They’re Lying To You About Buying A House - Do THIS Instead! | Pace Morby

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Iced Coffee Hour | "They’re Lying To You About Buying A House - Do THIS Instead!" | Guest: Pace Morby

Date: June 28, 2026
Hosts: Graham Stephan & Jack Selby
Guest: Pace Morby

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the truths and myths surrounding home ownership, creative real estate financing, and the evolving American housing market. Self-styled “creative finance ninja” Pace Morby joins Graham and Jack for a deeply practical conversation about how regular people are buying assets—houses, RV parks, and even car washes—without banks, big down payments, or even putting their own credit on the line. The trio dive into why “traditional” home-buying advice is outdated, the dangers and opportunities of creative financing, and which strategies genuinely build wealth in today's market.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Pace Morby’s Portfolio and Debt (01:27–02:25)

• Pace’s Real Estate Holdings: Owns ~$500M in assets, with $400M in debt—all through creative financing. Practically none of his debt is “traditional” (i.e., to banks).
• Creative Financing: 100% of his portfolio was acquired this way: "My name's not on anything. I’ve not signed for anything. I’ve not applied for anything." (01:32)
• Risk: Emphasizes non-recourse debt—if everything goes wrong, his personal credit and liability are untouched.

2. Creative Financing Explained (02:41–04:47; 21:03–22:17)

• Definition: Buying property by taking over a seller’s existing mortgage (subject to), seller finance, lease options, and more.
• Simple Analogy: "I'll pay you the $700 you want, but I’ll pay you $100 a month for seven months,” likening asset deals to paying for a used iPhone in installments. (21:29)

3. The Legalities and Practicalities of 'Subject To' Deals (08:02–15:07)

• How It Works: Buyer gets the deed, but the mortgage stays in the seller’s name.
• Due on Sale Clause: Rarely enforced by banks; even when “triggered,” it can be undone or negotiated. In thousands of deals, Pace has never seen a bank foreclose due to this clause.
• Risk Management: In rare cases, will revert to a lease option to satisfy the lender.

"Mortgage is a debt. The deed is the ownership... Mortgage stays in the seller’s name. This is one of 26 strategies I have." (08:41 – Pace)

4. Why Sellers Agree to Creative Finance (06:06–07:04)

• Seller Motivation: Avoiding capital gains tax, staying out of landlord duties, higher price, and earning interest.
• Distressed Sellers: Many just want to walk away from payments ASAP, not becoming accidental landlords.

5. Cash Flow and Returns (15:35–17:34)

• Focus on Cash Flow: Net worth is less important than monthly income.
• ROI: With no money in deals, the return is “infinite”—the real question is maximizing return on equity.
• Case Example: Four RV parks net $700,000/year after all expenses.

“You pay your groceries with cash flow. I don’t have time bombs. I have permanent debt with sellers.” (05:13 – Pace)

6. Market Views: Who Should Rent vs. Buy? (72:00–80:25)

• General Argument: Most Americans aren’t disciplined enough to save or invest; forced savings through a mortgage is the only way they build wealth.
• Nuance: For savvy, disciplined investors (like the audience), renting and investing the difference can make sense.
• Warning: “People are not saving money whatsoever. If you look at consumer debt... people are not saving.” (74:55 – Graham)

7. Affordability Crisis & The Future of the Middle Class (04:06–04:16; 40:03–44:51; 57:36–58:45)

• Prediction: Middle class is being “eaten alive.” If you don’t own an asset or a business, you’re falling behind—fast.
• Housing Trends: Shift to room rentals (PadSplit), sober living (Oxford House), and government-backed co-living options.

“In 10 years, there’s no middle class. There’s no middle ground... Focus on ultra-affordability, or ultra-luxury.” (43:36 – Pace)

8. Strategy Selection: House Determines Approach (49:10–50:08)

• Pain-first Approach: Market to sellers in distress (“pain: foreclosure, divorce, bankruptcy”), then match the property to an exit strategy (co-living, sober living, government programs).
• Most Profitable Single Family Play: “Co-living. That would be PadSplit...the average PadSplit is 8 bedrooms.” (50:08)

9. Asset Classes: RV Parks as the ‘Lazy’ Cash Cow (65:30–66:53)

• Why RV Parks? Minimal management, recurring cash flow, easy to staff, high demand from industry workers.
• Typical Deal: $3–7M, seller financed, nets $30–$40k/month after expenses.

“The asset that’s a one and done. You buy one RV park and you're done.” (66:53 – Pace)

10. Lending and Investing Outside Real Estate (81:31–85:08)

• Private Lending: Makes short-term loans to other investors (hard money), frequently with "double-closing" for rapid returns. Treats “loan to own”—if borrower defaults, Pace takes the property.

11. Tiered Wealth & Family Office (89:50–95:10)

• Wealth Tiers:
  • $1M: Not much (“It’s nothing”).
  • $10M: Comfortable but not truly secure.
  • $35M: “FU money”—can say no, protected by structure and team.
  • $100M+: Anything is possible. Full family office, nonstop deal flow, privacy issues.
• Asset Protection: Recommends a family office for anyone >$10M net worth.

12. Rapid Fire & Advice for Beginners (105:24–107:53)

• Best Starter Strategy: “Creative finance.”
• Worst Starter Strategy: “BRRRR strategy” – too risky for beginners due to double loans, dependence on refi conditions.
• Most Underrated Advice: “Get a partner on your first deal.” (107:08)
• Simplest Path to Wealth: “Buy a cash flowing business attached to real estate.” (107:42)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the risk and power of creative finance:

  “Creative Finance is dangerous. Why? Because it’s so effective.” (01:32 / 103:42 – Pace)

• On the futility of looking at net worth:

  “You don’t pay your bills with market value... You pay your groceries with cash flow.” (05:13 – Pace)

• Advice to the average American family:

  “If you don’t own a business or own an asset, there’s no job that is paying you as much as the cost of things are going up, it’s just going to get worse.” (57:36 – Pace)

• On why banks don’t care about due-on-sale risk:

  "You will never meet a single person in your life... that lost a house to the due on sale clause." (09:50 – Pace)

• On who should buy vs. rent:

  “Your audience should rent. Everybody else should buy.” (80:19 – Pace)

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Important Timestamps

• [01:27] – Pace’s total real estate portfolio and creative finance
• [08:02] – Is “Subject To” legal? How does it work in practice?
• [15:35] – Risk, non-recourse debt, and weathering downturns
• [21:03] – Explaining creative finance like a 5-year-old
• [40:03] – Future of single family: Room rentals, co-living, and tiny homes
• [49:10] – How investment strategy flows from property type (“house tells you the strategy”)
• [65:30] – Why RV parks crush all other asset classes
• [72:00] – The rent vs. buy debate for different types of people
• [81:31] – Pace’s ‘loan to own’ lending strategy and returns
• [89:50] – Wealth tiers, asset protection, and life at $35M+ net worth
• [105:24] – Rapid fire: Best/worst strategies, big red flags, green flags, one-liner advice

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Flow and Applicability to Listeners

The episode delivers a candid, practical take on real estate in 2026. Pace brings a contrarian but proven viewpoint—showing the cracks in American home ownership and giving actionable advice for seizing finance opportunities the average realtor and homeowner miss. With real anecdotes, honest risk assessments, and a relentless focus on execution rather than theory, listeners will come away equipped to question traditional buy/rent dogma and consider the wild world of creative dealmaking.

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If you want a deeper dive—or want to see Pace try creative finance live on air—let the hosts know.

Transcript

[Pace Morby]

59, 60.

[Graham Stephan]

60. Oh, hey, I didn't see there. I was just getting a quick little bicep workout in and technically I didn't even need to be counting my reps. This thing counts for me. Six, seven reps in, it won't forget. Great timing though, because AMP is actually sponsoring today's episode and they sent one over for our new warehouse gym. This is amp, the smartest home gym on the market. Think of the cable setup you'd find at a commercial gym, but in your house. It counts your reps, remembers your weights, and when you walk up and hit start, it's already loaded from your last session.

[Jack]

All.

[Graham Stephan]

All the guesswork is gone. You can run it in fixed mode for a standard cable feel or flip it to eccentric mode for extra resistance on the way down. Every fitness expert that we've had on the podcast says that time under tension is key. And this gives you exactly that. It comes with a full set of attachments that lets you do over 500 movements. It's basically like having an entire gym, but in the corner of your room. And if you don't know where to start, it picks a trainer, builds your plan, and tracks everything automatically. And you're not paying 100 an hour for a personal trainer. And on top of all of this, a white glove crew installs it. Ours was up and running in 30 minutes. Minutes. And there's a 90 day free returns policy. AMP handles the whole pickup, but less than 1% of people send it back,

[Pace Morby]

so that should tell you something.

[Graham Stephan]

The link is down below in the description. Guys, I could not recommend this equipment more. Check it out at amp.AI or also link down below in the description. Use code. Iced coffee for 10% off. It truly gets a great workout in. Thank you so much to AMP for sponsoring this episode. And back to the podcast. How much real estate do you have?

[Pace Morby]

500 million.

[Graham Stephan]

And how much debt do you have on that?

[Pace Morby]

400 million.

[Graham Stephan]

And does this scare you?

[Pace Morby]

I'm just getting started. Creative finance is dangerous. Why is it dangerous? It's because it's so effective. My name's not on anything. I've not signed for anything. I've not applied for anything. If the world torches, let's say AI comes in and robots take over the entire world and I lose everything. Guess what happens to my credit? Nothing. You can do anything. Planes, houses, RV parks. There's nothing you can't do with Creative Finance.

[Graham Stephan]

How do you find these deals?

[Pace Morby]

I don't go find houses. I find pain. What am I looking for? Foreclosure divorce, bankruptcy, pain, pain, pain, pain.

[Graham Stephan]

What are your predictions then for like

[Pace Morby]

the overall economy, the middle class is getting eaten alive. If you don't own a business or own an asset, there's no job that is paying you as much as the cost of things are going up, it's just going to get worse.

[Graham Stephan]

Explain how you're right if you're also the person that's making money off of all of these people. Pace Morbi, thank you so much for coming on the Iced Coffee Hour. First question, how much real estate do you have?

[Pace Morby]

About 500 million.

[Graham Stephan]

And how much debt do you have?

[Pace Morby]

Probably about 400. Between 350 and 400 million, something like that.

[Graham Stephan]

And give the best pitch to the viewer right now why they need to listen to this episode.

[Pace Morby]

Right now is the number one time in all history where you can get free RV parks, free car washes, free houses. Sellers are in distress. They can't get rid of their properties because the market won't gobble them up. And talking about creative finance and buying creative finance allows you to buy them.

[Jack]

How is it free?

[Pace Morby]

It's free because right now I've got a agent right to our right that has a seller that can't get out of their house. Right. They're locked in for whatever reason, lost their job, they can't make next month's mortgage. So I take the house mortgage over and then I turn around and hand it over to the particular house. Right here is Oxford House. I'm handing it over in a sublease to a government paid program called Oxford House. They pay the mortgage plus $2,000 a month. So I net $2,000 a month on a house I didn't have to qualify for.

[Jack]

And how much of your real estate was bought using creative financing?

[Pace Morby]

100%.

[Graham Stephan]

So what you're arguing is basically you're able to better capitalize on this real estate asset than the current owner would.

[Pace Morby]

Correct.

[Graham Stephan]

So why would they not just go around and do the exact same thing that you're doing?

[Pace Morby]

I asked the seller that a couple of days ago. I wish I could bring the agent up here, but the agent was right there with me in the living room. And I said, you know, you could just do exactly what I'm doing. Call Oxford House. They'll take the house, they'll lease it from you, they'll pay you $2,000 a month more. Why would the seller not want to do that? Because they're not landlords. They don't want to deal with that stuff. They have stress and all this Cortisol pumping through their veins. All they want to do is get rid of the payment and not have to think about the house anymore. So they pass it on to me because I'm willing to do that.

[Graham Stephan]

So all of this hinges on the idea of what we call creative financing. Right? That's like a non conventional way of borrowing money in order to buy an asset, like a house, a boat, a car, RV park, whatever it is. How much of your $500 million of assets has been creatively financed?

[Pace Morby]

100%.

[Graham Stephan]

100% of it.

[Pace Morby]

100%. I mean I'll do a refinance like after I've owned something for seven to 10 years and I'll use a bank on a refinance, but I'm not using a bank to qualify for the loan.

[Graham Stephan]

So how much of this $400 million of debt is owed to banks as opposed to just like random people?

[Pace Morby]

Probably 20 million to banks and 350 to 380 million dollars is owed to sellers.

[Graham Stephan]

So does this not concern you at all? Because we talk to other people that have a ton of real estate and they have like 50% debt, 50% equity. You have like 80% debt.

[Jack]

If the market goes down 20%. Yeah, it, it's all wiped out.

[Graham Stephan]

You're basically at zero.

[Pace Morby]

In what way?

[Jack]

Market value.

[Pace Morby]

And the market's going to force me to sell in assets. That's cash flowing.

[Jack]

Well, I'm talking market value.

[Pace Morby]

I don't ba, I don't b, I don't pay my bills with market value. You don't pay your bills with market value. I, I, that might be my net worth, but I can't go pay my grocery bill with that. There's not like a debit card that says here's your net worth debit card, go buy groceries with it. You pay your groceries with cash flow. I don't have time bombs. I have permanent debt with sellers that don't have time bombs. So nobody's calling my notes due. Nobody's telling me I got a balloon. I don't have a maturity date. In fact, in my contracts with my seller, it states that if I cannot refinance based on interest rates or I can't sell based on interest rates, my, I can extend my note with them. So I have a seller, for example, $5 million RV park with a 10 year note. So he's financing me for 30 year payment, but he's giving me a 10 year balloon. So I have 10 years to refinance, sell the property or pay it all off in the 10 year note. It specifically says that if interest rates are in a situation where I can't refinance or offload to a new buyer, we extend another five years until they are.

[Graham Stephan]

How is this good for the seller?

[Pace Morby]

They avoid capital gains tax. They get a higher purchase price. They also get interest on top of the money that their seller finances.

[Graham Stephan]

So walk me through. Just a standard purchase, like a template purch purchase. If someone wanted an average viewer out there, wanted to put into practice what you're talking about, what would it look like?

[Pace Morby]

What asset type do you want? House.

[Graham Stephan]

It's just a single family home.

[Pace Morby]

Okay, we'll talk about this deal right here that I just did with David. So seller buys the house in 2022, gets an interest rate of 3.5%. They buy it with, let's say, a VA loan. So they put no money down. So they have zero equity when they buy the property. In fact, most sellers don't have any equity when they buy their houses. They're paying over because they got closing costs and moving expenses and whatever else. The market kind of flattens. Interest rates are now six and a quarter, six and a half for the new buyer. So a new buyer can't pay what the purchase price is. And so the seller's like, we can't sell it without writing a check. So the benefit to them is that his seller, Melissa and Kenneth, would have to write a check for 15 grand to let go of their house. Meanwhile, they have a 3.5% interest rate attached to it.

[Graham Stephan]

Why?

