity like that, or just adversity in general, and it spins them down. The negative consequence, that sort of life, rather than the taking it and turning it into a positive, like, why, what made you any different?

[Bill Perkins]

Nobody learns piano overnight, right? So if, if, if, if I say, hey, it'll be really great if you ever play piano. You're like, yeah, I, I really want to learn piano. This is great. And I come back the next day, I'm like, you're banging on the piano. Like, this is terrible, right? Like, you're not gonna learn a knife. I come back in a week, you still have it in a month, still haven't learned it. But if you keep at it, right, over a course of a year, you're gonna be like, holy, this guy can play piano. And he's pretty good. And so I say that to realize that whatever behavior you're trying to acquire, whatever mindset you're trying to acquire, you're not gonna learn an overnight, right? Like, these habits take time, and you have to stick with it. And so when you say, like, how do you acquire? It's just practice, practice, practice.

[Jack]

So despite all of your challenges and adversity, I mean, Google lists your net worth at over a hundred million dollars. And I just have to ask, like, are these Google estimates based in any sort of reality?

[Bill Perkins]

Not really. I mean, you can, you can influence what the estimate is. You don't, you kind of don't want your, your net worth out there is, is. Has it been north of $100 million? Yes, it has been.

[Jack]

Has it been? But with these tariffs recently, it's going down.

[Bill Perkins]

Things have been, yeah, I mean, I, I, I get, I get smashed on days just like the everybody else, right? Like, it's going up and down. I'm looking, I'm like, oh, I have to spend less this year, or maybe a lot less from the next five years, you know, or, or I get to spend more, you know, over the next five years or next year. You know, what's interesting is in your.

[Jack]

Book, you say that you have to pick a time in your life where you want your net worth to be.

[Bill Perkins]

At its peak, correct?

[Jack]

And then after that, then your net worth should decline as you age, which is completely counterintuitive to a lot of people. They're like, you should always be growing. And as you're growing, you can always just continue scraping a little bit more off the top. What was your age that you picked that you wanted your net worth to be at?

[Bill Perkins]

It's right, it's right about now. Right about now. And so that can change, right? Because it's your biological age, right? Like at the end, like, if we could just do this simply, like the day before you died, you don't want your net worth going up, right? You want to spend everything you got, but unfortunately, your body decays. It doesn't just die Right. And so long before that, you'll be doing less things and have less use for money, right.

[Graham Stephan]

So in terms of your net worth, was this intentional to pick right now or was this because the market was going up so rapidly that you couldn't spend?

[Bill Perkins]

Has nothing to do with market has, has to do with your biological age and your body decaying. So how do you test this is the, this is one of the hardest parts. Like, like, this is reasons why it's not a strict formula. You have to understand like there are people smoking heavily overweight, et cetera, at 40 who should be spending like rock stars, right? And there are people who are five years older than me who are like, hey, you're actually still on plateau, right? Like they're running Ironmans, they're, they're running marathons. There's like they have the body of a 30 year old, right? And they're able to do all the things, right? And so it's really based on like, how are my knees functioning? What's my lung function? Do I have cardiovascular disease? What's my lung capacity? You know, what's my VO2 max? Am I able to go to Paris and walk seven miles and really enjoy Paris, or am I going to walk one mile? You know, know my parents, my mom, it's like, it's. A lot of people have parents where it's hard to even get them on a plane for, for 10 hours. They don't need any money for traveling, do they? Right. Do they need that international ticket? No. Do they? You know, so you can see the utility their ability to convert their money into experiences or into fulfillment declines as you age. Right. I'm just giving you a couple examples, and that really depends on your biological age, not just the numerical year you were born. And so a lot of that is just, you know, there's this whole quantified self crowd that, you know, optimize for health, like the Gary Breckers and Peter Attias and Huberman's of the world, et cetera, you know, which Peter TIA is my doctor. You know, we do all the stats, et cetera. And I'm like, okay, you know, I'm a bad boy. Yes, I should be doing more cardio, but given where I am, this is kind of the things I'll be able to do over the course of my life. And this is what the last 10 years of my life is going to look like.

[Graham Stephan]

So based on that, how long are you expected to live for?

[Bill Perkins]

I think I'm a 76 to 84 guy. 84 is probably what the charts would say.

[Graham Stephan]

I've heard for anyone who's under the age of 50 now, that they could live past a hundred with. With modern.

[Jack]

With AI and medicine merging and.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, could. And everybody with a biology textbook could get an A in biology. But that's not how it goes, does it? You know what I mean? Like, these coulds.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Bill Perkins]

Are, are, are. Are just like what is achievable, not what human beings do. Right. It's like, oh, why. Why do some people get A's and ones. Why do some people flunk out? Right? Like, they just don't. They're not, they're out of compliance. Right. They don't do their homework. They. They have other priorities, et cetera.

[Jack]

Well, regardless of whatever Google says, you've done really well for yourself.

[Bill Perkins]

Correct.

[Jack]

Made a great living. When did you first become rich versus when did you start to feel rich?

[Bill Perkins]

I felt rich before I became rich, and I think it was around 25. When, you know, when you started feeling rich? Oh, no, before that. Like 22. As soon as I made more money than my mom, it was like the best day of.

[Jack]

You felt completely.

[Bill Perkins]

Oh, my gosh, you couldn't have told me. I was like, what sort of lifestyle?

[Graham Stephan]

What sort of lifestyle?

[Bill Perkins]

And the funny thing is I was still living at home with my mom, not paying rent. I was just about to move out to. To. To the, to the pizza oven that I lived in with Jason Rufo.

[Graham Stephan]

But you felt richer then or now then?

[Bill Perkins]

I mean, just the feeling of just like, just the, the upward trajectory, the rate of change in my life, which is so great. And going from straight broke to like 50 something thousand dollars.

[Jack]

That's how much you made?

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, something 40, 50, whatever the number is. I was like, oh, I'm a buppy. That stands for black urban Professional. For those people who don't know, there's yuppies and buppies. And I was just ecstatic. Ecstatic. I had extra discretionary income. I could take a girl on a date I could pay for. It was the best feeling. And I think it was like late 20s, 28, 29. I was rich, you know, millionaire.

[Jack]

So you made millions between the ages of 22 and 29?

[Bill Perkins]

Yes.

[Graham Stephan]

What did you do with the money?

[Bill Perkins]

I didn't really do much the first time. I didn't, you know, I was so inculcated with the hive mind culture. Right. I didn't know what to do. Go to Vegas, hang out with friends, go to bars. Right. Like, I didn't really think about what do I really want? Right? I was advertised a lifestyle that I thought I wanted and I, I followed that, right? And I was also very obsessed with natural gas trading back then. I golfed, I hung out with other traders, I went to Vegas, I chased girls, I did those things.

[Graham Stephan]

You know, why natural gas over anything else you could be trading, I think.

[Bill Perkins]

You know, I, I serendipitously was a peon on the New York Mercantile Exchange. And the natural gas contract was just starting then. And I looked into it and I was like, this is the, this is the future new commodity, not that many people into it. Place where, you know, there was legacy crude oil traders, right? Like, and this growing efficient fuel was the wave. And I was like, oh, this is where I want to go. And I could, you know, in theory, make a bunch of money.

[Graham Stephan]

And when did your perspective on money begin to shift?

[Bill Perkins]

There was a book called your money or your life, you probably read it. That completely changed my view of money and what money is. And so if you've read the book, you know that one of the definitions they use that they, they say holds up all the time is money is something you exchan. Exchange your time for, right? You change your life. So there's a lot of what I, what I think are didactic exercises, very painful, but you go through them and then you have a visceral understanding of spending your time for money, right? They, they ask you to count every single nickel and penny that comes into your life, then count every single hour and minute you use in order to achieve that money, right? Take the taxes out and there's your net true hourly wage. And you've done that, right? You've done that painfully for a period of time. And then after that you get rid of the dollar signs and it just becomes hours. So whatever you buy is in hours or minutes of your life. And you do that for a while and you go, holy. You really get in touch with your values, right?

[Graham Stephan]

I did that exact same thing. I must have read that book when I was 14 or 15 years old. And I started looking at every single purchase as hours of my life. But that caused me to not want anything because I would look at like a Starbucks coffee and I'd say, I have to exchange 45 minutes of my life after tax to go and buy one coffee. And that coffee might last me 30 minutes, right? So I'm spending 45 minutes for 30 minutes. That's a bad deal. But maybe I could buy a pair of shoes for one hour of my life and I get those shoes for a year. That seems like a pretty good trade off for like, physical things that last.

[Bill Perkins]

I went the same way as you. I went super frugal the first when I read it. Um, and the other thing is, it's not, it's not about the, it's not about the, the time equation. Like you. Some of the most enjoyable things in your life will only last two minutes. I'm winking at some of the guys out there. One minute. All right, so, so, so it's, it's really about, it's really about the yield on fulfillment, right? Like, because I, you know, around that time I started thinking about, like, what is it all for, right? There were lots of, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a millionaire in lower Manhattan, right? And I'm busted at the time and I was thinking like, well, I want to be rich before I'm 30. Which I think a lot of people say that, right? And I think in that statement is kind of this understanding that the ability of them to enjoy the money or convert it into meaningful experiences declines as they age. Nobody says, I want to be a millionaire by the time I'm 86.

[Graham Stephan]

Now, when it comes to the Iced Coffee Hour, I just want to say that short form content has been one of our biggest drivers of growth on the Iced Coffee Hour. Like even, even this episode with Bill Perkins will often clip up the most memorable moments and post them as shorts throughout TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, you name it. But let's be honest, it also takes a lot of time to do it correctly. That's why tools like our sponsor, Opus Clip are a game changer. And right now, they're celebrating their two year anniversary with a huge giveaway. They're giving out a $5,000 cash prize, exclusive swag, and even a MacBook Pro to one lucky winner.

[Jack]

Opus Clip isn't just a clipping tool anymore though. It's a full AI powered video editor built for creators. It can automatically pull in long form YouTube videos, find the best moments, add captions, B roll, and even schedule clips to post while you're away. It's basically like having an entire editing team, but built by AI. Top creators like Jubilee and Dharman are already using it and we use it too. I mean, do you see this clip Togi's reacting to right here? That clip was made by Opus Clip and everyone who joins gets free credits just for participating. All you have to do is go to Opus Pro slash Clip the Hyphen Future right now to learn more and enter the Contest again, that is Opus Pro Clip the hyphen future or click the link down below in the description. Seriously guys, getting clips is extremely expensive and a very long process. But you could just use Opus Clip and get them done instantly for a fraction of the cost. So I highly recommend it. Thank you so much to Opus Clip for sponsoring this episode.

[Bill Perkins]

Nobody says, I want to be a millionaire by the time I'm 86 or 72 or 73, right? It's always before I'm 30, Forbes 30, under 30, under 40, whatever, right? Some age that's below 40. And when I was walking around lower Manhattan looking at these very wealthy traders, I was like, yeah, but what's an extra million going to do for them? I mean, what are they going to do? Drive a nicer car, their kids to school in a nicer car? Where's the fun in that, right? Because I'm a young 20 something limbic system driving all my decisions. Like, how are you going to get any more girls with that? You can't take any girls on a yacht when you got kids. You got to drive them to school, right? But aside from my goofy thought process, like I had something, right? And that was basically the, the utility of money declines as you age to the individual. Like, I'm not an institution, I'm not gonna, I'm not like the United States of America or Swiss Bank. I'm not gonna last 200, 500 years, right? I got an 86 year ride, maybe if I'm lucky, right? And unfortunately that ride isn't at a consistent health. It's like I'm gonna reach physical maturity, mental maturity, and then I'm gonna plateau and decline. And so I'm like, holy, I gotta get rich fast so I can really enjoy my life. And it's like, what's the purpose of getting rich? Like in that all those, all those questions are going on, right? And so that's when I started to think like, wow, at a certain point the reward goes away, right? Obviously when you die, but even before that, right? Because like you're in a nursing home and everybody's seen, they've had parents, et cetera, you know, or grandparents that are like, can't really convert that money into meaningful experiences, right? Aside from survival. And so I was like, holy, there, then there must be a curve. There must be a utility and money curve. And then when you start thinking about that, like, wait a minute, if you're going to go to work and exchange hours of your life for money and then you don't convert that Money into experiences, Right, whatever. And experiences in the broadest sense. Choice choices, right? Whether it's buying a watch or building bridges for poor people or et cetera, then you essentially waste your hours every life, and that's the only thing you got right. And so, and I'm ben to think about, then there must be a derivative on this. There must be a peak. If I'm supposed to spend it before I die, there must be a peak. Is that peak a number? And I'm like, wait, wait, no, no, it's not a number. It doesn't matter what the number does. It doesn't matter what your net worth is. It's focused on your health and the decline rate of your health. And so your, your net worth peak is not a number, it's a date. Right? It has to do with your health and your age. And so that's how I came to that conclusion. Very, you know, I'm condensing it down and leaving some things out, but that's when I was like, holy right? To be grinding out in your 70s to make more money for a party at 80 is absurd. Yeah, right. It's easy to point it out that way with those two numbers, but it's equally as absurd. You know what we were talking about earlier, what you're doing? Like, you know, when I became very frugal, my boss, you know, I saved some money on like no salary and my boss called me a idiot. I was like, wait, what? You know, and I ping ponged on autopilot to the other way. I began spending money crazy. Which is not what you want to be doing either. That's not what I'm advocating for. What I'm. What I'm advocating for is people that think about what are the things that they're. Fulfill them and, and what they think those experiences they want to have on their way to the grave, whether it's in your 20s, 30s, 40s, etc. Or break them down at five years, period, see what they are, right? And then go out and pursue those.

[Graham Stephan]

What would you say to the people who get more fulfillment from saving than spending?

[Bill Perkins]

Let's assume they're my very close friend. Because I'm at the end of the day, I can't tell you. I can't tell our addict that one's bad for them. I mean, I can tell them, right? But you know, they're like, you got a problem? I don't have a problem.

[Jack]

Right.

[Bill Perkins]

Like, you know what I mean? Like, you have a problem with my. You know what I mean? Those are people with saving. Right. But at the end of the day, what I try and point out is like it's suboptimal, like the point of saving. Yes, there is some hedonic value to know you're doing the right thing, et cetera, but the purpose of delayed gratification indefinitely is no gratification. And unfortunately your body has some, has a vote and it's going to decay and you will not be able to get that gratification to the extent you can now. And so the purpose of working is the reward and the reward is not the token. The token is useless. Who gives a you care about the experiences that it's going to afford you the life it's going to afford you. Like builders don't really give a about hammers and saws except to the fact that it helps them build houses. If they didn't, they'd throw them away. And so imagine you had a, you know, people that are just saving money to be saving money are just collecting hammers and saws to never build a building.

[Graham Stephan]

What if they're collecting options in terms of they're collecting the ability to have the choice to do whatever they want.

[Bill Perkins]

I think that's great and I think there is a place for saving. But those options expire just like you will. And not only will you expire, this time period will expire. So it's not just the one death you have, it's the many deaths you have. The single you, the you without kids, the you with small kids, the you with kids out of the house, the you that can actually sprint, the you that will never sprint again and for the rest of your life. Right. I'm just pointing out some random. There's lots of them. Right? Yeah. And so in each period of your life, certain activities, choices are optimal, you know, and in certain periods they don't transfer well or they don't transfer at all. And so depending on who you are and what you want to have out of your life, when you get off autopilot and you think about what experiences I want to have in my life, then you know, you can allocate your funds correctly, you can save for the things that are, you know, you, you get the spend burn ratio. Right, Right. But just to say I'm preserving options, like who gives a, like what option you're saving for? List them to me, tell me what they are. To have this nebulous thing is just fear based thinking and just trying to justify it by saying I'm saving for options. I'm like, you're full of. You just haven't really done the homework about your life. You haven't really thought about what you wanted out of life. And you're hiding behind this like, I have a bunch of money thing to justify the laziness of not really getting off autopilot and thinking about what experiences you want to have in each period of your life, right? Like the purpose of the money, right. Is for your fulfillment, right? And part of the fulfillment is planning the activity, doing the activity, and then reliving the activity and talking about the activity. Like before we got on, we were talking about your wedding and how you thought it was great and he was saying, hey, you thought you could have made it better if you loosened up a little bit, right? And so when you talk about your wedding and it was great, etc. You're getting fulfillment from that, right? Zero cost fulfillment. How did you pay for that? You pay for it earlier when you spent the money and now you're reaping the dividends. And so if you delay gratification pretty far enough, you don't get that many memory dividends. You get less fulfillment.

[Graham Stephan]

Although really quick, before we go into that, you have to ask yourself the question, what makes a leader stand out? Because it's not just about taking charge, but about setting new standards and embracing bold moves. That's why if you lead by example and live with passion, then our sponsor, the Range Rover Sport is made for you. Every model of the Range Rover Sport offers a unique blend of dynamic sophistication and sporting luxury. It's where refined elegance meets visceral power. With focused on road performance and world renowned off road capability, this vehicle rises to every occasion.

[Jack]

Experience the adaptive off road cruise control that adjusts to your terrain and dynamic air suspension for superior agility and control. Plus adaptive dynamics ensures smooth, composed handling by minimizing unwanted body movements. For those who elevate their desires and lead by example, the Range Rover is much more than just a vehicle. It's a statement. Discover today@Land RoverUSA.com Once again, that is Land RoverUSA.com with a link down below in the description. Thank you so much to Range Rover Sport for sponsoring this episode. And now back to the podcast.

