“This Keeps You POOR!” Caleb Hammer Reveals The WORST Money Traps To Avoid In 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: "This Keeps You POOR!” Caleb Hammer Reveals The WORST Money Traps To Avoid In 2025

Introduction In this episode of The Iced Coffee Hour, hosts Graham Stephan and Jack Selby are joined by Caleb Hammer to delve into the most detrimental money traps that can hinder financial success in 2025. The conversation covers a broad spectrum of financial pitfalls, personal responsibility, the impact of mental health on finances, and insights into improving financial literacy and habits.

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1. Understanding the Main Money Traps

Caleb Hammer kickstarts the discussion by pointing out common financial mistakes that keep individuals in perpetual debt. A significant focus is on how misunderstanding interest rates can exacerbate debt problems.

• Misunderstanding Interest Rates: Graham Stephan emphasizes, “[11:03]... lot of people don't understand how interest actually works on their credit cards.”

• Accumulation of Debt through Unnecessary Purchases: The hosts discuss how small, seemingly insignificant purchases can accumulate over time, leading to substantial debt burdens.

• Trap of Subscriptions and Minor Spending: They highlight how subscriptions like OnlyFans and daily small expenditures (e.g., coffee) can bleed finances dry without individuals realizing the cumulative effect.

  "They think they're not making small purchases, but they do." – Graham Stephan [13:17]

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2. Personal Responsibility vs. Uncontrollables

The conversation shifts to the balance between personal responsibility and factors beyond one's control, such as mental health and upbringing.

• Impact of Mental Health and Upbringing: Caleb Hammer acknowledges, “[03:08]... mental health things is a huge thing... addiction is more complicated.”

• Choosing to Change Despite Background: Graham Stephan discusses the importance of taking control over finances regardless of one’s background or challenges faced.

  "It's more about behavior than people think." – Graham Stephan [43:03]

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3. Common Financial Mistakes Observed

Hosts share observations from financial audits, spotlighting specific mistakes that frequently appear among individuals struggling financially.

• Big Car Loans and Manly Purchases: They note the prevalence of large vehicle loans and unnecessary big-ticket items that drain finances.

  "Big cars, big American manly trucks... seven year, eight year loan, 25% interest." – Graham Stephan [23:09]

• Subscriptions and Hidden Debts: The discussion includes how hidden subscriptions can lead to unexpected expenses and relationship strains.

  "People just sit and won't take responsibility for one thing." – Graham Stephan [11:21]

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4. The Importance of Budgeting

Emphasizing the foundation of financial health, the hosts advocate for establishing and maintaining a basic budget.

• Starting with a Simple Budget: Graham Stephan advises, “[33:30]... literally just creating the simpler budget. That's why I made the simpler budget app for the basics.”

  "Understanding just what your income is versus what is going out." – Graham Stephan [33:36]

• Using Budgeting Apps: They recommend utilizing budgeting tools to gain clarity over personal finances and to prevent overspending.

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5. Side Hustles and Additional Income Streams

The episode explores the role of side hustles in accelerating debt repayment and enhancing financial stability.

• When Side Hustles are Beneficial: Graham Stephan states, “[37:06]... It's worth it when it's really worth it. When they don't have wiggle room on the tightest budget.”

  "An extra $500 a month can more than double their progress towards paying off debt." – Graham Stephan [37:06]

• Recommended Side Hustles: The hosts suggest stable jobs like working at local coffee shops as effective side hustles compared to gig-based work like Uber.

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6. Financial Audits and Success Stories

Caleb Hammer and Graham Stephan share insights from financial audits conducted on their show, highlighting success stories of individuals overcoming debt.

• Majority Can Improve with Financial Literacy: Graham Stephan reveals, “[44:45]... vast majority can be solved with financial literacy and discipline.”

  "Only about 5% need extreme measures like bankruptcy." – Graham Stephan [44:45]

• Support Systems for Success: The hosts discuss the importance of providing ongoing support through resources like budgeting classes, investing courses, and therapy sessions to ensure sustained financial improvement.

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7. Relationship Dynamics and Financial Stress

The interplay between financial stress and relationships is examined, with a focus on communication and shared financial goals.

• Lack of Communication About Money: Graham Stephan observes, “[83:44]... no one talks to each other about their money. There's always a hidden debt.”

  "Healthy communication and shared budgeting goals are crucial." – Graham Stephan [84:33]

• Impact on Relationships: Financial disagreements often lead to strained relationships and can be a leading cause of divorce, underscoring the need for transparent financial discussions between partners.

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8. Dealing with Online Criticism and Parasocial Relationships

The hosts address the challenges of managing online fame, criticism, and maintaining personal boundaries.

• Handling Online Hate: Graham Stephan shares his experience with online criticism, emphasizing the importance of separating content creation from personal well-being.

  "Not everyone is going to like the show, and that's okay." – Graham Stephan [115:51]

• Parasocial Relationships: They discuss the awkwardness and potential pitfalls of dating fans, highlighting the need for genuine personal connections outside of parasocial interactions.

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9. Personal Anecdotes and Reflections

Graham Stephan provides personal insights into his financial journey, including struggles with debt and the financial responsibilities of pet ownership.

• Debt Struggles: Reflecting on past financial hardships, Graham shares how small debts and poor spending habits nearly derailed his finances.

  "I was making daily McDonald's payments just to survive." – Graham Stephan [54:32]

• Pet Insurance and Responsibilities: The conversation touches on the importance of pet insurance and the financial burden unexpected pet medical expenses can impose.

  "If you can't afford pet insurance, you can't afford a pet." – Graham Stephan [50:58]

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10. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with reflections on personal growth, the significance of financial discipline, and the aspiration to balance financial success with personal well-being.

• Achieving Financial Goals: The hosts reiterate the importance of setting realistic financial goals, maintaining discipline, and continuously educating oneself to avoid common money traps.

  "It's about behavior and making responsible financial choices." – Graham Stephan [43:12]

• Future Aspirations: Graham shares his dreams of balancing business success with personal life, emphasizing the ongoing journey towards financial stability and personal fulfillment.

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Notable Quotes:

• "A lot of people don't understand how interest actually works on their credit cards." – Graham Stephan [11:03]
• "They think they're not making small purchases, but they do." – Graham Stephan [13:17]
• "Mental health things is a huge thing..." – Caleb Hammer [03:08]
• "Just creating the simpler budget..." – Graham Stephan [33:36]
• "It's worth it when it's really worth it." – Graham Stephan [37:06]
• "No one talks to each other about their money." – Graham Stephan [83:44]
• "Not everyone is going to like the show, and that's okay." – Graham Stephan [115:51]
• "If you can't afford pet insurance, you can't afford a pet." – Graham Stephan [50:58]

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Key Takeaways:

• Financial Literacy is Crucial: Understanding interest rates, budgeting, and responsible spending can prevent individuals from falling into debt traps.

• Behavior Over Circumstances: Personal financial behavior often plays a more significant role in financial health than external circumstances.

• Communication in Relationships: Transparent discussions about money are essential to maintain healthy relationships and avoid financial conflicts.

• Managing Online Presence: Navigating online fame requires setting personal boundaries and not letting criticism impact personal well-being.

• Support Systems Matter: Access to resources like budgeting tools, financial education, and therapy can aid individuals in overcoming financial challenges.

This episode serves as a comprehensive guide to recognizing and avoiding financial pitfalls, emphasizing the importance of personal responsibility, effective communication, and continuous financial education.

Transcript

[Caleb Hammer]

Hey there, Ryan Reynolds here. It's a new year and you know what that means.

[Graham Stephan]

No, not the diet resolutions.

[Caleb Hammer]

A way for us all to try and do a little bit better than we did last year. And my resolution, unlike big wireless, is to not be a raging and raise the price of wireless on you every chance I get. Give it a [e-mail] Switch $45 upfront payment required. Equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first 3 month plan only. Taxes and fees. Extra speed slower above 40 GB on unlimited. See mintmobile.com for details.

[Graham Stephan]

Um, I think I just won my taxes. Yeah, I just switched to HR block in about one minute. All I had to do was drag and drop last year's return into H and R Block and bam. My information is automatically there so I don't have to go digging around for.

[Jack]

All my old papers to switch.

[Caleb Hammer]

Nope.

[Jack]

Sounds like we just leveled up our tax game. Switching to HR Block is easy. Just drag and drop your last return.

[Graham Stephan]

It's better with block. It only takes a couple things to be successful.

[Jack]

What are those things?

[Graham Stephan]

Why'd you get into the debt in the first place? I bought a car for no reason. No, no, no, no.

[Caleb Hammer]

You really become the Gordon Ramsay of personal finance.

[Graham Stephan]

Why'd you get laid off? Scared all the dogs with your laugh.

[Caleb Hammer]

That wasn't very nice.

[Graham Stephan]

That makes sense.

[Jack]

What do you find to be the common thing keeping most people broke?

[Graham Stephan]

It's only five bucks, though.

[Caleb Hammer]

Five percent interest. Yes.

[Graham Stephan]

A lot of people don't understand how interest actually works. You guys have so many cards there. Thousand dollars of Disneyland tickets. After that, another ticket. What is happening? Anytime anyone just sits and it's just like they won't take responsibility for literally one thing that pisses me off. No, no, no, no. Objectively, no.

[Jack]

First document right here.

[Graham Stephan]

And when I always try to tell people when they're not willing to change on the show, I'm just like, okay, go do it. I don't care. But I'm having the conversation of, here's what you should do to actually get your finances in order.

[Jack]

Is it true you're really going to quit YouTube?

[Caleb Hammer]

Foreign. Thank you so much for coming on the iced coffee Hour. Really appreciate it.

[Graham Stephan]

Thanks, guys. Welcome back to Austin. I always love having my dudes in town.

[Caleb Hammer]

Thank you. We always have a lot of fun. And it's interesting because over the last year, you really become the Gordon Ramsay of personal finance.

[Graham Stephan]

Sure.

[Caleb Hammer]

And I'm curious, what guest have you had on that's made you the most upset?

[Graham Stephan]

Having the taquito man himself back Britain. Davy coming on. Trying to pretend like the whole thing is a victim complex. Everything that, all the choices that he's making. Anytime anyone just sits and it's just like they won't take responsibility for literally one thing. Everything is against them and they have no control, which is his ultimate mindset and everything that pisses me off. And that's what pissed me off about him. People can insult me all day. People consult me all day. And he tried, he tried. People try. But that's what upsets me when people just refuse to take at least one ounce of responsibility.

[Caleb Hammer]

Now I'm curious, what is outside of someone's control that you think when they say that, okay, you know what, this person does have a point.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean mental health things is a huge thing, right. So there are some mental health things. Of course, that's where you're like, okay, well what should I do? I should probably go see someone, you know, I should probably, you know, see an expert, talk to people around me, try to surround myself with a good community. That's something you might not have control over. You know, maybe you don't have a good family. You know, we did have one person that was raised in the, or an orphanage community. I guess there's no, no parent and they, they were never adopted and they kind of just got dropped off in a town at 18. So that was, that was. He was on his own from there and that he didn't have control over. He didn't have control if he was going to get adopted or if he was raised by loving parents. So he didn't really, he doesn't community. But you know, we live in the world where if that happens, whatever you're dealt with, that is kind of what you have to deal with. And then what you choose to do from there is still kind of up to you. But obviously we should support each other and help each other and that's what we try to do for him and we've connected him to resources and we're in his corner whenever he has any questions. Yeah. So being raised, of course there's been some people that have had family trauma. Everything childhood relator related, I feel like is like that's what's beyond control. Obviously natural disaster stuff that feels like beyond your control. But also make sure you have the right insurances. Like there are some things you can do more in adulthood that helps alleviate some of the things you can't control, necessarily if your company fails and you get laid off, but you can control if you had an emergency fund before that can't control if your pet gets sick, but you can control if you have pet insurance. So it's more how people are raised and whether or not they have a community. And obviously there's some addiction things where it's like, yes, you. You see someone who has addiction and you're like, oh, just go get help. It's obviously more complicated than that. So that, I mean, that's just a little extra handholding, a little extra support. We had one person who was addicted to drugs of the crystal variant and, you know, ended up going to rehab. And we've been in touch with him, helping him, and we got him set up. Well, actually, there was a promise if he was like, clean for a few months, you know, we'd give him some money to help pay off some of the debt. And we did that.