[Pace Morby]

That doesn't make any sense to go get a loan at six and a quarter to pay off a three and a half percent loan. It's crazy to do that, right? So I went to the sellers. David calls me and says, hey, we've done deals in the past. I've got a seller that's in a bad situation. I got on the phone with the seller, said, what's going on? What's your timeline? They go, well, we can't make next month's payment. We lost our job. Are there a lot of people losing jobs right now? Okay. Are there a lot of people in foreclosure right now? Debatable, I guess, depending on the area, yes. But it's growing significantly. We can. I think we can agree with that. Right? So I tell Melissa and Kenneth, the sellers on this house, I said, I will buy your house, but I'm not going to give you any money. And chances are you're going to pay the closing costs on this property and then I'll take The house off your hands. Sellers go, absolutely. When can we do it? Two days later, I'm in the house walking through the paperwork with them. They've already boxed up the house. Like they're not waiting for the contract to be signed. They're like, you're going to take over my payment and you're going to let me out of this situation. Meanwhile, I can take a 3.5% interest rate and do something with it the seller's not willing to do.

[Graham Stephan]

So. One thing that confuses a lot of people, it's been addressed before. But I'm curious, how is this legal? Like if you have debt in your name, you got your credit score checked when you applied for a loan on a house. I can't just go in and say, okay, I am the new Pace Mori. I'm making payments on his behalf.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, I don't go through, I don't go to the bank and tell the bank, hey, I'm making the payments that we go through a servicing company, just like all your mortgages. Like this company, this property you bought, you got a mortgage with what company?

[Graham Stephan]

Rocket Mortgage.

[Pace Morby]

And is Rocket Mortgage servicing your loan? You think they are, they're not. There's a third party servicing company. And so I hire a third party servicing company to pull the money outta my account and they make the payment to the mortgage.

[Jack]

Wait a second. So it goes from you to the seller and then the seller pays the

[Pace Morby]

mortgage like Melissa and Kenneth. On this particular deal, they will. I will never talk to them again. Even though the mortgage is in their name, the deed transfers into my name, two separate documents. People think they're the same document. They're not. They're not even remotely close to each other. Mortgage is a debt. The deed is the ownership, the certificate of ownership. So the deed transfers into my name, mortgage stays in the seller's name. Now this is one of 26 strategies I have. I do seller finance, I do lease options, I do wraps, and I do all sorts of stuff. But you are asking questions about sub 2 specifically. So how is it illegal? Tell me that.

[Jack]

Usually there's a due on sale clause.

[Pace Morby]

Does that make it illegal?

[Jack]

It means that they have the right to call the mortgage.

[Pace Morby]

There you go. So here's the process of a due on sale clause. The bank finds out, normally through an insurance change. They don't find out through a deed transfer. They find out through the insurance changing from the seller's name to my name. Okay, so let's say that this happens 1 in 10,000 transactions. By the way, you will never meet a single person in your life. Even as an agent, you've never met one person that lost a house to the do on sale clause. You've never found them. You've only heard stories about due on sale clause. But there's never been Jim Smith lost his house to do on sale clause. It's never happened.

[Jack]

I've never heard it. But I also don't know that many people doing this.

[Pace Morby]

Okay, cool. Well, I know tens of thousands of people doing this and I've never known one person to lose the house to do on sale clause. But here's what happens. The bank sends you a letter and the bank, in fact, I have a copy of the letter if you guys want to put it in the show notes or whatever. So the bank sends you a letter and it Sundays, you have 35 days to either remedy the situation or communicate to us what you are doing. So what do we do? Nine times out of ten, we call the bank up and we say, we're the new owners. The seller was about to go into foreclosure and the bank goes, oh, okay, perfectly fine, we'll update our records. No problem. What does the bank want to do? Does do banks want to own pieces of real estate?

[Graham Stephan]

They do not want to foreclose on the house.

[Pace Morby]

They don't want to foreclose on the house.

[Jack]

But if I were the owner of that loan, let's just say it gets sold a few times and I have a three and a half percent loan, I would want my money back because rates are now at 6%. So I'd be way more motivated today to say, okay, well that's.

[Pace Morby]

But this is not how mortgages work. How do mortgages work? Rocket Mortgage has already sold your note probably five months ago. Rocket Mortgage is probably just servicing your loan and it goes to another company. This is how the whole 2008 crash happened is people are bundling up these mortgages and selling them off 25 times. So by the time you get your mortgage originated, Rocket Mortgage already sold your loan a long time ago. They got all their money from your $1.3 million loan, plus a fee. And they then rinse and repeat over and over and over. That's how mortgage companies make money.

[Jack]

On the due on sale clause, do you ever look up the mortgage and say, ah, this is a small bank, we might have issues with this?

[Pace Morby]

No, no, why wouldn't I?

[Jack]

But if it's a small bank is holding onto the loan and they've held

[Pace Morby]

it on for like, here's how I would. If I get the due on sale clause called on me, the solution takes five minutes. So I don't care who the bank is. I'm just telling you there's a likelihood of it getting called when there's a smaller bank. So let's say the first bank I ever got this done on is a bank called Johnston Bank. I helped a seller out of foreclosure, caught up his arrears. On Friday, we closed. Monday, we get a freaking email from the bank saying we know you bought the house subject to we are calling the due on sale clause. You'll receive a letter in a week. I called the branch manager, I said, what do you gotta do? This guy was gonna lose his house and you were gonna have to foreclose, which is not good on you. It's not good on your rating. It's not good on anything. He goes, oh, no, no, no. I know, but I. Instead of doing a sub 2 deal, why don't you just do a lease option, put the deed back into his name, and then do a lease with an option to buy and we'll be happy with that. And I'm like, oh, okay, so that will solve the due on sale clause problem. This is 13 years ago. I learned from a bank what an attorney couldn't teach me. And so if I get a due on sale clause called on me on a sub to deal, I just turn, I just go back to the seller, we redeem the property back, and we already have a lease with an option already pre negotiated and signed with the seller that we put into motion and the due on sale clause goes away. The due on sale clause happens when the deed goes from the seller's name to my name. So how do you unravel the due on sale clause is you take the deed and you put it back in the seller's name. Mortgage money companies don't make money by lending money out. They have a temporary or warehouse like line of credit. And anybody thinks I'm wrong, tell me in the side chat or tell me in the comments down below, tell me I'm wrong. Because I'm not. I'll fight you in an alleyway. I know I'm not wrong. So what happens is Rocket Mortgage gives you a loan with their money on a warehouse line of credit, big warehouse line of credit, like hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. And they hold that for like maybe three to six months. They season that loan and then what do they do? They sell it off to another company. They get that money back and then they Go do another loan. Rocket Mortgage doesn't give a crap about me buying a house. Sub two, they sold that note a year ago. So if you went into your records on your mortgage company, I bet you your note on this awesome new property you guys have has probably been sold already four times. So think about the, Think about the logistics of that. Which one of these servicing companies that are so disenfranchised, like so disassociated with this note, they. They're not tracking due on sale, they're not tracking deed. They're not tracking any of that stuff. They're just selling the note over and over and over and over in the secondary market. None. None of these companies know that we're doing anything like this. Nothing.

[Jack]

Side tangent here. I'm curious because they're not aware of a lot of these loans.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Are they also not aware if someone were to buy an investment property as a primary?

[Pace Morby]

Oh, yeah. I'm sure that that happens all the time. Like people do this with the VA loan. They do with the FHA loan all the time. Where you're supposed to live in the property as the primary resident. And people, what they do is, you'll see people, I, I won't name the YouTube channel, but people teach people how to go get a FHA loan, live in it temporarily and then move out of it. That's not what I do. I don't teach people to go get loans. So. But that, yes, that happens all the time. How would they know? How would they know? Do they have a department in the bank that goes out and like follows people around, says, you're not living in this house? No. Have you guys ever called the bank and like got customer service?

[Jack]

I don't think I've ever called a bank and got customer service.

[Pace Morby]

Okay. We do all the time, like wire transfers or whatever else we're doing. We're like, man, we're calling a company in India, they're transferring us to another such and such. I mean, we're talking about Chase, bank of America, all these big companies. Nobody knows deeds are being transferred when the due on sale clause does happen. Jack, to answer your question, the due on sale clause happens usually with a small bank that keeps their loans in house. So it's never going to happen with a Rocket mortgage or like my personal home, Zion National Bank. I bought my house sub 26 years ago. Please call the due on sale clause. I'll even put my address on my Instagram stories. I'll give you everything. There's no department that even knows Anything about due on sale clause?

[Graham Stephan]

What I'm curious about is with all of this debt that you have.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

$400 million of debt, non recourse.

[Pace Morby]

Also think about that too. Think about all that. Non recourse debt, non recourse debt. My name's not on anything. I've not signed for anything. I've not applied for anything. If the world torches, let's say AI comes in and robots take over the entire world and nobody can even live in any of the houses or go to my RV parks or any of my multi family properties I own and I lose everything. Guess what happens to my credit? Nothing.

[Graham Stephan]

And so you said you're not necessarily worried about market fluctuations because if the market goes down, you don't pay for. You don't pay your grocery bill.

[Pace Morby]

With equity.

[Graham Stephan]

It's paid with cash flow. I'm curious.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

On this $100 million of equity that you have, what is it? Cash flowing?

[Pace Morby]

Millions. Like, I just looked at four of my RV parks this morning. I've owned them now for a year. I looked at four of them. My CPA just sent me an email literally this morning on four of my dozens of RV parks. Do you know the difference between net operating income and actual cash flow?

[Jack]

It's.

[Pace Morby]

This is the stupidest word. All you commercial guys are so stupid, they use this stupid acronym called noise. The dumbest acronym ever. N O I stands for net operating income, which means your money you make before you pay the, the loan to the bank. So it's not real net. So my True net on 4 RV parks is $700,000 a year. Net, net net after every single expense. Those are four of my properties. Four. So you're talking millions of dollars in net net free cash flow every single year.

[Graham Stephan]

What I'm curious is what is your actual ROI when all of this is set in infinite?

[Pace Morby]

I have no money in the deal. It's infinite. I put no money in the deal. I put no credit in the deal. My ROI, even if I made $1 would be infinite.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, but I'm just saying. Okay, so then return on equity.

[Pace Morby]

Okay, return on equity. This is. Now this is another conversation. Return on equity becomes problematic because let's say I bought a property, 2720 N Sterling Ave in 2019. I bought it with no equity. 392,788 was my mortgage balance. I took over, had zero equity, gave the seller no money. I held onto that until 2024 and it grew to like $700,000. That property had roughly $300,000 in equity after about six years. Obviously I rode the COVID wave and I looked at that equity. I'm like that $300,000 equity sitting in that property is not worthy of that money sitting there. It's not. It shouldn't be there. So what did I do? I sold that single family house and I did a 1031 into an RV park and used that money as a down payment. So I get rid of houses that the ro roe. Your return on equity is just not making enough money.

[Jack]

What's the most that you've lost on a deal?

[Pace Morby]

It's always the only time I've ever lost money on a deal is a flip. Flips are a gamble. They're short term gamble. So I lost money this year. I bought a property that comped at like 1.1 million, had a busy street behind it. So we comped it at 9:50. I still couldn't sell it for 800 and so I ended up taking like a $50,000 bath on that flip.

[Graham Stephan]

Why are you even doing stuff like that? Like at this point I feel like it doesn't make sense for you to try to flip a place to try to make a hundred thousand dollars when you have like all of these buy and holds or when you creatively finance four RV parks to profit $700,000 a year. Yeah, like how do you pick which battle is worth your time? Quick. Thank you to Ethos for sponsoring this episode. Most of us work to take care of the people we love. And when you're the person that they depend on, that's a responsibility not to take lightly. For example, I have two mortgages and payments like that add up incredibly quickly. And let's just say something were to happen to me, I would not want to place that burden on my family.

[Jack]

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[Jack]

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[Graham Stephan]

Like how do you pick which battle is worth your time at this point?

[Pace Morby]

Think, think about this like Dairy Queen. Did Dairy Queen start out with hamburgers or ice cream?

[Graham Stephan]

I have no idea.

[Jack]

I think hamburgers, right?

[Pace Morby]

They start out with ice cream. That's why it's called Dairy Queen, dude.

[Jack]

Okay, I know they had, I know they had hamburgers.

[Graham Stephan]

I don't know.

[Pace Morby]

So what they did is they found that Dairy Queen makes way more money on hamburgers and fries than they do on ice cream.

[Jack]

Right.

[Pace Morby]

The margin is just way bigger. And so they added hamburgers and fries later in the game. Does that mean that they should get rid of their machines and their systems and their processes and their marketing for all their single family houses? See what I did there? So I get like for example, the agent that's sitting to our right called me. I've built a brand. I've built systems and teams that handle all my flips. I don't go to any of them. I don't talk to the contractors. I don't deal with the money. And that little business makes about a million dollars a year. And I only focus in Phoenix, Arizona. So why is that a good business to have? Is because when real estate agents call and they go, hey, I've got a seller in a bad situation. I don't want to put this on the market, I go, well, I could flip it. I'll flip it. And if I say no to a real estate agent, let's say I go to a real estate agent, I go, sorry, it's not a good deal for me. I'm not flipping anymore. What do they do? They then go to the next investor and that next investor is going to get the RV park that they might be listing or the other property that is a co could be a good co living deal. I say yes to things that I already have systems and processes from 10 plus years ago. So why would I turn them off? It's like telling Dairy Queen, turn off your ice cream machine that you already built. You already have this machine because you make more money on hamburgers. Why can't I make money on both.

[Graham Stephan]

So just give a definition of creative financing. Like, I'm five years old.

[Pace Morby]

Okay. What do you have there? What kind of phone do you have there?

[Graham Stephan]

IPhone 17.

[Pace Morby]

Okay, so iPhone 17. You, next year, I'm sure, will upgrade to an iPhone 18. If you don't, you're crazy. It's the number one tool in your pocket. So you're going to upgrade to a new phone. That phone you're gonna go put on Craigslist or you're gonna do something with it. The average person is not jack. So you might use it as a camera or whatever, but let's just say the average person is gonna upgrade their phone to next year. That phone next year will probably sell on Craigslist for, let's say, 700 bucks. Would you agree with that?

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Pace Morby]

So let's liken this, like, putting a house on the market. If I put this phone on Craigslist at 700, am I getting that? 700 on Craigslist?

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Pace Morby]

No, you're not. You're getting an offer at 520. You're getting an offer at 6, which is when you're a real estate agent. This is the crap you deal with, is that you get people that lowball you on your listings. Right. And so instead, I call that phone seller, and I go, hey, it looks like that's been on the market for 30, 40 days. I'll pay you the 700 bucks a month. I'm sorry, I'll pay you the $700 you want for that phone, but I want to pay you a hundred dollars a month for seven months. Are you willing to do that? And so they're willing to wait for the 700 bucks to get their number, but they have to just take it incrementally. I take that phone, go make money with it. That's creative finance. So I do that with planes, I do that with businesses. I do that with RV parks. I do with all sorts of stuff.

[Jack]

What's the weirdest thing you've created?

[Graham Stephan]

Financed?

[Pace Morby]

I'm trying to create a finance and a train right now, because I want to train in my backyard that I turn into, like, an Airbnb type of thing. But the weirdest thing I've actually completed on owner finance was an American. A vintage American flag that was, like, a $5,000 flag. I pay the guy 50 bucks a month for 100 months.

[Jack]

Why not just pay the guy the money?

[Pace Morby]

And because I did, I made a YouTube video out of it just to show people, like, I can literally create a finance Anything? I'd say the.

[Jack]

A hundred months. How?

[Graham Stephan]

You're like a firm?