[Bill Perkins]

Less high score and less ability to do some of those activities.

[Graham Stephan]

Now this might be oddly specific, but where do you draw the line for opportunity cost? If you're in an area or time of your life where you're where your time working hours are really valuable, whereas in the future you don't think you're going to have the same ROI as you do today?

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, that, that's like these calculations are tough and everybody's going to have to, you know, that's why these like variables come in there. But you just want the mental model, like, how am I thinking about this? This is okay, 25, I can take three ski trips when I'm 30 or one ski trip now because I'm going to give timeout, like what is a better deal for me, right? You might say, well, I'm going to be 30, I'm still physically fit, right. I don't read physical maturity until 33. That's a great return. And I still get many years in a memory dividend. I'm going to grind it out and have three trips later. Plus, as a young male in your 30s, the sexual power dynamics, you know, I'll be able to meet a lot more girls as a 30 year old with my together as opposed to a 25 year old without my together. So you might make that decision when you're 60. You might not make that decision saying three trips at 65 versus one trip now. I don't know, my knee hurts, my back hurts. This might be my last, you know, ski trip. I might not even be able to ski. You know, the friends that are with me that I would go, that actually add to that enjoyment. They might not be around. George is 70, he might be dead. You know, whatever it is, like I'm just making up these, these scenarios. So that thought process, right, like not kind of that autopilot, like, oh, I'm just going to save, save, save, save, just thinking it through. And so I think like a 25 year old will have a lot of arguments and probably tilt towards like, hey, I'm going to take three ski trips later and Mr. 60, 65 year old might be.

[Graham Stephan]

No, speaking of death, when is that something that you started to consider? When did that start creeping in that all of a sudden your life isn't just going to last forever?

[Bill Perkins]

It was, it's, it was kind of early but more profound, you know, when I started thinking about like money, its purpose, books like your money or life fulfillment and, and kind of like where are you going to get the maximum enjoyment out of your life? Where's most of your fulfillment going to come for your life? And so I thought it was like being aware of your death and that you're going to expire kind of like cuts through your ego, right? Like if, if you're in a, you're in a plane crash or like you were terminal disease you know, you're going to die, you're going to have great health, but you're going to die in a year. Like, it's going to cut through all the ego and you're going to live the life you really want to live, right? You're going to do the things. You're going to say that I love you, you're going to take the risk, you're going to do all the things because you're going to die in a year. And so, you know, you don't live each day as if it was your last. You live each day with death in mind in the future, right? The things you do now are actually influenced by the day you die. It's just a little bit more remote, right? Because a day before you die, you would do certain things, the two days before you would die through certain things, a month before, a year before, etc. And so on. And so how you behave, whether you save the risks you take, the things you do are really influenced by the day you die and the deterioration rate of your body, right? It's just an integral, right over time. And so being aware of kind of the idea of, like, when you're gonna die, you know, getting a range of that date and your health is extremely, extremely important for you to have the courage to implement, you know, this holy. I'm not going to be as rich as I was last year. I need to convert them into experiences. Like, I need to live the life I want. It, like, kind of forces you to live and take it seriously. Like when you're on vacation and the vacation, you know, it was never going to end. You might never. Like, when I lived in New York, I never went to the Empire State Building. I never went to all these stores unless somebody came in town, because I could always do it, right? But then when it came in town, it's like, oh, they're here for a weekend. They take. They go see the things, they go to the plays, they go whatever. They take full advantage of New York. And so I think kind of life is that way. A lot of people think, like, it's always going to be there. I'll always be able to go to Japan. I'll always be able to do X, Y and Z. Later in life, these things are going to happen, right? And then they. They let their lives pass them by.

[Jack]

One thing that is. Is a bit of a taboo topic, but would you say money buys happiness? I've seen, like, I'd rather be crying in a Ferrari than a Civic. What do you think about that.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, I. I actually think it does. But you need to know how to use it. You know, you have these Chuck E. Cheese tokens, right? And you need to know how to the desk and exchange them for the comb or of the doll that Chuck E. Cheese. And it's kind of like a joke. But what I'm trying to say is, is that going back to the hammers and saws, right, It's a tool. And so I can give you all the power tools and all the things to build a house, but if you don't know how to use those tools, you will not build a house. And so I can give you a ton of money, right? And if you don't know how to use that tool called bunny to build a life of happiness, then you won't. You'll just have a bunch of money. And so what you find is when people point out examples of like money ruined this person or money didn't make them happy is generally they did not know how to use the tool.

[Graham Stephan]

When do you feel like it starts tapering off? In terms of satisfaction with money, is there a point of diminishing returns?

[Bill Perkins]

I think it's person specific. Money for all the things you want, plus a little bit more, right? So that depends on the things you want. And what happens is with money is that you discover a lifestyle and things that you want that you never knew. Like you don't come out of the womb knowing that you like chocolate and you hate onions and I like France and I don't like Thailand or whatever, whatever the mix is, right? You go out in life and you can discover the things you like and you want, right? I remember when I never wanted to leave Jersey City. I thought it was the best place in the world and I never want to leave. Why would anybody leave Jersey City, right? Went out, discovered like what a idiot I was. Nobody needs more than $150,000 a year, blah, blah, blah. Make $250,000, have 00 left over. You're like, oh, what an idiot I was. I can really use $250,000. That's even being efficient and frugal like you, right? I could still spend it. Then it becomes a million, right? And so when you say the average person, it's very easy to pick a number that's like double what they have or triple what they have or 2,000 income. Then you meet somebody that making $5 million years, et cetera, and you're like, it's not even close, right? It's not diminishing at the Same rate, you know, And I think it's when the person is now having capital that they'll never spend and living that life. Right. You could just point it out. They don't even realize it. Right. But you can just point it out. Then. Then we're at enough.

[Graham Stephan]

I saw a study on CNBC that actually said that in order for people to feel rich, they need double from what they currently make. And they found that across pretty much every single income group, whether you make a hundred, 200, if you make 200, you need 400, 500, you need a million. Yeah, that just kept going.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah. They. People are not finding the concept of enough. Right. Like, they're not in touch with what they want. And part of that, which I think is going on is they're discovering the world. Right. You don't know what it's like to be on a super yacht until you can afford to rent a super yacht. And then you're like, holy, I would like to be on a super yacht a lot more. You know, I need to make more money to rent super yachts. Right. And so, you know, and it's like, I'm actually much happier on a super yacht than I was not on a super yacht. Right. And I'm getting fulfillment out of it, etc. I didn't know I like to travel as much as I did. I didn't know I liked Japan as much as I did. I didn't know I liked X, Y and Z. And so I think part of that is going on. But also people just aren't having a concept enough, Right. Like they, you know, there is. That is not taught here. It's not part of the culture. The concept of enough. Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

I think Tai Lopez was telling us that 10 million was the point of diminishing returns, where everything beyond that point, you start getting a little less than what you could get going from like 0 to 10.

[Bill Perkins]

That wasn't true for me.

[Jack]

I thought it was like what he said was a few million, single digit million.

[Graham Stephan]

That was, that was per year income.

[Jack]

Oh, $10 million in terms of net.

[Graham Stephan]

Net worth.

[Jack]

Okay.

[Graham Stephan]

Or $2 million a year was optimal if you want to do like 99% of things that you could do that was enough to buy it.

[Bill Perkins]

I went to Thailand and I saw people that were visibly, like, I felt were extremely happy and more fulfilled than I was at the time that I went that were at, like, fractions of income or like, close to no. And I've seen scenarios where personally, like, I'm happy, I'm very Grateful. Where I'm at, I live in. I live in gratitude. I. I can't believe the life I get to live, but I'm like, oh, I can convert more into more fulfillment and more happiness. And so, you know, I'm not gonna cry if I go back to, like, sleeping on a couch. Right. I'll be like, it sucks, but I'm going to have a great life and I'm going to get as much as I can out of this life no matter where I'm at with the resources I have. But if I'm giving more resources, I'll know how to use them.

[Jack]

I agree with. With travel being a massive, like, opening of the third eye, like, when I. It's interesting because a lot of the time that we spend now, Graham, with like, our friend group and stuff like that, like, we're around people that for the most part, have, like, comfortable financial lives. And then when I went to travel in like, Southeast Asia and like, Manila, Philippines and stuff like that, like, I saw a completely different, like, way different than the United States too. Like, like low levels of, like, poverty in United States is completely different.

[Bill Perkins]

Right.

[Jack]

Than, like, low levels in Southeast Asia. And for me to see that and a lot of the times it seems like they were. They were pretty content with, like, for me, that was just like. It was mind.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Mind blowing.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah.

[Jack]

And it completely, like, reshaped my entire understanding of, like, you know, what is needed in America?

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah. It's not. It's not need. Like, when we left the caves, we left living in a world of need. We live in a world of want. We don't operate on a need basis. We operate on a want basis. And so a lot of the questions for us in the Western world is like, what do you want? What do you want your ride to look like?

[Graham Stephan]

What do you think are the biggest mistakes that rich and poor people are making when it comes to their money?

[Bill Perkins]

Not realizing that they're whatever it is, like, it's a tool for their life, for their fulfillment. Right. They're realizing that, like, if you're very poor, the first step you're trying to do is survive. Right. Like, once you have survival covered, the rest is your choices. It's like, what kind of ride do you want to have? Right. How do you want to live your life? And so I think a lot of people think that money is a goal and it's not. It's just one variable out of, like, the three macro variables. Your wealth, your health and your time. Right. To drive fulfillment. Right. And so I Think people get that formula backwards?

[Graham Stephan]

And what would you say are the highest ROI ways to spend your money? Although really quick, I just want to mention that our sponsor, Notion, has helped keep us running smoothly on the Iced Coffee hour. We've used it for everything from guest planning, tracking, sponsors, keeping our schedule organized. It is the glue that keeps us together.

[Jack]

And now with Notion AI, it's gotten even better. So we were honestly just really stoked when they offered to sponsor this episode.

[Graham Stephan]

Notion AI is all in one AI powered by your work and all in one place. It automatically captures meeting notes, instantly finds the exact content you need, drafts detailed documents for you, and lets you chat with the best AI models. Notion AI also just became twice as powerful for teams, making it the best AI tool for work.

[Jack]

And with AI meeting notes, it is just so easy. All you have to do is type slash, meet and it starts transcribing the notes immediately. And then when the meeting is over, you get a clean summary and suggested action items. It is absolutely perfect for keeping track of decisions, ideas, or even podcast interviews, just like this one.

[Graham Stephan]

So whether you're in school, managing work calls, or just trying to keep your thoughts together and organized one place, Notion AI helps you remember and act on what matters.

[Jack]

So try it for [e-mail] Iced coffee. All lowercase. Seriously, guys, we have used this for years. I even used it in college when I was 18, 19 years old. I was using Notion. I absolutely loved it. If you're not using it, you're behind. And it's absolutely free to try [e-mail] Iced Coffee. We also have a link down below in the description.

[Graham Stephan]

Try it there.

[Jack]

Thank you so much to Notion for sponsoring this episode.

[Bill Perkins]

We were just talking about that, like some of the horrors in terms of fulfillment, the things that I found are for me, anything that I'm able to do things and experience new things with friends, right? Like most of the time, like I, I, I joke that if you go to the movie yourself, you're either a critic or a psychopath. It's not true, right? Like, some people like to go to movies themselves. But like, we are wired to connect, right? We have whites in our eyes. We can tell if somebody's looking at us from a, from a far away distance. I think a evolutionary biologist told me that, like, we're one of the few animals that can do that. That right? All babies dance. You can go into a jungle that nobody's ever met. This tribe start playing a beat and the baby will start dancing, right? And it's, it's a it's a method to connect with each other. Right. And so a lot of the fulfillment for me and a lot of other humans, I'm not saying that every single human is doing interesting things, learning things, having fun with other humans. Right. Because we are wired to connect. And so games, very cheap. You can make them up yourself or hikes or walking. Right. Cost nothing to pay to go into a state park and go see the wonders of the state park with people you love and love hanging out with and share that experience. You can tear up a piece of paper and play werewolves and write the roles down and play a game right there. So that's a card game for the card game.

[Jack]

It's a board game. And you could just cut up a piece of paper.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, the same thing with cards, right? Like, well, you can't do a cards because the cart. Then people will not. You got the six, but, but cards, board games, things like that. I think Those are highest ROIs. Then when you get into, like, money, it's like boats, boating trip, buying the bike tour. Like, when you go into a city and you're visiting friends, get the tour with your friends. Make it a goofy tour. Wear different hats. Like, those are amazing, right? Those are supersizing your trip. Like, one of the best parts of, like, a very expensive yacht trip with friends, et cetera, was like going onshore and taking the bike tour with the guides with the E bike tour. It was like, this was the best day ever, you know?

[Jack]

So now that you're at the point where I, it's, there's probably very few things, financially that you want that you can't really afford. Like, at that level, what are the things that you spend your money on that really give you the most amount of joy?

[Bill Perkins]

I think, I think anything that, like, I think my boat, so the wake surf boat. I have a wake surf boat.

[Jack]

That's awesome.

[Bill Perkins]

I got addicted to wake surfing. And that's got to be the highest ROI thing I bought because you, you can put 16 people on the boat, everybody's cheering. You're having the times of your life. I, I, it's a memory maker in spades. Like, it's memory dividends upon memory dividends and new ones coming out and people, you know, giving them that experience and teaching them how to wake surf. Hanging out with my daughter's friends, it's just absurd. The return on that boat. Boat, right? People look at it and be like, that's a expensive boat. I was like, do you understand how many core memories I've had and great times and other people's had great times and connecting times that are radioactive. Like friends meeting friends and talking on and them learning how to wake surf and then doing it on their own, et cetera. It's amazing. How much was the boat, My boat? Because I think it was like 300,000 or something like that. Oh, I have a very fancy. Right. But it's like, it's as bad as I thought. No, it's a higher ri. And then like, even a. Like in St. Thomas, like, I was like, in St. Thomas, I was like, oh, do I want to get a boat? And I was like, let me get a dinghy to see how, like, I got a dinghy to cruise around. And we just call them dinghy dingy days all around the islands. Like, go to the OS in the BVI in a dingy or whatever. And I was like, this is amazing. And then I bought, you know. You know, you. It's one man's trash is another one's treasure. Like the boat I have that people like, oh, you got a nice, really nice boat. It was their tender. So I bought this. Yeah, I bought this azimuth that was like another guy. Guy's tender, right? It's my boat. That's like. That's a great boat. You know what I mean? It was his tender, and he's like getting a new one. And I have like, the most amazing time. You know, friends go down. I'm like, take my boat out, have a great time. So for me, though, that has been, you know, an amazing, amazing memory maker. Amazing, fulfilling times. One of the best investments that. That I can make that, like, costs money, right? But there are other things, like taking a hike with friends that cost no money, that are very fulfilling, that are really amazing times as well.

[Graham Stephan]

So if you're giving people a blueprint, where do they start? If there's like five steps that they need to do to reach this point where they truly optimize their money first.

[Bill Perkins]

I think the first step is like figuring out the day you think you're going to die. There's actuarial tables. You can go see your doctors, et cetera, and your health, right? Like that is like. Like number one, right? Like when you're gonna die. And then the second thing is like, whatever period you want to break them down. Five years, 10 years, et cetera, break them down and write as much as you can the type of life you want to have. Spiritually, physically, activities, wise, et cetera. What you want in those buckets, right? Like, you want to have a kid and you want to see your kid go to kindergarten, you want to graduate school, you want to go to Japan, you want to learn, whatever, right? Put those in each period. The further you go out, it gets harder and harder, right? Because it's hard to know what you want. You're going to discover, right? So you have to leave some for discovery, right? I'm going to try this thing. I'm going to turn, try and learn French, whatever, right? And then when you discover, it's like, holy, your life can go on these paths. So you have to, you have to constantly update this, this thing. But that is the first, first, first, first, first step, right, Is what do I want out of this ride? Before we spend a nickel, before we even think about the money, what do I want out of this ride? Because you might write like on one. Extreme is like, all I want to do is take walks in the park, visit with grandma and play chess. I'm like, well, quit your job, that miserable job you hate. Let's get this other job. This is the amount of money you need, right? Like, this is the whole. Your money or your life? The fire. Financial independence. Retire early. Like, what do I really want out of life? Life. Once you know that, right, we can start talking about spending, saving, grinding, not grinding, etc, right? What does the arc of your life look like? You know, are you the type of person that's like, I just want to garden, hang out, play chess and checkers with my friends. Are you like, I want to travel the world and, and, and be on yachts, et cetera. Is that, is that fulfilling for you? You know, so I think knowing who you are and what you want out of life is kind of the first step.

[Graham Stephan]

And then after that, how do you get over the fear of spending down your money?

[Bill Perkins]

What helps me, every day when I wake up and I go into my closet, there's a clock that tells me the percent of, of. Of. Of life I've had left. You can look it up online. There's this guy that makes these clocks and you put in your birthday and you know, it'll say like, 50, 70, 69, whatever, wherever I'm at, right? And I also have your life in weeks, calendar year, like, and you mark off each week, right? And I think that that awareness of your demise and helps you get over fears, right? You get really bold when you know you're gonna die.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, that's one of those weird panics I get every now and then is I just think to myself, usually people believe that, like your 50s is middle age. But when you look at the average life expectancy is like 78.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

It really occurs before the age of 40.