[Caleb Hammer]

That's cool.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. So, yeah, you know, but obviously it's still more difficult to get out of an addiction thing than just pay off some debt, so. But he still had the control to go to rehab and he made that decision.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah.

[Jack]

And what are some of the worst things you've seen people do with their money?

[Graham Stephan]

Well, I've definitely seen people up their relationships by purchasing OnlyFans. That's been interesting. It's the relationship ending things or it's just like, why would you do this?

[Caleb Hammer]

First of all, how does that come up in an audit? Do they not hide this in their bank statements? Or they go in knowing that, like, I'm paying for onlyfans and my wife is here and you're going to call me out on this. What are they thinking?

[Graham Stephan]

I think we've had a couple guests now that they confess to their wife, usually because it's the dude that's getting it. They confess to their wife on the drive over here. They're like, this is going to come up in the finances, I need to tell you. And yeah, that's dumb. We definitely had one wife. They're. They all use fake names, so I don't remember anyone's name, but she, she was. She was visibly upse that the dude I was calling, like, only fans. Only fans. Only fans. Only fans. The episode we just uploaded today in the host show, now that this is, you know, kind of distant to the post show, dude and his friends collectively put hundreds of dollars together so they can subscribe to Only fans.

[Jack]

Graham, you need to get some friends like that, save you some money.

[Caleb Hammer]

Really?

[Jack]

I mean, that's. That's the. That's the way I didn't realize I.

[Caleb Hammer]

Could even do that.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Jack]

That's incredible.

[Caleb Hammer]

Wait, wait. So wait, explain this. So his buddies were pulling money together to do it through him or what?

[Graham Stephan]

So they could all use one account and subscribe to. Why people would you rather individually have to subscribe right now?

[Jack]

That's genius.

[Graham Stephan]

But why the. Would you rather go.

[Caleb Hammer]

He put more thought into that than.

[Graham Stephan]

He did sacrifice 32 when she found that really bad for them. Now they say he's clean. However, again, this just got uploaded today. People were reading into the episode and I do not want to make an accusation, but just reading the comments. He claims that he has to go to a store and buy a new charger, a phone charger. Cuz he works on the road three times a week, which blew everyone's mind. We didn't understand.

[Jack]

So was it. Was it visas or something that he's.

[Graham Stephan]

Buying maybe to continue that potential addiction?

[Caleb Hammer]

Is it an addiction at that point or is it just like he has a. He has a. He just enjoys three times a week.

[Graham Stephan]

Hiding it from the wife. Not. I'm not accusing him of doing that. It is. Still don't understand the breaking multiple charges a week though.

[Jack]

So he was saying on the show that it was, you know, chargers.

[Caleb Hammer]

I feel like that's. I hate to say it, maybe I hate it. I feel like that's an easy cop out when your wife finds out and be like, no, sorry, I have an addiction. Because then it's like now it's not you anymore. It's like, hey, I'm consumed by this addiction, maybe in private and that. And that kind of alleviates some of the concern with the wife, some of the rift between them.

[Jack]

It's really hard to tell. And I'm sure you've had plenty of experiences and we're going to go into it between people actually. Should they be taking responsibility for the things that happen to them or should they. They not be? You know, I mean like are they a victim or are they just someone who lacks discipline as a very, very hard line to draw?

[Graham Stephan]

A lot of the people, they've just never been called out in their life. You can tell they just haven't really been called out. So they hear that pushback for the first time. Someone really giving them just like no bullshit. This is what I think in kind of my more brutalistic way because I know, you know, I'm my special way with words. And you can see that their immediate instant cope mechanism is. Well, it's because of this. I was never taught this. Here's you know everything's against me and also. But you can see that start to fade away as we record for like an hour and a half. It starts to fade away and you see a little more acceptance. You see a little more emotion in their face as they really start. We go to document, document, document. Almost everyone, almost everyone I talk to after we stop recording us says, that was worse than I thought. They come in thinking it was better than it really was. And they. You can see that in their face throughout the episode. I don't know if that's reflected on camera, but when I'm sitting here, how.

[Jack]

How many audits have you filmed now? But before we get into that, let's talk about rent for a second. Isn't it crazy that it's probably your biggest expense and yet you get nothing in return? Well, all of that changes with Built Rewards.

[Caleb Hammer]

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[Jack]

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[Caleb Hammer]

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[Jack]

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[Caleb Hammer]

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[Graham Stephan]

Dude, I have no idea. We try to film four to five a week.

[Jack]

So do you think you're in probably the mid-00 at this point?

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Okay, so after auditing the finances of hundreds of people, what do you find to be the common thing keeping most people broke?

[Graham Stephan]

A lot of people don't understand how interest actually works on their credit cards. And even when they do kind of understand it, since a lot of people, they always say, oh, but I didn't look at it. You know, I don't want to look at it because it's too scary. It's. It's easier to just, you know, let it be and not think about it. They don't know, like, I call their interest rate out, and I'm like, this is 30%. They're like, I thought this was 12%.

[Jack]

Do they even know the difference at that point?

[Graham Stephan]

At that point, they do understand. Most of them at least understand that difference. Once they at least understand interest. Everyone's wrong. I have to explain interest, and that's okay. But that's definitely the common thread I see throughout, is a lot of people want to bury their head in the sand because it just gets so scary. So they just bury. But then it gets worse. Then it ends in the situation where there's been a few guests this year where I don't see anything but bankruptcy being the only option. And you know, those people specifically where I can't figure out anything on the basic level, I. We set them up with the financial advice or that we partner with, that is definitely the common thread, is they just put their head in the sand, they're scared, and it just ends up getting worse. Then they have no idea how bad the debt even is, and not even that they. They put their head in the sand so much that they will sit here and they'll say, no, you'll be happy to know that I didn't purchase on that credit card. And I had spent like six months since I purchased on the credit card. I open it, there's like five subscriptions renewing. They have no idea.

[Jack]

And are those people. Are any of those people that you audit that are in really bad financial situations also the type of person to skimp out on small purchases? I feel like you can really draw a line between two kinds of people. The people that are very disciplined with, like, the small things. I'm not going to go get a coffee. I'm going to not get avocado. I'm not going to get bacon because it's adding a few dollars. And then the other people that Are like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Do you see a common thread there where, like, you really don't see that archetype of human that saves on those small things to be really in financial strife?

[Graham Stephan]

I don't see anyone that doesn't get the small purchases. I feel like our show always has the small purchases. And they always think that they're getting. They're going out to eat once, twice a week. And then I show them that they get a coffee in the morning and then a, you know, a vending machine during the day and then a dinner at night almost every day. So it's just the. They think they're not making small purchases, but they do.

[Caleb Hammer]

Well, what are small purchases? Okay. Because I saw some hate that you got maybe about a month or two ago, Spotify. Was it that? Yeah, I think it actually, it was. You told someone not to do the Spotify?

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

When they said, listen, it's like $9 a month or $11 a month, it's like the only thing I en. You're like, no, you need to cut everything. You. You have no room for enjoyment.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

Looking back, do you think that maybe there was some room for enjoyment or. No. Like, it's an all or nothing.

[Graham Stephan]

I give people. It's not all or nothing. I give people all the time. Some room. I gave the episode we recorded today. I gave her 20 bucks a month for subscriptions. There are people that I do give room on when they have room. When people are literally going to potentially get evicted from an apartment because they only have 50 left after I give them the most conservative budget, they have $50 left on a monthly basis. I think they can listen ads now. I mean, do I care if someone gets Spotify specifically? No. It just becomes an example throughout where it's like, hey, we can sacrifice something. It's not about. It's not about Spotify. It's about the example of we can sacrifice. If they want to keep Spotify, they can keep Spotify.

[Caleb Hammer]

I think your point that I actually agreed with was that they could get Spotify with the ads.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

Listen to the ads or just YouTube.

[Jack]

YouTube has everything that Spotify already.

[Graham Stephan]

I do YouTube. Apparently the ads are a lot worse on Spotify. The features on Premium. Apparently you can't even, like, skip a lot of songs anymore. Things apparently free Spotify is pretty shitty. But again, it's never been about Spotify. The reason why we kind of made Spotify kind of like almost a meme to always call out is because people would were Good with me telling them to cut back. And the moment they heard Spotify, they would always perk up and almost be offended that because it seems like the.

[Jack]

Simplest of thing that people should be able to afford. Oh, it's just listening to music, and it's not even like television. It's just audible. It's auditory. So I feel like really coming after that's like attacking what people think is like a basic human necessity.

[Caleb Hammer]

But it's also cheap when you think of over the course of a month if, like, if you're not getting much enjoyment anywhere else in life but Spotify.

[Jack]

But it's more expensive if you're paying interest on that because you're not paying it off and you're putting it on a credit card.

[Caleb Hammer]

Even paying 50% interest on $12 a month, like, isn't that bad in the big picture. Like, if they work an extra hour at their job.

[Jack]

I agree, but. But I think you would also probably agree with the sentiment that it's not necessarily about the nine DOL dollars 99 cents and the 50% of that, but it's the string of actions.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Total mentality of the $9.99. Oh, it's not a big deal. Oh, the $3 Starbucks is not a big deal. Oh, this isn't a big deal.

[Graham Stephan]

But it adds up. And that. That's why I push back on.

[Jack]

And that's why I find it really interesting that you rarely ever see people struggling that are the type to skip out on those small little purchases. Very interesting.

[Graham Stephan]

No, we don't get those people because we only have people on that are struggling, and we never have the people who are trying to be frugal on small purchases.

[Jack]

What have you noticed about human nature? Not only auditing the finances of hundreds of people, but also just talking to 500 people. That open up to you.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, Definitely some sense of entitlement. And I hate saying that word because a lot of it gets politically charged. You know, when you hear the word entitlement in our culture, it's, you know, politically charged. But a lot of people think that they had a hard day at work and are entitled to pick up the meal, and sure, they can do it. And what I always try to tell people when they're not willing to change on the show, I'm just like, okay, go do it. I don't care. Go do it. But I'm having the conversation of, oh, here's what you should do to actually get your finances in order. But a lot of people, they really. They had a Tired day of work. Oh. You know, maybe make it even more complicated with a little extra school. Make it even more complicated by having some kids and it says they deserve the sweet treat, all that stuff. And I want them to get the sweet treat. I want them to spend 30% of their money on their sweet treat once they're out of debt and have a fully funded emergency fund. But I, There's. I've picked up on a lot of that entitlement, thinking that it's more of a deserve than a let's just put in a little bit of sacrifice and then let's get all the sweet treats you want. So a lot. Yeah, lots of.

[Caleb Hammer]

Where does that come from?

[Graham Stephan]

Total guess.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

But just based on how I grew up and based on the culture and probably the consumerism culture, you know, we are. Median household income in the United States is. Or our GDP per capita is double in the United Kingdom. So it's like we have that extra money more typically than those other countries to just go blow it on things. We see the commercials, we got everything. It's in our culture. No, you get the McDonald's because you want the ice cream. You know, you get it. It's a nice day out. It's just the extra little things should have that yearly trip somewhere.

[Caleb Hammer]

You know what? Here's the thing. If there's one thing I can't stand, it's wasting money. And we've all done it. We've signed up for subscriptions or things we don't need, we forget about it, and then all of a sudden it starts charging you every single month and you're just wasting it without even realizing it. That is when I started sponsor Rocket Money. They allow me to see all my subscriptions in one place, cancel the ones I don't want to use anymore, and keep a lot more money back in my pocket at the end of every month.

[Jack]

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[Caleb Hammer]

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[Jack]

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[Caleb Hammer]

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[Jack]

Serious. I use Rocket Money. I love it. I recommend it to everybody. They save so much money. It's like a beautiful dashboard. They organize your finances. I couldn't recommend it more. Try it out with the link down below in the description. Rocket money.comiced. thank you so much to Rocket Money for sponsoring this episode. Back to the podcast. I feel really bad saying this. I genuinely do, but it's just my honest. It's my honest thoughts. So obviously, you know, when we have a guest on the show, we research them a lot. So I was watching a ton of your videos. I'd seen a lot in the past, but I'm just, like. I would say re. Re. Watching a lot of stuff. And I noticed I kept getting very honestly, kind of upset, like, a little bit angry, because a lot of the guests, like, I would not. It would be rare for me to feel sympathy for them. And I know this sounds awful to say because these are people in bad situations. They're struggling financially. They're not coming from a good spot. But it seems like, similar to what you said. It's like, oh, because this. Oh, because this. Because this, because this. And I'm thinking, like. Like, is there no sense of personal responsibility?