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, I'm like a firm.

[Jack]

Isn't that like eight something years?

[Pace Morby]

He could he his off. The best offer he got was like 3200 bucks. And so think about this. His American flag is vintage. It's been sitting in his whatever barn for whatever amount of months. He's not doing anything with it. So for him, he's like, fine, if you give me my 5000 bucks, it sits on my barn in my mon in Montana. And I call my Montana farm the Creative Acres. And so when people pull up, I go, yeah, I bought that with Creative Finance. The plane my son flies, he's a pilot. Now, that plane I bought no money down, no interest, and no payments for two years. And I work. I worked a deal with the seller. I said, I want my son to get into a point where he's making money as a pilot. And the guy goes, I never had a son. I always wanted to teach him. If you buy this at my number, which is like 118 grand, is an older plane, then I'll sell or finance it to you. And I go, but he's not going to make money for two years. He goes, that's fine. We'll structure a deal that when he starts making money, that's when the payments start. So you can do anything. Planes, houses, RV parks. I've got a landscape company under contract right now. I've got a wedding venue in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee, under contract. There's nothing you can't do with Creative Finance.

[Graham Stephan]

It sounds like you do too much. You're starting to acquire wedding venues and you're trying to buy a train in your backyard to rent as an Airbnb. That's where you live. Why are you.

[Pace Morby]

It's not an Airbnb. Like, I will rent it out, but when I have guests come over, I don't want them in my house. I want them like, out in the train.

[Graham Stephan]

You want them in the train?

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, I want them the truck.

[Graham Stephan]

Okay. So I just feel like at this point, like, you, you must have some very excellent operators.

[Pace Morby]

I have 200 employees. I have great partners. I. I don't. Have you been to my office in Tempe? I mean, you've seen my operation. It's a big operation.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Pace Morby]

Like, I have. I've done videos with Cody Sanchez. She's like, how the heck are you doing all you're doing? And then you meet my team and you're like, holy crap. Now, I started very small. I started My Prius, I met with real estate agents on houses they couldn't sell back in 2013 and I built it up from there. And then when you get one asset that makes $10,000 a month, I could either A, live on that money or B, I could take that money and go and acquire a good talented person.

[Graham Stephan]

So how can someone use creative finance to build wealth Then like starting from zero, what would you recommend if you were to replace your, your knowledge that you have right now? Let's say you go back to being an 18 year old person with $0. What would you do?

[Jack]

And here's the other thing too. I've noticed you had. It seems like you have to be a good people person. Like you're a good communicator, you have good confidence. I think if you walked in as a bit sloppy, you know, it wouldn't come off the same way.

[Pace Morby]

I agree. But I also have people from all over that, people that learn from me. I mean you've had people on your that have watched our previous episodes, literally took action from what they did, came back and sold me a deal. And I'm like, you are the sloppiest person ever. How did you get this deal under contract? When a seller's in pain, a seller.

[Graham Stephan]

You're talking about our viewers being sloppy

[Jack]

now you guys heard that?

[Graham Stephan]

Okay, that is, that is, I'm fighting

[Pace Morby]

words right there, but I've bought a lot of deals from people that have watched your episodes. They've come back to me, which is what I love about your channel. I've probably, I don't know, I've probably done a good 50 or 60 deals just from people that have watched your channel, done what I said and then came back to me through my DMs and said, Hey, I have a deal. Do you want to buy it? So they're not super practiced. When you find a seller that is in big significant pain, the solution is sub 2. The solution is seller finance. The solution is a lease option. It is the only solution. It's not a cash solution. In fact, I would argue that probably 10% of deals on the market right now should not be selling for cash. And when a seller truly understands creative finance, how it saves them money, they get more money. Saves them money on taxes, they get more money long term on the interest rate. Why would an intelligent investor or intel intelligent seller ever sell for cash? In fact, I would tell your parents to never sell anything cash. You're going to give 25% of it to the government and then what they do is they take their nest egg that they earned. Let's say, for example, I've got a RV park. I've got an RV park. Seller's name is Eric. And Eric wanted to retire. He bought the park for 1 million. 15 years later it's worth 5 million. Okay, so what's his gain? He's got a $4 million gain. How much is he going to give to the government? A million dollars? Is that what you want your parents to freaking do? And this is what people are doing is like, oh yeah, just list on the market. Yeah, great. So we're going to pay a broker, another broker. We're going to pay freaking capital gains tax. And your parents are now left over with out of their $4 million gain. They're left with like two and a half million bucks. Then the worst part is now where are they gonna put the money? In stocks? Cause nobody loses money on stocks. Right? Like that doesn't happen.

[Jack]

Well, stocks have done incredible these last few years.

[Pace Morby]

Oh yeah, last couple years. Just like multifamily people, you know, having their good run. Right. The reality is the best thing your, those parents or these people should invest their money is in is back into the asset as being the bank. They can avoid the capital gains tax, they can get interest on their money and it's an asset they understand better than anybody else.

[Jack]

So it's interesting, I'm listing, well, I just listed one place for sale in LA for offers over asking.

[Pace Morby]

Oh yeah, by the way, I believe it.

[Jack]

That's going through. I'm listing another place in a week and a half, probably a 1, 3. Now I got a 3.675 interest rate on it. Why shouldn't I sell?

[Pace Morby]

Okay, so what's your sales price? I just guess I'm it like. Okay, so 1.3. And you have an underlying loan at let's say three and a half percent.

[Jack]

Three and a half percent, yeah, 2, because I, I did a pledged asset line to, to build out the ADU in the back. So blended, I'll call it 3.7.

[Pace Morby]

Okay, cool. So you got 3.7. And what's that total loan amount like combined?

[Jack]

725.

[Pace Morby]

Okay, so you have roughly 600, let's just say $600,000 in equity. For you, an intelligent investor that is young, you should not sell this on seller finance. I'll give you an argument, but I think you should sell that, take that money and 1031 into something else. I know you don't want to be in real estate right now, so you Want to be out, I want to be out. I think the problem with most people that are out on real estate, like Cody Sanchez, I've seen her on your channel go, oh, people don't make money in single family houses. I'm like, really? Let's go look at my P. Ls. Let's go look at. I don't do regular rentals. That's another problem. Regular rentals are where people get their asses handed to them. So right now get up to 15%

[Graham Stephan]

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[Pace Morby]

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[Graham Stephan]

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[Pace Morby]

homedepot.com how doers get more done for you. I would take your $600,000, pay your gain, roll that $400,000 into something else, or not, you know, whatever you're going to do with that 400 grand. But let's say that I'm older and I don't want to roll that money into something else. I don't want to tie my capital to something I don't understand. That's a very quality piece of real estate. Would we agree and in 10 years it's probably going to be worth more than the $1.3 million could be. Okay, it will be. Obviously, it's L A. It's going to continue.

[Jack]

I don't know, man. L A has gotten rent.

[Pace Morby]

I don't know.

[Jack]

2014 Spencer Pratt for for President Santa Monica selling at 2014 prices. If you had bought in Santa Monica multifamily 2014, you've made no money in the last 10 years.

[Pace Morby]

I think you're smart for you specifically selling that asset for cash. Like I said, 90% of people should sell cash, 10% should sell. In creative finance, the argument would be this. Let's say you relisted this property, but you said for rent, rent to own, right? And you let people do a lease with an option to buy 10 years down the road, and you let them lock in a specific payment with you, but you sold that asset to them. Not for 1.3 million. You sold it to them for 1.6 or 1.7 at a future option. So you're locking in an extra three or four hundred thousand dollars on that property and you'll collect cash flow along the Way. So doing a lease option would make you more money. It'd keep your money tied up in an asset that you trust, or at least that you've. It's made you money. And you'd have 10 years. And at the end of that 10 years, you get 3, 4, 500,000 extra.

[Jack]

Yeah, but then you have the risk of, well, let's say there's a big earthquake.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah. This is why you have insurance. So I think the bigger risk is something different. The bigger risk is if that tenant doesn't complete the transaction and now you take that asset back. In my world, I call that the after party. I want that to happen. So when I sell on a lease option, I want that tenant to fail on their option for whatever reason. We could. Man, we could talk about lease options for five hours, and they come back and they go, hey, I need an extension. No problem, $20,000. I'll give you an extension for two years. But let's say 70% of lease option tenants don't actually execute their option. What do they do? They move out. I get the house back, I resell it again on a lease option. I get an option fee, and I just go do it again. We're selling options. Selling options, yeah.

[Jack]

Jack loves options.

[Graham Stephan]

I love options and stocks. Yeah, of course.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah. Did you guys see the homeless lady I helped out?

[Graham Stephan]

Yes.

[Pace Morby]

So that homeless lady I helped out, what I did with her is I go, let's buy a sub 2 deal. No money out of pocket, literally, from a cot in her homeless shelter. And let's turn into a rent by the room. And so what she did is she has one room she's living in and nine rooms she's renting out, and she's bringing about 850 per month per. Per room. She's using a pad, a website called padsplit.com to manage all of that stuff for her because what does she know about investing? So if I'm young and I want to have a place to live and I want to kind of, like, arbitrage a sub 2 deal, I would go to creativelisting.com I'd buy a deal on there, and I would rent out the rooms, and I'd have a free place to live for the rest of my life.

[Jack]

Are you looking at the broader housing market and determining what you're buying and what you're not buying, or do you only care about cash flow?

[Pace Morby]

Okay, so I've made some big mistakes in my career. My biggest mistake is that I branched out my single family properties. I have I at one point had 300 single family properties, which is about 275 more than any human being should ever own. And most of them were in 15 different markets. And so I am now selling things that are in markets other than Maricopa County. I will buy RV parks. I just bought an RV park in New York. I bought an RV park in Reno or Lake Tahoe area on California side. Like I'm buying real estate in California and New York because they cash flow and they're good assets and they're not ugly pieces of crap either. Like your audience might go, oh, you're buying pieces of crap. No, I'm not. I just bought an RV park. It's called In Town RV Park. I just closed on it two weeks ago. All Seller Finance sellers are retiring. It's the number three RV park in the country. USA Today just came out with a big article saying these are the top 10 RV parks. Mine's number three. But at seller Finance, no money out of pocket. So I will buy stuff that makes sense where I can get into it with as little leverage as possible that makes money on day one.

[Graham Stephan]

What is the main obstacle for the average person in order to get to a spot where they can make these deals happen? Is it like an education thing? Is it a motivation thing? Is it just a charisma thing?

[Jack]

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[Graham Stephan]

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[Jack]

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[Graham Stephan]

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[Graham Stephan]

And we totally agree. But also, you actually really want someone who wants to be there.

[Jack]

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[Graham Stephan]

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[Jack]

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[Graham Stephan]

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[Jack]

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[Graham Stephan]

is ZipRecruiter.comich meet your match on ZipRecruiter. What is the main obstacle for the average person in order to get to a spot where they can make these deals happen? Is it like an education thing? Is it a motivation thing? Is it just a charisma thing?

[Pace Morby]

I have a lot of people that are friends of mine that are not very charismatic and do very, very well. I have people that are immigrants that don't even speak English well and they do very well with creative finance. It's in primarily, I'd say it's like 10% education, 90% execution, like anything else. I mean, you guys have had some incredible freaking guests on your show and I'd say 90% of people just don't do anything with it. Like, they love it, they consume it, but it's executing and going out and making a mistake. They're afraid of making a mistake.

[Graham Stephan]

So what do you think is the best thing that you can possibly say to get someone to execute? Like, if they're listening to this right now, they Want to creatively finance something, build asset value, what would you say?

[Pace Morby]

I'd say go to creative listing dot com. Somebody's already negotiated a deal, got it under contract. You can just take that deal and go do something with it. You, it removes 99% of the risk out of the transaction.

[Graham Stephan]

Do you own Creative Listing?

[Pace Morby]

I do not. I do not make money on it. I don't get a, I don't get paid from them.

[Graham Stephan]

Do you make money on education?

[Pace Morby]

If you looked at one of my education products called Gator, one of my three, that thing loses like 40 grand a month. So what is, what is Gator? I just tell people I teach people how to do private money lending. Like hey, you might be a nine to fiver and you have $50,000 and you want to jump into a deal, but you don't have time to manage it. You could also partner with somebody else. I teach them how to do that kind of stuff.

[Graham Stephan]

How is education then?

[Pace Morby]

Because then it helps the other members of my other part of my community, sub2, they end up funding their deal. So sub2 community finds the deals, Gator helps fund those deals. And so I've create like this really cool ecosystem where they help each other out and.

[Graham Stephan]

But what about any other ways that you educate for money?

[Pace Morby]

I don't get paid to educate for money in that regard. I buy like this year I'll buy a hundred million dollars in real estate from people I teach. Right. Like David for example, finds me on your guys podcast and I'll buy a get a free house out of it. So the more podcasts I go on, the more books I write. Like my book I wrote with biggerpockets a couple years ago, that book sold hundreds of thousands of copies. I think I told bigger pockets, take all the money and give it away. I don't want the money. I want people bringing me deals. So I make money off people bringing me deals. One thing I did when like 2013 to 2018, I had an acquisition team that I managed. I don't like salespeople. They're high turnover, high maintenance, high commissions, all that kind of stuff. And the main thing with salespeople is what do they want to do? They want to take your job, at least in my experience. So what I did is I go, let me just educate the masses, build a YouTube channel and people will bring me deals and I'll either partner with them, buy those deals, or help fund those deals for those people. People.

[Graham Stephan]

What's the most money you've ever made on a deal?

[Pace Morby]

Cash Flow wise, my best Asset makes net $100,000 a month. It's a Tucson property. It's La Primera at Green valley in Tucson, Arizona. Look it up. It's 161 unit multifamily I bought for $20 million. Seller finance. The seller owned it for 35 years, was afraid of capital gains. His, his kids didn't want it. We bought that deal at 20 million, no money out of pocket. He gave us a 4% loan with a 20 year balloon. And on day one, that was netting about $65,000 a month. Now it's netting a hundred thousand dollars a month after we've raised rents and done some stuff. When you go to buy your next primary residence, what are you going to do? Are you going to just go pay it off cash or you want to go get debt?

[Graham Stephan]

I would love to creatively finance it.

[Pace Morby]

Okay, so all you have to do, this is so simple. Okay. Any where do you want to tell me your crossroads? Where do you want to be? Primary or neighborhood? You want to be in Summerlin? Okay, Summerlin. So you want to be in Summerlin. I bet you right now I could pull up a deal in Summerlin and call an agent. We should do this on an episode. Like, let me just do this. I could call. I don't call agents on Sundays. I respect people on Sunday.

[Jack]

Oh, no, Sunday's the best day to call agents.

[Pace Morby]

No, it's the day that you get yelled at. And also people like, don't you respect family time?

[Jack]

I'm like, I don't know any real estate agent that doesn't work on a Sunday, bro. I know that was my busiest.

[Pace Morby]

95% of real estate agents, Graham don't work any day. What are you talking about?

[Jack]

Sunday's the day. Every agent holds an open house on Sunday.

[Pace Morby]

Those are the ones that don't have any business. Only agents that are doing open houses have no business at all.

[Jack]

I would disagree. I think some big listings, good agents get in there, they meet all the neighbors. They meet. They meet.

[Pace Morby]

Oh, yeah, for sure. Like when you have the listing and you're doing an open house, you're trying to get your.

[Graham Stephan]

For sure.