[Bill Perkins]

Correct.

[Graham Stephan]

And like, really 39 is kind of like middle age. And then I have this existential panic. Like 2 o' clock in the morning, I'll wake up and be like, wait a second, in a few years is it half over? And I freak out. I'm like, wait a second, I can't be half over.

[Bill Perkins]

Well, don't freak out. I mean, like, just take it seriously. Just realize, like, wow, I have this. You know, you're young, you have a body that can transfer. You have this biosuit that responds to your wants. If you want to run, it'll let you run more. You want to lift heavy things. It'll give you muscles to lift heavy, more things. Right? Like, it will do what you want to do, right. But eventually. And also it's like it will say, I will last longer in the state for you too. Right. I will carry you further because you are doing things right. And so you're in a great, great, great spot, right? Like, you got like what most Americans don't have down the ability to optimize and get more out of every single dollar you have, right? And you're in touch with things that you value, you don't value. You're like, I don't value that Starbucks coffee, right? A lot of people are on autopilot the other way, right? That's why I've sold more books in Japan than I have in the U.S. right? I've sold over 500,000 books in Japan and like a hundred and two hundred thousand books here, right? And it's been out in Japan for far less time than it has been here, right? Because the Japanese are notorious savers, right? Like, they're, they don't have the, like, we're broke problem. And, you know, this book isn't just for the rich people. It's really about how do you allocate your life resources. If you have zero money, you still have a decision on whether or not you go goofing off and playing cards with your friends or you go to grandma and hang out with grandma before she dies, right? It's a, it's a, it's a book about choices.

[Graham Stephan]

How long did it take you to write the book Die With Zero?

[Bill Perkins]

You could say lifetime, because the ideas didn't come like, oh, I got it overnight, right? There were, like, events that happened in my life and I wrestled with this idea for, for a long time. But it took like 18 months, I think from like, okay, I'm gonna write this book to getting an outline to, you know, working with a writer, going through it, writing chapters, tearing them out, giving to a friend, him reading it, giving feedback. I'm like, you're right, that doesn't make sense. This is too confusing. Going back and trying to get a book that, that speaks to the most people, right? I wanted something to save my life, right? And I've said this before, and people are like, what the do you mean save your life? And I'm like, well, listen, if he got hit by a bus, right, or whatever, and I went in and did the cardio and then mouth to mouth, whatever, all the things, he came to life like, oh, you saved my life. You know what's true? You know what's the most true thing about that? He's still gonna, gonna die. He's a hundred percent gonna die. He's just not gonna die that day, right? And so what does he get when he doesn't die that day? Well, he gets more I love yous, more walks in the parks, more trips to Japan, more all the things he wants out of life, right? All the fulfillment that he wants out of life. He gets more to do that before his final destination. Okay, so when I write a book that teach you about optimizing your life and having more fulfillment as opposed to wasting it away, right? I'm saving your life, I'm saving a piece of your life. I'm giving you more. The same as this in the case where I did that for him. And so I thought about that for me. And I was like, I. You're afraid of running out of money. I'm afraid of wasting my life. That is my number one fear is wasting this ride.

[Graham Stephan]

How often do you not follow the rules of your book?

[Bill Perkins]

Often. Often. Because autopilot, I think, is the default mode of human, right? I think we become good at things in different areas and they become automatic. Just like driving, right? Like when you first learned how to drive, it was like chaos, right? It was like, I got a signal. And you thought, hit the signal button, check the mirror. You know, it's very like, ah, right? And park and whatever. And now you're driving home, you're listening on the phone, you, you don't even know how you got to where you were, right? It just becomes automatic, right? Even your job, like editing a video, putting the thumbnails, right? Like at first it was hard and do I put here. And then you're like, like, cut, cut, snip, snip. Snip, whatever, right? And there's some creativity and changes, right? Anybody who does sales or ET their job becomes easy to them, becomes a routine. All, all their, all their activities become routine. And that helps you survive, right? You don't walk up to a door, like I say in a book, and go, is this a door? You know, round thing, seems like a door. You're just like, door open, door go, right? Memory of a dividend right there. And autopilot serving you well. But that doesn't help you thrive, right? And so I need to be reminded by my wife, by what I wrote viscerally to get off autopilot and think about my decisions so that I have the most fulfilling life possible. So that when I'm back on autopilot, I set up the processes and systems that I have a very fulfilling ride.

[Graham Stephan]

What's your advice to people with a low income?

[Bill Perkins]

I mean, for everybody, it's the health aspect of it. Like there's no bigger single determinant in on your fulfillment than is your health, right? And those choices to be healthy, right? And you, you can be healthy with low money or no money, right? You can hike, you can walk, you can avoid eating, right? But it, it's really to think about your life the same thing to think about what choices can you make and what will be more fulfilling for you, right? It's that mindset, right? Is, you know, should I spend time with my daughter, reading books with my daughter or hanging out with my friends, or should I be going to grandmother's house? Like, what is going to give me the most fulfilling ride, Right? Right. It's not a rich person's books, it's a living person's book, right? This book is about living, right? Like, you know, there's lots of quotes about like most people, most people, most people die in their 30s and are buried in their 70s. You know what I mean? Right? Like, you just don't want to be that. And, and when you travel the world, you're like, holy. These, these poor people are living here, right? They're having a great time, they're doing things. They're, they're, they're happy, they're having a fulfilling life, right? They're, they're, they're living life and a lot of people are rich on autopilot, saving, saving, saving, saving for another day, for another life that they're not going to have.

[Graham Stephan]

How often do you try new experiences to see if you enjoy them?

[Bill Perkins]

Often I try and just like, whatevs, you know, I'm Very much in around to find out mode. That's kind of like my, my life. Like one of the best experiences I had or I discovered is like riding a train. And like there's these trains that go on tours and I was like, I don't want to go on a fancy ass train. You gotta wear a suit or whatever to go in the dining car or just, you know, somewhat formal. And I was like, okay. Reluctantly went on this Orient Express for three days and turned out I loved it it and discovered this whole world of riding trains across Canada. There's one my friends were on in Peru, I did one in Japan. Was like one of the best trips of our lives. And so I realized that it'd be a world if I knew it all and that I don't know it all. And one of the things I don't know is what I like. Yeah.

[Jack]

What would you say are the biggest wastes of money that you've personally spent on or things that you spent money on expecting fulfillment, but it ended up just being nothing thing.

[Bill Perkins]

Oh, cars. Like, like I, I, I, I thought like when I first got rich, I was like, oh yeah, I, I chopped up a Lamborghini, I had a McLaren and I kept like buying these cars thinking like I'm gonna like the car. And I just felt like a douche driving around in the car. I didn't like it. They were loaded ground, they couldn't handle potholes. I'm in Houston. And I was just like, I hate this, I really hate it. I don't like it. I feel awkward in it and it's just not me right now. Somebody else might get value out of it, but I was just like, I didn't know how to be rich for me. I knew how to be rich for what was advertised on tv, right? I was an idiot on autopilot. It's a different kind of autopilot, right? Like I was the super save everything, blah blah blah guy autopilot and I was the idiot spending money on goofy autopilot. That and the only reason why it was goofy is because it wasn't me. I didn't sit down, get in touch with myself, understand? Like, like, what do I really enjoy? What do I really like? What is really fulfilling? What is a car really for?

[Jack]

So what car do you drive now?

[Bill Perkins]

I, I usually Uber or something, but I have a Toyota Sequoia. The funny thing is I did buy a Ferrari Spider that I never drive just because it's such a beautiful piece.

[Jack]

Of machinery and you can get enjoyment out of like looking at it and stuff I do.

[Bill Perkins]

I just don't drive it as much. It's. It's like. You know what I mean? It's. It's like, it's just. To me, it's just weird. It is weird. I mean, like, if I was a race car guy or whatever, I would just drive it all the time. Like, this is what I do. I drive, I drive. I drive fast cars. But I don't even like driving. I hate driving.

[Graham Stephan]

What would you say are your biggest financial failures?

[Bill Perkins]

I guess I tried to do this big, large infrastructure project in El Salvador and California and took like a X years permitting this thing. Won a contract and then they voided the contract and the whole thing was rigged. And I got think couldn't do it. Right. I learned a lot on it, but vaporized a ton of money. And then movies. I did movies.

[Jack]

You did movies.

[Bill Perkins]

But the movies wasn't financially, that wasn't a disaster. The Bond part, like back in movies, that was like the biggest.

[Graham Stephan]

Could you explain the difference? I'm not familiar.

[Bill Perkins]

So there's, there's financing of movies, right? And there's, there's all the structures, right? There's the equity, there's the debt, and there's a senior debt. Right. And I took on significant position in a firm that did like the debt, right. Thinking it was safe, wiped out.

[Jack]

But you produce movies.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah.

[Jack]

You funded the production.

[Bill Perkins]

I did it. I was on the set, I grinded it. I've edited what movie written, written, sides. I've done the whole thing.

[Jack]

Big movies. That one would be, I don't know, bad movies.

[Bill Perkins]

But big movies and bad movies, I mean, I don't know. Have you ever heard a movie called Unthinkable? I'm not a big movie. Baytown Outlaws, Cat Run, Dark under the Stars. I don't know, eight, nine movies I've done.

[Graham Stephan]

And where do you think you went wrong on those investments?

[Bill Perkins]

Well, the movies weren't like wrong on the investment. Like, you know, into a movie knowing you're not going to make money in the movie. Right. Like, if you look at the, the movie business as a whole, right. Like back in the day when actually they released movies, there would be like 160 to 200 movies released per year. And like the top 50 make all the box office. And no independent movie is ever in there ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. Right. If it's not picked up by a major studio. But there's 600 film. There's. There's at least 600 to a thousand films with A budget over a million that get a rating, which means they intended to be released, right? Or. Or sold over a million dollars a year. And you're not a studio. So all the movies that are independent, they are in this other field trying to like, sell rights in like Europe, et cetera, and grind it out. And the only people making movies and, and money in the movies are the actors and, and the unions helping you, you know, Key Grip and those guys. Right on salary, right? So it was funny because we would be on set and some of the. They would be complaining like, you guys are making them. I was like, I will gladly give you my points if you will work for free. You can. If you guys. If you guys will do all the street, I will gladly give you all my points.

[Graham Stephan]

What did you expect the ROI to be?

[Bill Perkins]

Be negative 33%.

[Graham Stephan]

So why would you. Why would you put money in an investment that you expected to lose?

[Bill Perkins]

Why do people do art? It's not an investment, right? Like if you're. You're.

[Jack]

You.

[Bill Perkins]

This is why.

[Graham Stephan]

It's a passion project.

[Bill Perkins]

This is why I tell my friends, like, if you're going in a movie business, you either want to go to the parties and sleep with stars, you want to make a. Make a piece of art that's never been done, you know, or be. Be a patron art or, or say something, right? Make a piece, right? Like those are. There's. Where's your returns coming from? Because if. I always tell them if you're in it for the money. Fourth of July savings are here at the Home Depot, so it's time to get your grilling on.

[Jack]

Pick up The Traeger Pro Series 22.

[Bill Perkins]

Pellet Grill and Smoker now on special buy for $389. Was $549. Smoke a rack of ribs or bake an apple pie. This grill is versatile enough to do it all this summer. No matter how you like your steaks, your barbecues are guaranteed to be well done. Celebrate 4th of July with back fast.

[Jack]

Free delivery on select grills right now.

[Bill Perkins]

At the Home Depot. Subject to availability.

[Graham Stephan]

You know that one friend who somehow knows everything about money? Yeah. Now imagine they live in your phone. Say hey to Experian, your big financial friend. It's the app that helps you check.

[Bill Perkins]

Your FICO score, find ways to save.

[Graham Stephan]

And basically feel like a financial genius.

[Bill Perkins]

And guess what? It. It's totally free.

[Graham Stephan]

So go on, download the Experian app.

[Bill Perkins]

Trust me, having a BFF like this.

[Graham Stephan]

Is a total game changer.

[Bill Perkins]

You're not going to do that actually, I would say if you're in it for the money, back in the day, you used to be able to go to Sony and be like, I want to invest in your slate and give them money. And they would put you in your slate and you make like an 8% return, right? They'd have a flop, a flop, a hit, or whatever. Because if you don't have that distribution and that power, you're done for.

[Graham Stephan]

Interesting.

[Bill Perkins]

Now there, there are always exceptions to the rules. Like if you make a horror movie where people do not care about the actors and the cast, etcetera, you can make a low budget horror movie, grind it out, sell it and be profitable and keep doing that. Right. But if you're trying to be creative and I just want to make a movie about this story, and this is a great idea, you're done for.

[Jack]

So here's another thing, is how do you balance enjoyment, saving, spending in different areas of time in your life? Like 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s. For me, when I'm considering, okay, I'm 26 years old, I can go out on a Friday night. For example, two nights ago, I went out and got a really nice dinner with my friends. And then after that we went to some bars like over in Las Vegas on the Strip. And I stayed out until probably like 3am Right. And now I'm like, okay, how does that affect my lifespan?

[Graham Stephan]

Right?

[Jack]

Like the amount of money that I spent. Like in your 20s, should you be doing these sorts of things that could shorten your lifespan?

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah. You know, I was on Peter Atia's podcast and we talked about this. And the purpose of your health is to drive your fulfillment, not the other way around. And so it's not about being in maximized health. Like, I don't want to be the healthiest that ever lived. Like Brian. Brian.

[Graham Stephan]

Brian Johnson.

[Bill Perkins]

Brian Johnson, Right. Because why I don't, I don't want to be in a lab like a boy in a bubble, right? In, in the most shape, right? Not, not, not having a fulfillment. So that's an extreme example, right. Of me saying that your health is a tool for you to be fulfilled. Your wealth is a tool for you to be filled. Your time is your tool for you to have a fulfilling life. And so, so for you, that time, your friends, that you can't get back, if that was fulfilling, yes. You know, you'll die a minute earlier. Who cares? It's not about living the longest life. It's about having the most fulfilling life. And if you accept that, right. That axiom then yes, there's times you should do things that are unhealthy.

[Graham Stephan]

What about for the audience watching? They're in their 20s. Let's just start there. What are the experience that you found to maximize your 20s?

[Bill Perkins]

I mean, every single story I tell, aside from like personal feasts that I needed to overcome, involved other friends, involved things. Right? Like we scrounged up the people and we went on a trip here and hilarity ensues and learnings and fun and sometimes fights and disasters and whatever. But like now it's like, oh my God, remember that time? Right. So I would do so much more of that that I didn't do in my 20s. Right. And you know, you think your core friend group, who you're still going to love throughout the rest of your life, you get to spend all this time with them. You don't, you don't. They pair off, they have kids, they have other priorities, they chase jobs, they have other dreams, etc. And so I would create more moments, activities and excuses to spend time with them. I actually say that most of the things I do or the activities we have, have. It's just an excuse to hang out with our friends and do comedy show, a trip, boat ride, yeah, like wake surfing, whatever. But I don't do it alone. Yeah, I like movies, but I don't watch them alone. Yeah, I like clubs, but I don't do them alone. You know what I mean? And so I would look for more activities to do that.

[Graham Stephan]

What about in your 30s?

[Bill Perkins]

I mean, it depends.

[Graham Stephan]

Your book that really hit is that there, there are times in your life to enjoy certain activities and there's no sense wasting time. Let's just say hypothetically in your twenties going on a train when your twenties could be spent hiking up a mountain that you can't do in your 60s, right.

[Bill Perkins]

I think there's a balance. I don't think it's zero of that. Right. Like, but you know what you want to, what you want to do is like if you're forced into a decision point between a more athletic and physically demanding activity versus a more a sedentary type activity, you want to shift those more athletic activities to your 20s and 30s and early 40s and the more sedentary activities to later in life. Right. If you're trying to get the high score, right? Because just think about, it was a video game like, and, and, and we got fulfillment points for activities and we laid them out there. Right. If you have your character, right? And this character has this decay curve, right? If you have your character try and do all the physical activities later in life, like, you know what I mean, Then you're not going to get to do them all and you're not going to get the high score, right? Like you reverse them, right? And you'd be able to duel them all and you get the high score, right? And so life is like Tetris, you know, you kind of got to get the order right. It's the same thing with activities in your life, right? Like if you delay hiking kilimanjaro to your 80s and hella skiing and all and you know, walking all these cities, right. Like until you're later in life, you're probably not going to get the high score, right? There's a kind of that meme that floats around about the couple's sleep in the gondola. Have you ever seen that one? No, I haven't. Look it up on the Internet. There's like this older couple asleep and it's like reasons why you should travel when you're young.

[Jack]

One thing that's a little bit harder of a conversation is if you're younger, let's say in your 20s, maybe early 30s, something like that, or even late teens and you're working a job job and maybe you can save, you know, five hundred, a thousand dollars if you're lucky at the end of every month like most people out there, like it's, it's hard to have a big financial cushion, maybe even it's just like a couple hundred bucks, right? How do you justify then spending that money on experiences and activities rather than putting that in something like a Roth IRA or cutting out on certain experiences and activities to then be able to at least have some sort of like minimum financial standards. How do you, how do you draw the line on that?