[Graham Stephan]

How far did you make it in the episodes? I'm curious.

[Jack]

I mean, your episodes are long now, like an hour and a half. So I probably watched six episodes all the way through.

[Graham Stephan]

All the way through. Did you see towards the end, though? I feel this doesn't happen for all of them, but a lot of them that I see these days, they really start with that because, again, they've never been pushed back on. Also, they've never been on camera. They're literally random people. You know, they're in the audience.

[Jack]

Typically, I do notice a small resolve at the end after being berated, you know, for, like, absolutely. Finances.

[Graham Stephan]

Well, it's because, second, they've never had it. They also just. We do story times and stuff and, you know, to get more context on their life. But once you start getting halfway through the document pile, it really starts to set on them how bad it is worse than they thought. It was. And you can see it after the show. And then we film the post show and that's an extra 20 minutes. And you can just see they're just like, oh, I can't believe how bad that was. I had no idea.

[Jack]

So would you find yourself being sympathetic towards the guests that you have sometimes on your show? Or what's the general. How do you feel about it?

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, well, definitely more sympathy towards the. The uncontrollables. We talked about uncontrollables.

[Jack]

Absolutely.

[Graham Stephan]

Lots of. Definitely sympathy towards them. And then, you know, usually we give them an extra helping hand. But sympathy of, I can't get chick fil a after work a little less. Usually when someone had. When people have kids and they have to cut back on, on. On, you know, special things for the kids just temporarily, that's definitely where I feel, you know, more of a heart on that. But when it's just a single person just trying to really grind it out for like a year, that's hard for me to actually, I have less sympathy when we get to the end, we make a budget and they have thousands left over. I'm like, this is just the dumb. There's no reason to be in this kind of debt. You could literally fix this in a few months. And we recorded like four of those in a row a few weeks ago. And I was just like, I had no sympathy at the end. It's like, dude, just fucking do this. This is the dumbest thing in the world that you're not doing.

[Caleb Hammer]

How long does it take to break through to people? And what do you have to do to get to that point?

[Graham Stephan]

I start to see it at about 45 minutes. 45 minutes into the episode.

[Caleb Hammer]

Anything you're doing in particular, or it's just like, you gotta like, keep like, chipping away, chipping away. And then 45 minutes and they break down.

[Graham Stephan]

That's. That seems to be the philosophy we, you know, you find the things to relate to them. I. I learn more things about their family, more things about their personal life, and you can start relating things to it and the consequences of their actions and who they might be affecting. If I learn they have a kid, you know, I demonstrate that older kid's gonna feel morally obligated to take care of them at some point if they don't actually get their. Together now, because I don't think any of us would let our parents literally become homeless, you know, if they don't have retirement. But we didn't choose to come to the world either. So it's like, why put that on your kids? So I find something to relate it to. And then, yeah, chipping away. And usually about 45 minutes in, we're most of the way through the documents and that's where the numbers really start to stack. So that is just. I think it's just all that becomes a little overwhelming. Good overwhelming, hopefully. And you start to see some emotion. And they even get quieter in that moment usually. And yeah, that's when they start to be more receptive to things.

[Caleb Hammer]

So what are the items that are keeping people poor the most that you notice?

[Graham Stephan]

Definitely car loans. Big car loans on the show. Some of our, you know, biggest moments are big trucks. Big American manly trucks or something. You know, they have their Ford F150.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

At a, you know, seven year, eight year loan, 25% so that they can pick up groceries.

[Caleb Hammer]

I saw a video and this is real. This guy got a Lamborghini Gallardo and he went through his expenses on like, here's how much it costs to buy a Lamborghini Gallardo. Great car, by the way. Like, fantastic for resale value. I believe he put almost no money down, but he got 140 month car loan on this.

[Jack]

12 years.

[Caleb Hammer]

It's about 12 years. And I was thinking like the average auto loan rate for a used car that's that old because these cars were built from like 2004 to like, I think it was like 2012, something like that, give or take. But for used cars over four years old, the interest rates have to be minimum 7%, like at the lowest. And I was doing like some backwards calculations to figure out like how much he's paying in interest over this 12 years. Like it makes no sense.

[Graham Stephan]

But I want to get that guy on the show.

[Caleb Hammer]

But he has the car. The thing is, he seemed like a really bright, smart guy.

[Graham Stephan]

Okay.

[Caleb Hammer]

That was the one thing that maybe he got somehow though, there's no way you're getting a. Not that I was better than 6% on a 12 month. It's impossible.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, that's crazy. Should get him on.

[Jack]

That would be interesting. I always wondered. It would be kind of cool. Rather than people that apply to go on the show, like you just go on the street and just like go up to someone working a McDonald's job or something like that and just approach them.

[Graham Stephan]

That's so hard.

[Jack]

Because that's a little bit more true.

[Graham Stephan]

True.

[Jack]

I feel like.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, well, I mean, that would be. I mean it is all true. But it's just, I don't know, because people get on Such a big. This is. It's the. There is a bit of a moral dilemma. We want to make sure that the people coming on, the amount of onboarding, they come on before coming on the show. But we couldn't do that with someone on the street, you know.

[Caleb Hammer]

Right. So. But it makes sense for you not going up to random people, just giving the audience size at this point.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

Where do you. Where do you draw the line between people who think that you exploit poor people versus offering true criticism and helping them with tough love?

[Graham Stephan]

With the amount of times that we have on phone calls with them, a onboarding video that's sent to them before they come on, an onboarding video they're forced to watch in the green room before they come on, the amount of stuff we say, hey, dude, you're about to get on in front of a bunch of people. Don't do this if you don't want to do it. We are. We won't be offended. Did. Don't do it. Tell us now. They get that chance like five times before they ever come on. And that's why we actually have a lot of people cancel right before, which is. Okay.

[Jack]

What we allow say cancels.

[Graham Stephan]

We put four on the calendar a week. I'd say one cancels, one to two.

[Caleb Hammer]

Okay.

[Graham Stephan]

A week. Yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

So how many people apply towards how many people actually get on the show?

[Graham Stephan]

Now we get a lot more applications because we're targeting our audience on Tick Tock and Meta.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

So but that's specifically targeted our audience still. And now we have a lot more applications. I don't know. We're getting like also 100 applications a day. I don't know.

[Caleb Hammer]

Wow.

[Graham Stephan]

I don't know. A lot of people want to come on. Yeah. I think a majority of it is kind of just jerking themselves off a little. So a lot of people want to come on. They want to talk about their multi million dollar portfolio or something. But it's a pretty limited selection. If we were like Lindsay could have pretty much anyone with that. Come on. But that would get. We already have kind of relatively repetitive show. It would get uber repetitive. We just let anyone and anyone and anyone on. So we want to make sure we at least get interesting stories and, you know, more diverse selections of what is happening.

[Caleb Hammer]

How do you know what to pick for to not become repetitive?

[Graham Stephan]

Well, that's why I heard hired Lindsay. She's. She's a beast. Her and Jake and eventually one our new junior producer as well. They just have so many conversations with them. So many conversations going through their life and just trying to understand them and you know see see where their headspace is at see what their opinions on things are and just making sure that it's not someone on coming on who just spends a McDonald's and that's their only thing you know so you know I put it in their hands and I trust them and they've been delivering.

[Caleb Hammer]

And how do you verify all the information that they say is accurate statements.

[Graham Stephan]

The financially it's in their statements and they send credit karma screenshots as well so that for sure life things it's a little hard to tell. We definitely get one side of this of the story and you know I've gotten in trouble a couple times for that where it's like you know someone will tell a big trauma dump or something which is very fair. Go ahead. And I'm like I, you know instinctively play devil's advocate. Well we're not here on the other side so I just want to be a little cautious. But then you know, it's almost like am I denying someone's experience? You know that's kind of what I heard a few times so I don't know it's a little difficult but we can't verify that stuff's true. 100 that's fair.

[Jack]

That gets dicey on the top of credit cards. Do you think the average person uses them appropriately or would you say for the most part it's just a bad the average person.

[Caleb Hammer]

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[Jack]

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[Graham Stephan]

Ooh, dude. I don't know the statistics around this, but. Well, I guess we know the median balance balances in the thousands, right? So I'm sure the average person.

[Caleb Hammer]

Oh, the, the average credit card debt right now I think is like $6,000. Like $6,600. The average person, average, yes.

[Jack]

So is that the average credit card debt? And then that's. You put that per. So you assign. Divide by 330 million or whatever.

[Caleb Hammer]

Well, not everyone has a credit card. The average person with a credit. The average person with a credit card has a balance of, I believe it was $6,600. I did a video similar to this about, like, the American debt savings rate is 3% right now for the average American, 3%. And if they're making $65,000 a year, they're saving like 2 grand a year and they have a credit card balance of 6, 600. There's no way to pay it off. You physically can't, you know, it just doesn't work.

[Jack]

Do you think then that it could be irresponsible to advocate for credit cards for something that generally is bad?

[Graham Stephan]

I don't know, man. That's kind of the same thing as just like, you know, know someone could get addicted to that coffee right there. This is, you know, I don't drink, but I don't care if people drink. Like, someone could get addicted to it. I don't know. That's why I always just say, use credit cards only if you're a credit card person. If you can demonstrate that you can budget and pay your bills correctly for at least a quarter, then maybe give yourself like an intro credit card. Right? You really got to do it safely. It's a tool. But just like any other tool in construction, dude, you can get your head caved in. So just got to be Safe. I don't like super advocate for credit cards. I wouldn't say either. I'm not like, I'm not even. Dude, if you looked at my wallet you'd be so bored as like a credit card person. Yeah, I'm like nothing. I got like just a couple credit cards that make sense a business credit. It's just like I'm not a super big advocate. I like them because I can utilize them and I like to finesse a little. But I'm not like, go get a credit card, go get a credit card, go get but credit scores. I know, I know our boy Dave isn't, he doesn't think credit scores are the biggest thing in the world. But, but you know, underwriting, you really gotta find like the right institution for that. It definitely becomes less convenient, especially for apartment hunting. So I mean, then again, maybe I am advocating for smart credit card usage and training from parents to kids so that they can build a good credit. So when they go to lease their own place without any roommates or co signers or whatever that they're able to get it.

[Caleb Hammer]

So you know what they're going to do at some point because I have a feeling that credit card usage and interest rates are going to, are going to be an issue over the next probably 10 years in terms of like Congress and senators. They're going to look into this. I have a feeling at some point they're going to mandate credit card companies require a test before you get the credit card and just basic, like is a 24% interest rate when you have a thousand dollar debt? What is that? You have to like select the dollar amount or like is your credit going to take a hit if you don't pay it off after 30 days? Like all these questions and if you answer like five questions correctly, like basic beginner level questions, then you get the credit card because they do that with stock trading. When you sign up for Robinhood options, you have to answer a few stupid basic questions that a monkey could answer. But they're questions at least it's Robinhood. Hey, we did our job. We did something. I think a credit card should do that if people are taking out loans. I remember the one she that you had on your show didn't understand what the credit card interest rate was and thought that was her limit. Or there was like a weird one like that, right? That probably just like didn't understand what it, what it was like the 20%. She's like, oh, I thought this is like how much I could spend a.

[Graham Stephan]

Lot of Them they think their 2% cash back is beating their 30 interest. So like yeah, for the average viewer.

[Jack]

Out there that's trying to improve their finances, what are some things that you would just generally recommend for for them to be in a better financial spot?

[Graham Stephan]

Just to start with just the basic budget, literally any budgeting app.

[Caleb Hammer]

App.