[Pace Morby]

I agree with you. You. Okay, so here's a company I also don't own, but this is what we use. There's a company called Dealsauce IO. So if you go on deal sauce and you map into Summerland and you find listings that are over a hundred days and you click on the no equity button and then you reach out to those agents and say, hey, Would your client be willing to let me take over their mortgage? That's how you get a sub two deal. It takes two steps in like three clicks of a button and you've got a list of people in Summerland. I bet you there's. It's a large master plan community. I bet there's 15 people in there that are listed over a hundred days right now. Agent is not, you know, confident they're going to be able to sell for cash. And this seller probably has a 4% or lower underlying mortgage.

[Graham Stephan]

What are your thoughts on the overall real estate market over the next 10 or so years? You're obviously, you have to be bullish on it.

[Pace Morby]

Like, I think Single family is going to have a big shift and it already is happening. And the shift that's happening is people. I don't like this. So when people roast me in my DMs and tell me, oh, you're the one that's ruining our neighborhood. What's happening in Single family right now is what needs to happen in single family is that nobody's figured out a solution to affordability. Right. Two things are actually happening in your city right now, massively. Go look up padsplit.com right now. There's probably three or four hundred houses that are room for rent right now. So what's happening with single Family is most investors are converting over to a pad split model where they're renting out the rooms. And then the second thing that's happening is what's happening right now in your city, which is incredible boxable. And developers are working with the city and the city is giving grants to developers to take up all these, like empty dirt lots you guys have everywhere. Those are going to be in tiny. All those are going to be tiny homes. In seven years, your entire city is already going. It's going to be completely full of tiny homes, boxable, built. Your city is coming out with grants for these developers to rent out to people that can't afford it. It's already happening.

[Jack]

See, I don't think Vegas has a affordability problem. There are so many houses out there that you could rent for dirt cheap. You don't need to buy a house.

[Graham Stephan]

The problem, you could find a house

[Jack]

down the street from me for rent right now at $2,650.

[Pace Morby]

You can't tell me that 2,650 bucks is not affordable for the average person. So the average it is.

[Jack]

You rent it with a buddy.

[Pace Morby]

Guys, tell me in the comments right now if Graham is wrong about this, he's wrong.

[Jack]

20 650.

[Pace Morby]

Okay. Renting. There you go. You're renting with a buddy.

[Jack]

No, you're just getting a friend. Assuming you can't pay 2650.

[Pace Morby]

Okay.

[Jack]

By the way, and that's a nice area. That's Summerlin.

[Pace Morby]

I agree with you. But here's.

[Jack]

You could find rentals, but 1300.

[Pace Morby]

Do we agree that people are lazy overall? Graham. I don't know. Graham's like pessimistic half the time and then like the.

[Graham Stephan]

He's like.

[Jack]

I just, I'm just. I think, I think it's just, I think 13 disagreeable. No, I think 13 to $1500 is absolutely affordable for almost anyone watching.

[Pace Morby]

Okay, so pad splits. Average rent is like 850amonth, including utilities, Internet cleaning and landscape. 850amonth and they're renting out a room. So what's happening is they're saying, hey, that buddy model of like let's split the rent, they're saying, let's get it even lower because things are getting so freaking astronomically expensive. And so what's happening right now is your single family market, especially in your non hoa neighborhoods, are getting gobbled up with co living investors. In fact, a lot of Airbnb investors are switching over to the co living model. And the Airbnb people are just abandoning that whole model.

[Jack]

I just see with the vacant lots, they've been vacant for decades.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, it's like, what are people gonna

[Jack]

do with them bringing in plumbing, electricity, foundations, roads. It's not viable to put a boxable on there. A boxable works when you're putting it behind someone's house. When you're putting it on a piece of land that you've owned for a long time and you want to go and like put in a.

[Pace Morby]

But who's paying for it?

[Jack]

They have it. No one's living in boxables right now. Listen, I love the concept of boxable.

[Pace Morby]

It's already been approved. The first two acre lot is like five miles away from here. The developers already gotten money from the city and boxable is coming in and putting these.

[Jack]

I would love to see them do it at scale because they've been saying this now. They've been saying it for five years. For five years they've been raising money saying, ah, it's coming, it's coming any day now. And if one jobs, fine, but I want to see at scale for under $300,000.

[Pace Morby]

If the government is going to be in charge of it, it's going to fail. When you have private Developers coming in that say, hey, I'll take care of it and I'll, I'll run it. This is what's now starting to happen. This is how the first project just got approved like, like two months ago. It's going to take over your whole city. It's going to take over Phoenix.

[Graham Stephan]

And what does that tell you then about the overall real estate market? Like, how do you think that's going to affect the.

[Pace Morby]

I think the world that we live in is getting so separated between the haves and the have nots. And so you either focus as a real estate investor on ultra luxury, like Grant Cardone, good friend of mine. I love Grant, he's focusing on luxury apartments. Or you focus on affordability. It's one of the two. That's it. You're not. There's no middle ground. In 10 years, there's no middle ground. There's no middle class. There's not all of that's going away. So like people buying properties like this, this is up, this is upper, upper middle class buying a cool property like this. People can't afford stuff like this and it's just going to get worse. Jobs are going to go away. I see Elon talking about, oh yeah, we're, you know, we're going to produce. I love, I'm a huge fan of Elon. Like I think anybody is. Even the Democrats that hate him secretly probably love him secretly. But I love Elon. He says we're going to be into a phase where like, nobody has to worry about money. I'm like, when's that going to happen? And how do people pay their bills? Do we just get government credits? I think the middle class is going to go away. So you either as an investor, focus on ultra affordability, which I'm choosing to do because it's a lot larger problem to solve, or you focus on ultra high end luxury. Like high end luxury. I'm sure you're seeing this. They have no problem. Those houses sell for cash and the people that are buying those don't care about interest rates. They're just paying things off with cash. Right. So it's bonkers to me when you go into certain areas, like Paradise Valley in Phoenix. Do you guys know that city?

[Jack]

That's really nice. That's where we were.

[Pace Morby]

Average film there. Okay, so you guys got a bunch of people in Paradise Valley, which is like right where I live, and you've got houses at 25, $35 million. Those people are paying these houses off cash. So that's a completely different World, let's push them to the side. Also, your guest, what was his name from LA that was like, oh, creative finance is not a thing. Jason often, okay, he only focuses on the 1% of the 1% of the 1% of people in the ultra luxury. And when I talk to him on the phone, he's like, yeah, you're right, that's who I focus on. Push those people out. That's not real estate investors. They're not. Nobody's doing that. You got to focus on affordability. If you're not focusing on affordability, you're going to get your handed to you. Airbnb.

[Graham Stephan]

Do you have any words for Jason Oppenheim?

[Pace Morby]

Like, have we called him right now? Like, yeah, he's genius. I told him on the phone. I think you had me and him on the phone. I think he's a genius. I'm just saying you have to compartmentalize these conversations and be like, Jason focuses in Beverly Hills where none of this is applicable. Like none of what we're talking about with affordability is applicable in Beverly Hills. Those people are like a hundred million bucks, no problem. 20 million bucks, no problem. And half those properties are probably paid off with cash.

[Graham Stephan]

But then you do have have a ton of middle class residential single family homes. And so you're saying those to be those will no longer exist as middle class homes. You're going to need to pad split them. You're going to need to do rentals.

[Pace Morby]

Five things that are happening right now. So the number one thing that's happening, big, massive. Look@ padsplit.com or furnished finder.com I do not get paid from either one of these companies, but Furnished Finder or Pad split dot com. Look on their website and see how fast their listings are growing rapidly. Not just from people converting airbnbs over, but just people like me. I'm bought. I bought a house for no money and I'm turning into a Co Living property. So Co Living is huge, massive. This is taking over the world. Drug addiction is a big problem in this country. Right. So what's the government doing? They're funding people like Oxford House. Again, nonprofit. I don't get paid from them. Oxford House is coming in and taking these houses from people like me and go. We'll pay you whatever your mortgage payment is, plus $2,000 sublease, triple net. So we take care of the repairs, we take care of utilities, we take care of literally everything and we'll give you a five year lease.

[Graham Stephan]

How do you get approved for Oxford House?

[Pace Morby]

Call oxford house up oxfordhouse.org they're turning

[Jack]

them into sober living facilities because they get money from the government.

[Pace Morby]

Yep.

[Jack]

I would argue, not saying they're associated with this, but a lot of them that, that I got some shady, shady people.

[Pace Morby]

I agree with you. I agree with you.

[Jack]

The whole thing, it reminded me kind of of the hospice thing where it's like you'll go into these places and

[Pace Morby]

they're scamming insurance companies. There's a lot of them that do this for sure.

[Jack]

Not everyone.

[Pace Morby]

Oxford House is not. I work with Oxford House. We have a bunch of properties with them all over the country. They're great. But there's a lot of people that utilize that strategy as a shroud to steal money. Another company is called Padmission.com so Padmission.com is kind of an amalgamation of every non profit in the country that helps out like battered women's shelters and all of those types of things. People that are maybe handicapped. So again, government funding, what's happening? Padmission is coming in and leasing properties plus 2000 bucks. So whatever my mortgage payment is, they're coming in with government funding. So like where people are going to be? Well, what about Section 8? Dude, Section 8 barely gets approved on any house. Section 8 has to be approved. The voucher has to be approved. I dabble in Section 8 just like anybody can. But am I a Section 8 investor? Am I an Airbnb investor? Am I a co living investor? No, I'm an investor. Right. I don't like if you're a watch collector, do you only buy Rolex? By the way, your guest the other day, what was his name?

[Graham Stephan]

Nico.

[Pace Morby]

He's so freaking good. Yeah, he's, he's one of my favorite YouTubers. I love him. Talk about everybody.

[Graham Stephan]

He's the best.

[Pace Morby]

By the way, I almost wore my hue blue and. Just kidding, I don't have you. So you've got, and then you've also got assisted living and then tbi. So traumatic brain injury stuff. So what's happening with all these single family houses? They're converting over to other asset types like the, the house I just bought from David. I was talking to the seller, Melissa and Kenneth, and I said, well, you know, I might turn this into a sober living or something like that. You know, I'm in their living room talking to them and go, oh yeah, we've got three sober livings right here in our neighborhood. So these neighborhoods all over the country are converting into government funded stuff.

[Graham Stephan]

So basically your argument is you take real estate away from people that can't capitalize on it very well or they don't want to be a landlord, they don't want to have the burden of turning their house into a business. They want to continue doing their W2 job or whatever it is that provides their income. And you're able to go in, get this house, their equity, whatever it is, you're able to sub to the house, acquire it in some way and then capitalize better on it. How are you able to decide which of these like five different branches of like sober living or you want to do pad split or you want to do, you know, like for battered squad

[Pace Morby]

giving you this question? That's the freaking greatest question.

[Graham Stephan]

I'm just curious, like which which of the five.

[Pace Morby]

Okay, so something to teach your whole audience is that you as a real estate investor do not determine the strategy. The house determines the strategy. So what we do as investors is we go market for pain. Okay, so I don't go find houses, I find pain. What am I looking for? Foreclosure, divorce, bankruptcy code violations. I'm looking and marketing for pain. People with no equity, people that have been on the market for a long time. Expired or canceled listings. Pain, pain, pain, pain. I don't look for houses, I look for pain. As they come into my funnel and I talk to those sellers or those real estate agents, depending on if I'm direct to seller or direct to agent, I then determine, hey, this house is four bed, three bath, no hoa. What would that be? That's going to be a pat Split it. If it's a three bed, two bath house and it's in an hoa, I'm going to do sober living. So the house and its size and whether it has an HOA and sometimes it's proximity to public services, I will then determine the exit strategy based on what the house tells me.

[Graham Stephan]

What's the overall most profitable thing you can do with a single family home?

[Pace Morby]

Co living.

[Graham Stephan]

So that would be pad split.

[Pace Morby]

That would be pad split. And the reason being is because the average pad split is eight bedrooms. And so even when you have a tenant leave, it's kind of like a multi family environment in a single family property.

[Graham Stephan]

So I have a friend, Spencer Cornelia and he had.

[Pace Morby]

I love Spencer.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, he had a few like co living houses.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, he self managed them.

[Graham Stephan]

I think three of them caught on fire. Yeah, yeah. It was not one, it wasn't two, it was three.

[Pace Morby]

Shout out to. Shout out to Spencer. I love Spencer. I think he's genius. He's done A great job with his brand, but he was self managing his stuff like a knucklehead. You just get, give the Property over to PadSplit, let pads split, take care of it.

[Graham Stephan]

And so it mostly has to do with tenant selection.

[Pace Morby]

Tenant selection, Pads split screens them also. What's interesting is like if you're self managing a co living property, you're doing your own lease agreements. PadSplit will screen all the tenants, they collect all the money and then they're the ones that set up the agreements. They market your property for you. What Spencer was doing is doing all the self management stuff. I think it was because he was trying to save the 8%. And so for me, if your property, think about this, the property I, I just bought a deal a couple of weeks ago, the underlying mortgage is 3.5% decent. Our average interest rate that we're taking over is like three and a quarter. Okay, so people are talking about, oh, I'm at six and a quarter on my mortgage, guys. Our average is three and a quarter quarter. So I get a three and a half percent interest rate. The mortgage is about 3100 bucks. But I'm gonna bring in $9100 on a pad split. After my management, my utilities, my cleaning and everything else, it'll net about 3,000 bucks. So the cost for other people to handle is about $3,000 a month. What am I trying to save money for if the property's gonna make me 3,000 bucks a month and I, I got it with no money outta my pocket. Where Spencer, Shout out Spencer. Genius, love him. Where people like that go wrong is like, I'm gonna try and, you know, change my own oil and save 40 bucks. What are you doing? Just have Jiffy Lube do it. Have padsplit do. What are you doing? So yes, you're gonna have problems if you try and do stuff yourself.

[Jack]

So you think he just picked the wrong people? He didn't screen.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah. And how does Spencer have that much time to be screening and talking to any, I don't know, one tenant's name I've never looked at. I don't even know what my tenant agreements look like. What is he doing?

[Jack]

How do you prevent it that the tenants don't fight amongst each other?

[Pace Morby]

Oh, the great question. So the average tenant. Oh my gosh, I wanna. Can I take you to one of these houses next time I'm hanging out with you guys?

[Graham Stephan]

Maybe I'll take Jack.

[Pace Morby]

I think Jack, I think Jack is willing to go into one of these houses. I don't know if you are. So Jack, do you remember the house you turned down me down on? I didn't turn down on.

[Graham Stephan]

Don't even start with me right now. No, I, I, Yeah, I do. Of course it was. Or whatever.

[Pace Morby]

Dang good memories. Yeah. So Myrtle is the name of the property. That property has nine tenants in it. We've never had a problem. The average tenant is a, is usually like somebody who just graduated from nursing or graduated from college. They don't have a lot of money and they have student debt. And so they're looking at saying if I can pay 850amonth, utilities included, I can pay off my student loan debt. So they're, you know, close to a bus stop. They're close to whatever. They don't want to see anybody. These are not just regular people off the street. They're usually working professionals.

[Jack]

So.

[Pace Morby]

So I think the, my biggest thing when I first jumped into padsplit type of business was where are they going to park. Half of them don't have cars, so that's not a problem. They're going to fight with each other. They don't. I'm sure Spencer's do because he didn't screen them. But we're getting people that are like recently graduate graded from school and their biggest motivation is I got to pay off student loan debts.