[Bill Perkins]

Well, I, I think it, you know, in each individual person they're going to have a certain financial trajectory. Are they going to be making more money in the future or less? Are they going to be making the same? For those who are going to be making more money in the future, it's a no brainer. The experiences you can have higher have a higher return on fulfillment than the 8%, 10% return you're getting in a Roth RRA. And on top of that you are taking from your poor self and giving it to your future rich self. So it's just completely backwards, right. For those who are going to have steady or declining income, then you know, we are bumping up against survival and we need to save money for survival. So it's really a question of where are we on the survival curve and is our income going to be growing outside of savings? Right.

[Jack]

So you just have to consider your job. Is it scalable? Do you think that your income is going to be going up over time? You have to have an honest conversation with yourself if you think that you have skills and wherewithal to be able to make more money when you're older.

[Bill Perkins]

Correct. And you know, there, you know, I don't get into like the making money and earning money, but there's like, there's side hustles. There's all kinds of ways. Like one thing I realized, like for those who are like, have, you know, average intelligence and lots of hustle, there's so many ways to make money.

[Graham Stephan]

Well, a really quick, fun story here, but when Jack and I first started the iced coffee hour, we had to figure out everything ourselves. From the best cameras to use, how to edit, how to pick our guests, tracking sponsors, you name it it. Every single day was a new challenge. That is why if you're starting a business, you know exactly how relevant today's sponsor is. And that would be Shopify.

[Jack]

Shopify is basically your all in one business partner. They power millions of businesses worldwide, from major brands like Mattel and Gymshark to entrepreneurs just getting started. And here's a fun fact. If you've shopped online in the United States, there's a really good chance it was through Shopify, since they power about 10% of all American e commerce.

[Graham Stephan]

What's great about Shopify is that you get access to a complete design studio with hundreds of ready to use templates to build a beautiful online store that perfectly matches your brand. No coding needed. Their AI tools even help you write product descriptions and enhance your product photos.

[Jack]

Shopify also makes marketing extremely easy with simple email and social campaigns to reach customers wherever they're scrolling. Plus, they handle literally everything from inventory to shipping to returns. Basically all of the complicated stuff you don't want to deal with.

[Graham Stephan]

If you're ready to sell, you are ready for Shopify. Turn your big business ideas into.

[Jack]

So sign up for a $1 per month [e-mail] ICA guys, it is $1 to change your life forever. I've had several Shopify stores. Graham has had several. We've had several people on this podcast that have become millionaires because of their Shopify store. So it's a $1 per month trial. You could change your life [e-mail] all lowercase. There's also a link down below in the description. Thank you so much to Shopify for sponsoring this episode.

[Bill Perkins]

One thing I realized, like, for those who are like, have, you know, average intelligence and lots of hustle, there's so many ways to make money.

[Graham Stephan]

Do you think that applies to the average person? Because I realize where we're sitting right now. And for those that aren't aware, this is Caleb Hammer's studio. And all the time he has people on this side of the desk that have blown thousands of dollars on trips or experiences and they're going into credit card debt because they spent all of their money and then their car broke down.

[Bill Perkins]

We're not saying be foolish.

[Graham Stephan]

So where do you draw the line.

[Bill Perkins]

Between, like, you want to consider these things, right? Like there is a line, right? Like I've been on both sides, right? I've been on the Super Frugal and I've been like, I have no money. Like, I have, I literally have no money and have credit card debt and I make an obscene amount of money, right, for my age at the time. But what we want to do is thinking, like, what are the fulfilling things I can do within my budget and what does my future income look like, right? And for each person that's going to be different, am I a, you know, am I eventually going to hit a home run type of guy or am I a guy that's like, I'm going have a safe job and this is it and this is my income and what I save is going to have to sustain me for the rest of my life, right? And there are all kinds of different people with different type of risk appetites, with different types of opportunity sets.

[Jack]

It made me think back to something I haven't thought about in probably 15 years or so. I, I was 11ish around this time. And I remember so envious, I went.

[Bill Perkins]

To, I went to Chase bank, right.

[Jack]

Or, or Washington Mutual, whatever it was back at the time, a long time ago. And I deposited, I think it 50 or so bucks, right? Because it was like my birthday money or something, right? And then I looked at the amount of money I had on my, my savings account and my brother went with me. It was Christmas because we both went together and my balance was like $400. I was lucky. Like, like my parents, they'd, you know, I'd get some money and stuff for my birthday and Christmas. So I had like 400 bucks by like 11 or something like that. And then my brother had 700 and he's two and a half years older than me. And I was like, wow. Like, if I save my birthday and my Christmas money, in two and a half years, I'll have $700.

[Bill Perkins]

Right.

[Jack]

You know, but I also remember, like, there were games that I wanted Pokemon had came out and like, I wanted to buy Pokemon, but It was like 50 bucks. And like, all my friends had it. And I became very frugal because I saw my brother was very frugal and he was able to save $300. And now I think, like, wow, like, 300. Like, like, obviously that's a sizable chunk of change. You could still do some really cool things with that. But, like, the amount that it means to me now versus the amount that it meant to me when I was 11 or 12 is just, like, incomparable.

[Bill Perkins]

Right? So you have a. You have like, yeah, and, And.

[Jack]

And now I, like, I try to apply that between now and, you know, wherever my future is at while obviously remaining, you know, like, I would say, conscious and like, accurate, hopefully. But yeah, it's. It's completely.

[Bill Perkins]

I don't know what the right answer is for you, but if you are thinking about it and you're modeling it out, you are closer to an optimal life than just autopiling it, right? Like, you were taught a very good skill and something to have in your toolkit, which is saving at a young age, but you remember at the expense of a fulfilling childhood, like, buying a bike would be much better for you than that 400 bucks. Like, who gives a. You can't remember 400 bucks, right? If you had a bike, you would remember all those times biking around with your friends and all the memories you have, and that's what you'd be talking about instead of this, like, I had 400 bucks saved in a bank useless story that you have right now. Right? The skill is useful, but the fulfillment and the memory divims are completely missing at that age. Right? And so what you don't want to have happen is that happen now. Now. And. But at the same time, being mindful of, like, I don't want to be busted, right?

[Jack]

The trick is to be mindful. But it's hard because, like you said, it's developing the skill of saving or like, developing the anti skill of just spending all of your money and getting stuck on this, like, hedonistic pursuit of life.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah. The skill is living. The skill we want is living. We want to thrive. Right? And what thrive means to each individual person is different. Right? So. So I don't give a shit about saving. I don't give a shit about spending. I Care about fulfillment and thriving. Those are just tools for the big f. The big fulfillment, right? My health, my wealth, my time, all my decisions. Right. It's all from my fulfillment. And then the hardest question, which I don't write about in the book is, well, what, what is fulfilling? I'm like, I don't know. That's up to you, right? Like there's tons of books on like, how to live a fulfilling life and you can believe one or whatever according to your values, your religion, whatever, whatever, whatever belief system you have. Like, you kind of have an idea what you're filming is. But like, you need to get off autopilot and think about that, what that means in each period of your life. But saving spending, I don't give a fulfillment.

[Graham Stephan]

What do you think is more dangerous? Overspending or underspending?

[Bill Perkins]

From my fear point, it's, it's underspending because the, the thing I'm worried about is wasting my life life because if I think for, for particularly you guys, right, like, you have no risk. If I take all your money away from you guys now, you're, you're gonna make it back, right? You're gonna go get a job. You'll have a well paying job. You're gonna have a great life. I can vaporize your money right now and you're still gonna have a successful life. You have zero risk. Zero. You guys are intelligent people with great skill sets. Right? Subject, verb, agreement. You know, you think through things. You are blessed with mental acuity. You have zero risk. Zero.

[Graham Stephan]

It's so funny, I see us have a lot of risk.

[Bill Perkins]

I know you live in fear.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Bill Perkins]

You, you get. There's monsters opposite of that monsters under the bed type of guy. Yeah. You know what I mean? You have monsters under bed. But like, I look at you guys.

[Graham Stephan]

I'm like, I was even telling Jack, I'm like, yo, Jack, we should prepare for like the podcast maybe not doing as well because of, of what's happening in the markets. And I'm like, the last time these have happened, like, we ended up losing out on qu contracts.

[Bill Perkins]

It might happen. You might lose it all. I'm just saying you're going to be fine. I'll come to you in 10 years and I'll be like, did it matter? Be like, no, we, we figured this out. I got a job here. I got whatever. Like, you're, you're easily to employ. And you're also easy to start another business, which, whichever path you choose the safe route, working for somebody else or the wild, adventurous side of an entrepreneur. And I think entrepreneurs like, holy, I can die. I can die. I could die. The business can die, guy. You won't.

[Jack]

In fairness. Here's a. Here's another thing is that some people just have differences in terms of where they get their enjoyment from in terms of expense. Like Graham. The things that he likes in his life tend to be a little bit more on the pricey side. Like, he wanted an aquarium and kudos to him for doing this, but he spent a lot of money on this aquarium. He wants experiences. For example, once again, not trying to say the group, but like, he took this group out the index on this very lavish.

[Graham Stephan]

All right, 40 grand.

[Jack]

He dropped. He dropped 40 grand for two days on this, on this, this group that he has. And for him, like, that is like what he wants to be doing for me, pickleball. And the cost is maybe 300 a year and that. Like, like, so it's easier for me to have. You know, I don't see money and happiness in the same sort of thing. Whereas other people, they, they. Their money is directly tied to their. Like, some people are also more materialistic. Like, Graham genuinely does get happiness. Like the guy that has that nice cars in the group. Like having nice cars and having nice watches and this and that.

[Graham Stephan]

I would say to a certain degree, I like collecting things. Collector.

[Bill Perkins]

So you have 0,000 risk. Like you should be taking maximum risk, right? Like, and he has like a little bit of risk. But like, what, what? You're young. You're still going to discover things that you like. You didn't know pickleball existed four years ago. True, right? So now you're like, it's pickleball. Right? But four years from now, it's going to be the other thing, right? It's always going to be pay. He's like, no, it's pickleball. I love her. She is my best. It's always going to be pickleball, but you' to discover other things that you like. Maybe pickleball will always be number one, right? But there'll be other things that drive your fulfillment, just like he will as well. Because life is discovery. And the more you live it, the more you'll discover and the more you learn. It's a very sad, sad, sad world if you discovered it all.

[Jack]

So to be intentional about how you should be spending your resources, time, money, et cetera, mental energy. What do you think? You just read certain books? Do you meditate? Do you write down and just sit in a room?

[Bill Perkins]

Like, I think we Went over like what are the first steps is like be aware of what you're doing by break your life off into periods, I call them time bucketing, right? And then think about the experiences you want. But realize like you are going to discover what you like. Like you didn't know your wife at one point, right? Or your girlfriend or pickleball or whatever. Like you discovered these things and realize like that is life, right? Life is going to be discovery. And you. And I think like, you know, my belief is, is having a fulfilling life is continual discovery. And so you're going to be out there. You didn't know you wanted to do a podcast. You didn't know you wanted to have this guest. You didn't know you liked the book Die with Zero. Do you like it? I hope you like it anyway, you know, so like, just remember that, like that is what's going to be driving it. Like there's a, there's a. You ever hear the thing like, would you rather be the king of England in 15 something or, or like lower middle class or poor today, right? And I think the answer is obvious. You know, poor today, right? And people cite reasons, different reasons, right? But I think one of the main reasons is the speed of travel. The average poor person could live the entire life of the king in two months, right? They could take a bus to Florida and you know what I mean, they can probably buy a super saver ticket on Southwest and go, you know, have an adventure and go around, which would take a lifetime for a king, right? And on the way he did this and, oh, he went to this concert and he did that and then he saw a show and whatever king can do that, right? Aside from that, he had straw for toilet paper and would die of like simple things or whatever. Forget all that. Just the speed of travel, which allows you to move through this world and experience more. More, right? Allows you to condense more, right?

[Jack]

What period of time in your life has been the best so far?

[Bill Perkins]

Now, it's always now. But I think, you know, I was the good old days, like I, I think courting my current wife and, and, and, and the engagement and, and my daughters, you know, that one just turned 21, one just turned 18. It seems like it's the best time, right? But I've been grateful for every period. Like sometimes I'll go back and be like, oh, those were the greatest times in high school. Hang out, we had no money, et cetera. Like, like being busted in New York City trying to make. It was like an amazing time. In my life. But it was a different. It was filled with activities that were meant for that period that don't really transfer, like running around and spending money and being broke and trying to make it in New York City and chasing girls don't fit into this time period of my life. But it was a great time. It was a great time being young and single in New York. Right?

[Graham Stephan]

And how do you balance this book with raising your daughters and making sure they don't grow up spoiled, but they appreciate the work and sacrifice that went into this. But also enjoying life, it's the same thing.

[Bill Perkins]

Like my message, the, the physics that govern my body are the same physics that govern my, my daughter's body, right? Like they will grow, they will reach mental maturity calculation power at 28, they will reach physical maturity. At 33, they will plateau and decline. And so, you know, I, I want them to go out and what resources they have, their health, wealth and time, right? And whatever resources I will give them, right, which would be part of their wealth to use that to drive their fulfillment. You know, my goal is to give them the value system and the answers to help them navigate the world and then to let them go out and make their own mistakes, right? Like, yeah, I've made millions and millions of mistakes. I will continue to do that. I'm a mistake making machine. Seen. But that's part of the ride.

[Graham Stephan]

Do you think there's an amount of money that you could give them that might stifle some of their creativity? Yes.

[Bill Perkins]

100. Okay. It's funny because I, I was talking to a friend and kind of shifted my view a little bit. He's like, look, our kids, you know, they want an iPad, they get an iPad. You know, they, they, they, they, we didn't have iPad. Like, you know, even if we were off, like we, we. Necessity was, was part and, and struggle was part of the ingredients that made us, right. It wasn't like the only ingredient, but it was part of the ingredient. And they are missing in many ways, not completely that ingredient, right? That, that gave us like whatever advantage, right? This some advantage. And so you know, my friend is like, you have to pay for that. You have to cover that because you robbed them of the struggle, right? And you don't mean to rob them, but like, if you made it, like, you don't want to, like, it's like, oh, I don't want to live a busted life. What was the purpose of making. Like, I could have, I could have lived a simpler life and I could have made that choice. I could have said, you know what? Live on a farm. We're going to grow our own potatoes. We're going to live a simple life or whatever. And my kids will be like, okay, I have this grit and necessity, and if I want an iPad, I got to go hustle. And then if I want these things, I got to go hustle. And they would have that as part of their, you know, repertoire at a great greater, greater index than what they have now. And they can go out and make it. And I've robbed them of that because I didn't want to go live on a farm. You know, I'm using extreme examples, right. But you get the idea. And so if I keep giving them money, I would completely. They would lose it. All right? You know what I mean? They would lose it completely. Right. Like, not have that necessity. And I think it's, it's. It's part of the ingredient of, of navigating the world.

[Jack]

And how, how do you balance giving to your children versus giving to yourself?

[Bill Perkins]

I pick an amount that I'm going to give them. I don't know what the. Like in the book, I talk about when you should be giving the inheritance to the kids and not make it a bequest, which is absurd. But not the amount. Right. It could be zero. It could be a zillion dollars. I think that's very personal. But for me, the thing is, is you need to come up with a number so you're not just using that excuse of, oh, it's just going to go to my kids when I die and they're 60, which is absurd. It's just an absurd thing. They're not, they're not kids then. Right. Like more than two thirds of their life has passed them by. Right. And their ability to enjoy that money has declined, et cetera. You're giving them money at the, the wrong, wrong time, and it's completely not thought out. It's not deliberate. It's random. It's silly. What you should do is figure out what you want to give them and then spend all your money down till you die. And then they have their money. It's protected. You. You, you get sued. You know what I mean? It's. It doesn't take that money. You, you, you know, you do something stupid and you lose all your money. Their money is protected. It's separate. It's their money. It doesn't mean they get to go spend it when they're 19 or 20. It's at a trust, and it turns over to them when it turns over to them. Right. And if you don't have all the money made, you just get put money in yearly until it gets there. Right. If there's some uncertainty. But there's ways to do it. But the whole book is about living off autopilot and being deliberate and thinking these things through. Not just be like, oh, when I die, my money, I'll go to my kids. Right. That worked. When then, you know, a couple hundred years ago where you were a farmer, your kids were a farmer. They're going to be kids who are going to be a farmer, et cetera. Right. So like you died, they take over the farm. They do the same thing and he takes over farm or he's a blacksmith, My son's a blacksmith. They'll always be a blacksmith. We're the smiths. Right. Like that's not how it works nowadays. Right. You know?

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Bill Perkins]

You know, just turn over the family enterprise and that's what they do.

[Graham Stephan]

Now, since you wrote the book, is there anything that has changed your perspective or that you would change about the book if you had the power to snap your fingers and edit it?

[Bill Perkins]

No, I've never been like, I've done, I think over 54 podcasts, I've done a couple talks. I don't like doing talks in, in the beginning. Like they want you to go around and do all talks, nothing where I've been stumped. I'm like, oh my gosh, I should change this. You know, this principle, like, I think it's like very axiomatic. It's not like new, it's full life cycle hypothesis, like laid out. Right. Like, have you guys heard of that? It's essentially income smoothing about like basically, you know, taking from your richer self in the future and giving to you now so that you have a more fulfilling life. Etc. Two guys, I think they want a prize for it so you can look it up.