[Graham Stephan]

I have some preferences but literally in a budgeting app I have an extra preference towards simpler budget because you just got to do the simple things. That's what a lot of people fail on is a lot of people try to get the crazy spreadsheet, a lot of people try to get the, you know, download the. You need a budget and then it's like a trillion billion things. Literally just the basic start of setting up the budget. Understanding just what your even income is. People can't even answer the damn income question sometimes. And then just understanding what's going out. I, when they, it always blows their mind when I tell them how much they're spending versus how much is coming in. They have no idea. So literally just creating that simpler budget. That's why I made the simpler budget app for the basics. For people just getting started, want to change their life, take control from the first time. It's just that basic thing, dude. Starting with the budget from there, then it's just the foundations, right? What are the goals you're trying to hit? Got to get that emergency fund. Are we trying to pay off high interest debt? You know, what's our life situation looking like at that time? Do we need to make sure we have a little extra cushion before paying off that debt? Cuz we have kids. You go from there. But you got to start with the budget. People just don't know how much money's going in and out.

[Jack]

I remember back in college I did this where I created a mock budget for a fake family that lives. It's a, it was a husband and wife or boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever. Two. Two people. And they have a child and they were affording a car, gas. I allocated a budget towards rent, towards X. And I found an actual place, everything, even childcare. I got the average health care costs, I got food budget costs from the census, everything. And they were able to still save. It was like $5,000 a year, which is a pretty substantial amount. And that's not accounting for any growth in income, just working standard hours. And I remember I got in college when I did this presentation. So many people were like giving me backlash from this. But it's so weird. It's like am I then supposed to instead say oh, if this is your situation, you're screwed. There's nothing you can do.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, I know.

[Jack]

You know what I mean? It's like, okay, well if you do the right things, then good things will happen. But the only other thing, the thing that people want you to say is that, oh, there's nothing you can do. You're screwed.

[Graham Stephan]

I mean that's definitely easier. It's the put the head in the sand. It's easier to assume that everything's doomed and gloomed. Why work? Why make it? Why put in an effort? Why sacrifice Live uncomfortably for a second. I mean there are real situations to acknowledge of, you know, like I've had a few people that live in pretty shitty situations and like, I don't know if they can afford to get out of there. I think it's also important for people to. Who probably know their rights as tenants as well. I had someone, I think it was the person I was talking about earlier that. Where they were an orphan their entire life. They live in a place where like he literally can't stand in the shower because you fall through. Like you gotta know. You need to know your rights and just talk. You try to get connect. We actually, I think we sent them links to pro bono's people that would be interested in pro bono work, you know, in that space. So it's important for people to know their rights as well if they're, if they're, if they are getting full. Because people do get. There are situations that are just know your rights. There's laws in place for a reason. It's a lot of people just don't know.

[Caleb Hammer]

What do you think about cash stuffing and envelopes?

[Graham Stephan]

For some people, they need that little extra help. They, if it's digital, they can't track it. For me, I can't track it. If it's cash, I need the digital number. If a dollar goes down on my bank account, I'm like, But if a dollar goes out physically, I'm like, it doesn't exist. But yeah, some people like, if it's digital, they have no control. So envelope system's been recommended a few times on the show, quite a few times.

[Caleb Hammer]

But what do you say to the people who want to get a side hustle? How often is it actually worth it?

[Graham Stephan]

It's worth it when it's really worth it. When they don't have that wiggle room on the tightest budget. No Spotify with ad free. Even with all that, they only have a hundred dollars left on a monthly basis. And like mathematically it's going to take them, you know, 10 years to pay it off. Or they could go through bankruptcy and then it's on for seven to 10 years. You know, it's just like, okay, at that point, if they can l literally bring in an extra 500amonth, I could like, more than double their progress towards paying off that.

[Caleb Hammer]

What do you think is the best side hustle?

[Graham Stephan]

I mean, I just recommend people getting a job as quick as possible. I, I know during the pandemic there's some, you know, ubereats and Ubering was pretty good. It's not as good anymore. It's a little hard. It's kind of, isn't it? Like, kind of the. It's a low percentage that's actually making good money on it versus everyone else. Dude, I'm telling people there's a coffee shop up the street. I talked to the manager. I, I, you know, I see him often. He's like, dude, I need to hire people. We're hiring people at 18 bucks an hour. Please send your guests here. Please send them.

[Caleb Hammer]

And I'm like, that's pretty good for a coffee shop now.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, like, go, go brew some coffee. Go. I don't know. That's pretty good. And like, they're desperate to hire people. They'll work schedules out. I'll figure it out. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Try the place next door. Service is still backfilling in a lot of cities. Not as much as before.

[Caleb Hammer]

Interesting.

[Graham Stephan]

But they're still backfilling. I know tech's hard. You can't just go out and get a random, like, side gig as easily in tech or anything. But if you work a little service for a bit, that's not a huge issue.

[Jack]

Anything with tips. Yeah, Tips can bring in some really good money.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Actually, yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

Just ask a few questions and.

[Jack]

True. Flip this thing over real quick. Yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

How much do you tip if. If you go into a place like a Chipotle.

[Graham Stephan]

Chipotle.

[Caleb Hammer]

Where they make the food in front of you, but you're not sitting down and eating. What's the appropriate tip on that percentage?

[Graham Stephan]

Coffee shop, I always give a tip. Food delivery, always give a tip. Restaurant, I give a great tip. Yes, yes, yes. I give 30% at restaurants, but for like, whatever.

[Caleb Hammer]

Chipotle, the vast casual sort of dining experience. Because it's not an 18 percenter.

[Graham Stephan]

Because they make you tip at Chipotle.

[Jack]

The way I see it is, it's, it's dependent on multiple different variables. If they serve, they have good service, then I'm tipping. But also if they flip that screen over and the first button is 20%, that makes me upset.

[Caleb Hammer]

Is it ever 20? I always see 15.

[Jack]

No, no, no, no. A lot of the times they'll flip it over. And the top, the first thing, the lowest you can tip is 20%.

[Caleb Hammer]

And that will, like, there's always an other button, though.

[Jack]

Yes, you can. But I'm just saying, like when they provide you with three things because no one's. Very few people go to the custom tip usually do, you know, the three. 20, 25, 30 or 15. 20, 25. And if it starts out at 20, then that, for, for some reason, I don't know, I'm thinking to myself, like, that's what a lot of people tip at restaurants. And I would say there's a big delta between, you know, the service that's provided at a restaurant versus taking an order. And obviously it gets split with the chefs and stuff like that.

[Graham Stephan]

I mean, there's like kiosks and stuff. When I go to like a concert and I get like a little snack there and it's as I pick it up from a roller and then asking for a tip, I smart punch that no tip button.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

Because nothing was done there. I didn't see human. I didn't even see someone. So I don't even know what's happening. But yeah, I don't know.

[Caleb Hammer]

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[Jack]

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[Caleb Hammer]

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[Jack]

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[Jack]

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[Caleb Hammer]

So what are most people getting wrong about personal finance?

[Graham Stephan]

Probably the behavior part. A lot of people think this is out of control. You know, we kind of talked about it already. It's just like everyone just says, oh, they deserve or is this out of my control? So much is behavior. You see it in the numbers. Numbers. I mean, 900 spent on DoorDash in today's episode. Did you really need to DoorDash 900 in a month when you literally couldn't pay for a 400 collection? So that's impossible. I don't have an extra 400. Okay, you do. It's like it gets control. So much more behavior than people think.

[Caleb Hammer]

Do you ever have a problem relating to some people who are on their show who are in situations that you have not been in yet? Like, let's say a single mother with three kids. Is that hard for you to, like, help her given that you hadn't been in a situation like that yourself?

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, I think anything that I haven't been in, it's always going to be a little Harder. I try to relate it to people I know in my life, family members or friends who've been through certain things. You know, like I wasn't raised in a single family household, but I know people who have been and I've had conversations that I try to try to relate it in some kind of way and I try to at least listen and be empathetic. Even though I'm known for interrupting. I try. I think the, the biggest big, the big hard ones. I feel like I can relate to that pretty okay. The big hard ones. There's someone that again, if it's like I've never been in or known anyone that's been in like horribly abusive situation, I don't know how to relate to that. Never been in it. And I don't know people in it and if I do, I don't know it because they don't want to talk about it.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah, there's that heartbreaking Dave Ramsey call. I remember that, where someone was in an abusive situation and she called and Dave Ramsey like, do you need help? And she's like, yes.

[Graham Stephan]

Oh yes.

[Caleb Hammer]

And then he told her to we're going to call 911 for you. Like stay on the line. That was awful.

[Graham Stephan]

I can't relate to that. That's hard. That's really hard. But that's usually when we try to connect them with different resources and stuff as well.

[Jack]

What percentage of just the general what you've seen come on your show can be solved with some more financial literacy and discipline versus the stuff that realistically these people are going to need to file for bankruptcy and take extremely drastic measures to completely reset.

[Graham Stephan]

Vast majority. Vast majority. I'd say only 5% this year here that we've uploaded. Like it needs to be something extreme like bankruptcy is like the only option or you know, so 1 out of.

[Jack]

20 and, and the people that come on your show are probably a representation of some of the, the people that are lower on the scale of just general financial status.

[Graham Stephan]

Absolutely.

[Jack]

So it's, we're talking a very small percentage of people you would say are actually financially screwed.

[Graham Stephan]

Oh, well, I don't know about that. Again, when we go back to the what average American doesn't have a thousand can't afford a thousand dollar merchants or the 6,000 hour credit card balance. A lot of people are financially. A lot of people don't have even close to enough for retirement. Like a lot of people are financially as dire as what we have on the show for the average or the median American. No, we're Definitely on the lower half because, you know, we want it to be a challenge. We want it to be more interesting. You know, it's definitely. But it's. These are still the people you're working with are the people you're walking next to on the street. The street. There are people in your family talking about. Money's taboo in the country. So it's like you. We don't know until they come on here. So many people actually have come on the show to send us or we, we talk to them in a follow up and they're like, yeah, like my co workers knew I was coming on the show and stuff, but they were so surprised at how bad my finances were.

[Caleb Hammer]

It's just, we don't know now on their side. What's the most difficult part about being poor or broke.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, when you don't have an emergency fund, that's where things can get. I mean, what happens? You know, pet gets sick, you know, it gets scary.

[Caleb Hammer]

That's got to be the worst, honestly, for a pet. Yeah, it's expensive. I had to take Bailey in. She had a little limp. Apparently she had a sprain. It was almost a thousand dollars. A thousand dollars for medication for them to look at it and do an X ray.

[Graham Stephan]

I did 30,000 recently.

[Caleb Hammer]

Wow.

[Graham Stephan]

30,000. Multiple surgeries on my, on my great paranese.

[Caleb Hammer]

What happened?

[Graham Stephan]

She ate a toy. This small little piece of a ball.

[Jack]

Do you have insurance?

[Graham Stephan]

I do. Save me 20 because I think that was the cap. It was still 10, but it busted up her intestine so it exploded and then sepsis and stuff.

[Jack]

How is the, how's the dog?

[Graham Stephan]

Oh, she's great. She's great now. She's great now.

[Caleb Hammer]

But it was a thirty thousand dollar surgery.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, it was so hard to catch because usually they, they were telling me like that blockage and stuff, it's like they can't keep down any food. They can't, you know, this is diarrhea and vomit. But she wasn't really showing that many symptoms.

[Caleb Hammer]

How did you know?

[Graham Stephan]

It's because she like show symptoms and then she'd be fine for a few days and then symptoms and then fine for your days. And I was like, okay, well that's it. I sent in, sent in, they sent her home saying nothing was wrong after X rays. Then a week later after symptoms like kept popping up, I'm like, okay, something's happening. She was acting slow and I brought her over and that's when they realized it split open. And how they realize that?

[Jack]

Did they get a Different scan or something?

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, they went with ultrasound.

[Jack]

Oh, okay.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

Why do might think that this was the second time this had happened?

[Graham Stephan]

Yes, because it is. Because that's why she has to. She looks like a big scary dog every time she goes outside alone now because she wears a. What's it called? Muzzle. But it's not because she bites, it's because she eats.

[Caleb Hammer]

So why?

[Graham Stephan]

I don't know, dude. She's obsessed. She's obsessed. Apparently I was talking to one of the vets there and her Great Pyrenees does the same. So she just, she's.

[Caleb Hammer]

Is that, is that a breed thing to like see something and just want to eat it?

[Graham Stephan]

My other dog doesn't. My other dog chews sticks but spits them out. You know he chews on bones and stuff. I spits it out. But I don't know man, she's crazy. So I'm telling people. It feels so mean. It feels so mean. But I've started to come to the mindset where like if you cannot afford pet insurance, you cannot afford a pet. Cuz if you can't afford to pay for a life saving event or even if you can't pay, afford to pay to take them in and have them throw up. You know how they can do that? Little medication if they eat something. If you can't afford to pay that, you can't afford a pet, you can't.