[Jack]

And where do most people fail?

[Pace Morby]

Managing stuff themselves is probably the number one thing that I would say people fail at. Yeah.

[Jack]

What's the biggest mistake they make when doing that?

[Pace Morby]

Bad tenants not being really nice to tenants that give you a bunch of crap. Like they say they're gonna. Maybe you've dealt with this in the past where a tenant says I need three more months or I need three more days and it turns into like now I gotta foreclose on, I gotta get you outta here, I gotta evict you, whatever. So you just have hard lines. You say no, no, no, we're not trying to charge you an extra fee, we just gotta get you out. What I like about Padsplitz model is that it's not a regular tenant landlord relationship. These people are part of a club. And so there is no like formal eviction process. So you can kick them out right away.

[Jack]

What areas would you refuse to buy in?

[Pace Morby]

In terms of buying rural and if I'm buying RV parks, I'll buy anywhere. Right. I've got parks in Big Spring, Texas. I've got parks in Odessa, Texas. Like oil filled country places you would never want to visit because they make money. But when you're talking single family. I don't want anything rural. Nothing rural.

[Jack]

What about places like California, Los Angeles?

[Pace Morby]

Single family? Hell no. There's no way I'm buying a single family property in California. No freaking way.

[Jack]

But you'd buy multifamily.

[Pace Morby]

I would buy. I would not buy multifamily either. If a human being is going to raise a family there, there ain't no way I'm going to California, Washington, Illinois and New York. No way.

[Graham Stephan]

Why?

[Jack]

Just because it's not affordable?

[Pace Morby]

Or then because you're. The politicians hate you. They don't want. It's like, think about this. If my dad owned a Subway sandwich franchise and somebody came in, had my dad do all this work, build a sandwich, and at the end he asked for the money and they walked out with the sandwich, that would be theft. So in our world of being a landlord, if somebody walks away with free rent, that's theft. And my states that I invest in, the red states primarily, there's blue states that are really good, Colorado's not bad, and some other places. But the red states treat it like a business. Get the hell outta my house. This is my product. I sold this product to you. You didn't pay. Get the hell out of the house. The blue states are. Well, these are real human beings. Well, yeah, so am I. I'm also a human being too. And somebody in the comments could be like, oh, you're such a landlord. Piece of. Okay, maybe I am. But I give them affordable rents. My rents are always 10% below market rents and we give them great properties to live in. There is no possible way I'm going to California. I mean, you guys in la, you have this thing. I don't know what. You know more than I do. You have to pay your tenants to leave when you decide you're not going to renew the lease. Like you have to pay tenants like 40,000 bucks.

[Jack]

That's depending on the circumstance. But yes, in Santa Monica it was crazy. I think for a one bedroom you had to pay 27,500 doll. If you raise rent as an owner occupant higher than 10% a year and they leave because of the rent increase.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, there's. In the other states there's none of that happening. Zero.

[Jack]

So good, so good, so good.

[Pace Morby]

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[Jack]

How would you fix the housing market then? If you could go to California and wave a wand and say, I'm going to fix the housing market, things are going to get more affordable, we're going to bring back development, what would you do?

[Pace Morby]

I think the red tape, I mean, you look at Pacific Palisades is a really good example. It's like, look how long it's taking. No permits have been issued, none of that kind of stuff. So I think that's a big thing. Same thing in Hawaii. Like, look at that big fire that happened, what, three years ago and still no buildings happening. So it's the red tape, it's the bureaucracy. I would fix a lot of that stuff. And then I would also incentivize builders. And I would help. I would actually try and subsidize the builders to build more stuff. The other thing I would also do is unlock a lot of government. State land that's just barren. Like, look at. You've been Arizona much. We bro, we have hundreds of thousands of acres of state land that people could go build on, but they don't unlock it. And it's nothing. Nobody's recreating there. Nobody's doing anything there. Unlock some of the property, Let us use some of it. I would, I would fix it that way.

[Graham Stephan]

So you said you think that the middle class is just going to continue shrinking and shrinking and shrinking. What are your predictions then for like the overall. Like, how do you know that's going to happen? The overall economy. What are your predictions?

[Pace Morby]

It's happening right now. The, the middle class is getting eroded right now. I mean, look at the. How does anybody. And this is weird and I'm going to sound really entitled here, but how does a regular family survive on less than $10,000 a month? You have one kid, insurance is 1500 bucks. I mean, the, the middle class is getting eaten alive. If you don't own a business or own an asset, there's no job that is paying you as much as the cost of things are going up. So it is happening, it has been happening, is just going to get worse.

[Graham Stephan]

So how should a member of the shrinking middle class reframe their mind or educate themselves better or like, what do they exactly do to be a part of the haves?

[Pace Morby]

I would listen to what Cody Sanchez says. Look, listen to Alex Hermosi. Listen to half the guests that you guys have on here, you have freaking the best guests on the planet and I would own an asset that pays you. So for me, my favorite assets I own are RV parks. They have no management. The people that manage those RV parks live at the park. They raise their families at the parks. I have no management. There's so people that are afraid of having single family houses. I get you. I don't like regular rental on single family. I would go to like a Creative Listing or crexi.com or LoopNet.com and I would look at RV parks that are all on Owner Finance. If you go on crexi.com I don't own the website. I'm sure you've heard of Crexi.

[Graham Stephan]

It's massive.

[Pace Morby]

If you go on crexi.com and you go in the search bar and you type in owner finance, do you know how many properties right now are for sale on owner finance? On CREXI, 16,000. Like this is not obscure.

[Graham Stephan]

But then if there's so many things being offered and this is such well known stuff like wouldn't it be too competitive to be able to find like a, a truly great deal?

[Pace Morby]

Yeah.

[Jack]

And how many of those 16,000 are worth buying?

[Pace Morby]

I don't know. That's a good question. I know that when I look at an RV park, we could jump into that conversation. But I look at an RV park, I usually have to look at 40 to buy one. But that's because I'm buying stuff that if it doesn't hit a net cash flow of $15,000 a month, we won't even submit an offer. And so there's a lot of parks that get sent to us from brokers that just don't fit that buy box. Like somebody sent me in San Antonio the other day, a 12 pad RV park. It brings in $3,000 a month in revenue total a month. Like I'm looking for $15,000 a month net. So you'll. I'll look at 40 RV parks and probably 30 of them are not even a good fit. So 1 in 10 that I submit an offer on, we get a contract on.

[Graham Stephan]

And then what about getting a good deal? Like how, how are you even able to do that these days with the amount of competition? You said 15,000 listings on Crexi. All of this stuff is becoming very

[Pace Morby]

well known you in the comments. If you're a broker that actually understands creative finance, tax implications of a seller, inheritance law, all of these things, 99% of real estate agents don't understand it. And 90% of brokers don't understand it. So my competitive advantage is that when I call the brokers and the brokers can't sell a park for whatever the seller wants to sell it for, I go, I can get you the number, but you're going to have to get educated on how we get there. And so most of what I'm doing is getting them their number, but I'm just structuring the terms to benefit me.

[Graham Stephan]

And so what are the best negotiation or sales strategies that you employ when you're trying to get a good deal and really quick?

[Jack]

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[Graham Stephan]

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[Jack]

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[Graham Stephan]

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[Pace Morby]

Scrolling.

[Graham Stephan]

I've actually personally used Shopify several times. In fact, before I was working with Graham, I set up maybe five or six different drop shipping stores. And I kept going back to Shopify because it's genuinely the easiest way to start an online brand. They also handle literally everything from inventory to shipping to returns. Basically all of the complicated stuff that you do not want to deal with.

[Jack]

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[Graham Stephan]

the link is also down below in the description. Thanks again to Shopify for sponsoring this episode. And so what are the best negotiation or sales strategies that you employ when you're trying to get a good deal logic.

[Pace Morby]

And I don't use like one liners. I'm not a big salesperson, like an Andy Elliott or somebody like that. I don't, I'm not a big salesperson. I understand what the seller wants. So for example, RV parks. When a seller's selling a cash flowing machine, why are they selling? This is the most mind blowing thing for me. Why would a seller sell a property that's netting their family 25 grand a month? Why would they do that? Hassle, maybe they never, they're called, we call them accidental landlords. Their CPA told them you should buy real estate because you'll get depreciation. Now they own an RV park and it became their full time job and now they've sat there at RV park for 20 plus years and they're like nobody in our family wants us. So accidental landlords, they never bought a second one. So if you want to pull a list of RV park owners, pull, there's 27,000 in the country. You can pull a list, distill it down to one park owners. It's like 92%. Most RV park and mobile home operators are single like operators mom and pop. What are their, their biggest concern is I want to retire and enjoy my life, but I've been stuck in the park. They never learned operational efficiencies, they never had software. They never knew how to delegate to a team member. They don't even know like 90% of the sellers I talk to don't even know. There's a website called work camper.com again a website I don't own. W O R K A M P E R where you can just find people to manage your parks and they'll come in there and live at your park. It's a mind blowing, they're incredible. What they're doing is they are raising their families, they're homeschooling their families. They want to live in an RV park, raise their kids around there and then every six months move to a new RV park and see different parts of the country. There's like 35,000 people on workcamper.com and the site is free. Sellers don't know it exists, Right? So you go to the seller and you go, I can help you retire. I can get you a monthly check, I can get you the number you want, I can help you avoid capital gains tax, I can get your broker paid in the process. The seller's like, why hasn't my broker told me about this like you, you got an agent right here. Nobody told his seller, besides him, nobody talked to that seller and said, said, the lady works at Merrill lynch and she goes, I've never heard of this before. She manages all these big families. And I go, you've heard of family seller financing stuff? She's like, oh, this is similar to seller finance. So like even a high level lady at Merrill lynch who's subtuing her house to me did not know what creative finance was. It's just, I don't know if it's just commonly not known.

[Graham Stephan]

So of all of these different strategies, like also the, the. I know you're doing car washes now. You're doing RV parks, you're doing single family homes.

[Pace Morby]

You're doing car washes now, bro.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, hopefully we'll see.

[Jack]

You are.

[Pace Morby]

I'm g. I'm.

[Graham Stephan]

We'll see. I mean, if it turns out like the last one, we'll see if it ends.

[Pace Morby]

I bought, I bought a, I bought a lot. I'm building a car wash in dfw and we just closed on the lot. He's coming in as. I'm bringing him as a, as a partner to show him the ropes.

[Graham Stephan]

Hopefully it works out.

[Jack]

What, what's the catch? If there's no money to come in, it's because otherwise it's. Then it just seems like, oh, I'm going to give Jack.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, Jack will get Jack. So. And the average rb, the average car wash. I'm not a car wash genius. The person you should have on the show is Vic Keller. I've texted you with him. He's incredible. Had an exit with Warren Buffett at $6 billion. Genius, dude. He's been my mentor in car washes right now. So I'm building car washes. We're going to bundle those up and sell them off at some point in the future. But the average car wash nets $43,000 a month in his portfolio. So 5% of that would be like 2100 something bucks a month.

[Graham Stephan]

I'm curious of all these different things. You have the car washes, you have the RV parks, you have single family homes, commercial real estate, yada yada yada. What is the most profitable in terms

[Pace Morby]

of overall RV parks? Not even remotely close.

[Graham Stephan]

So what makes it more profitable?

[Pace Morby]

There's no management, there's no capex. Like think when you go to, when you go to one of my RV parks, which I hope you will at point, you will walk out there and go, where are all your employees? There are none. And then People go, oh, you should buy laundromats. No, you should not buy laundromats. You should buy an RV park and put a laundromat on the RV park so that the local community can use that laundromat at your RV park. But your RV park is the main staple. There's no management, really. The person that does manage it does live on site. You find these people, they work basically for free rent plus a couple thousand bucks a month. They raise their family there, and there's nothing to fit. It's gravel. I've got gravel and maybe one or two little buildings. Multifamily. My biggest asset. I have a big asset in north Houston. It's 580 units, bro. 580 tenants moving in and out of these freaking units where we're constantly fixing the property. It cash flows, it makes money. I'm happy about it. But if I could. This is my personality. I look at Grant, I look at other people are doing what they're doing. Nothing against what they're doing. In fact, Grant's way smarter than me, I think. Thing. But on the RV park side, it's a lazy asset that makes a lot of money, and you can buy a good one for like three to seven million dollars on seller finance. And they net 30 to $40,000 a month after every single expense. I call them the only asset that's a one and done. You buy one and you're done. Like, you can buy one RV park and be done.

[Graham Stephan]

What's the hardest part of making an RV park successful? Is it like, buying the actual lot of land, getting it in the right area, or is it, like, marketing it?

[Pace Morby]

My. My hardest RV park is Glacier Peaks in Montana and Mountain View in Montana and Bear Grass RV park in Mon. Right by a Glacier National Park. So what's the problem with Glacier National Park? Seasonal. So six months out of the year you lose money. The other six months out of the year, you make a ton of money. So it balances itself out. So those ones are challenging. I would not advise somebody starting out and buying a seasonal RV park right out the gate. I have other RV parks like in dfw, Tennessee, New York, California, Big Spring, Texas. Those are all, like, permanent residents that stay there permanently, and you don't really have a lot of turnover. I've got one under contract in Odessa, Texas, where the average tenant's been there for seven years. So it's like they're all different. They're. They're not the same.

[Graham Stephan]

Isn't RV parking, though, sort of like A middle class thing?

[Pace Morby]

No, it's local.

[Jack]

It's.

[Pace Morby]

It's low class. So you're renting dirt from me for like 400 bucks a month, but then

[Jack]

you bring in your own trailer.

[Pace Morby]

They bring their own. Yeah, they bring their own trailer.

[Graham Stephan]

So who. Oh, but I thought you said it was seasonal, like people. Oh, so you're saying they would rent it for like six months?

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, they rent. They rent. So my seasonal.

[Graham Stephan]

It's not like a vacation thing?

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, the ones that are seasonal, they're coming in for like the national parks. They're recreational. Then there's other RV parks like my Big Spring. Yeah, my Big Spring. Nobody's going to Big Spring, Texas to vacation. They're going there to live there to work in the oil field. And so what happens is the oil fields come to us and they go. Our employees have nowhere to live. We are giving them a per diem. Can we just give you a contract to rent out all 40 spots? And so the oil field companies will rent out the spots for their workers.

[Jack]

So does it even make sense anymore to get a property with a conventional loan?

[Pace Morby]

The brrr people that teach brrrr and like sell brrrr courses are going to lie and say yes it does.

[Jack]

Why would it, why would it make sense? Why would they say.

[Pace Morby]

Why would they say that? Because they're buying in like half assed cities that are like $40,000 per house so that they can buy a house for 40 grand, put $10,000 down, renovate the property, put all this time and energy into it. The problem with the brrrr strategy is what? It works first and foremost. It just doesn't work that well. And it also dies in bad economies. The Burr strategy has basically been decimated

[Graham Stephan]

the last five years. Years.