[Jack]

But what is the life cycle hypothesis?

[Bill Perkins]

Essentially? It's basically income smoothing. Like when you're in your poorer self right now, you should be going to somewhat in debt. Okay. Because your income is going to grow and you're going to be able to extinguish it in order to get the experiences you want to have to now.

[Jack]

So it's exactly, it's essentially what you're.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, like, it's like I didn't know about full life cycle hypothesis. I learned about it when I hired an economist when I wanted to make this program and I was like, holy. It's like to me it was like a sign that like I Am thinking about this life problem correctly, right? Like if, if people discover the laws of physics, right? They didn't, they didn't invent them, right? Like you just, you discover a truth, right? And so I, I discovered a truth. I think, you know, I have friends that are like, we want the 600 page version of this. We want, want. Like I didn't want to write it like a cookbook. Like do this, do that, do this, do that. Like it's, it's modeled a lot on your money or life where there's like exercises at the end or like suggestions at the end. So there's a couple suggestions at the end, but whenever I go give a talk, they're like, I want the cookbook. You know what I mean? I want more examples of how to do this right? I want more examples to how to spend my money or how to save. I want more examples of annuities and things or how they work. I want more examples of granted annuity trusts or ways to transfer your money. Like a 600 page version will give people like kind of the, like what to do. But I, I didn't think most of the value is getting the concept right. It's like just getting the concept right. Once you get four sequels MV squared right, then you do all kinds of wonderful things right. Once you get E equals MC squared, you get satellites that get the timing right and all these other kind of things. So it's like really about getting the formula right and the concepts right. And then people can apply them individually as they see fit.

[Graham Stephan]

So where do you invest your own money?

[Bill Perkins]

I am not an example. Like I tell those people, like I.

[Graham Stephan]

Oil futures and I'm not a role model.

[Bill Perkins]

I think I can be an inspiration, right? I make way too many mistakes to be a role model. Like, do not live my life. You are. But I think I can be an inspiration. You know what I mean? I think I can be inspiring and so, you know, I think take maximum risk, right? Like a lot. Most of my money is either tied up in my fund, right? Or, or the, the things I have that I have a lot of private placement too. Like I probably have way too much money in venture capital and private placement, right? Like, because now I'm like, you say, like I'm illicolate. Like what if I want to go here? I don't. I can't get the cash right? And so that's generally where it is. And now I've actually put a needle scratch to all that because of my age. A lot of friends are like, oh yeah. And you're going to make money in 10 years. I'm like 10 years? Yeah. Trying to have a party now.

[Graham Stephan]

So do you have this cash on the side that you're like, this is my money that I don't touch that is there for a rainy day if I absolutely need it. Just in case I used to.

[Bill Perkins]

I don't because I have houses and assets that I can liquidate in a fire sale. And even if it's half, it's like I'm okay, right. I'm quite okay and been quite. Planning to have a lot less money. Not right now, but like if it happens, it happens. I'm not ego attached to it.

[Graham Stephan]

It seems like this has been something that has been you for decades though. I mean just to be able to trade.

[Bill Perkins]

Yes, like I've been trading like that.

[Graham Stephan]

And take on that risk. I think your risk tolerance is probably 10 times higher than mine.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, it's very, it's very high. And you know, one of the, one of the things people say, like what would you say to somebody in their 20s or 30s? Like what, what advice do you give them? I, I say in every area of your life, life, take the most risk you can possibly stand and then add a little bit more.

[Graham Stephan]

So I guess here's my philosophy. I feel like you could take a ton of risk when it comes to your time and career, but then when it comes to your money and investments, you could play it safe there. And so that's like maybe a good balance where like yeah, I mean go gung ho on like making as much money as you can. But then once you have it, I.

[Bill Perkins]

Would say take all that money and invest it in yourself. Go start the business that you have inside your house head. That's the riskiest thing you could probably do, right. That's going to give you the most yield. I'd say the savings. But that's just me, remember? That's just me. You can always go get a job so you're not going to be broke. You will never be broke and he will never be broke because you can always go get a job, something. What's the safety for?

[Graham Stephan]

Do you have any advice for people who want to start their own business?

[Bill Perkins]

Make sure you're the type of guy that can be an entrepreneur and take the risk. I think a lot of people, it's romanticized a lot and not everybody is cut out to do that. Maybe you're the guy that, that needs to get paid first. Right. Not the entrepreneur that's dipping into his savings to pay the employees and, and do the vision, et cetera, that hold it and like do your best. Like, a lot of people think an idea is, is the thing and it's actually the execution. I'm sure you're very well, very well aware of that, right? Like podcast sounds like a great idea, but people don't realize like how much work goes into editing, getting the thumbnails, getting the guests, coordinating with the guests, running around, you know, dealing with sponsors, you know, not being too commercial. So people turn out like just so much that goes into making this podcast entertaining and running it as a business than just like, I got a great idea, right? And so make sure you're that type of person and that you can take that risk.

[Graham Stephan]

How do you know if you're that type of person?

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, I mean, you can develop it. Like, you know, are you the type of person that's okay going busto for a bit or having to go back to work? You know, I always like people like yourself that are like, you can easily get a fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty hundred thousand, two hundred thousand dollar a year job. Like, you have nowhere risk. There's no real financial risk. You only have ego risk.

[Jack]

You know, it seems like the common thread between everything you're saying is just being hyper. Intentional. Yes, about everything.

[Bill Perkins]

You got the book. You got the book. The book is about being intentional, living an intentional life. And there's a lot of other books out there that come at it from a different angle, right? They talk about different things, about intentionality, being aware, being conscious, living a conscious life. But that is as the whole book in a nutshell.

[Graham Stephan]

What have you learned from Dan Bulzerian?

[Bill Perkins]

I've learned that I don't want to be too famous. That's one of the reasons why I don't like, somebody's like, you should TED talk. I was like, no way. While I do a TED talk. I, I wanted to do a TED Talk and originally. But like, I don't want to be famous. I don't want to be too famous, right? Like you want to be like Z level famous. You get a nod, a little dopamine hit, you're, you're legitimized. But like, you can be anonymous. Like you can walk around like 1 in 300 people. People recognize you, right?

[Graham Stephan]

What's the risk with being too famous.

[Bill Perkins]

For the life I want to leave? It robs you of your life. I would completely lose. Because you cannot enjoy life like you cannot when you are famous. Like, it's constant people coming up to you, wanting A picture wanting to talk to you, trying to force a conversation to connect with you. So they're not bad people, right? But like they get to see somebody's famous and they want to take a picture. Like when else are they going to bump into you? And they want to have a conversation about somehow you're connected or how they know you and, and you're robbed constantly. Like you're in a bubble. You have security and you can't go anywhere and you can't do things. And like I like to travel to Europe and walk around the shops and meet the people and not be known. And it's a great, great life of discovery. But like if I was famous, it's gone in a heartbeat. And then I have too much money because I can't spend it on the things I like doing. And then you have to worry about people who are you just. We're hurt animals, right? Like we get fame brain. So people act different around you. And you can't have authentic connections with new people because the fame is always in the way, you know, and so it's of. It's really, really bad. The only thing fame gets you is sex with the opposite. So if you're a famous woman or a famous man, you can have all the sex you want with all types of people.

[Graham Stephan]

What else did you learn from Dan?

[Bill Perkins]

Kind of the, the idea of what is. What is more powerful as a, as a sexual attractant, whether it's fame or money. And we always knew it was fame, not money, right? You always know like the broke drummer in the band is going to get way more laid than the rich guy, right? Rich guy's not even getting in the club because he's not cool, right? He's got to buy his way in if, if he can. But we didn't realize like it was a hundred times more powerful or a thousand times more powerful powerful. It is way, way, way, way, way more powerful than anything we had Greg Doucette on.

[Jack]

And not that he's like a love guru or anything, but he said he read a study that, what was it? $30,000 in income. Every increment up $30,000 is the equivalent of one extra inch on your height. And he says that height is like super important.

[Graham Stephan]

That's what he said.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah. I think for the, the average person, non famous height matters. Dan's short, right? But he's famous. It doesn't matter. I don't care how tall you are. You'd be six foot three, trust fund, whatever. The famous guy wins. Prince was short he, everybody, guys and.

[Graham Stephan]

Girls, I'd be curious to see like.

[Bill Perkins]

Like these guys are short. Like the most actors that you see that are like, you know, people are screaming at and girls are throwing their bras at that they're short. Doesn't work well on Tom Cruz is short. You know, I'd be curious to see.

[Graham Stephan]

The correlation between 1 inch of height and 10,000 followers and just see like where the optimal is because I'm sure being 6 foot 2 is equivalent to.

[Bill Perkins]

Like yeah for the average person that's out there.

[Graham Stephan]

Like just overall there's got to be.

[Bill Perkins]

Some sort a comedian said this, I'm going to steal it. But he's like height is to guys what titties are. To women height is just titties. You know what I mean? It's male. You know, it's like, you know, like it's like oh wow, he's got nice tits. Like it's an attractor. Right? Like, and so like, you know, I, I, I, I don't know. Like those, those things matter. But you know the experiment that Dan ran was what does fame do for you? Right? Like in the, in the pursuit of getting famous in order to, to, to, to get women and that hedonic treadmill fame is extremely powerful and it taught me that I don't want to be famous. Like I, I was wanted to go that route and then I was like oh no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Graham Stephan]

So for the people who come up to you and recognize you, what are some of the most impactful stories that you've heard from people who have read your book and changed?

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, like originally it was like oh, because I'm a trader. Like people knew me from natural gas and trading like very small niche. And then it was poker because I played poker on tv, in the movies, et cetera. And then, then recently it's all been like you're Bill Poker and you wrote the book Die with Zero. I get a lot of stories about how people have completely needle scratched their life and woken up and now they doing their life. And so it could be time of like now I spend time with my family or I take my whole family on this trip or now we're doing this. You know, I'm, I'm, I haven't been living and it, now I'm living but it's some version of they were on autopilot and now they're not right. And it's, it's amazing. It's, it's a great feeling. Like it's overwhelming though. It's A little bit. Because it's like, oh, I can't. You know what I mean? Like one of those guys that can't take little me. Yeah. No, I just can't take it. It's like, it was. This was a side project. Project, right. This was like a side thing. Like, it.

[Graham Stephan]

It's like a side quest.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, it was definitely. It was a side quest. Like, I'm. Write this book. I'm gonna save my life. Like, the doctor's like, you need to write a book. I'm finally gonna write a book. I've been talking forever. It's time to back it up. You know, Went through the grueling process, wrote the book. I really wanted to get out there, but now I'm like, holy. It's out there. You know what I mean? It's coming back.

[Graham Stephan]

Ever had someone come up to you and say, hey, man, I. I spent too much money?

[Bill Perkins]

Never. Never in my life. Life. I mean, I get. I get. I mean, I get the. In the. The beggars on Instagram. Like, I went broke gambling or whatever or something like that, but never. It was like, I read my book. Your book. Because it's not about spending all your money like an idiot. You know what I mean? It's about having the most fulfilling life. Like, the title is catching, right? It's supposed to catch you in an airborne. It's like, what does he mean, Die with zero? This is, you know, read the book. Holy. It's not. It's not what it says. It. Right. Like, so the book is about, you know, if I wanted to have, like, a kind of, like. I don't know, what is the. The own network type title? You know, I mean, it would be like, have the most fulfilling life. You know what I mean? Get the most fulfilling life or fulfillment. It's for you or something like that. Right? And I'm like, no, let's stick with the. With the axiomatic principle is that you should use all your resources up before you die.

[Graham Stephan]

I'm in a lot of financial independence groups, and your book is the only one that's consistently mentioned, probably on a daily basis.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah. Like the fire guys. Yeah. There was a Mr. Money mustache, right? Like, he's one of the guys who read the book and, like, kind of shifted. And, you know, they always, like, have this, like, allergic reaction at first, the book, Right? Because they're baptized in fire. Like, I was baptized in fire. And, like, I just tell them, like, what happens to the principal at Capella University?

[Graham Stephan]

Learning online doesn't mean learning Alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment counselor, who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve.

[Bill Perkins]

Achieve.

[Graham Stephan]

You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you.

[Bill Perkins]

Think with Capella University.

[Graham Stephan]

Learn more at Capella.

[Bill Perkins]

Edu. Whatever. You know, they're always like, I'm going to spend 3% of my. I'm like, what happens to the principal? So whatever you have of the principal, right? Like, whether it's a million five hundred thousand, whatever, whatever, take the hours of your life that it took to build up that principle. That's a waste. You have to spend down the principle. The principal has to go too. And they're always like, you know what I mean? They freak out, right? Because they've been there. They have this religious belief about this 3%, 4%, whatever rule they are that keeps them safe and living that life. And I'm like, the goal is fulfillment, not to have a nest egg. The goal is not the money. The goal is fulfillment. Fulfillment. And the only way to use all up all your resources is to spend all the money, have great health and be, Live in a conscious. Be conscious about your life in terms of being healthy.

[Graham Stephan]

What have you found to be the. The best roi? Activities? Gym membership. Is it food?

[Bill Perkins]

No, no, no. It's walking and hiking by far. Because it's free. You actually enjoy it with friends. You can do it with a group. Like, let's go hike. People go in California, Runyon Canyon. Let's go hike all these trails around here. You experience nature. You're actually like a fulfilling experience while also improving your health. Yeah. And, you know, like all the doctors, like, sitting is death. You know, people like this gym or that gym, I'm just like free activity. And you know, running and walking, if walking three miles and running three miles is almost the same thing, right. It. It's the same amount of energy, right? Except for running is inefficient from going up and down. So it's like 10% more or whatever or how inefficiently you run 10 or 15. So walking, running, it's just a physics equation, right. And so you're creating a memory, having a fulfilling time and preparing yourself for future enjoyment by. By getting yourself in shape in your lung capacity. Right. Then, you know, calisthenics and all these other things like that. And so I think those are. That is a very, very, very High roi Hiking.

[Graham Stephan]

What's your skincare routine?

[Bill Perkins]

I don't have. I mean, I just wash it and then I put some very oil.

[Graham Stephan]

Very young.

[Bill Perkins]

Oh, that's. I mean.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Bill Perkins]

Well, I think I've been told this. I think what I have. I have good genetics. I think. I think I'm just lucky two, though. I don't smoke. I don't really drink that much. I'm a vegetarian, so I think these things matter, right? And then so, like, if you're out there smoking, you're up late at night and you're drinking and it's. And then you just hydrate your face and then you should be okay.

[Graham Stephan]

Do you have, like, wear sunscreen because you have no wrinkles.

[Bill Perkins]

It's like, I have some wrinkles here, here. You know, do this, whatever. But like, just hydrate your face. Just like get some vitamin E oil and put it on in the morning and you'd be. You're fine.

[Graham Stephan]

Like Botox 10,000. Like, nothing you can get.

[Bill Perkins]

You get the Botox, you get the Botox up here. But I still got it right there. But like, if you. But you get the oil, man, just get the oil. Don't smoke. Do you smoke?

[Graham Stephan]

No.

[Bill Perkins]

Do you drink a lot?

[Graham Stephan]

Rarely.

[Bill Perkins]

Okay, just do. And then just like, you know, you.

[Graham Stephan]

Might have one drink a month. I mean, that's it.

[Bill Perkins]

Eat right. Exercise, you know, eating, diet, there's. There's. You can't really, like, as you get older, like, unless you're Olympic athlete, you can't, can't. You can't outdo your. Your diet. Right? It's like 80, 85% of it. Like, you just can't do it. Like, if you're eating in a bunch of chemicals, it's going to get you. It's going to pierce through your skin. It's going to your liver. It's going to, you know, it's going to. With your metabolism. Like, when you're young, yeah, you can, you can, but eventually it catches up.

[Jack]

Do you have any questions for us or any comments?

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, like, why did you start this podcast?

[Graham Stephan]

Well, this was really the. The brainchild of jack back in 2020. My theory is that he saw that Joe Rogan sold his podcast Exclusivity to Spotify. And he came to me, he's like, dude, we gotta start a podcast. And this was May of 2020. And I said, sure, let's give it a shot. Is that what happened, Jack?

[Jack]

No, that is not what happened.

[Bill Perkins]

All right.

[Jack]

But it was, it was funny because we. It was like nearly Exactly. After he sold his podcast is when we first uploaded our video. And like, we were, you know, Graham was a finance channel. And so all the top comment was like, graham Stephan sees Joe Rogan, sells podcasts for 100 million, starts a podcast.

[Graham Stephan]

But.

[Jack]

But in this case, no, it's because I watched a lot of podcasts or I listened to a lot of podcasts throughout the day. I'd go on a walk and. And just binge, that type of stuff. And I figured that Graham could connect with his audience better if he had a more candid conversation, like, because the content he was putting out online was all heavily scripted and. And planned. But I thought he could cultivate a stronger connection with his audience if it was more just kind of impromptu. And we always had kind of funny, random banter.

[Bill Perkins]

Right.

[Jack]

And people were also aware of my existence, even though I wasn't publicly facing, just because Graham would randomly bring me up, like, oh, well, maybe we could try this out.