[Jack]

Because you think a pet is a privilege.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. They're your responsibility. You're taking, you're taking on that contract, you know that moral contract.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah. There was someone I knew who had had a pet, didn't have pet insurance or it was something where the pet wouldn't be covered. The pet had an issue and there was like a 50, 50 chance of survival. But it was going to be like a $20,000 surgery. Yeah, 50, 50 chance.

[Graham Stephan]

That's what mine was.

[Caleb Hammer]

Didn't have any money. Took out a loan. Took out one of those because they offer the payday services or whatever it is. Took out the loan, did the surgery. Pet didn't make it. Didn't make it. It was the 50% a no. So now not only have you lost your pet, but you're $20,000 in debt on a payment plan for a pet that didn't make it. Yeah, it just, that's gotta suck because it's not like you want to say, oh, 50, 50, well okay, let's save the money. You never want to just like save the money for a pet. Probably even if there's like a 20 chance of survival. You probably want to take it.

[Graham Stephan]

Oh, yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

Gosh, that's got to be. That's got to be sad. It's harder for a pet than it. I hate to say it. It's something. It's harder for a pet than a. Than a person because the pet really is, like, entirely dependent on you. Unless it's like, a kid instead of a child. Yeah, a child would be, you know, but when something depends on you and it's like you're the one responsible for it.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, I used to. One of the. I don't really, you know, get on, like, Reddit or anything anymore, but one thing I used to see back in the. People just kept saying, oh, Caleb yells at people for taking out credit cards to save their dog's life at the thing. And I've, like, don't think I've ever yelled at that. I yell at the fact that they take out the credit card to, you know, do the vet bill, but then they go and blow a ton of money on fast food instead of paying off the credit card. It's like, I never understood that criticism. I've never yelled at them. Saving their pets life, mealing with them, not paying off the card. Do it. If you don't have an emergency fund, do it. I would do it, but pay it off. Sacrifice for a bit and pay it off after you do it.

[Caleb Hammer]

How much is pet insurance?

[Graham Stephan]

It. It depends on, you know, the breed and age and stuff. Both of my pups are like, I think, like 35, 40amonth.

[Jack]

It's not bad at all.

[Caleb Hammer]

That's not bad.

[Graham Stephan]

Well, I got them young and healthy.

[Jack]

Oh, God.

[Graham Stephan]

Before she started going crazy with her.

[Caleb Hammer]

Do you think that's a good thing? Should I do that?

[Graham Stephan]

That I would.

[Caleb Hammer]

Really, I would.

[Graham Stephan]

You're going to. You're not going to let a pet die. You're not going to let a pet die, but you're not going to want to spend $30,000 either, so do it. I don't know.

[Caleb Hammer]

It be 30 grand. I don't know. Yeah, she. She got quoted a while ago for a potential, like a. Like a elective surgery that, like, hey, she might need this at some point. It was like five grand. And I was like, I don't know about that. She's fine.

[Graham Stephan]

Who?

[Caleb Hammer]

What?

[Graham Stephan]

Who? Which one?

[Caleb Hammer]

Bailey.

[Graham Stephan]

Oh, okay.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah, it was like a. Apparently these dogs are sometimes born without, like, sounds so weird. A kneecap. And, like, her kneecap isn't fully developed on one leg. It's not an issue. But it might be an issue. And so it's like, do you want to do this? Have the surgery now for something that might not be an issue or not do it? And it might be an issue in the future, but it might not be. And I was like, well, if it becomes an issue, then we could address it.

[Graham Stephan]

You have the pen insurance. I think because of that, it might be a little more expensive, depending. And I think Bailey's what, five?

[Caleb Hammer]

Four.

[Graham Stephan]

Four. Okay. So, yeah, it gets more expensive the older they get. I'd get it young. Get it young. You just got a cat, right?

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah. Yes, actually, I got a kitten, too.

[Graham Stephan]

You're double catting?

[Caleb Hammer]

I'm double cat.

[Graham Stephan]

So now you're a triple cat. He's got it, right?

[Caleb Hammer]

No, double.

[Graham Stephan]

I was talking about the can.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah, that's Ramsey. Gigi is the new cat. And then Bailey. Yes, Gigi's very cute. Yeah, she's fish.

[Graham Stephan]

She is.

[Caleb Hammer]

Oh, yeah, the fish. Ton of fish.

[Graham Stephan]

Oh, yeah. I don't think you pet insurance on fish. No, I don't even know if that's an option.

[Jack]

That'd be pretty funny. That'd be interesting.

[Graham Stephan]

Tank insurance, new business idea.

[Caleb Hammer]

Gosh, that would be. That would be great. You know, if your coral dies, we'll pay you for it.

[Graham Stephan]

I'm going to ruin your retention right now for a quick second. So you can cut this if you want, but I was dating. Oh, no, no, no. I was going on multiple dates with someone, and she had a nice coral tank. This is beautiful. Lots of fish. Coral. Then the big Texas freeze four years ago happened. It all died. Everything died.

[Caleb Hammer]

That's my nightmare. If. So if a tank goes without electricity for like eight hours, pretty much everything dies. And it depends on the. Really. Yeah, it depends on the temperature, too, because. Because the oxygen and the water. So the first thing. So the temperature can drop. That's okay. Up to like, you know, low 70s. And things can survive from that. It's actually a lot better than that. The. The temperature goes down, then go up. The temperature goes up too much, everything will die. Goes down a little bit more wiggle room there. But basically the fish just fixate. There's just no oxygen in the water, no running water, and they'll just suffocate to death.

[Graham Stephan]

Room got 40° for a week. Nothing. Nothing could be done.

[Caleb Hammer]

Got to get a generator. Yes, I ended up getting a generator for the tank.

[Graham Stephan]

Smart.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah, they were. They were actually a sponsor video. And I used it. I plumbed it directly into the outlet, the breaker for the aquarium.

[Graham Stephan]

That's so cool. That's so cool.

[Caleb Hammer]

So now it just takes over. It's electric, works great.

[Graham Stephan]

Tank insurance. It's the new insurance worth it.

[Jack]

What was it like for you? What were the statements like when you were in the worst financial situation you've ever been in?

[Graham Stephan]

I wouldn't look at them. I don't know. But I do know this. When I was really bad early college, you know, I wanted my daily McD's. That was my daily dinner, and I could physically afford it because I was also active. What I would do is just find a way just to make the payment necessary on a credit card. So I had enough at the credit card before it hit to the limit to go to McDonald's and get that meal for that day. Because how could I cook? I couldn't cook. I needed my attendees.

[Caleb Hammer]

What was the. What was the meal? What would you get?

[Graham Stephan]

Chicken tendies back when they did it. Tendies, fries, and probably a shake. Wow.

[Caleb Hammer]

It's the shake. The shakes are the real, like, calories.

[Graham Stephan]

Back then, though, it didn't mean anything because I was active walking around campus and stuff.

[Caleb Hammer]

Are you just less active now? Oh, yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

I mean, just here, you know, at the studio, I'm going back and forth between the three units, but, like, yeah, a lot less active now.

[Jack]

Are you motivated at all to try to get in better shape?

[Graham Stephan]

To a certain point. I mean, it's the motivation that I tell a lot of people on the show as well. It's like, yeah, yes, I'd like to get thin or be more fit, but obviously my behavior is suggesting I prefer going and getting that meal or whatever, being lazier and not working out a bit more, like, mentally. Yeah, I'd like to. I want to get there, of course.

[Caleb Hammer]

But it's. It's surprising to me that you're very dedicated when it come to business, money, finances, like, all of that. It's like you're like a 10 out of 10. Like, like perfect on that. Very discipline. When it comes to health, there's less of a focus on, like, wanting to dial it in.

[Graham Stephan]

I think it's consequences. I always have a wakeup call. I had a financial wakeup call one day. Just, you know, everything was. And I realized how it was. I. I joke with my friends, like, I'm like, I need to have a heart attack real quick. Just someone ordered me a heart attack real quick. Just give me, you know, if I have that, then I'm like, oh, so how to get. It's like, you know, I don't have. I don't have any harder Time going on dates or anything. I don't have any. There's been no.

[Jack]

There no consequences.

[Graham Stephan]

There's been no negative.

[Caleb Hammer]

You're not at a point where you're going to have a wakeup call. I mean, like, you could be your entire life like you are right now and be totally fine. It's. I feel like there's a bit of a health aspect of like, you know, be healthier. You might have more energy. You might.

[Graham Stephan]

Yes.

[Caleb Hammer]

You know, look in the mirror and be like. Yeah, but there's not going to be like a, you know, someone who's like, e. I just don't think.

[Graham Stephan]

Exactly. And that's why I'm not going to make an excuse. I mean, there's no excuse. The fact is, for those other things that I'm so disciplined in, as if I get less discipline on the business, I see that in next month, months, you know, numbers. When I sit down with my number two, Robert, and we're just, we're looking over numbers, I see the immediate impact. Right.

[Jack]

No scale.

[Graham Stephan]

What if I want to, I want to. But obviously my behavior is showing that I want something.

[Caleb Hammer]

I think the hardest part is starting it is. That's all it is. I think if you gave it 30 days, like you challenged yourself from January 1st to 31st, 30 days hiring a dietitian, meal preps and a personal trainer three times a week.

[Jack]

You don't even need a personal trainer. You could just go on a caloric deficit.

[Graham Stephan]

Honestly, I'm moving to a walkable community and every time I am living. Before I moved to this house, I lived in a walkable community and I was, you know, I was 30 pounds lighter. I went on walks every day with the dogs. Now that I live in some just. I love my house, but I just live in a suburban neighborhood. No street lights, no, no sidewalks. It's dark when we get out of work in the winter because people refuse to keep permanent daylight savings time. And it's just, I don't go on walks or anything anymore.

[Caleb Hammer]

I would like to see you get in really good shape this year because we've, we've almost done. We've almost done like an audit. A year between you and I going on and I'll find something we could fine tune a little bit. I think the first year was getting you off the franchise. We did that.

[Graham Stephan]

That restaurant, man, it is as successful as ever, though.

[Caleb Hammer]

That's okay. But look at you. I think you made a better decision. I think you are the winner here. But I will say there's Something beyond money that like I've noticed a lot of like really wealthy people are now gravitating towards like getting really fit in shape because that's something you can't really buy. Like you got to think of all the billionaires now are all doing the thing where they're all getting like jacked with six packs. It's the one thing that like they are, it's, yeah, it's now becoming the ultimate flex to be like in your 40s and 50s, but chiseled.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Caleb Hammer]

And I, I think, I think that could be next for you because, because you've definitely done well in business as we're about to get to in a little bit. So keep watching and like, and subscribe if you haven't done that already. Mean the world to us. But I think now that you.

[Graham Stephan]

A million subscribers. Yeah, that was fun.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah, we don't think about that. But, but now that you've done well in all these aspects, I think the next thing for you would be fitness. Just dialing it in and you might command a little more authority with guests being like hey, that might be bad.

[Jack]

Yeah, I don't know if that's a good thing. Like having a jacked rich guy like chad. Yeah. Like 12 employees like yelling at you. I feel like that's a different, different.

[Graham Stephan]

You know, honestly, I mean I can tell you guys I, I have not talked about this on the show. I, I do hear that, I really do. And I know that's something that at some point really does need to be taken advantage of. One thing that is just like awakened in me this year that I almost feel like I'm falling behind in life. I, I want wife, I want kids. Like I've never felt that in my life before. I've always joked about it on this show. 29. I've always joked about it on the show but for some reason something this year I, I've like felt like I'm like, like failing.

[Jack]

You're having a lot of couples on the show. Do you think have anything to do with it?

[Caleb Hammer]

Dude, imagine this. Like the subliminal messaging is coming out as Caleb's guests come on the show.

[Graham Stephan]

Be couples. No, it doesn't, doesn't that, that's been really weird.

[Jack]

Is it cuz the financial success?