[Pace Morby]

So you buy the property. How do you buy the property? Hard money. Like 90% of these guys are going and buying a freaking rental property with hard money. On day one, they're putting down payment from their retirement account. It's the worst strategy when you really think about it. They go get a loan to then buy the property with hard money. They then renovate the property with their cash or a private money lender. They then rent it out, then they can refinance it into a second loan. And now what are you gambling on? What's the average Brrrr deal take? 3 to 4 months. Is the interest rate in 3 or 4 months gonna be the same as the interest rate that I bought it today? No. So you're gambling on. I hope my. I hope my loan Is good in six months when I'm done renovating and stabilizing the asset. I think it's one of the most challenging strategies on planet Earth. If you tell a brand new person, go get a loan to then renovate a property, to then refinance that property, you're getting two loans on one deal. It's not a beginner strategy.

[Jack]

It's a really, really challenging two loans. But not at the same time.

[Pace Morby]

No, but you're getting a hard money loan which is hemorrhaging at 10 only then you're gambling that that deal will refinance and banks are actually lending money in six months. Let's say you bought a deal in January of 2023 that you thought, oh, interest rates are going to stay at 3%. This is what happens with all the multifamily syndicators. They're gambling with debt. I don't gamble with debt. I go to the seller, who is the number one bank. The number one bank on the planet is the seller. I go to the seller. Will you give me permanent debt? I'm going to buy this deal and I'll pay you a monthly fee. And if I run into a bad situation, I can renegotiate that debt because the seller doesn't want to take the house back. I've never had to do that, but I can technically.

[Jack]

I mean, that strategy really works so well. I haven't heard of anyone doing the BRRR method in years.

[Pace Morby]

It's been five plus years.

[Jack]

It was really from 2012 through 2019 that that strategy really got popular and worked consistently.

[Pace Morby]

Because interest rates market appreciating will allow a BRRRR strategy deal to work.

[Jack]

But also interest rates were so stable, they were like, like predictable. 3% to 4%, maybe 4 and like and a half. It's like over a year.

[Pace Morby]

If you look at like one of the, and I won't say his name because he's a good friend of mine, but if you look at one of the big, original, bigger pockets hosts, he lost his entire BUR strategy portfolio last year. Why? Because he bought on adjustable rate mortgages. And so what happened from 2022 to 2025 is all his rates doubled, his cash flow shrunk. I don't have that problem. Problem, like Creative Finance does not have that problem. Sellers are not giving me adjustable rate mortgages. They wouldn't even know how to pitch that to me. So I'm getting permanent debt that does not have balloons. And I don't have anything that's maturing. Like everybody Else right now. Look at, if you go on X right now and you look at everybody that's a multifamily syndicator, they're talking about the bloodbath. One of my favorite guests you guys have is Ken McElroy. He's the only intelligent multifamily guy that is online. He is so freaking good. He is one of the smartest dudes on the podcast planet. He has patience, so much patience. And he's buying like, and he's planning things 10 years in the future. Multifamily is a very, very challenging game because you're playing the, you're playing the battle of I'm waiting to see what the bank is going to do in creative finance. You don't have to do that.

[Jack]

Do you think that now is a bad time to buy a house?

[Pace Morby]

Overall, you and I will disagree with this. And the, the disagreement you and I have is that I think people that rent are stupid and people that buy are smart. Smart. And the reason being is because you're going to make the argument and I think we should have this fight. Renters will ultimately have more money to invest in the stock market, but they won't be.

[Jack]

It could be anything.

[Pace Morby]

They won't, they won't. The average consumer in America will just spend that on stupid. When you get locked into a permanent savings account, which is a mortgage that forces your family to save in that house, that is the American dream. And that is why I disagree with Grant. I love you. Granted, I disagree with him. I think the. Not you, not me, not you. You're intelligent, you're investors and you're thinking intelligently. You will and most of your audience will rent a property and intelligently take that extra savings that they're not putting into a bad mortgage or a high interest rate mortgage and they will invest it. But 90, I'm making that number up. A very high number of people will not.

[Jack]

Yeah, but the only counter to that is that if they're not paying rent, if they're not investing the difference, then they're paying the difference anyway. Probably the bank to probably insurance companies. Probably property taxes, repairs and maintenance, which is arguably more than what they could just rent for.

[Pace Morby]

I know they for sure their mortgage is going to be, let's say their mortgage is $2,000 higher than their rent. I still think that they should get

[Jack]

a mortgage unless they stay there for like 10 to 15 years.

[Pace Morby]

Agree.

[Jack]

Which the average person is also is not. And so in the first year, so little is going to equity anyway that it makes no Difference, they may as well just save the money.

[Pace Morby]

The first 10 years. Almost none of it goes to equity. Right. It's like the amortization schedule basically dips off after like 11 years. So the first 10 years you're getting your handed to you. But the reality is if people are not forced to save, they will not. And the, the math shows it right. You, you look at the average person that's renting, their net worth is like 40 grand. The average homeowner, their net worth is 400.

[Jack]

I don't think that's necessarily the house. I think it's the type of person who's able to save it. Down payment is the type of person to buy a house, who is the type of person, person to be smart financially overall. But I don't think it's necessarily just because they bought the house.

[Pace Morby]

If I, if I went to Jack and I said Jack, you're going to rent or you're going to buy a house, what do you think is better

[Graham Stephan]

for you in a vacuum? I would say buy.

[Pace Morby]

Okay, right.

[Graham Stephan]

Like right now in the, in the context of the economy and like my own financial situation, I would say probably rent.

[Pace Morby]

Interesting. Okay, what about you?

[Jack]

I would rent 100% if the houses that.

[Graham Stephan]

It depends if I'm responding like of for me particularly. But then again like my situation does not apply to 99% of people. Yeah, it makes sense to rent. But like for, I agree with you like on this side of the, the argument here, I would agree that realistically even if you're only saving $500 a month in equity and it's like $2,000 a month in interest, realistically, people are not going to be saving that. Like if you look at consumer debt, if you just look at like debt in general, like people are not saving money whatsoever.

[Pace Morby]

I agree.

[Graham Stephan]

Period.

[Pace Morby]

Everybody's got credit, all that kind of stuff.

[Jack]

But maybe that's because they're paying six and a half percent mortgage rates and property taxes.

[Graham Stephan]

Just said that like the average worth of like people higher than the average.

[Jack]

But, but those surveys caught people who have owned real estate.

[Graham Stephan]

So now you see I was just like shifting goal.

[Jack]

It's, it's entirely different when you say, when you look at also properties purchased in the last two years, a lot of those have negative equity. I see a lot of places in Vegas too where they bought 2021 and they cannot sell for the same price today.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, that's taking a lot. That's where I, that's where I buy sub two deals else and I, I take A house that somebody is maybe underwater on and I will convert that into something that cash flows and then I'll let the tenants pay.

[Graham Stephan]

That's a good point. I mean, with that also being said, if you have so many people that are in that situation, then for those it could make more sense to rent. Yeah, but that's also obviously contingent upon, you know, their job security. And usually like.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, I think overall, general speaking, the average renter is not saving money.

[Graham Stephan]

I agree with that. So I mean, the average person, period, is probably not just like.

[Pace Morby]

Right, that is correct.

[Jack]

Yeah. I would still say renting is the better option.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. Explain how you're right. If you're also the person that's making money off of all of these people that bought when they shouldn't have bought.

[Pace Morby]

I mean, look at the investor world. It's a very small subset of people. Right. So I'm talking to a very small group of people. But renters are not listening to you. Right. Everybody here is going to be owners. They're not renters.

[Graham Stephan]

So you're talking about the average listener here. Yeah, but the average person maybe should rent.

[Pace Morby]

No, the average. Okay, sorry. It's the actual opposite. I think you're in, your group is intelligent enough and hyper intelligent that they follow investing advice, they follow Graham's YouTube channel, and they know where to put their money and they're probably smart enough to allocate that money and. What's the word? Disciplined enough. People that are not listening to your show should be buying a house and forcing themselves to save their money.

[Graham Stephan]

But then if the dumb people are buying, then they're going to get foreclosed

[Jack]

on and then you're going to be

[Graham Stephan]

making money from that.

[Pace Morby]

Okay, maybe that's my marketing mechanism.

[Graham Stephan]

I don't know. That's smart.

[Jack]

And then you call them be like, hey, I'll just take over your payments,

[Pace Morby]

I'll take over your payments.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, it's, it's a complicated situation. Realistically. Also, if you are getting foreclosed on in your home, like you probably haven't gone to the lengths of like renting out each room. You probably have not, like tried to pick up every extra shift imaginable, drive drove on Uber on the side, like increase your income, decrease your expenses. Like if you got into a mortgage, chances are barring a divorce or something, like it's going to be really hard to stop affording that.

[Pace Morby]

I would say that the average person that I, I talk to on foreclosure, that are like two months, three months behind and they're still not addressing their foreclosure. And they're just like, yeah, c' est la vie. Those people are highly irresponsible people. And a lot of times they're on drugs. A lot of the times they're in all sorts of turmoil and craziness in their life. But the people that are like, a month before I'm not gonna be able to afford my payment, they're aware. Those people are highly intelligent. They go, I don't want my credit to get bad, and they'll let me buy the house. Sub 2 without any.

[Jack]

Those people would have been better off just renting. Renting. If you're. I think a lot of people. If they. If they're smart enough to come up with the down payment.

[Pace Morby]

But how do they know they're gonna lose their job? Right.

[Jack]

Then they. If. If they don't have enough savings to begin with.

[Pace Morby]

You're almost. You're almost manifesting it. If you're just like, I might lose my job, I might as well just rent.

[Jack]

No, I don't.

[Pace Morby]

I have a different mindset, I guess.

[Jack]

I think it's a terrible idea to buy a house if you don't have a proper emergency fund in place with a consistent income to keep up for anything that might happen in the following six months.

[Pace Morby]

I think the same.

[Jack]

Including.

[Pace Morby]

I think the same about rent. Renting. I think the same thing about renting. If you can't, if you lose your job and you're renting, your credit gets destroyed.

[Jack]

Not at all. Because when you sell a house, your closing costs could be tremendous.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah.

[Jack]

6%. So you have to sell higher than where you bought just to break even, to not come out of pocket.

[Pace Morby]

But who's buying a house to turn around and sell the house right away? And why? Well, that's.

[Jack]

That's. You would hope not. But look at all the people right now who are selling for less than what they paid a few years ago.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah.

[Jack]

And there are a lot of. There. Exactly. But there's a lot of people on Reddit that even said, I bought my house in 2023. I got this fantastic job offer, and I want to take it, but I can't because I owe more. More of my house.

[Pace Morby]

You are literally describing every client I

[Jack]

buy sub to, and they would have been better off renting.

[Pace Morby]

Yep. So maybe they should keep buying so I can keep a pipeline of those deals coming.

[Jack]

You mean renting. They should keep renting.

[Pace Morby]

No, they should keep buying.

[Graham Stephan]

All right, so let's just sum this up. Okay, so we. We finished the this cover who should buy and who should Rent Study and

[Pace Morby]

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[Jack]

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[Pace Morby]

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[Jack]

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[Pace Morby]

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[Jack]

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[Pace Morby]

This is a job for indeed Sponsored jobs. Your audience should rent. Everybody else should buy.

[Jack]

I think who should buy? If you find a place that you love, that you know with high conviction that you're going to be living there for 10 to 15 years, that you could comfortably afford it it with maybe 20 to 25% of your gross income and you get a competitive interest rate, then I think it's okay to buy a house now. But I think if you're unsure of what your career is going to be doing, if you're not sure of the area you want to live in, I think for the next five years or so it's probably better just to rent it out financially.

[Pace Morby]

Okay.

[Jack]

Unless I agree with you, it is an emotional decision, in which case you just love the house and money's not a factor because you can't factor and

[Pace Morby]

like love for somebody or you make babies. You can't factor that in. Yeah, I would agree with.

[Jack]

You could make babies in a rental though.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, but nobody wants to birth a baby in a rental.

[Graham Stephan]

You could.

[Jack]

You could rent out the rooms to different nurses.

[Graham Stephan]

Oh my gosh.

[Pace Morby]

Okay, that's true.

[Graham Stephan]

How do you invest your money outside

[Pace Morby]

of real estate lending?

[Graham Stephan]

So you have a very interesting approach to invest. You lend out your money. How do you lend it and what returns do you get?

[Pace Morby]

And why is that sane? Returns?

[Graham Stephan]

How is that sane? Safe?

[Pace Morby]

It's not. Lending money in any capacity is not safe. I can create all the stipulations. I can have liens, personal guarantees. I can have cross collateralization. I can have promissory, you know I can have everything and I can still lose money. So lending is not for the faint of heart for sure.

[Graham Stephan]

So what kind of returns do you get lending your money?

[Pace Morby]

Okay, so here's, here's a good story for you. So let's say that I get a good deal from a seller. Seller. And I don't want the seller to know that I'm going to wholesale that transaction for a hundred thousand bucks. What I will do is I will close on that first transaction with hard money and then the very next day, sell it to my buyer so that my seller doesn't know I made a hundred grand and my buyer doesn't know I made a hundred grand. That's a double close. There's thousands of those happening in every single market every single month. So many of those transactions.

[Jack]

Now why don't you want your buyer to know you made a hundred grand?

[Pace Morby]

If your buyer knows that the closing table and they're, they're, and they're looking at your settlement statement and they're like, are you kidding me? You're making a hundred grand?

[Graham Stephan]

I've done that.

[Pace Morby]

When somebody's wholesaling a deal to me, I'm like, you're making 60 grand on this, bro. Right. And then there's a feeling. And so people just want to avoid that whole conversation so they double close. So let's say that any, what I tell people in my audience is if you're going to make 40,000 or $50,000 on a wholesale deal, just double close. It costs you like four grand. So what I'll do is I'll wire a couple hundred thousand dollars out for 12 hours. It sits at tight, title comes back to me and I make 4 or 5,000 bucks. So I'll make 4% on my money in one day. So when you annualize that, you're looking at thousands of percentage. Now I'm not turning that money every day. I'm turning that money a couple times a week, if that makes sense. So the average amount of money that I'm making is stupid. The lending business is where, I mean, everybody wants to be the bank. It's funny, I avoid banks when I buy. I become the bank when I lend.

[Jack]

Have you ever had a sale not closed once you funded the deal?

[Pace Morby]

No, because your buyer's money is already sitting at time title, so you've already got transaction lined up before I wire my money for, let's say, my borrower wholesaler, I make sure that their buyer, their money is already sitting at title and I then wire the money Close the transaction and they replace my money.

[Graham Stephan]

How do you find these deals?

[Pace Morby]

Instagram, Facebook groups.

[Graham Stephan]

So you check your DMs, people DM you, and they just.

[Pace Morby]

All the time. I get DMs from people, probably 15, 20 people a day saying, hey, I need this thing funded. Also, I get a lot of. Graham will know this really well from his real estate deal days. You'll get banks that will give people, let's say, 70% of their renovation or their purchase, but they need the 30% for the down payment. So I'll do gap lending a lot of times, too. And so I go to hard money lenders. I go, if you ever have a borrower that doesn't have the down payment, let me cover the down payment. So I'll do the gap and then I'll also do the renovation. So a borrower, let's say a borrower comes to me and says, pace, I want to buy this house right here. But I don't have the full amount of money. The hard money lender is going to give me 70%. I need the other 30% to close the transaction. I come with the 30% and then I give them the renovation money so when they close, they can start renovating. What I do is I take the ownership of this asset to protect myself. So I own the asset as I'm lending. So I'm not technically a lender. I'm actually the owner and I'm owning the property that I'm putting money into. And if they default or they can't run the transaction, I take the deal, the deal back.