[Bill Perkins]

What's the number one activities or activity or activities you want to have in your 20s?

[Jack]

I want to travel a lot. That's. That's the only thing is I. I went on my first ever, like, real vacation maybe a year and some change ago, and it, like, I felt like I had finally experienced a sort of happiness and fulfillment that I just didn't even know existed. And this was, like, my first, I would say, awakening because I. I never.

[Bill Perkins]

It.

[Jack]

Words can't describe how, like, how happy I was for, like, two weeks straight, just traveling with my best friend, like, going all around and.

[Bill Perkins]

You're preaching to the choir. I get it.

[Jack]

And. And then since then, I'm just like, wow, I want to do that more, you know, And I think that every time I go on a little trip, like, it's gonna get. I'm not gonna enjoy as much as that first time, but, like, every single time I get out of the.

[Bill Perkins]

And.

[Jack]

And. And have a purely personal vacation, it's. It's incredible.

[Bill Perkins]

Well, you know the saying, travel is the only thing you can spend money on that makes you richer.

[Jack]

That's awesome.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah. What about you?

[Graham Stephan]

I would say Japan was definitely a really fun experience. I want to do that again, but I don't know, part of. Part of me, because I was thinking through as you're saying that, like, I. Some of my best days are when I just lock myself in the office and just crank out a video. And it's one of those times where it's like you get in a flow state and just. You lose track of time and you're so in it. And then at the end of the day, you have, like, a finished product that I'm really proud of. And then it's fun to put it out there and to see how it does and get, like, the immediate feedback. So some of my, like, favorite days are just, like, being able to have the opportunity to do that.

[Bill Perkins]

So creating also.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. But then I also sometimes don't know if that's because I love the creation process and being in the zone or if I'm conditioned and to feel good about being productive and working.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, that's a. That's a good point. Because I think, like, a lot of people get habituated. Yeah. Into, you know, let's say you're selling plastics, and you're like, you get good at selling plastics, and then all of a sudden you're like, I love selling plastics. And it's like, did I just get inceptioned and habituated to be a rat in a wheel selling plastics and thinking, I love selling plastics at the expense of the rest of the world?

[Graham Stephan]

I don't know.

[Jack]

Yeah, people. People enjoy what they're good at, and that's kind of just like a natural human thing. If you're good at something, it usually ends up being correct fun to you.

[Bill Perkins]

But then what happens is, is that you believe that that is the thing. Yes. I don't know.

[Graham Stephan]

I always love having something to do. And there was a. This is about a year ago, I painted the entire garage, and. And the garage is, like 20ft tall. It's like a big garage. And I spent all weekend. I'm probably talking maybe like 18 hours, maybe 20 hours, painting this garage. I loved it. But I also don't know if I. I like just being busy and feeling like I'm doing stuff.

[Bill Perkins]

You can do some great travel charity work. You would love that. You like Doctors Without Borders or, you know, doing some charity work, but you're, like, busy and doing something and fulfillment. I think you might like it.

[Graham Stephan]

But my other thing is that I like having the ability to stop at any point and just return to whatever I was doing. So it's like, so, like, freedom.

[Bill Perkins]

Freedom and creativity.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. So if I had the ability to, like, yeah. Go across the country, but I could snap my fingers and be back in a heartbeat, I would do.

[Bill Perkins]

Do it.

[Graham Stephan]

So I like having that freedom of just. I wake up in the morning and I just say, I want to do this or I want to do this. And that's some of the hard thing with even traveling on the podcast. Sometimes I'm like, yes, I really want to travel. On other days, I'm like, I just don't feel like it. So it's hard to lock myself in six months from now because I don't know how I'm going to feel.

[Bill Perkins]

Where do you think you got this fear from? What do you think is driving your fear?

[Graham Stephan]

I think I just naturally always kind of been like this. I mean, because I'm thinking, like. Like, I'm trying to go through my childhood, and we certainly didn't have money. And I know money was definitely. It was scarce, but I didn't even realize that until probably I was, like, 15 years old. And my. My wanting to save money has been around since I was, like, five. Like, I do remember my grandpa having, like, rare coins and me thinking, that's so cool that there's, like, a 1920s penny, so I'm gonna save these. Or, like, saving Christmases and birthday money. So I've always been like that.

[Bill Perkins]

So it's a great skill to have.

[Graham Stephan]

I don't know. Part of me thinks that, like, maybe I was a bit wired for the propensity of, like, saving money or delayed gratification, and that's just how my mind works. But I. I can't think of, like, there's a trigger point of, like, oh, this happened. And I. And I, like, shifted my, like. Because I've tried to think through this.

[Bill Perkins]

So when have you. And you don't have to list them all, but if you have something. When you say delay gratification, I'm just like, okay, what are you delaying? What's the gratification?

[Graham Stephan]

I would know what the prize is, like, immediately. What. What I really want. Right now, the only thing I want is a really nice house with a big yard and a view of the Las Vegas Strip with a koi pond somewhere in front.

[Bill Perkins]

He's got a doubt. Very specific. He's got it down.

[Graham Stephan]

I check Zillow every day because I'm thinking, like, listen, if the perfect house comes up, like, I'll jump on it. Like, but it's got to be perfect. But then I'm thinking, okay, okay, that house is probably going to be about 4 to 7 million bucks, let's just say for, like, that sort of house with, like, greenery and this. Really inspiring. I'm thinking, do I need that now? No, it's like, it's better for me to, like, still play it smart, to, you know, optimize what I'm doing with work to invest the money. And, like, that house isn't going to go Anywhere over the next 10 years.

[Bill Perkins]

I mean, it's always going to be about it. Like you're weighing it out.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Bill Perkins]

What's going to be the most fulfilling? Right.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. So I'm thinking, like, that's a delayed gratification thing where it's like, it would be irresponsible for me to jump on that now when I feel like I could still enjoy that just as much. When I'm like 45. Travel is another one where it's like, I would love to fly first class if money were just like nothing and I could snap my fingers. It's. Everything's free. Like, yeah, I would love to do that. But at the same time, like business or premium economy. That's what it is. The premium economy is like, like 80% of the experience for like 10% of the cost. And so I, I, I look at that and I'm thinking, that's a better deal.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

So I do the premium economy.

[Jack]

Just curious, Graham, when, when you have those days where you lock in and I know you enjoy these and I don't doubt that for a second, but do you have like, memory dividends from those days?

[Graham Stephan]

Certain days, yeah. The. So here, here's a good example of this. When they, the Japanese yen was absolutely collapsing. It was like 11pm at night, east coast. And I was telling Jack, dude, I gotta get out a video on this, I gotta get it out. And Jack's like, it really doesn't make any difference either way if, like, if you post the video, great. If you don't post a video, like, it's not gonna make a material change in your life. And I was like, you know what? That's true. But man, I had a great time filming that video. And, and even the memory card, I filmed the whole video video and the memory card corrupted and I had to refilm this thing and edit at like one o' clock in the morning.

[Bill Perkins]

Wow.

[Graham Stephan]

I look back at that. I was. And it was a fantastic.

[Bill Perkins]

I remember that time here because I was sending notes in our Tokyo travel group and we're like, we should go back to Japan now it's on sale. We can have the same experience for like 20 off, you know, but, yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

But certain, certain times like that, I'm so glad I did that because I remember that I had a great time. I was set, I, I spent like an hour setting up in an Airbnb, like a little studio set set with just whatever I could find in the kitchen. That was a great time. I even did this last night. And my Memory card corrupted again.

[Bill Perkins]

You got.

[Graham Stephan]

I don't know, it's terrible.

[Bill Perkins]

You might have to invest in a new system.

[Graham Stephan]

The first time was a fluke. The second time I just was wrong setting on the camera.

[Bill Perkins]

Did you guys go to Team Labs? Borderless in Tokyo?

[Jack]

Love Team Labs.

[Bill Perkins]

Amazing, isn't it?

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

Did they do Team Labs? No, that's the interactive.

[Bill Perkins]

But which one did you do? Did you go to Border? Borderless?

[Jack]

No, I just went to the one.

[Bill Perkins]

They have planets and Borderless.

[Jack]

Planets.

[Bill Perkins]

You gotta go to Borderless.

[Jack]

Okay.

[Bill Perkins]

Borderless is the real deal.

[Jack]

Okay, I'll do.

[Bill Perkins]

I mean, planets is great. I mean, Borderless is next, next, next.

[Jack]

I will, I will 100 do that.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah. Because it was closed for a while. They were re doing it. Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

I'm gonna go later this year.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah. Yeah. Team loves Borderless is just absurd. It's absurd.

[Graham Stephan]

Where's your favorite place to travel?

[Bill Perkins]

Wow. It depends on what type of vacation you have. Like, Japan is my favorite. I did the countryside. I did Kyoto, Fukuaka, Tokyo. Visited with the geishas in Kyoto. It was amazing. But that's a different type of trip. The reason why I love Japan so much is it's like a modern culture, first world culture, that is completely different than any place else. Right. I think you would have had that experience before they became a monoculture in the world. Like when you go to Europe, you go in some place, you're going to hear hip hop, right? Like, it. It's very. They're losing the, the. The distinct. You know, the French being the French. I mean, there's French things, right? French culture, Germans being Germans. I think in the 40s and 50s, it was very distinct and very unique and not Americanized so much. But Japan is wildly different. Wildly different, Right. And modern. So it's kind of odd, right? The way they think, the whole, whole existence of it. And it's really amazing to discover. But the Met is amazing. Like Italy, the Amalfi coast. That whole area is an amazing playground. Amazing. To go to Discovery, go to Pompeii, learn all kinds of different terrain. Greece, that whole area, then into the other side. Croatia is amazing. I mean, that whole European area. Then also I love Denmark and Amsterdam in the summer. Only in the summer.

[Jack]

Okay.

[Bill Perkins]

You know, it's Europe. Europe's great. There's a lot of. A lot of travel around there.

[Graham Stephan]

Is there anywhere you wouldn't go?

[Bill Perkins]

I think I would go places where the death row rate or. Or was extremely high. Like, I would even go to places where it's like, this is gonna be a struggle. Like, I'm not gonna like it at first, like, resistant, but just to do it, you know what I mean? And feel it, you know, the last time I went on safari, there were so many bugs in my room. It was crazy. And I. I'm not a bug guy. And then by the third day, I was like, okay, I'm used to these bugs. Like, I. It was in. And it was like, in a nice place. But our. Our roof, the thatch roof got infested with termites, and then the bugs could get in, and it was just like the net and the bugs and cups and shower bugs everywhere. But safari is amazing. I highly recommend safari. Before you die, do safari and your.

[Graham Stephan]

Least favorite place to travel. Like, if you. If you. If you were to name or call out a destination and say, this was not worth it, or I didn't like it and I would not go back again.

[Bill Perkins]

I think anything that's designed for tourists, like, I didn't like going on a cruise. I mean, I see the value play in it, etc, but it was. It wasn't me. I could do that when I'm 80. You know what I mean? Or 75. Right. Like, it's like basically taking, like, a little bit of America sticking on a boat and doing this thing on a boat with a bunch of people. Sure.

[Jack]

Doesn't have to be on a boat.

[Bill Perkins]

Consuming, you know what I mean? And then you, like, you're on their schedule, so you have to get on and off the boat on their schedule. And you. At first you're like, this is great. Like, look at all this food. And then like, ten pounds later, when you get off the boat, you're like, what the. Did I just do to myself? You know what I mean? Yeah. And it. It's very canned. You know what I mean? Sure. Now I could see myself, like, later in life, really enjoying, like, the peace of a cruise. And the food's over there. It's always there. There's always food out and snacks out and everything being your spot. And America is just just cramped on this thing and you're just enjoying the view. But at this age, I hated it. I hated it. Now, maybe. Maybe it was the type of cruise I was on, but I wouldn't do it. So anything like that.

[Graham Stephan]

What do you think of what the fire communities become?

[Bill Perkins]

I mean, I think fire is a great skill set. Especially, like, there's no fire in Japan. Like, this. This is them. They save, they give to their community. They don't. You know what I Mean, like, they have. Have a simple life. They understand the concept of enough, etc. And I think when your money or your life, when that came out, which launched the fire community, that's kind of like their bible, right? You know, I think they went into the extreme. It's become this, like, how can I refreeze popcorn to get the popcorn out, right? And it's a lot of people, it's become savings porn, right? Which, you know, your money or life was about, about getting in touch with your values and having a fulfilling life. That's what the book is about, right? And it suggests ways at which you can do that. Like. Like even taking less salary by not commuting as much and looking at your hourly wage, right? And I think the fire community has kind of lost that, right? They. They've gone on to this like a version of. Not completely, but a version of is like, I'm going to do 15 years in Sing Sing and then when I get out, I'm going to live the life life, you know, and I won't have to work anymore, etc. And I'm like, listen, while you're in jail, life is passing you by. You know, you're not meant to be in any kind of jail, whether it's your own jail of your mind that you're creating by not enjoying life now or actually going into Sing Sing for some, like, prize or film, some Mr. Beast prize. I got $50 million for somebody who would do 15 years in jail, you know, that type of thing. And so that's my criticism of the fire movement. On the flip side, though, here in America, there is an epidemic of careless and wasteful spending and people living above their knees and not thinking consciously about earning and saving. And so that's the good part about the fire movement, but I think it teaches people to be like, not live their life.

[Graham Stephan]

So what if a person says, hey, I went 30 grand into debt so I could go and travel the world, but now my credit cards are all maxed out, I'm making 20 bucks an hour. It's going to take me, me a decade to pay this thing off, but I had an epic time, might be worth it.

[Bill Perkins]

I don't know. It's really about like, I would go into debt if I. If that was the experience that I could have. And it depends, like, the fire people are doing it in reverse, right? They're like, I'm going to grind out for 20 years and then I'm going to have this great trip. And this guy's like, I went into Debt. And I'm have to grind this way, right? Isn't this the same thing? Right? Like, I guess so. It's a version of autopilot, right? Like they didn't think it through. It's like, maybe there was a better way to do this or maybe that was a proper way to do it. It, you know, right. They're just doing it in reverse, right? They're just grinding it out, grinding it out, grinding it out. And then when I'm 45, I'm going to have this great, wonderful life, right? Like this guy's like, no, it, I'll go into debt and I'll grind it out later, right? Struggling, flipping burgers or whatever, right? But I think there's a, there's a, there's a, there's an in between conscious way to think about this is like where experiences belong, where, what are my resources, what are my future resources going to be like, like, and how do I allocate my resources through this period, right? That's the real way to do it, right? Not like, give up 10 years of your life so that you die with 10 years of your life to go to taxes and whoever randomly is going to get it, you know, So I, I, I think, you know, fire is great and America needs more fire than it needs the latter, but we need to be a little bit more conscious and 10 intentional about these things. And I think fire is great, that it helps people get in touch with their values, right? When you start shedding the marketing and, and the, right. I think they get more in touch with their values of what mat matters to them. They lose their ego, which is a great thing, et cetera. But they kind of get into this robotic thing, right? This kind of like addiction of, see, look, look how much money I have. 3%. Look, I did this. But yeah, on the flip side, as much as I mock that, right, These guys are finding out all the hacks, right? Like, I often say that, you know, I can be on a super yacht in the Amalfi coast or whatever and somebody somewhere is on a boat, on a ferry having the same experience, soaking it all in and enjoying it, right? They're getting the same fulfillment and they're with their buddies and they're having a great time, right? So I think at all income levels, you can have that adventurous and fulfilling life, right? And you can top grade in and glaze it over if you want, as you make more money. Money, right? And so I think what the fire guys do is they figure out like, you bought a house for this. Well, I found this deal, and you got a mortgage for that. And I found this deal. And, like, you're buying shirts from here, like shirts online for this, right. And so, like, reverse image. So what they're doing is, is they're. They're. They're reducing amount of life you have to give up for this level of fulfillment. And that's a subcategory of, like, the wealth, Right? And so it's funny.

[Graham Stephan]

That's me to a T. Yeah. Like, trying to figure out what is the best value for every single single thing I could spend.

[Bill Perkins]

I could use you. I could use it. But, like, you know, this million dollars is going to go a lot further in fulfillment, right?

[Graham Stephan]

Like, they, they.

[Bill Perkins]

They're in the. I'm at the top level, right? Like, I'm like, your wealth, health, and time. And these guys are at us optimizing one of the columns, right. They're optimizing the wealth bucket so that for every dollar you spend, you get that much more fulfillment.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Bill Perkins]

So what I would tell these guys, like, let's not do without, but let's just find the. The most efficient way to do it. Like, let's still get all these. The things, right. Let's still go to the club, but let's find the cheaper, more fun club with the better specials, Right? I mean, the bottles here are the bottles here of 6,000. The bottles here are 2,000.

[Graham Stephan]

I don't spend a video on this. Like, seven years ago, I went through all of my expenses and talked about ways to optimize them. And one of mine was like, I had a buddy who got a Thanksgiving bonus of like 200 bucks. This is when I was like, 21 years old. Spent it all at the bar, the entire thing. That night. I was like, it's ridiculous, because you could have the same experience had he just gotten a bottle from the grocery store for 20 bucks. The whole thing, split it with his friends.

[Bill Perkins]

Oh, this is something I learned from Dan.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. Just do that. And then you go to the bar and, like, that's what I would do. I would never spend money in the bar. I would always just get a bottle from the grocery store.