[Graham Stephan]

I, I, I, I don't know either. I do have financial success, have business success. I have no one to share with. I don't go to home any to home home to anyone. I don't know like I feel like I'd like To pass it along. I don't know. Dating, Dating's always been easy and fun and I love going on dates and I go on a lot of dates and I don't know, but there's that. I feel like there's just, that's a big missing chunk and I. My family was in town this last weekend and I got the most thoughtful, amazing gift from my mom of a photo album. I've never had one before and it showed my entire life, life. And I saw my parents with like 7 year old me. No 10 year old me. And they're my age now. The age I am right now had a 10 year old me and I'm like, what the am I doing?

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah, but you wouldn't have been able to do all this with a seven. Yeah, that would have been an uphill battle. It could also be part of the holidays. You know, a lot of people feel like around the holidays I've been feeling January 1st.

[Graham Stephan]

It's been built, building up this year more than ever before. Like I've, you know, felt like, oh, it'd be nice to have a girlfriend before, you know, and we've joked about that and stuff. I've never felt the way, I feel this way, man.

[Caleb Hammer]

I'd give it five years. Like you want, you want to make sure the person that you, that you end up finding, like you give it a few years with them and like a few years just YouTube because once you have a kid, it's like you, that you can never undo that, you know, there's always going to be a kid no matter what. Like your life will change forever, ever because of that. Like there's no going back. And so like, I think it's better to live it up now with someone else.

[Graham Stephan]

I'm curious, you, are you a single little guy?

[Jack]

Yeah, I'm a single little guy and I'm feeling a little bit of the pressure too. I just turned 26 and I'm definitely like once I, once I hit that age too, I'm like, okay, like I'm past, you know, the first quarter of a century. Yeah, I feel like I should probably get on it. But I'm curious for you, what were you looking for previously? Just to go on casual dates and have fun or whatever.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, I just, I enjoyed casual dates and I'd be okay if a relationship happens here and there, there just. I never really took it like super seriously.

[Jack]

What's preventing you from getting into a relationship now then?

[Graham Stephan]

I guess nothing's preventing. Really busy with this job because this job doesn't just exist here, you know, it exists when I go home. I'm also beat afterwards because we do so much more than just filming the show, you know, now it's, it's a full fledged business and, and also just I love spending time with the friends as well. And I don't know, it's, it's a busy life and is that really what.

[Jack]

It is is being busy?

[Graham Stephan]

I think so. I mean I go on the dating apps, I try to ask some people out in person as well, which is risky. But yeah, dude, I would give it.

[Caleb Hammer]

Five years unsolicited Graham advice. Just head down, buckle down. Five years. 34.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, you told me a few months ago to just like not even go on, on dates anymore.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah, I think I said that.

[Graham Stephan]

You said it was just like too risky now.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah, I think for everything that you're.

[Graham Stephan]

Building makes me extra nervous.

[Caleb Hammer]

But I also think any distraction is a bad thing from taking your eye off.

[Graham Stephan]

What's the point of this? Right? What is the point of this?

[Caleb Hammer]

I don't, I think it's a short term sacrifice. Five years. Five. We're not talking about a 30 year career.

[Jack]

I'm just saying just to give him a little bit of credit.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah.

[Jack]

It, you're, you have a certain goal. Goal and, and future idea of what you want your life to look like. And maybe Caleb, and maybe Caleb has a completely different dream life down the road that, that. So your advice to him in terms of what you personally would do may not be, you know, I see. Sympathetic towards whatever Caleb.

[Caleb Hammer]

I see the spot that Caleb is in right now. I could relate closely to it. And I think five years, I think you set yourself up for a lot of longevity.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

For five years. And an industry that changes very quickly where anything happens. I think five years solidifies yourself as like, you know, a Paramount person in this space in such a way where you're gonna slowly over time remove yourself from the business. Like it's not going to be Caleb Hammer show indefinitely. It's going to evolve that I think it's going to evolve. You're slowly going to remove yourself and be more of an operator and investor and all these other things, a business owner. And then I think that's the appropriate time. And hey, if someone comes along, I'd be receptive to it. But I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to like go out there and you know, unless you enjoy it, unless it's like something you love.

[Graham Stephan]

I love going on dates.

[Caleb Hammer]

Then keep doing that.

[Graham Stephan]

I Like going on dates.

[Caleb Hammer]

Keep doing that.

[Graham Stephan]

I'll give you two things. One, just saw my parents, right. I want my kids to be able to grow up with active young grandparents. You know, I want them to be able to experience grandparents. But.

[Caleb Hammer]

But.

[Graham Stephan]

And two, you know, especially more these days, you tend to date more like, you know, one, two, three years in your range. It's not the 1950s anymore. If I'm. If I'm 35, dating my range, talking about the biological clock. If we're just being purely realistic. I know modern medicine's great, but there is that. It's what a lot of people fear. I don't have the biological clock, but a lot of people I talk to fear that. And If I'm waiting five years, and if I'm 35 and I'm married to someone else's, say, the Young end of 32, you know, that's probably like ticking.

[Caleb Hammer]

Say, don't date someone who's 27.

[Graham Stephan]

That's probably ticking in their brain. Well, Twitter would be up in arms. Like, I don't think they would.

[Caleb Hammer]

I don't think anyone. I don't. I don't think anyone cares.

[Graham Stephan]

I don't think any real people care.

[Caleb Hammer]

No.

[Graham Stephan]

No, real people don't care. Terminally online rage bait. Absolutely. But, yeah, I don't know. It's just. I don't know. It's something that's been weighing on me a lot this year.

[Jack]

But before we get into that, let's talk about rent for a second. Isn't it crazy that it's probably your biggest expense and yet you get nothing in return? Well, all of changes with Bilt Rewards.

[Caleb Hammer]

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[Jack]

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[Caleb Hammer]

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[Jack]

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[Caleb Hammer]

It's 2025 and you're probably asking yourself, how do you make this year different? How do you finally build something for yourself? May, you've got that business idea you've been tossing around, but you have no idea where to get started. I get it. It could be very confusing. Thankfully, though, that is where our sponsor, Shopify is there to help.

[Jack]

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[Caleb Hammer]

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[Jack]

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[Caleb Hammer]

Shopify.Comich thank you again, Shopify, for sponsoring this episode. And now let's get back to the podcast.

[Jack]

So what is it that you want out of life? Like your dream? Perfect. Like, how's this all look?

[Graham Stephan]

Dream house, wife, two to three kids, two dogs, two cats, two cows. That'd be cool.

[Jack]

How?

[Graham Stephan]

Walkable community.

[Jack]

Like, how are you affording this? Where's the money coming from?

[Graham Stephan]

I could retire right now. I. I could retire and live a good, happy upper middle class life.

[Jack]

So, technically speaking, the only thing that you can now optimize for if you want to achieve that exact dream that you just stated was you need to find a wife and two cows. Yes.

[Graham Stephan]

And two dogs. I have two dogs.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

Yes. Yeah. I mean, I guess I could do the ultimate stretch goals. Build the business. I like building the business. Building the business is fine. I'm competitive with myself, right? So I like building the business. That's another part of life. So that would be another thing that I like to see. It's not about the collection of all the wealth. It's like I just love this and I love, I mean you met so many employees today. You know, it's cool, it's fun.

[Caleb Hammer]

I love, I'd come here just to hang out, honestly, just to chill.

[Jack]

You have a very good work environment.

[Graham Stephan]

Well, thank you. I can't wait for you guys.

[Caleb Hammer]

It's fun, it's light hearted. I like it. In terms of your work, your perfect schedule, how often would you be at the office?

[Graham Stephan]

9 to 5, Monday through Friday. And I do love the work. It is fun.

[Caleb Hammer]

How much would the house be?

[Graham Stephan]

How much money? Yeah, the house I'm getting right now I think is my perfect house.

[Caleb Hammer]

Really.

[Graham Stephan]

It's in a walkable community and I value that more. I didn't realize how much. I value that more than almost anything. I want to be able to walk to the pub, I want to walk to the grocery store. I want to walk to everything. But it's also quiet, it's safe. This is cute. Great parks.

[Caleb Hammer]

How much money would you need to support your lifestyle, your kids, your wife, Would she be working?

[Graham Stephan]

Would dream, dream, dream. She could do whatever she wants but dream, dream, dream. I mean I, I, I'm pretty close. I think I, I, I'd be able to pull off 300 a year now. Pretty close.

[Caleb Hammer]

You think that's how much it would cost?

[Graham Stephan]

Oh no, no, no, no. I, we would be inc beyond comfortable with that. I could do less.

[Caleb Hammer]

I could do with three kids.

[Graham Stephan]

I, well I guess I haven't met the nice house. I haven't mapped the kids yet. I guess I haven't met the kids.

[Caleb Hammer]

$30,000 a year per kid. What is that the PBD was telling me? A hundred thousand dollars a year per kid.

[Jack]

That's PD's kids.

[Caleb Hammer]

I understand but, but okay, so if we're talking elite private school after school activities. Well, I want, I'm okay with public school.

[Graham Stephan]

I don't need to go, hey, I.

[Jack]

Didn'T mind public school.

[Graham Stephan]

You're going to state college. Like it's like I don't know, $30,000.

[Caleb Hammer]

A year were a kid.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, I don't want them to grow up like uber like privileged or anything either. Like spoiled and I grew up with spoiled and I grew up with like a billionaire kid and millionaire kids who were also super chill cuz they weren't spoiled. You know I wouldn't want all that. I don't know, I don't know. That's not my vibe.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah. So you think 300? 300 grand?

[Graham Stephan]

Sure. It's hard for me to picture I have. Because that's not a realistic thing right now.

[Caleb Hammer]

I'm not $400,000 a year.

[Graham Stephan]

I'm not popping.

[Caleb Hammer]

Just say it's before tax. 400.

[Graham Stephan]

It's hard for me to math it out. That's more of a security thing. Less of a I want, I want, I want. It's more of a security thing because my life still. I think we talked about this last time. My life has not really changed since going on here. We're able to go to nicer restaurants, you know, as the friend group. But I hang out with the exact same friends before as I did afterwards. Bought a Tesla. That was exciting. I don't know, it's like, I don't know. I guess that number is more of a security anything. I don't have the I want, I want, I want, I want.

[Caleb Hammer]

That's fair.

[Graham Stephan]

Cuz I don't, I don't travel. You know, what do people do?

[Caleb Hammer]

They travel and they get on planes.

[Graham Stephan]

There you go.

[Caleb Hammer]

How has your progress been? Because you remember, that was a sticking point. You have a fear of flying.

[Graham Stephan]

Nope.

[Caleb Hammer]

It's not a fear of flying. What was it?

[Graham Stephan]

It was the anxiety of being not having control. Yeah. Yeah. The most extreme version of that anxiety is people are afraid to leave their house. I have the light version, right? I have the light version, essentially. Yeah. So I have like a version of that probably. I mean, that's at least what therapists have said. So it's like the light version, you know.

[Caleb Hammer]

Are you doing anything to work on that?

[Graham Stephan]

Honestly, since we've talked about it, everything's just been so. There's only been one thing that I was like, ah, that would have been cool. But other than that, I've been just grinding and happy. Be cool to go back. Fly back to Michigan maybe. I hate the snow. Family would be cool though. But they just came down, so I don't know, it hasn't been, it hasn't been a big goal this year, you know? You know, I thought it would be, but it wasn't, you know, it would.

[Caleb Hammer]

Change your life, honestly. You get in shape for a year, like you get jacked. And when, when you finally reach a milestone, like whether that be on the scale or like lifting a certain amount or something like that, you get on an airplane, okay. And you go back and visit your family, I swear, man, that that will change the entire trajectory of your life if you could accomplish those two things and make it your goal to get on the plane when you hit the goal.

[Graham Stephan]

Or what? Become best friends with Dave Ramsey and use one of those PJs. That's it.

[Caleb Hammer]

That's the easy way out. But you know what if it gets. If it gets you on a plane?

[Graham Stephan]

Actually, one thing we thought about doing for our paid member, our paid membership on our YouTube memberships, is a vlog of us just renting a plane to fly up for like an hour and circle around Austin just to get on the plane, you know, but it would. It wouldn't be like the full cost because this is circling, but it would. It would show that, oh, I can be on the plane. I can be.

[Caleb Hammer]

Okay, you know what you could do? That would be hilarious. Instead of getting their private jet, you booking every single seat on the airplane. So it's just you.