[Graham Stephan]

So they put trust in you or you have this like a promissory note or some sort of contract.

[Pace Morby]

I mean, I'm the. I'm the one that has to have the trust. I'm the one that put the 30% down.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, but you didn't borrow the 70% on hard money.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, but I brought 30% down and covered the construction cost us.

[Jack]

So I would argue his is just as risky.

[Pace Morby]

Now, am I going to lend on a deal that I don't want to take over? We call it loan to own. So if I. If I am okay owning that property, if they default, I will loan on it. And so I'll do. I do a lot of weird stuff. I have a Chipotle right now. You guys know who Cody Sperber is?

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

Oh, wait.

[Pace Morby]

Actually, yeah. Clever, clever investor. So Cody Sperber, his team just borrowed like $900,000 for my company. They bought an old Pizza Hut. They're gutting it Turning it into a Chipotle. They've got the Chipotle lease lineup up. Their team's gonna make like 3 or 4 million bucks. My team's gonna make 900 grand. And they needed the gap money to finish that transaction. So I do big stuff too.

[Jack]

Why would they need 900 grand? It seems like just a insurmountable or it just seems like an insignificant amount for like Cody Sperber.

[Pace Morby]

Because they're doing a lot of transactions. So they'll do like, they'll buy a bank and convert into something some like shopping center. They'll buy a thing and do other things. So Cody's got a whole bunch of things going on. So he'll go, hey, I need a little bit of money here, a little bit of money there, and a little bit of money there because I've got so many things going on.

[Jack]

Stressful. That sounds like hell to me.

[Pace Morby]

This is like every real estate. This is every real estate investor.

[Jack]

Awful.

[Graham Stephan]

What's the worst Things have gone south for you?

[Pace Morby]

Okay. Worst thing that has ever gone south for me happened a couple years ago where I bought a house from a seller, sub 2. So no money out of pocket. And the sell. This is cardinal sin of creative finance. You never let the seller that you just took their house over rent the property back from you. It's rule number one. Do not do that. Why? Because their payment's 2,000. I took over the $2,000 payment. In order for me to justify the profit, I have to rent it back to them at 2,500 bucks. Bucks or more. So this person goes, I'm now not going to move out of this house. And they refuse to move out. And it took me like a year and two months to get them out of the house. So that sucked. So cardinal rule. I broke the cardinal rule. Why? Because I had the financial ability to stomach that. But I tell people, if you're going to buy a house from a seller or you're going to buy a house from sub 2 or seller finance, either way, never let the seller stay in the property.

[Graham Stephan]

So you flew here from Arizona. You're only here for four hours. Did you fly private?

[Pace Morby]

No, I very rarely fly private.

[Jack]

Private.

[Graham Stephan]

What net worth can you afford flying private?

[Pace Morby]

I could afford flying private. Now, like, I'll. I will fly private when I can't get a flight. But the problem. Think about this. I'm flying to Montana a couple years ago. My buddy Steve Harward, Shout out Steve Harwood owns two jets and he buys both for the tax benefits. The Problem is you got to have pilots. You gotta have a hanger. You have a management company, got all this crap in these planes. Like, Ed Mylett has two planes. Why? Because one plane's working, the other one's in the shop. Like, dude, that sounds stressful to me. Me and these are hemorrhaging, depreciating assets. They're horrible. So, Steve, I go, hey, man, I, I'm, I'm trying to get to Montana. All my flights were canceled. Can you send your plane for me? He goes, no problem. Plane's there in two hours. Flies me two and a half hours to Montana. I get the bill. It's like 37,000 bucks. I'm like, dude, I could have fl I had first class tickets for five grand. It's irresponsible, in my opinion, to be flying around even If I'm chartering. 30 grand, $40,000. It's irresponsible. I have team members that want raises, team members that want bonuses, team members that want to go to Hawaii. Why would I just throw it on an airplane now?

[Graham Stephan]

I mean, you could just loan, lend out some, some money on the.

[Jack]

You can make that in a day, man.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, maybe. You look at like some of my favorite people you guys have on the show. You guys, have you guys done Dean Graziosi?

[Jack]

No.

[Pace Morby]

Okay. Phenomenal guest. If you guys want Dean Graziosi, he's got a private jet. You've got Ken McElroy, that's got a private jet. What's Ken spending on a private jet, do you think on a monthly basis,

[Graham Stephan]

this probably 300 grand?

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, about $300,000. And that's. Obviously, that includes the loan on the plane, but you've got to have three pilots, two that are flying it, one that's in rotation. You've got to have a, a. It's a nightmare. I don't want to.

[Graham Stephan]

So at what net worth should you buy a private jet?

[Pace Morby]

I don't. I'd probably say $100 million, if that's what you want to do. I'd say $100 million net worth is where you should probably buy a jet. But I still think it's a stupid decision at that level.

[Graham Stephan]

So at what point does it become a Smart decision?

[Pace Morby]

Maybe 500 million, where you're just like, it's f U. F u much money type of stuff. I, I don't know.

[Jack]

I think your time has to make more than what you spend per hour on.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, probably.

[Jack]

So if I agree with that, per hour on the jet is, we'll call it 15 grand an hour. Your time has to be worth more than 15 grand to justify that.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah. And like, think about like, I flew here on Southwest, and I get stopped the whole time I'm walking down the aisle. Are you paying more me? Are you paying more me? Like, yes, I'm Baby.

[Jack]

Coffee hour. Yeah.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah. Why are you here? Are you here for. What's the taco spot? I love here?

[Graham Stephan]

Tacos.

[Pace Morby]

El Rodo. Yeah, I. They go, are you going to go to Tacos? I go, maybe, but I'm here to go to icecon. Oh, I love that show. It's the best. But I get stopped and I'm cool, like, getting stopped and I'm just a normal guy, I think. And you get stopped and that's the most inconvenient thing. But Southwest flies every 45 minutes and it's like 500 bucks to sit in good seat and whatever else. Like, I'm there and back. Right. And so if I'm trying to get to a podcast at three and I want to get back to home with my four kids, I never want to sleep, you know, away from anywhere else. Southwest solves that problem versus having a jet. 40 grand there and back. It just doesn't financially make any sense.

[Jack]

There is JSX that.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah. But they're in infrequent. Right. So I couldn't get a jet thing to land at a certain time and get home at a certain time. You've got to like, balance all this kind of.

[Graham Stephan]

So let's talk about tiers of wealth. Because you've escalated through the tiers of wealth pretty quickly, I'd like to think.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

I'm curious. What are the actual tiers of wealth with numbers?

[Pace Morby]

Okay. Million dollars is nothing. Like, it's just nothing. I think you guys already know that. Like, it's surprisingly not a lot of money. Especially you buy one property worth 1.3 million, you're like, wow, that's not a lot of money. $10 million. I think you get to a point where you can basically live where you want, eat what you want, and kind of do what you want. And you could even put it into like, you know, ETFs, and you could live on $500,000 a year. It's a pretty good number. I think my family office tells me that their average high net worth individual that finally found a significant change in their Life was at 35 million people bucks. It brings in enough passive income that you can make. You can say no more frequently, if that makes sense.

[Graham Stephan]

So you'd say that's probably fu money.

[Pace Morby]

I'd say 35 million is fu money. Like I don't care. People can think what they want of me. Nobody can take anything from me. I have a, I have a financial team. I have a family office. I have corporate structure that if somebody sued me, nobody could take my money. You know the old adage of own nothing, control everything that like you have a team that is highly intelligent. At 35 million bucks.

[Jack]

Is that liquid, like liquid money in the market or is that like invested throughout real estate?

[Pace Morby]

It's invested, I don't think.

[Graham Stephan]

I don't my just in assets.

[Pace Morby]

If I called any one of my friends, even like people that are billionaires that have been on your show that I'm friends with, and I said, hey, I need 10 million bucks. They'd be like, give me two weeks. Right? Like none of them have any money tied like available. And most of them are probably using an S block in the first place. Like they're putting money into. Even I use S block. So I'll put money into a brokerage account and then I'll borrow it on an s block at 4%. And that's how I have liquid cash. But I don't ever have liquid cash. It's in even a brokerage.

[Graham Stephan]

Are there any tiers after 35?

[Pace Morby]

Yeah. A hundred million is like stupid, ridiculous money type of stuff.

[Graham Stephan]

What changes?

[Pace Morby]

You can live where you want, eat what you want, travel where you want. You can have teams and assistants and people working at your house. It is literally there's nothing that is off limits. You can go to any event, any event you want. You can send to somebody a text message and anybody's going to reply to you. You, you get, your name gets thrown around. Everybody wants to bring deal flow to you, right? When you're worth a million, nobody sends, sends you deal flow. When you're at 35 million, you get stuff here and there. You get hit up. I'm sure you guys get hit up all the time. When you get to like a hundred million, it is non stop. You almost have to have a, you have to have a family office protecting you from everybody outside. And so for me, all, all the time I'm telling people, yeah, I'd love to look at your deal. Send it over to Seth, send it over to Ryan. And you have somebody protects you from ever saying yes or, or no.

[Jack]

How do you protect your assets?

[Pace Morby]

I have two family offices. So I have a company I use. I don't get paid to affiliate with them, but the name of the company is do wealth, and I have another company called Wild West. So I have two family offices. One does more brokerage stuff and asset protection. One is more technical. So if I'm going to buy an asset, they underwrite the asset, they verify the asset, they do the background checks on the seller. So if I'm buying, like, a wedding venue, my family office will go and do all the underwriting for me before I even say yes, you or no.

[Jack]

What do you pay them to do that?

[Pace Morby]

Oh, seth wild is 0.55% of my brokerage account. So very small. So let's say I've got $10 million with them. I pay him, like, 50 grand a year to do all of that.

[Graham Stephan]

That's crazy.

[Pace Morby]

Do wealth is 11 grand a month, flat fee. They don't make any money on anything they bring you. So they're 11,000 bucks a month. I don't. I'm sure she wouldn't mind me saying this, but, like, what's really cool about my family office is it's a fractional family office, right? So you hire a family office, like do wealth, for example, and they've got 200 other families that they manage money for. So let's say I have a really big deal I want to raise money for. Where do I go? I go to do wealth, and I go, hey, you already know my net worth. You know, I can cross collateralize this. This deal I need to raise money for. So, like, Cody Sanchez comes to me and she goes, hey, you want to throw 500 grand in this deal with me? I go, yeah. She had this really cool fund that popped off, and I was like, I'll jump in the next one. And I go, but talk to my family office and see if they'll raise money for you too. And I think they went and raised like $10 million for.

[Jack]

For her.

[Pace Morby]

So, like, having a family office is also a really great way to raise capital from other wealthy families because you basically have the social proof. You're in the circle. Your money's being managed. They know who you are. They've seen all your corporate structure. They've done all your background checks. They've ran your family's insurance car. Like, I don't buy a car on my own anymore. I text Seth, hey, Seth, will you talk to this person and get a thing? Hey, I need a new. This person wants to do X, y, and Z with me. Will you handle that? I don't deal with any of that stuff.

[Jack]

How rich do you have to be to have a family office?

[Pace Morby]

Office I think 10 million bucks. I think your net worth like you could hire do wealth at 11 grand a month. It's like having a 17 person team for 11 grand a month. If you're worth, if you're worth 10,000 or $10 million and you don't have a family office, I don't know what you're doing. Like you're managing everything really.

[Graham Stephan]

But that's still like, I mean that's not insignificant. That's like a one point, what, 2% of your.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, it's a hundred and twenty thousand dollars a year to have a whole 17 person team to run your own.

[Jack]

It seems high on 10 million to 30.

[Pace Morby]

I think it's low. Like just Ryan on my team is like an acquisition person. How much would I have to pay an acquisition person?

[Jack]

Well, I guess for you it would be different because you're utilizing all these people. If it's passive, then no, someone like me who's just like buying index funds and like buying a car, it's not worth years.

[Pace Morby]

It's where who would be worth it for you is Wild Wealth. W I L D E I don't get paid. I'm just telling you legitimately who I use. Wild wealth is going to charge you 0.55% of your brokerage account and it's going to be a lot more passive. But you go, I need a new insurance policy. They'll get a. For you, I need a new. Hey, I don't like this. Will you change this? Hey, I got into a car wreck. Will you handle it? They will handle all of that. And your brokerage account for 0.55%. It's stupid.

[Jack]

See the thing, I would just do it myself.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, I don't have time for that, bro. I don't have time for that.

[Jack]

Just get my own insurance.

[Pace Morby]

I, you and I are different, right? Like I'm, I'm. I don't know what I am, but you're like a Toyota Prius. You're steady, you're consistent, you're dedicated.

[Jack]

I don't know what, you're like a Bugatti Veyron. Who, who could go, I don't even know what that looks like.

[Pace Morby]

I'm probably, I'm like a crazy one

[Jack]

but, but the oil, expensive.

[Pace Morby]

I'm like, is that what you drive

[Graham Stephan]

on a daily basis?

[Jack]

That's your.

[Pace Morby]

I drive a Prius. I drove a Prius to the airport and I drive a Raptor. I've got a big fan. I've got a F350. I've got a whole bunch of stuff.

[Graham Stephan]

What do you spend, like, your money

[Pace Morby]

on vacations with my family. So, like, I'll go to Disneyland and go, hey, we're doing the VIP experience. It costs like 15,000 bucks to, like, have somebody dedicated to walk you around through the lines, all that kind of stuff.

[Graham Stephan]

What is something that you spend money on? Because you can, but it's never worth it.

[Pace Morby]

Watch. Watches.

[Graham Stephan]

Watches are not worth it. So how much is that watch?

[Pace Morby]

This is probably a hundred thousand dollars watch.

[Jack]

Did you sell or what is it?

[Pace Morby]

It's a Patek.

[Jack]

Can I see it?

[Pace Morby]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Oh, my gosh.

[Pace Morby]

This is my second Patek. This is the Patek I had to buy to buy the Patek I wanted.

[Jack]

Really?

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jack]

So what is. What is this one?

[Pace Morby]

That one's a 5235R. So it's like a train station watch. So it's really hard to read at first because the minute hand looks like the hour hand. So, like, the owner and the founder of Patek has that in hand, his office, as his main clock.

[Jack]

Why did you buy this one?

[Pace Morby]

Because they made me buy that to get the Nautilus that I wanted.

[Jack]

Why not just buy the Nautilus secondhand? Gray market?

[Pace Morby]

It was at a time where even the. The secondhand market was, like, as expensive as just buying it direct from retail. Can you guys hear this?

[Jack]

That's crazy.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, it's a good watch.

[Jack]

So I showed you the.

[Pace Morby]

The tech you have.

[Jack]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I had two of them. I had a real one, and then I had the replica one. And the replica one. I remember we held mine and yours side by side, and it's crazy. They sound almost the same.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, your replica one is really, really good. I really love your other protect. Did you sell it?

[Jack]

I just sold it.

[Pace Morby]

For What? How much?

[Jack]

33 is how much I got from it.

[Pace Morby]

And what'd you buy it for?

[Jack]

33.

[Pace Morby]

That's what's called, I guess, these ones.

[Jack]

And it was actually the buyer saw it from the podcast and reached out,

[Pace Morby]

oh, that's so cool.

[Jack]

And said, hey, if you're selling, I'll buy it.

[Pace Morby]

You should have check this out. I would have sold it on seller finance for 50,000 bucks, and I would have taken a thousand dollars a month for 50 months.