[Jack]

Sometimes you can have the bar in the parking lot.

[Graham Stephan]

Parking lot. But then go into the bar and then I just order waters the entire night.

[Bill Perkins]

Well, this is one of the things you said, what did I learn from Dan? And Dan would be like, look, why would you spend all this money in a club? We can spend, like, that much money, control the environment, have a party at our place, rent A place, have a party. You control the environment, you control the guest list. You are the man. So you have all the girls there, etc, right? You're the one throwing the party, etc. As opposed to like one dude out of many, right? And like, those are the things you would do is like, why would you spend thousands of thousands of dollars? Keep going to club with. Take that. Throw one party and you are the man.

[Graham Stephan]

The other thing that reminded me of going out to restaurants throughout my early 20s, I would never want to spend money at restaurants, but I still wanted the experience of going out with friends to restaurants. So what I would do is I would eat at home beforehand, but then go to the restaurant and order the least expensive thing on the entire menu, which is usually like a ten dollar, a dollar ten salad. And then what I would do is I'd bring cash. Because what would happen is that everyone would be like, oh, my God, how do we split the bill? We have to throw in a credit card. And I want to throw in a credit card when they're all their bills are like a hundred bucks. Mine should be 10, 10. So I'll bring like 20 bucks cash and I throw my 20. I'm like, all right, I'm set. I don't have to worry about splitting this check.

[Bill Perkins]

Both the restaurant and his friends. But, yeah, I get it.

[Graham Stephan]

There was one time. Even. This is going to sound awful. There's one time I went to the restaurant, I asked them if I could bring in a Subway, and I brought in a Subway because there's a Subway. Like a few little.

[Bill Perkins]

They let you bring in the Subway?

[Graham Stephan]

They let me bring in a Subway.

[Bill Perkins]

Jesus.

[Graham Stephan]

Now listen, I was in a group of like 12 people.

[Bill Perkins]

People.

[Graham Stephan]

So I just asked for a plate, bought me a plate. It was super nice. I mean, I left a tip, but I brought in a Subway and my meal was $6, whereas everyone else's like 40 bucks. It's the same experience.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, I don't know if it's the same experience because you're not getting the same. I loved the community.

[Graham Stephan]

The chicken and bacon ranch is delicious.

[Jack]

And the thing is, he also plays the waiting game, and he's like a scavenger where if they don't eat food, he'll also get a little taste at the end.

[Graham Stephan]

I have a thing for food waste. I hate wasting. Food was food. And so sometimes I'll see someone order like a big steak or something like this. They eat half and then they send it back to be thrown away. And I'm like, that's $50 worth of food that they're throwing away in the trash that I would be happy to eat for granted.

[Jack]

It's always about increasing value. So like, as long as he's better off, he's just better, better, better, better. Steak right here. Yeah, you took, you took a bite out of this carrot.

[Graham Stephan]

Okay. Like, you know, if I could avoid your teeth marks. See, that is me getting paid. Paid for doing nothing. So let's just say in that situation, we're all out to eat at a dinner. We're all paying for our own meals, and you have half a steak that you're going to throw away. And your half of steak is worth $40. Me having your half a steak that would be thrown away is the equivalent to me making $40. That's how I see it.

[Bill Perkins]

I mean, you're not wrong. But, you know, there is some entrepreneur out there who built this restaurant whose hopes and dreams that he doesn't want them to be inefficient. He wants them to eat the whole thing. But they didn't, didn't. That you're crushing because you're taking up the chair that could be another patron who's a paying patron and you're robbing him of his services indirectly. So, I mean, you're, you're. What you're saying is correct. You are getting paid. This is full. Optimizing your gaming. But you're over the entrepreneur.

[Graham Stephan]

But the foot's going to be thrown away. So it's. Their work is wasted. Isn't there work?

[Bill Perkins]

Let's put it down at the bottom of this video. Please don't waste food. Order appropriate. You know, don't waste food. Order appropriately. We can put that at the bottom and then you can go in and you can order your own food and support the business.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, but to Jack's point, though, there are some people that I would consistently go out with and they would always have like half of their food thrown away. So I got in the habit of. There's no sense in me ordering.

[Bill Perkins]

You sound like my mom. My mom was like, where some members of depression.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, but I wouldn't, I personally wouldn't order because I knew there's four people that I'm meeting with.

[Bill Perkins]

This is amazing.

[Graham Stephan]

It's two equivalent, two full meals. Because they throw it away.

[Bill Perkins]

This is be on the cutting room floor, isn't it? This is not going to make the episode.

[Jack]

Licking his chops beside them. They're like, oh, you know what? Actually you can.

[Graham Stephan]

It started to be a running joke, but like but they would come over and throw away the food. Like, and I say, oh wait, actually, could we get all this to go, to go. And I would eat for like days.

[Bill Perkins]

Panhandle for scraps. Why, why even. Why pretend? Just stand outside and panhandle for scraps. People definitely be like, just stand out and be like, hey, whatever you don't eat, could you pack it up and go? And they will do that.

[Graham Stephan]

I wish, I honestly, I wish there were a, that would just go around restaurants. It'd be like, whatever you're about to throw away, just put in this side of the restaurant.

[Bill Perkins]

They have that, they do have that for the homeless. Like they do give that house. There are those services. They're generally for the homeless, not you. But you know, you could start a new trend.

[Graham Stephan]

I heard that they're not allowed to give that food to homeless because they get sick from it. Now it's the response.

[Bill Perkins]

Not the half eaten ones. No, but the, the ones that are not sold.

[Jack]

So Graham will take the stuff that the homeless people reject.

[Bill Perkins]

Well, they won't allow. They won't allow.

[Jack]

Legally, homeless people can't even ingest.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, but if you stand outside the restaurant and be like, hey, whatever you don't eat, could you put it in a. I'm sure everybody will listen.

[Graham Stephan]

If it were not for people like Jack and my wife just getting really embarrassed by that and for like social norms, like stay, like, I would be doing a lot of this stuff.

[Bill Perkins]

I, I feel you. Like the hive mind is like, no, this isn't right. And you're like, no, this is.

[Graham Stephan]

Well, I, I, I mostly I hold back out of fear of embarrassing the people around me.

[Jack]

And I appreciate that sometimes, like even last night, like, which, but like we were checking into our hotel and, and like the, you know, the guy was like, oh, do you live here in Texas? And Graham's like, no. Why? And he's like, you said no? I said no, why? You know, I'm not going to lie. And then he said, oh, because there's a locals discount. And Graham's like, oh, well, in that case, we live here in Texas. And then the guys, the guy was.

[Graham Stephan]

A very joking way.

[Jack]

The guy was like, oh, hahaha. And Graham's like, no, seriously, like, you know, do you guys have a discount or anything? He's like, yeah, it's a little bit of a discount.

[Bill Perkins]

And Graham's like, well, what?

[Jack]

Like the, the guy's kind of trying to like swat him away like a fly.

[Graham Stephan]

Like he was laughing, he was laughing.

[Jack]

Like, granted, I'M making it sound worse than it is. He was kind of laughing and playing along a little bit, but still, like, if I get one rejection for, like, Graham, like, probably asked finally on his, like, third or fourth time of like.

[Bill Perkins]

What will we have to do, you.

[Jack]

Know, to try to get a little.

[Bill Perkins]

With this. With this restaurant thing, he's going to save more money than he ever made because he's got to be getting free food. He's like, why view that as 40 bucks? I'm like, he keeps doing things like this.

[Jack]

And they. They. They ended up giving us, you know, some sort of a discount at least.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, they did.

[Bill Perkins]

It is.

[Jack]

It is successful.

[Graham Stephan]

But he was. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Successful. But he was laughing. Oh, it wasn't that. Jack said, no, we didn't. And I'm like, do we get a discount if we do? And the guy said, yeah. And I'm like, well, in that case, yeah, I guess we live in Texas. And he laughed at it. And then I jokingly said something like, you know, are you able to apply something if we're, like, visiting friends in Texas? He's like, you know what? Yeah, I could do that. Like, something like that.

[Jack]

To me, it's just like, I. I don't know. Maybe it's a. An ego thing, too. But I'm like, I just don't like defying social media.

[Bill Perkins]

I think it's negotiate. Like, hotels and mattresses. You can always negotiate. Negotiate on always. So he's found something, right? Like that ones. And your ego's like, I don't want to look like an idiot. You should lose that part. But like, the. The food one. Yeah.

[Jack]

Pick and choose battles.

[Bill Perkins]

I mean, we're going further and further along the spectrum.

[Graham Stephan]

See, almost anywhere I go, if. If I'm alone, I ask for the employee discount. But I want to say, like, discount tire. Oh, my gosh. I saved, like, 300 bucks recently just because I was joking with the guy. I'm like, you know, I need this.

[Bill Perkins]

Guy in my life. He's gonna.

[Graham Stephan]

But I want to.

[Bill Perkins]

You are a subroutine that needs to be running, and everybody needs that subroutine to certain degree.

[Graham Stephan]

But yeah, but. But I'm never a Karen about it. But no, it's always like, like a really joking, friendly sort of like, hey, man, could we. Could we hook this up? Or, like. But usually they're all like, all right. Yeah, okay. And then they type in, like, a few things, and then they're never.

[Bill Perkins]

They're never like, of course, man.

[Graham Stephan]

I'd love to give you the Same.

[Jack]

Thing I'm giving everyone else but for a little bit cheaper. Like they're never like enthusiastic to do it.

[Graham Stephan]

But it's enterprise, Jack, that you benefited from that.

[Bill Perkins]

So this got me to a question, like a question for both of you that I think is like it seems like you spend a lot of time and a lot of mental energy on the savings side. How much mental energy do you spend on the revenue side? As much because I went the opposite way when I read your money or your life, it was like all these frugal exercises, saving money. I went that way. But what it really wanted me to do is like, oh, there's another way to solve for this problem. Having so much money that, you know, give a such that it's not worth my time to even ask for the discount. Like the two minutes speaking for the discount. Wow, I've lost so much money.

[Graham Stephan]

Yes and no. I see my time as having different values throughout different times of the day. Like right now my time is really, really, really valuable. But at 10pm at night, my time is worthless for the most part. So if my time is worthless, I may as well utilize that time effectively. Same thing with on an airplane, my time is worth zero. So I try to do an activity activity where at least it's not worth zero. So if I'm out at AutoZone and getting my tires replaced, it's going to be I'm there regardless. So like spending that extra two minutes is going to be the same thing. So I may as well optimize it.

[Bill Perkins]

I could see some of the, the variable value in a person's time. I don't do that as much but I to that extent. But I do realize like my free time is way, way, way more valuable than my work time because that's the reward and you don't want to up the reverse reward. So it's like time with my daughters. If something comes up and just like everything's out, right, Unless I absolutely have to higher obligation, I made a commitment. But if it's like, oh, these things that are going to go away and I'm going to get to spend less time with if they like, oh yes, I will spend time with you. Everything stops. So I. There is some variable in the value of time, but not that much.

[Graham Stephan]

It might be different with kids. Would you say that's the case?

[Bill Perkins]

Oh yeah. It's always, I mean, okay, it's just, it's really your priority stack, right? Like you'll have this priority stack, you know, whatever is going on, your kids, your family, Your friends, your. Your. Your hobbies, your interests, your work, whatever. And you'll arrange this priority stack and they have the way to interrupt your subroutines, right? Like this one, the highest one can interrupt this one, this one can interrupt this one, this. And it shouldn't go this way, you know, that much. You know, very, very, very hard to go this way. Very easy to interrupt going that way, right? And so that, that's kind of the way I look at it, the mental model I have in my head. But even with, Even with, you know, you can get to a wealth level or earnings level where none of it matters. Like, you won't waste the time. Like, you know, people write these things. Like, if Bill Gates dropped a hundred bucks, it wouldn't be worth the time that he spent to pick up the 100 bucks type of thing. I mean, that's kind of like this big extreme example. But you can get that where it's like, it's not worth negotiating. It's not worth the even talking about. It's not worth wasting the neurons even thinking about it. That's kind of what I wanted, right? That was. I don't. I haven't gotten there, but that's the, the goal, right? Like, I don't worry about it. I don't ask the price. Not worried about the price. It's not going to affect my life. I have a problem. You know, in the beginning, when we were talking about, like, this guy has a need to spend money, and the only way he can immediately search out is $10,000 bottle at the club, right? Like, I have a need to convert it into experiences, and I can't really focus on the savings part. Mm. Right. That's where I wanted to be. And so I wonder. You say you spend a lot on the revenue side, but do you spend. What would you say is more revenue or savings?

[Graham Stephan]

I would say the. What would you say? Probably 50.

[Bill Perkins]

50? Yeah.

[Jack]

Savings.

[Graham Stephan]

I saved more time on savings.

[Jack]

Yeah, I would say a substantial amount more on savings. Like, Like, I mean, all day to day, I'll come to Graham for like, a certain deal or this or that, and he's like, yeah, yeah, whatever you think. Whatever you think, think. And which is fine because I. I like to have control over stuff like that. But at the same point, like, Graham will spend. I mean, how much time have you spent, you know, on bring a trailer, cars and bids, looking at the price of a certain V, and you're like, oh, it's just not an. You know, it's just not that great. Of a deal. Like. Like, oh, it's just not that great of a deal. Like on Zillow, like, all of these things. Scouring to just try to save a little bit more money on something you.

[Graham Stephan]

Could find doing that.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

Which is my guilty pleasure. Cars and bids or bring a trailer. And I look at certain cars that I've wanted and I'm like, if it sells at that price, I can't say no to it. I love a deal. So it's like everything at a certain price. I'm like, I'm a buyer of that.

[Jack]

But the difference is if you. If you spent all of that time that you've spent on bring a trailer, you can probably buy the cars you're looking at, you know, on. On increasing.

[Bill Perkins]

Right?

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Bill Perkins]

But then you say like, and I'm going to pay you, like, kind of a backhanded compliment. I just think that, like, at your level of intelligence and hustle, et cetera, that you are incorrectly allocating your mental energy on savings because the revenue side that you can yield would blow away the savings. Right. So he's saying you're spending over 50% time thinking about savings. And it was like, if you just focus your mental energy on, like, how can I generate revenue? Like. Like significant capital, like, more money than you actually need to live. I think you would be successful and I think it would dwarf all your savings.

[Graham Stephan]

What about the enjoyment of the hunt and feeling proud of a.

[Jack]

That was the thing for Graham.

[Graham Stephan]

Like, there's the.

[Bill Perkins]

The cars that I bought.

[Graham Stephan]

I'm like, that was a great price. Like, that was a good. And.

[Jack]

And I wouldn't pay for his 4 GT.

[Graham Stephan]

I could see a little like, oh, yeah.

[Bill Perkins]

Let me put it to you this way. I think you have probably superior mental acuity than me. How would it feel to buy a hundred of those cars and not give care. How about the enjoyment?

[Graham Stephan]

Need a hundred.

[Bill Perkins]

I know, but I'm just saying, like, or. Or. Or 100 or other things. How would it know to feel like your kid is going to college and never and not have to worry about things? How. How would that feel? Do you think you get fulfillment from that? I don't, but the part.

[Graham Stephan]

So my counter to that would be. To me, it seems like a. Like a disrespect of money.

[Bill Perkins]

No, for disrespecting your mental neurons and the allocation of it. You were just talking about fulfillment. Yeah. And you're saying, I love getting a deal on a car and doing that. I was like, do you like traveling? Are there other things you like in life. I mean, I'm not saying that it's not fulfillment, Sure. I mean, it's nice, but you don't have to do that all the time. Right. Like, there's other things in life. And I'm just saying that if you allocated your mental neurons to the revenue side, giving how bright you are. Right. And the hustle you have and your work ethic. Okay. Then that it would dwarf the fulfillment of getting the deals that you're getting. I'm just pointing that out. And that might not be true. Right. Like, it'd be wrong. So I'm just saying, like, from the outside guy knows, I could be dead wrong. Perkins, you don't know what the you're talking about. A lot of times I don't know what I'm fucking talking about. I'm just saying that I think you're misallocating your resources. Like, if I got to play the game of your life. Sure, with your resources and your abilities. Right. Like focus on saving deals all the time. Or spend time dreaming up ways and reviewing deals and making money. I'd be like, this one. This is the more fulfilling life. 50, 50, or 80, 20. I like 80, 20. This way. So I think. I think just from an allocation, your mental cap, you have finite mental capacity. Yeah, Right. Finite hours. Right. I would just say that. I think you're overalllocated the wrong way. Okay. I could be dead wrong. Right. But I'm just saying. And you're like, well, I get fulfillment out. I'm like, well, there's a lot of fulfillment in 10 million bucks. Right. And you're the type of guy that can make $10 million in a year, and so is he. Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. Like I said, I don't know if it's the enjoyment of saving or I don't know if I'm programmed to think that I enjoy that, because that's all.

[Bill Perkins]

I know I would a lot of money. It's the programming.

[Jack]

I mean, I've known him a long time, and I've said the same thing over and over again. That is programming. But he really does enjoy a deal. And I'm not just saying this could offend him. I'm just saying, like, well, he's well programmed.

[Graham Stephan]

That would be a.