[Jack]

That would.

[Graham Stephan]

How much would that cost?

[Caleb Hammer]

I don't know.

[Jack]

Sorry. It'd be more than a private jet. Probably more.

[Caleb Hammer]

But I think it would be hilarious just to be you on the airplane.

[Graham Stephan]

That's it.

[Caleb Hammer]

The whole thing is just you.

[Graham Stephan]

We'd have to make it content. That'd be funny.

[Caleb Hammer]

You know what, I'm surprised, honestly. Someone like Mr. Beast wouldn't do that for a short.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

Buying every seat on an airplane, it.

[Jack]

Would be logistically challenging. Like, how are you going to find a flight that has no seats booked already? And then you just book way in advance. Like you probably as soon as it comes out. And like, yeah, that's possible. Okay.

[Graham Stephan]

Or just leave one seat open and I want just a random.

[Caleb Hammer]

Put that person next to you.

[Jack]

Yeah, that would be funny.

[Graham Stephan]

Funny.

[Jack]

Okay, I'm curious. In terms of dating, you said that you would go up to people and just cold approach people. You're still doing that every once in a while.

[Graham Stephan]

I'm not like a go to bar kind of person. You know, when I hang out with my friends, we either, like, at each other's place or like at a restaurant. Restaurant. But every once in a while, you know, dog park, something like that.

[Jack]

Tell me, how does that typically go for you?

[Graham Stephan]

I have a mini panic attack. And then I'm like, okay, let's go. And then I go. And then I don't remember anything as I'm spurting out nonsense as I try to ask for a number, and then I walk away.

[Jack]

And how. What's your success?

[Graham Stephan]

Oh, has to be like 5%, but serious.

[Jack]

5%?

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Jack]

So you go up 20 women and then. Then one of them will say yes and Give it to.

[Graham Stephan]

That feels about right. That feels about right.

[Jack]

And do you. Do you usually ask for a phone number at the end of it?

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. Or Instagram or something? Yeah.

[Jack]

And one in 20 will give it to you.

[Graham Stephan]

Maybe that's. I'm hard guessing.

[Jack]

What do you think is causing that? Seems slightly low. I feel like, I feel like 30%.

[Graham Stephan]

It's a little awkward. I know. I. I'm a bumbling, awkward dude when I'm in that situation. And I'm bad at the, you know, I feel like the success rate would probably go from 5% to 15%. And that's just pure guess on both ends. But like, if I did the whole conversation for five to 10 minutes and close off with, okay, I'm gonna go. Yeah, you want to look soon? And it's like, that would probably be better, but I just kind of go up and I'm like, you're cute.

[Jack]

That's what you said. So you started off with a compliment or something.

[Caleb Hammer]

I got recommended this video. I loved it. This guy just started a brand new YouTube channel. His first video got like 600,000 views and it was him approaching 101 women to try to get a phone number. And it's just him with one of those like, you know, sunglass, you know, like, like what you have. Just him going and asking, hey, I think you're. You're cute. Can I get your phone number? No, no, no, no. I think he got like one out of a hundred. And all the comments were like, yo, you're doing this wrong. You should just like start small talk this and that. And they gave him critiques and he went out and did it again and he ended up getting like, almost like one in four more saying, yes, you're getting a number. It was, I think it was to agree to go on an instant date with him. But the secret was like just general small talk first without any objective was just like chit chatting. And it seemed very natural. And like, obviously you could tell he was awkward in the beginning, but you see his progress through like 1 through 20 and by 20 in and he's doing this all in a day. Like he's kind of warmed up, doing well at just getting like instant dates. That's getting instant numbers.

[Graham Stephan]

It's a lot of work. Yeah, you got to work on it and just really practice it.

[Jack]

Do you notice yourself getting better the more you do it?

[Graham Stephan]

Well, the thing is, they're just so far in between is this is. It's kind of like a restart every time I had a Success. Two days ago where I left a number for a waitress. Most beautiful person I've ever. Literally most beautiful person I've ever seen. Never seen anyone more beautiful. Left my phone number. She didn't text me, but her cute friend texted me.

[Jack]

How did that work out?

[Graham Stephan]

She just gave it to her friend. She's like, so she's married, so she makes sense. And she was like, ah, here's this guy, he's cute. And she text me and she's. She's really cute too.

[Caleb Hammer]

You know what I would do if. If you're doing this, at least make content out of it. Like for members or something like this. No, no. Really? Film it.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. Okay.

[Jack]

That would be amazing to watch. I would love to watch.

[Graham Stephan]

Well, if you want to apply to be my wife and childbear, go to caleb hammer.com only. Only fans. That's where. That's where it all is.

[Jack]

Is it actually a.

[Caleb Hammer]

You know what?

[Graham Stephan]

We should make a. We'll should make a link like going.

[Jack]

To like, Google forms.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

Would you ever have a form where people can submit to go on a date with you?

[Graham Stephan]

No. Unless it was for a show. Unless it was for a show. It'd have to be for a show.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah, sure.

[Graham Stephan]

Because then you just get parasocial. I have a feeling, you know, it would just be like, yeah, fan, fan, fan. It's just like, don't put.

[Caleb Hammer]

Put it on the show. Like, do what Jubilee does where you have like a sheet in between you, but where you have a sheet in between you and you're just talking to people, you can't see them and just like, have them answer questions. And then you pick the one that you like the most out of the top 20. And then you. You go on a date with them and maybe on the date you discuss credit scores and like savings goals and just things like this. And it's a fantastic show.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. The girl that you picked on your blind date on your around, I ended up talking to her just on accident.

[Jack]

Oh, really?

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Huh.

[Graham Stephan]

But long distance, so it didn't work.

[Jack]

Do you tend to get more nervous? This is once again a bad sounding question, but the more pretty.

[Graham Stephan]

Give it to me.

[Jack]

The girl is. Does. Does it tend to make you more apprehensive to go in and talk to her?

[Graham Stephan]

Probably. I'm not nervous on dates, but I'm definitely nervous asking people out.

[Jack]

Yeah, that's definitely the. The scary part.

[Graham Stephan]

I think I'm nervous either way because I'm. I'm obviously attracted to them. If I'm asking them Out.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

Oh, I'm like.

[Jack]

And have you ever cold. Approached someone and then they recognized you?

[Graham Stephan]

Ooh, I think once. I think I buried that down deep. Yeah. I was like, yeah, but I love your show. Or I have a boyfriend. But I love your show. One of those.

[Caleb Hammer]

It would be even worse if Be like, my boyfriend loves your show.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. I almost. I almost asked someone out. Who? I almost asked for someone's Instagram who came up to me the other day and started talking. Talking. But she was with someone, and I just couldn't do it because it could have been a brother.

[Caleb Hammer]

Here's what you asked all you. I mean, I'll tell you the way to get around that. How do you guys know each other? Instant. Oh, there's my boyfriend. Oh, cool. How long have you been together? Two years. That's awesome. Hey, that. You know, do you live nearby? Like, and then you just spin it off.

[Graham Stephan]

All right.

[Caleb Hammer]

But anytime. It's what?

[Jack]

You know, go ahead.

[Caleb Hammer]

I'm. Anytime. They're like, this is my friend. Friend. Now all you need to do is. No, now pay attention to the friend and, like, make him feel like he's a part of the conversation and ignore her. I think it's a polite thing to.

[Graham Stephan]

Do to ignore her. No, no, no, no.

[Jack]

I involve everyone in the conversation.

[Caleb Hammer]

Oh, yeah, go ahead. No, but you chitchat. You chit chat with the guy for a little bit.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

You know, because you don't want to make it seem like, all right, I'm gonna block you out. All right, good.

[Graham Stephan]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

I'm always awkward in those encounters anyway. When anyone comes up to me, like, I just never really know what to say. I'm just. Oh, thanks for watching Fist Bump.

[Jack]

So if you came up to Caleb a couple days ago, which is sometime in December in Home Slice and at Home Congress. That's a great. I've been mean. I'm going to go there when I'm here. It's a great pizza spot. If you came up to Caleb and you had a gentleman with you slide into his DMs.

[Graham Stephan]

Absolutely.

[Jack]

Caleb hamer.com OnlyFans it was cute.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

Don't be afraid to ask how they know each other. That's always.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, that's smart. That's really smart. Just. I don't know. Did I think about that?

[Jack]

What about dating? Apparently, yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

I mean, that's where I get the majority of my dates, is Hinge and Bumble. Those are the two I.

[Jack]

Hinge and Bumble. What do you find to be More.

[Graham Stephan]

Successful, whatever one I'm focusing on. I can't do both at the same time. So I'm just like going in on one.

[Jack]

And what do you think about dating fans? Do you think that's a weird thing? Like someone who watches your content?

[Graham Stephan]

Okay. It's really difficult because I have. I'm in a weird situation now where it's like almost anyone and everyone that I just like meet in general has at least seen a clip because clips have gone viral or now they're like, I've seen the Rocket Money commercial, you know, so it's like they've seen the face. So a lot of people know who I am, where they are in the stage of like, oh, I'm a die hard fan or oh yeah, I just know you exist. That's what I don't know. So I would totally cool to go on a date with. Like, unless we get to the parasocial weirdness where it's like they know everything about me. I know nothing about them. That's a bit weird. I accidentally went on one of those dates that they didn't, they didn't tell me until during. It wasn't a very good day. But if someone knows of my existence, that's totally fine. It's totally fine. I know there's conversations around power dynamics and stuff, but I don't know, it's really weird.

[Caleb Hammer]

Again, things I think it's impossible to, to not have a power dynamic in some capacity. Like, even if you have a really beautiful woman and like an average looking.

[Jack]

Dude, there's going to be income difference.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah. But there's going to be a power dynamic there because she'll have options in the guy.

[Graham Stephan]

That's the conversation that Twitter tends to fail to have with power dynamics is everything has a power dynamic. Technically you have a power dynamic right now. Because you guys are going to edit this and whatever it is is what it is. That's fine. Even if I have a say. Like, there is a power dynamic. Power dynamic between a teacher and a student and a mother and a daughter and me and my pet. There's a power dynamic anywhere. Power dynamics are not a bad thing. Abuse of power dynamics, of course. And how do you abuse it? Everyone always brings up power dynamic. That's not a bad thing. It's like, hey, you don't get to come on this show unless you do this naughty bad thing. That's an abuse of a power dynamic. That's what people need to freak out about. But so I wouldn't have the issue of them knowing I exist and us getting dinner, that. That wouldn't be a too big of a deal for me. It just gets weird. If it's parasocial, then that's just when I'm not having fun anymore. Cuz like, you know, everything about me, that's just me trying to. You know, this just gets weird.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah. So I've noticed you lean a lot lately into relationship dynamics. What have you noticed between almost counseling couples with their finances?

[Graham Stephan]

I do not know why, but they do not talk about their fucking money. Why don't they talk? No one talks to each other about their money. There's always a hidden debt. We discover almost every episode there's a hidden debt and they just don't talk about it. Or when they go to have the conversation, one becomes bickering and nagging towards the other person. The other person becomes mute and never wants to participate. Been in that conversation again. The communication around finance in this country, especially among couples, is horrendous. I don't get it. We've never had one couple on the show where the communication is not at least bad in some way.

[Caleb Hammer]

Who spends more money, men or women?

[Graham Stephan]

On our show, I. I don't know the real answer, but on our show it's been the dudes.

[Jack]

What are they spending it on?

[Graham Stephan]

They get their tool debt and they get their Ford and, you know, they get their. Their manly toys.

[Caleb Hammer]

They're only fans.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, they're only. They always have some truck in the back that they're gonna fix. They're gonna fix, you know, and. But there's a car payment on it still, even though it's not running.

[Caleb Hammer]

So why do you think they're not talking? Is it the guy who just purely doesn't want to, like, involve his wife or girlfriend. Fiance. In his own finances? Are there. Are they shared finances separate.

[Graham Stephan]

Becomes an argument every single time. Every single time. They just. It always becomes a blame game, or they feel like it's a blame game. Like we're calling out these purchases, calling out the stuff that I'm buying. Oh, like, it's all my fault. You think it's all my fault? It always becomes an argument. They don't know how to communicate it in a healthy way.

[Caleb Hammer]

When you have couples on the show like that, though, what dynamics do you notice do not work? Like, can you tell if people are a good fit for each other or not?