[Jack]

Think about it, man. I don't want to be stretch out

[Graham Stephan]

the car notes to people.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Same thing. I would, but I would have gotten 50,000. Here's what's cool.

[Graham Stephan]

So I don't want to think I

[Jack]

can't imagine three years from now being like, yo, dude, that thousand dollars.

[Pace Morby]

So I sold an F150, like, four years ago. Okay? So this F150 on Kelly Blue Book was worth 21,000. I sold it for 50 grand for 450amonth. I'm still collecting monthly payments. I take it from Cash app. He just cash apps me every single month, and I put that into Cash Apps every single month.

[Graham Stephan]

This guy cannot afford this truck, bro.

[Pace Morby]

Obviously he can.

[Jack]

You're buying Pateks, and.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, okay, so check this out. So you can see. Gosh, you can see. Every transaction I have in here is all from him. So I have. I put 6,700 bucks of it into, like, Cash Apps Bitcoin. But every single month. How do I go to my history here? I never even go in here. So every single month, 4504-504504-50450. All of these are my truck payments.

[Jack]

And then what happens if misses a payment?

[Pace Morby]

I have a tracker on the car and I take it back.

[Jack]

You want to think about that, though?

[Pace Morby]

I want to. I just want to do fun things. Like, I. I think you're.

[Jack]

But why do you have to do that to do fun things? You could do fun things.

[Graham Stephan]

Do you have someone that, like, looks at that? Because I'm sure you don't. Check the Cash app on the 14th of every month. Okay.

[Pace Morby]

You know, it sends me a message, and I think it's funny. I screenshot, I put on my Instagram stories, but, like, I bought a deal here on Whispering Grove in 2019 from a seller named Xavier Year. And he similar situation, bought it on a VA loan. He had a 2.4%, crazy low interest rate, and he got deployed in the army. And he's like, I can't keep this house. I don't want to be an investor. And I go, I'll take the hands, the car, sorry, the house off your hands, but you got to pay me five grand to take it. And he goes, okay, well, I'll give you five grand, but who's paying closing costs? You are. And he goes, I don't have. I don't have the money for closing costs and to pay you five grand. I go, I'll cover the closing costs. You just pay me 250amonth to reimburse me. So he paid me five grand to take us out house. I turned this into a co living. I own it right down the road, and he pays me 250 bucks a month, paying me back from all the or all the closing costs. You can do wild stuff with creative finance. It's wild.

[Graham Stephan]

How do you remember all these people's names?

[Pace Morby]

Because I care. I meet them all. How many hours I spend with your seller, Dave? A couple hours, right? I remember their story, I remember what they do for a living. I remember everything. How can I. This is why a lot of investors don't like real estate agents, is because real estate agents block us from getting to know the seller. And if I don't know the seller, how can I provide a solution for them? And so when I meet the seller, I'm like, oh, I get it, you have multiple kids, you're worried about this.

[Graham Stephan]

All right, great.

[Pace Morby]

Let me move these pieces together, these ingredients and create an offer for you that solves your problem.

[Graham Stephan]

If we played word association, what's the first word that comes to your mind when I say real estate agent?

[Pace Morby]

Lazy. I didn't say brokers. Brokers are very different. Brokers in commercial, like pick up their phone. They're intelligent, they're, they're hardworking. I'm sure even Graham remembers when he was doing retail listings. Most of the agents don't pick up their phone.

[Jack]

So if I had the opposite experience,

[Pace Morby]

the commercial world, you know, is the

[Jack]

commercial real estate agents would never pick up their phone. They only worked 9am to 10pm and you would always leave a message, I

[Pace Morby]

believe, never pick up. I've accepted the opposite.

[Jack]

But the agents I would call would always pick up on like the second ring, almost all of them, or when I'd leave a message. This is all in California, this is all Los Angeles.

[Pace Morby]

I don't know if it's just like unique to California. I don't do a lot of California deals. So brokers that are like if I go on crexi.com for example, and I call any listing on a Sunday at whatever time it is, five o', clock, six o' clock clock, a broker is going to pick up the phone. If I call any listing that's been on the market, retail wise for 120 days and I call the agent, they're not going to pick up the phone. In fact, I text them, it takes three days for them to reply back. So real estate agents, I love working with them. Obviously I got David with me, but I love working with them. I tried to avoid them.

[Graham Stephan]

What about for incomes then? What are the tiers to income?

[Pace Morby]

I, I would say that the basic income level is a hundred thousand dollars a year. Like that's basic. I don't know how people are Surviving a.

[Jack]

On.

[Pace Morby]

On less than a hundred grand a year that have any quality of life. They're living in something small. They're eat. They're, like, budgeting every food item. They're choosing not to drive. They're, like, looking at gas prices. That's probably under a hundred thousand bucks. I'd say over $250,000. You're not looking at gas prices anymore. And you can go to, like, you can go out to eat twice a week. You go to a million dollars a year. You're not looking at flight prices. You're not looking at hotel prices.

[Graham Stephan]

You're.

[Pace Morby]

You're just going and doing the thing you want to do. And you make over $5 million a year.

[Graham Stephan]

You're not looking at anything except private jets, maybe.

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, I mean, I. I've had years where I make more money than that, like my net. And I still look at private jet pressing. Like, that's the most irresponsible. It's like I'm putting money into a gas tank and it's just burning out the back. I meanwhile, I could just jump on a commercial flight, first class. And, like, when you fly enough like I do, you get these crazy benefits. Like, I'm at American Airlines. I have concierge keys. You guys know what that is? They pick you up from your house, they walk you to the terminal, they will pause the plane for you. Concierge key than private, in my opinion. I've flown private, I don't know, 50 times. Concierge key is as good as private.

[Jack]

Is that the one that was like 15 grand a year or it's like 700 a flight?

[Pace Morby]

No, it's invite only. You don't even know how you get it. They send you a piece of a plane as, like a placard. And, like, when you're checking in and they see that you're concierge, they look up and they go, you're concierge. Oh, my gosh. They alert everybody. Cost. It costs no money. You just have to fly a lot.

[Jack]

How do you get that?

[Pace Morby]

You have to fly, like 50 times a year, first class. And then they'll invite you.

[Jack]

You.

[Graham Stephan]

Do you ever fly economy?

[Pace Morby]

Yeah, I flew Southwest here. Yeah.

[Jack]

What's the strongest argument that critics get, right, about creative finance?

[Pace Morby]

It's dangerous. It's very dangerous. It's an overpowered strategy. So, like, think about it. Anybody from your audience can go out right now and buy a piece of real estate with no money out of their pocket, no credit, no bank, no license, and also no experience. And they can take over an asset. Now I tell people if you're brand new, just wholesale the deal to somebody who has experience. But if you don't have experience, you're taking on an asset you don't know how to manage. A lot of people get in trouble. I mean, just like traditional real estate, but even worse, Creative finance amplifies your ability to buy real estate at a 20x margin. And if you don't have the ability to handle that many assets you can get, you can burn a lot of people.

[Jack]

What's the biggest loss that you've seen someone else take?

[Pace Morby]

Right, so this one guy out of Tampa, I can't remember his name, but this guy bought in 90 days about 120 houses, no money, out of pocket market, and bought all these houses, couldn't manage them. And he was like, yeah, eff it. I have. They're all non recourse it. Creative finance is dangerous. Why is it dangerous? It's because it's so effective.

[Jack]

So he screwed the sellers in.

[Pace Morby]

They screwed the sellers. He might even brought on private money lenders. He screwed on. He screwed a lot of people. Yeah.

[Jack]

What happened, what happened to the guy?

[Pace Morby]

Nothing. Like nothing happened to him. I did, I did a whole podcast about like how we should create legislation that changes the way that things work. I think wholesalers should be licensed. I think investors like me should have at least like we have to pay a yearly fee to some. Something that you know, who I am, who, if I do something wrong. Who do you tell?

[Jack]

Probably the Internet.

[Pace Morby]

I mean, it's just nobody looks at that stuff anyway. Like the comments and whatever else. Like 90% of comments. Nobody looks at anything you guys do. But so like people could trash me. Do whatever. I'm gonna go out and buy a piece of real estate tomorrow. That isn't gonna stop me. What will stop somebody is like agents. If you go tell. If I told your broker you did something wrong, I have somebody to complain to, to. Then you have a governing body that I could remove your license and you no longer can be an agent. In the investment world, what do we have? Literally zero regulation. It is the wild wild west. I can do what I want, when I want, how I want. And so creative finance can be very dangerous. When you amplify, I'm an investor, nobody's governing me other than like regular state laws. And then you amplify creative finance on that. It's like giving X Men, like who's the guy that shoots Cyclops? X Men Men. It's like giving a two Year old, a cyclops, eyeballs like he's going to freaking laser a whole house down.

[Jack]

So I'm curious, if you had a million dollars liquid today, what would you do with it?

[Pace Morby]

Lend it.

[Jack]

All of it. All of it?

[Pace Morby]

I'd lend all of it.

[Jack]

You keep no money in reserves just in case the lending didn't work out.

[Pace Morby]

The reserves are my talent and my skill level to go make more money.

[Jack]

What would you say for the average person though if they had a million dollars liquid?

[Pace Morby]

Put in an ETF and keep working your job.

[Graham Stephan]

All right, now we're going to be doing rapid fire questions.

[Pace Morby]

Did you do this last time?

[Graham Stephan]

Probably.

[Pace Morby]

Okay.

[Graham Stephan]

Appreciation or cash flow?

[Pace Morby]

Cash flow.

[Graham Stephan]

Rent or buy?

[Pace Morby]

Buy.

[Graham Stephan]

Subject to or seller? Finance. Both. Single family or multifamily?

[Pace Morby]

Single family.

[Graham Stephan]

Airbnb or long term rental?

[Pace Morby]

Those are both. God awful Regular rental.

[Graham Stephan]

Stocks or bitcoin?

[Pace Morby]

Bitcoin.

[Graham Stephan]

Florida or Texas?

[Pace Morby]

Texas.

[Graham Stephan]

Best market right now.

[Pace Morby]

Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina.

[Graham Stephan]

Texas. Worst market right now?

[Pace Morby]

California. Seattle, Illinois, New York.

[Graham Stephan]

Best strategy for beginners.

[Pace Morby]

Creative finance.

[Graham Stephan]

Worst strategy for beginners.

[Pace Morby]

Burst strategy.

[Graham Stephan]

Most overrated real estate advice.

[Pace Morby]

Do the burst strategy. Get two loans to buy one house when you're starting out. Burst. Brand new.

[Graham Stephan]

Most underrated real estate advice.

[Jack]

Tomorrow morning is knocking.

[Pace Morby]

Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe? Or white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight. Dinner. Dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9% of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop [e-mail] Most Underrated Real estate advice Guys, get a partner on your first deal.

[Graham Stephan]

Biggest red flag in a deal.

[Pace Morby]

Big red flag. I see somebody right now raising money that just lost somebody $40,000. And they're not telling some, they're not telling their audience that they're raising money from that they ever lost money. So I would ask everybody you've ever, you're ever going to invest in, ask them, have you ever lost investors money?

[Graham Stephan]

Biggest green flag in a seller.

[Pace Morby]

Green biggest green flag in a seller. Seller wants to retire, is willing to do no more money down.

[Graham Stephan]

What is the simplest pass for an average person to build wealth?

[Pace Morby]

Buy a cash flowing business attached to real estate. So laundromat, RV park, mobile home park and manage it 15, 20 hours a day and let the thing cash flow as you invest that money somewhere else.

[Graham Stephan]

If you were to leave the viewer with one piece of advice, if they listen to this one piece of advice that will make a meaningful impact in the quality of their life, what is it? If you know that they'll listen to it.

[Pace Morby]

Creative Finance will allow you to buy your own personal home. It'll help you buy a business and it will help you buy a cash flowing piece of real estate without a bank, without credit and without any of your own money. You can go to websites like LoopNet, crexi or creative listing.com and you can find deals that are already ready to be sold and you can buy a deal this week.

[Jack]

Guys, join the early access to all the members.

[Graham Stephan]

Thanks for watching.

[Jack]

Thank you. Channel members. Channel members. They get early access a week ahead. You get the full podcast uncensored as well as Extra dollar com.

[Graham Stephan]

Extra dollar com. It's a credit card thing that Graham and I are starting where if you have. Okay, how many credit cards do you have?

[Pace Morby]

1.

[Graham Stephan]

You are not our.

[Jack]

No, it depends what card you want. Yeah. Which card you have.

[Pace Morby]

I have had a black before. I.

[Graham Stephan]

Okay, okay.

[Pace Morby]

I also have. My team has in a couple of my companies, we have like a Chase really fancy credit card.

[Graham Stephan]

This is, this is a perfect.

[Pace Morby]

But like the credit card Iowa Amex Platinum.

[Jack]

Do you use the Dell credit?

[Pace Morby]

I don't even know what that is Exactly.

[Jack]

So there's $300 a year right now from this card that you're not getting a benefit from in addition to probably all the other benefits this card offers.

[Pace Morby]

Okay. So here's how I use my amex. I spend a lot of money on it every month. Every expense goes through it and then I just take my points and I buy Apple products with it. Am I missing points?

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jack]

They're basically giving you free money on the card if you spend it in certain places.

[Pace Morby]

This sounds like Creative Finance. Sounds like a scam.

[Graham Stephan]

I mean you pay an annual fee for this card, right?

[Pace Morby]

Like 750.

[Jack]

It's no 900 a year.

[Graham Stephan]

And so for a lot of credit cards with the annual fee comes actual bonuses. It's not even like discounts. It's just straight up credits where, oh, you just have 20amonth to Uber that you get. You have 300.

[Pace Morby]

I have this right now, yes. With that credit I don't get access to to it.

[Graham Stephan]

You just have to log into. Log into the Amex portal.

[Pace Morby]

Can I just log into like xmoney.com or whatever it is?

[Graham Stephan]

Extra dollar, extra dollar. That's the thing. So a lot of people have multiple credit cards with different bonuses and these bonuses appear on different bonus schedules. So some are bi weekly, some are monthly, some are quarterly, they make se annually, some are annually for all these different websites. But what we're creating is a dashboard where when is this basically consolidates all

[Jack]

of your credit cards two to three

[Graham Stephan]

months and immediately links you to everything plus a bunch of other.

[Pace Morby]

What is it?

[Jack]

There's going to be a free version and then an upgraded version where you'd be able to link.

[Pace Morby]

Your audience doesn't need a free version. What's my cost? Like 29 bucks a month or something?

[Jack]

No way.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, that's way too much.

[Jack]

It's going to be way less than that. But extradollar.com they could sign up right now to be on the wait list and then we'll give it to the people on the wait list first to try it out.

[Graham Stephan]

Save you money. I know you're not using those credit card bonuses like you should be. Pace, thank you so much for coming on the Ice Coffee hour, guys. Thank you so much for watching. If you want Pace to come back again, let us know down below in the comments.

[Pace Morby]

Have me come back with a laptop and let's make calls.

[Graham Stephan]

I'm down to actually do a call.

[Pace Morby]

Let's like do the actual business. You guys cool to do that for like an hour and a half? Okay. If you guys want to see that, make a comment down below and say bring Pace back. He's probably full of. Show us with the laptop. Bring it right here.

[Graham Stephan]

Will do. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability various 18.