[Jack]

He is very, very, very well programmed. And the only thing that I. I feel like, as a friend that I could recommend to him and. And I want to hear your perspective on this, is that he should get uncomfortable a little bit more often, because at this point in Graham's life, he has a Very, very strong tie to just being comfortable. And it boils down to things as simple as like the temperature in a room. But I feel like what it comes down to is never trying something new and challenging yourself. It's like you've been rewarded financially.

[Bill Perkins]

That's where the growth is right for.

[Jack]

Yes. And, and that's why I think like, maybe, maybe, just maybe you try to like spend some money and just see.

[Bill Perkins]

If you like it.

[Jack]

Maybe you try like when you got uncomfortable and you skipped a posting and you decreased the upload frequency on your main channel, your life has improved drastically and it took you years to get there. But realistically, you could have done it two years before. You really, really could have.

[Graham Stephan]

I begged it. I begged a difference a year before.

[Jack]

Like you, you. It didn't need to be exactly at that time. And I think that just, and not going all in with trying something new and getting uncomfortable, but doing little like experiences and the, and trying out small things every once in a while to get together.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah. Or even focusing on the revenue side. Like, you don't have to go 80, 20. Like I said, you can just spend 10% more. I mean there's just like a lot, there's a lot. Like you're just like, I really enjoy getting a deal. And like, I'm pretty sure your audience be like, yeah, there is a lot of fulfillment in $10 million. Like, what are you talking about? Like, if I told you for a fact, okay, let's just take all the risk out of it. That if Graham Only focus 20% of your mental energy on savings and 80, 80% on like making money, revenue, ideas, deals, whatever, and you are guaranteed to have $10 million extra. Would you take that deal? Yeah. Okay, so then you already agree that if the reward is 10 million million, so somewhere between zero and $10 million, it makes sense. You should calculate what that is and then see if it's achievable and then run it out. Yeah. You follow me? Like that's just consciously thinking about, like we just poo pooed it right away. No, I get, I enjoy getting a deal. I'm like, well, let's think about this for a second. Right. Somewhere between zero and $10 million, you should be spending more of your time focusing on real estate. And then we should think about what's realistic. And I, I think that, you know, not, not immediately, like nobody's going to learn how to play piano overnight, but I think there's like a lot of yield in your time. Like everything you create, it comes from out of your mind, this whole podcast, all your success, right? You don't go dig ditches or you're not a construction worker or whatever. It all comes from here, right? And then you executing on that, right? So more of that is more revenue and you've gotten comfortable where you're at. And you're like, all my fulfillment comes from making deals. And I'm like, well, there's a lot of fulfillment and having the capital and being able to spend, spend that. And also obligations, future obligations have to be met. You said you want a big family. Well, it's a lot of obligations, so you should think about that. And then maybe you might go, well, 10% more on revenue side mental focus, or 20% or 30% or 80% or maybe even 90 more than Bill said. Right? Because that's, that's, yeah, that's kind of the conversation I had with myself, right? Like, am I going to save myself into the life I want? And the answer was, no, not the life I wanted. Maybe some people can, but I, I couldn't. I wasn't going to save it. I'm like, I'm going to have to take big risk and make a lot of money.

[Graham Stephan]

It's weird not to dig too much into, like, my own personal matters, but, like, I, I, I think I've already done that. Where, where I'm like, I'm spending an amount that I'm comfortable with, assuming a 50% market drop. Like, you know, family obligations come up. You have a kid with a disability that needs some, some parents. Like, all of these things happen at the same time. I'm talking like, oh, and then our income goes to zero. And so I'm like, I'm like, in that case, can I still live the exact same? And if the answer to that is yes, then I'm comfortable and then I'm good.

[Bill Perkins]

Right? Well, then you need no more. There's just no. Then, then the answer would be honestly that no. Copy, paste, repeat. Like, I'm not here to change your life. I'm not here to save your life. Right. I'm just here to tell you that there are ways that you can look at things and see like, hey, yes, $10 million. I have use for it. What you're saying is, I don't have use for $10 million. I'm happy. I don't have any wants.

[Graham Stephan]

Well, the thing is, 10 could be 5, 5. And then at 5, at a 4% withdrawal rate, that's 200 grand.

[Bill Perkins]

Hey, there he goes. Here he goes.

[Graham Stephan]

You know, after tax, now you're with, you know, 170 and then, you know.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah. I'm just saying, like, however you convert it to fulfillment is your way. Like whether you spend it on or 4% a year on getting deals at restaurants, that's up to you. Right. I'm just saying, like, where is the best allocation of your resources, sources? Right. And right now we're talking about your health and roughly your mental health. Right. Where are you, where are you sending these neurons? What problems should your neurons be working on? It seems like your neurons are heavily focused on saving. And I'm like, you know, those are some really good neurons, right? Yeah, these are good neurons.

[Jack]

Well, all right.

[Bill Perkins]

They're right. He's got some good neurons. Right? Like, you guys got good norms together with your friend together. These neurons. I'm like, should I focus those neurons on the revenue stream side? Me, Evil Bill Perkins. Right? I'm like, give me those neurons. Let's focus on the revenue side. No more standing outside trying to get leftovers. Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

I could commit to a few months of trying that out. Like two months is an experiment.

[Jack]

And how, what is that going to look like in an application?

[Graham Stephan]

I would say instead of being so focused on the saving little aspects here and there, of just being more focused on, on the, the revenue generating side.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah. But he needs a plan. Like, what is that? We're going to meet on Tuesday and go through ideas, stocks, investments, business building. Like, what are we gonna. Like what, how, tell me, what are the things you're going to do? I mean, we have to lay that now, but you should commit to that.

[Graham Stephan]

It would, it would probably just be less focused on like the little tiny details, which maybe that frees up an extra 10% or.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, but the brain has to then take those neurons and apply them to like, what is your action plan? But we don't, we don't have to go into that right now, but like offline, you guys should be like, okay, every X day at whatever o', clock, we're going to have a meeting and we're going to go over these things and get action items on like, whatever. And we're going to execute on one of these plans.

[Graham Stephan]

Well, I'd say one of the biggest ones is office space. Jack and I right now don't have an office. It's out of a bedroom, which I love. It's convenient. But it also doesn't lend itself to working together.

[Bill Perkins]

Together. How does that yield more money? Because we're focused on the revenue side.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Whereas back in the day, like, someone would Come up with an idea. And the amount of time between idea and execution was a lot longer because we had a text and, you know, I'd only see Graham once a week or this or that. But I think that if we had an office, we were all meeting in person.

[Bill Perkins]

You're 100% right.

[Jack]

The, the speed by which things will get done is, is a lot faster.

[Bill Perkins]

So the way I'm understanding it is that if you put out more content, it equals more revenue and your audience grows more content.

[Jack]

But also just like, in terms of, just like communication and coming up with, you know, guest.

[Bill Perkins]

Better content. Yes.

[Jack]

You know, yeah.

[Bill Perkins]

So you have, you have, you have more content, better guest ideas, better quality show, better execution, more money.

[Graham Stephan]

So here's what holds me back from a finance perspective. We have it so well in the house. It's easy. There's no commute. The cost of each episode to produce is like a few grand as it is. And I'm like, if we tack an office on top of that, the cost per episode. Now the cost per episode more than doubles because we don't film every episode in our office. We film maybe half of them in the office.

[Bill Perkins]

Office.

[Graham Stephan]

And then the other half, Sorry, half of them in the home studio and then the other half on the road like we are right now. And so if we only film two episodes a month in an office space that we now rent, the cost per episode skyrockets. And now our threshold is so high and I'm like, do we need that?

[Bill Perkins]

Well, it depends on the production value and what goes into it. The only answer is, is it net moral revenue and does it grow the platform?

[Graham Stephan]

I would say the.

[Bill Perkins]

That's.

[Graham Stephan]

The quality is going to be the same. I don't think quality's.

[Jack]

Maybe a market will be improved a little bit. I think the main thing is just that we're kind of talking every day. You know what I mean?

[Bill Perkins]

So idea generation.

[Jack]

Idea generation, yeah.

[Bill Perkins]

So. So what he would say on his argument using his neurons, he would say that why don't we just have a mandatory zoom every day that we discuss this? And it's a 20 minute zoom.

[Graham Stephan]

Living with schizophrenia isn't easy, especially when you're not getting relief from some of your symptoms. It can be hard when you're still.

[Bill Perkins]

Dealing with symptoms like hearing voices or.

[Graham Stephan]

Seeing things that aren't there, and negative symptoms like feeling unmotivated or avoiding social situations. If this sounds familiar, it might be time to talk to your healthcare provider and explore a different kind of schizophrenia treatment. Discover your [e-mail] Subtle results still you.

[Bill Perkins]

But with fewer lines Botox Cosmetic Outobotulinum Toxinae is a prescription medicine used to temporarily make moderate to severe frown lines. Crow's feet and forehead lines look better in adults.

[Jack]

Effects of Botox Cosmetic may spread hours.

[Bill Perkins]

To weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty.

[Jack]

Swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle.

[Bill Perkins]

Weakness may be a sign of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Don't receive Botox Cosmetic if you have a skin infection. Side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow and eyelid drooping and eyelid swelling. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Tell your doctor about medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lady Lambert Eden syndrome, and medications including Botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. For full safety information, visit botoxcosmetic.com or call 877-351-0300. See for [e-mail] and that will solve the idea generation without having an office.

[Jack]

We could, I just, I don't think we would like, like, I think like we can come up.

[Bill Perkins]

You don't think you would.

[Jack]

I don't think we would do the zoom. No, we'd be like I don't really have anything to talk about today, but if we're like in the office and we're just kind of working on something.

[Graham Stephan]

Oh, this is interesting.

[Jack]

And then I run it by.

[Bill Perkins]

So you're saying that there's a, like what if you had a mandatory meeting place that you went to so it wasn't an office but like every X time we have to go to Starbucks or wherever the place that people hang out and that, that could, that could work out.

[Graham Stephan]

The thing is when you pay for something, you're gonna value and use it more and it's one of the like, like an expensive gym membership where it's like, oh man, if I don't use it now, I'm wasting money. That's how I, that, that's a motivator for him.

[Bill Perkins]

But that's what you need to get him to go to Ideate to create the more money. Then I guess that's the only way you can do it if you can't force yourself to meet at a meeting place or whatever. But like this whole exercise, and I'm not saying that you come to the exercise is that this is how you should be spending your neurons. More so than the food example. Yeah, that. That's just my two cents. Right. Like, I think that's what's going to drive you to the level of comfort that you aspire to to live and the level of pickleball travel that you want to live. More so than saving panhandling for half easy sushi. Panhandling. I've panhandled before as an exercise.

[Jack]

How was that?

[Bill Perkins]

It was. It was eye openening. It was awakening. And it was. It was. It helped me realize that no matter what, you can make money.

[Graham Stephan]

Were people nice to you?

[Bill Perkins]

No, it was a little dangerous. It was a dangerous job. A lot of people were nice and there was some danger associated with it. What happened? Oh, there were some, like, gang bangers that were gonna me up, you know, get out of the street or do whatever. You know what I mean? Like, just because you're low. Because I. They can. Right. Humans are humans. And there were people who were very nice and very sweet.

[Graham Stephan]

How much did you make?

[Bill Perkins]

Enough to be on pace to make, like 60 to $70,000 a year, tax free.

[Graham Stephan]

Whoa.

[Bill Perkins]

Right. But I stopped. I stopped the experiment. It was part of an emotional intelligence class, right? Like, facing your fears about things. And I went out and did it, and it was very liberating. And I was just like, yeah, you just. You're just going to be all right.

[Graham Stephan]

And that was meant to teach people that no matter what, it was my exercise.

[Bill Perkins]

No, it wasn't like, everybody does this exercise. It was like my exercise. Some people had to go to something way high, whatever, like. But, like, it was a. It was a great exercise. It was like, this is hard job. Yeah, but it's a lucrative job.

[Graham Stephan]

Was there an effective way? Like, a sign that.

[Bill Perkins]

I didn't even have a sign. Like, I was. That's why I was like, oh, I know I can really crush it if I had a sign.

[Graham Stephan]

So what's like, the optimal way to panhandle?

[Bill Perkins]

I don't know. I was only out there for, like, one day, a couple hours. He's like, can't.

[Graham Stephan]

Like, I think.

[Bill Perkins]

I think. I think a sign would be better. I think looking destitute is fine, but not completely, like, disheveled or smelly or, like, scary and being at a very busy intersection, and it's going. That has a light and that allows people to give you money. So I think the. It's a. It's always going to boil down to.

[Graham Stephan]

A number that reminded me. I remember in 2009, I believe it was I would get off a freeway exit in Studio City on a regular basis driving from Glendale to Beverly Hills. And there was a guy who was constantly on the side of the freeway, but he wore a suit, like a decent looking suit. He wore glasses, clean cut sort of guy. But he said he lost his job on the side. He says he lost his job looking for work. Anything happened helps. And the fact that he wore a suit and seemed clean cut, I'm like, this is the guy who gets my money. So usually what I do is I'd pack Nutrigrain bars actually on my drive, knowing that when he's there, I give him a nutrigrain bar or I give him a water or something like that. But did that just popped into my mind like that?

[Bill Perkins]

I mean, I don't know. I mean, the answer is I don't know. I don't think nine minutes or two hours out there or whatever time I.

[Jack]

Was out there, hops in his Ferrari and goes straight to.

[Graham Stephan]

You don't know that one lady pretended to be disabled and then you see her just like wheeling off a few blocks.

[Bill Perkins]

I mean, if you're going to be disingenuous. Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

Hops to a Mercedes and she was making like 100 grand a year.

[Bill Perkins]

You can, I mean, you can do well, I mean, but I think that would be an effective allocation of your mental resources. But I could see him like f, yeah, I could see him like gamifying it and getting some fulfillment out of it, justifying it.

[Graham Stephan]

I like, I like optimization.

[Bill Perkins]

He's like, yeah, I go on a hike in the morning and then I pan hle for half an hour and.

[Graham Stephan]

Then I, my time is worth zero anyway.

[Bill Perkins]

And yeah, he's got the zero time get data going anyway. I, I don't have that many. You know, I can, I can ask a zillion questions, but I don't want to, I don't want to take up all, all our time. How about this?

[Graham Stephan]

If you guys enjoy this episode, if you want a round two at some point, let us know in the comment section. We'll do my, I'll do my best to.

[Bill Perkins]

I think you guys had enough. You're like, I can't take this. I can't take this sushi R. But if you, if you do, we can do it. We can do a round two.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. And also for anyone who made it to this point in the episode because I'm really curious about the retention graphs. If you've made it to this point, if you wouldn't mind giving us a Comment, let us know you made it to the end. That would be awesome.

[Jack]

Also, what you liked and what you disliked. That would also be very nice.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we gotta. You gotta edit up and put bookmarks. People gotta skip around. Oh, yeah, there's a lot of work.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. So. And we're also gonna link to all of your info in the description along with your book. I highly recommend it, by the way. And if you want to be a part of the group, the index, that.

[Bill Perkins]

Link is also down below the index. Huh? What goes on in the index? Index.

[Graham Stephan]

So.

[Bill Perkins]

Oh, dear. He's like, why? Did you ask why?

[Graham Stephan]

Why?

[Jack]

Third index slot in the.

[Graham Stephan]

We could cut it if you want to.

[Bill Perkins]

Yeah, the.

[Jack]

The index is an amazing group. I attended the. It was Disneyland, and there was like, a tour and then a very fancy dinner. Like, Graham said, he dropped 40,000. The idea of the group is to get a bunch of young, wealthy people together to have experiences.

[Bill Perkins]

I like.

[Jack]

And a lot of the money that is paid by the. The members of the group gets cycled into these really lavish.

[Graham Stephan]

We do. We do, really. Experiences that I would never do on my own, but I could justify it in a group like this.

[Bill Perkins]

Because you get the discount.

[Graham Stephan]

Because I get the discount. But then I could also. I reinvest. Like, a lot of the money that goes in is just. I spend it back on those experiences. But we've cultivated a really cool group of, like, 13 people so far. And our vetting process is like. We go through, like, multiple rounds of phone calls just to make sure everyone's the right culture fit.

[Bill Perkins]

Right.

[Graham Stephan]

But yeah, like, the group that we have so far is incredible. And when I submitted the first. First application, we got like, 3,000 people applying. And out of those 3,000 so far, we picked, like, 13.

[Bill Perkins]

That's great. So you guys are, like, investing experiences. So at the end of your life, when you retire, you retire on those memories.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. And I like how involved everyone is. Like, we've met some really cool people and one guy, like, how do you.

[Bill Perkins]

Go, say, 3,000 applicants, 3,000 applications. Some of them.

[Graham Stephan]

I don't. I don't want to give the secrets away for how we. How we sort through, but. But we have a method for going through them that.

[Bill Perkins]

I love it.

[Graham Stephan]

It's not just me, but.

[Bill Perkins]

But I have a partner offline. I'm gonna find out what.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, listen, you're. You're invited Index, and just tell me.

[Bill Perkins]

When you go someplace fun. Just tell me where you're going. Be like, all right, deal. Disneyland would be a huge fan of you.

[Graham Stephan]

So if you want to say. If you want to say hi to Andy.

[Bill Perkins]

Hi, Andy. Hi, Andy.

[Jack]

Thank you guys for watching t.