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, there's definitely the. The independent versus codependent people. I'm sure they can figure out in other aspects of marriage. But when one person wants their Finances to be their finances. And the other one wants to achieve these goals together. Getting to retirement together, paying off these debts together. Nope. And the comments are always like, we'll see a divorce follow up in six months. You know, it's like when they're just not on that same page. I know finance isn't the leading cause of divorce in the country, but it's one of the major ones. And if one person just like, hey, this is my money, I'll bring in my money, I want to spend my money. You know, like so what's your advice for couples? Definitely the you need to go into the conversation about budgeting if it's your first time in a non combative spirit, not doing ac accusations of oh, why'd you spend this much money on this toy? It shouldn't have been that. Let's document where the money was spent, not who spent it and just what are the goals we want to do. What does it take to get there and then budget for those goals equally?

[Caleb Hammer]

Do you think a saver could live a happy life with a spender as.

[Graham Stephan]

Long as they're willing to hit the goals to together? I think so. If the, if the spender wants to overtake and not hit any of the goals that the saver wants to get to, I think that's pretty hard. And if the saver is not willing to have any fun that the spender wants to do, then I think that's going to be hard as well. But if they're at least willing to set reasonable goals that they want to get to together and they're both willing to make their compromises to get there, I think that's fair.

[Jack]

I've noticed mental health has came up in your show a lot. I mean it's nearly every episode at this point.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Jack]

What percentage would you just generally say that is part of the equation of these people's poor financial standings in terms.

[Graham Stephan]

Of them bringing it up 99% in terms of it actually impacted them probably closer to 25% fed people with real issues and we want to help them out. A lot of people that get back to the corner and they'll bring up some mental health thing. We have an interesting, I'm very curious 20 years when they look back in this period of culture, what they're going to say, lot of it is on Tik Tok right now of the mental health and trauma Olympics. Has to be one upping each other has to be here's my trauma, here's this thing. And then people get convinced that they Have a trauma in a mental health thing and it's just one upping, one upping, one upping and lots of self diagnosis. I've had way too many people that come on the show, they get backed into the corner of like, hey, you are wrong for this. This is what you need to do to fix it. And then they have some self diagnosis that they never had through a mental health professional. I will respect it and I will take it seriously. Seriously. When you talk to a professional and they at least give it inkling that you might have something, even if it's not an official diagnosis, that is when I will respect it. But if you are getting pushed back on for the first time in your life and you say, well, my anxiety is too high, it's like, is this.

[Caleb Hammer]

All just because we become a little too soft and a little too like gentle with each other that people just aren't getting the reality of the situation? Can't just be told, hey, get your act together. Like that's not okay, that's not cool.

[Graham Stephan]

Maybe that might be a part of it. I still really think just the way social media is, you know, I'm on the cusp of Gen Z. You're technically Gen Z. A lot of that generation that we're involved in or on the cusp of is. It really is kind of the Olympics of just how bad are things? Like you have to be, you have to have the worst trauma, you have to have the worst situation situation and it gets the best engagement. You get rewarded for it on the platforms and I don't know, that's a big part of it. And then people are convinced that they have a trauma. Like someone will tell a story and then like comments will flood and you're, you know, you've been through so much trauma and all this stuff, you're a victim and all this. And it's just.

[Caleb Hammer]

Why do you think the victim mentality lately has seen such a surgeons?

[Graham Stephan]

I'm sure we ebb and flow through everything, right? We haven't flow through cultures. We had the sexual revolution in what, 60s, 70s, 80s. And now we're almost having like an anti sexual revolution amongst the youngest people where like people can't date, people are really lonely and like people aren't even willing to have the conversations about sex. I feel like we probably even flow through this.

[Caleb Hammer]

You know, it's interesting, I saw on Twitter the amount of people who thought the founding fathers were heroes or evil. The majority of Gen Z believed that the founding fathers were evil versus heroes versus boomers who Almost all thought they were heroes. It's interesting to see just how culture has shifted and how people's mindset is going towards a. Let's focus on the bad.

[Graham Stephan]

You're also more rebellious when you're younger too, right?

[Caleb Hammer]

Okay. All right, you know what? Probably, I'll give you that. That's something I didn't think of.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, you always gotta push back, be against the man.

[Caleb Hammer]

That's true.

[Graham Stephan]

Everything's, you know, we're fighting the system.

[Caleb Hammer]

So what are the biggest success stories that you've seen from financial audit?

[Graham Stephan]

We've had our new financial audit follow up channel. We've had quite a few people come on completely debt free, get in that emergency fund, starting to make progress towards those goals. Every time we see that, it's just, it's the most rewarding thing of the show, you know, actually seeing those real results because you can get lost in the, you know, filming every day, making sure the uploads are going well, all that stuff. When you see real people getting real results, that is definitely.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah. So what do you do when they leave the show? Like how do you, how do you support them and make sure that they stay on the right track?

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. So what we tell them specifically for communication and everything, we say, hey, we filmed with a few hundred guests, reach out to us for anything. We'll reach out to here and there. But the main thing is if you need anything or any questions at all, you reach out to us. What we give them is access to our discord and private discord for past guests so they can cheer each other on. We give them our budgeting class, our investing class and our debt class. And then we give them the, the free app forever. Free budgeting app forever. And then we. Any resources they personally want and ask for, they get, they get free certification through course careers for, you know, income help. They get three free therapy sessions every once in a while with the, some of the financial advisors that I use. They can get some free sessions to sit down with them or if they don't, we'll at least cover that session. So anything and everything they need and then any questions they have along the way, they can reach out and then we have them for follow up channels and reassess.

[Caleb Hammer]

So here's what I'm curious about. How many guests are really unhappy with.

[Graham Stephan]

A thumbnail at this at. Well before, you know, in the first year, you know, decent, you know, a few here and there. Now basically none.

[Caleb Hammer]

Basically there are some that, that I'm, I'm looking at where I See them posted because I. Dude, there's so much fun.

[Graham Stephan]

But the thing is, the thing is, the onboarding process is so fucking extensive.

[Caleb Hammer]

They probably hear, dude, these are funny. I'm gonna kill him. Nasty woman, girl, math, I deserve his money. Fuck you, pay me, parasite.

[Graham Stephan]

With every single one of them, the first phone call they have, it is told about the titles and thumbnail. Plus, again, they're from the audience. They literally see it.

[Caleb Hammer]

But how Alp about this one. Controlling Husband Exploits Young Bride to Serve Disturb.

[Graham Stephan]

That was a good one.

[Caleb Hammer]

How, how do, how do they. Because it got 722,000 views. I guarantee that this, this person's like, boss sees that, their co workers see that, their family sees that.

[Graham Stephan]

And, and they are 100 bajillion percent aware that every time most people tell everyone around them that they're coming on, their co workers, they ask permission from their boss. A lot of people, people, you know, there's a lot that goes into it and we give them the warnings of all that as well, so they can prepare for it. But they are ask prohibition. I probably two times for the thumbnail and title before they come on. They're asked permission in the green room. Then they watch the onboarding video going over the thumbnail processes. Then if you go in the green room, you'll see our thumbnails in there with titles under.

[Caleb Hammer]

That's a good idea. Okay.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. They are given literally every opportunity in the world. Every opportunity there. We've gone beyond extensive. I've seen other YouTubers react to our content and they're in, you know, the Brent video where we kind of go over the process of how we do it. And they're like, you guys don't need to be doing all this type of. This is, this is overboard. You guys are going overboard on your onboarding process. These people can just look up the channel before they come on and know they're getting into. Yeah, which is true. I mean, why, baby people, you're an adult, know what you're doing, you know, you're going on the show. But also it. We do have a responsibility. In my mind, I wouldn't feel morally comfortable if we weren't giving them every opportunity in the world to know exactly what they're doing. So.

[Caleb Hammer]

But even then, do you ever. We, baby, do you ever get people still saying after the fact, I don't like it? Or it's like, hey, I know what I'm getting into. I understand it. I'm an adult.

[Graham Stephan]

They are so beyond awareness. They are so beyond aware at this point that we don't get a single complaint. We change the process any and every time that there ever is a complaint. So if we ever had. The reason the onboarding process exists is honestly because of someone like Brent that was like, I didn't know the thumbnail would have me crying or something. It's like, okay, we change the process, you make it better. It's always about growth and making it better.

[Caleb Hammer]

Now I'm curious in terms of your overall business, like, I gotta say, you know, Jack and I showing up here, a lot has changed. It's incredible. Like we walked into a different business than we did before. How has it changed from your perspective?

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, I mean, we're just really building the business is my favorite thing. This is fun. It's not only a hobby, but I'm competitive with myself. You know, there's a lot of avenues we're going into with the special project, whether or not that's in this video. Further diversifying our content with your week and money and financial audit followups. You know, we do have our education now, so we have marketing with that. Our, you know, our big, our biggest part of the business is still the video side. So, you know, we have our shorts editor and then two video editors and then an ad editor and then, and then, you know, three people soon on the casting side. So that's pretty big. We also have the inside sales rep who's able to go get sponsors that I want and stuff, stuff like that.

[Caleb Hammer]

So you, you have surpassed everything that I like every, everything that I could imagine should be done. Like you've done that plus 50 and effectively too.

[Graham Stephan]

There's only a million things more I want to do.

[Caleb Hammer]

Part of me wonders, like I'm intimidated by seeing all the people and all the back end infrastructure that you have set up. How do you learn how to do that? I feel like I would just be kind of lost with, you know.

[Graham Stephan]

Well, yeah, I mean, you don't do it all at once, right? You grow it. And like I brought up on my friend and also past co worker Robert, who, you know, he's also really good at this and we put our heads together a lot and you know, we work on it together and you know, I throw him a lot of the more miscellaneous tasks, a lot of the hr, a lot of stuff like that. So. So I don't know, you surround yourself with the right people, you vet people. Well, we've never had any bad experience with any employees. So every, everything's been good. We, even before people are hired, we bring Them in for a day just to see if they culture fit and stuff. Cuz we're, we're a little rambunctious, you know, we like to have fun. So this is, I don't know. I think if you put in the right investment it works out.

[Caleb Hammer]

How do you keep people motivated?

[Graham Stephan]

We, I like relatively robust bonus structures. Some people are on like quarterly structures. Some people if they hit certain metrics on what they're working on, they get bonuses. But also since I think it is a, a fun place to work in general compared to like if you're going to go to most corporations. I think people like to see the end results. I know people got fired up today when we got the, the results of the 10,000 hours paid off in 10 months median thing. Like that's really good to hear. I don't know. Just seeing the growth. Everyone has such an integral part that no one is just here because they're here and they're not. There's not one person that you could take away and no, it's okay.

[Caleb Hammer]

In terms of the revenue, could you break it down on like a pie chart in terms of where it comes from? Like you don't have to say a specific number, just percentage terms like off.

[Graham Stephan]

The top of my head. I'm pretty bad at that.

[Caleb Hammer]

Really.

[Graham Stephan]

Let me give you the exact one. Can you get my laptop from the table now, Grandma Jack? I want to give them the best. All right, give them the best.

[Caleb Hammer]

I actually really like these.

[Jack]

I do too.

[Graham Stephan]

They're so nice. They're neatos. They don't even sponsor.

[Caleb Hammer]

But I'll say if you could find a way to manufacture these and sell them. I swear like this is the, the coolest thing I've held in my hand.

[Graham Stephan]

Okay. No November, November ad rates for the YouTube channel was 32.8%. One dedicated sponsor was 11, membership was 7%. Another dedicated sponsor was 14.4 and a bunch of other little follow up d different ads, Patreon, that kind of crap and our secondary channels that all adds up to about I think it looks like 10% and then all other minor sponsorships coming together 15.4 and then classes at 11. But no, yeah, that's pretty healthy.

[Caleb Hammer]

In terms of diversification. How do you plan to expand that over time?

[Graham Stephan]

I want to make our education system more robust. We don't want to go through anything cash grab crabby. We just, there's just such a bad negative connotation and fairly so of like other influencer or gurus out there who've just like Put out classes and they're just shitty, you know, that's why we do like, oh, a month take the class. If you didn't find it valuable, we'll refund you, no questions asked. And also Our refund rate is 25 of industry average. So, like, we know we're doing things right.

[Caleb Hammer]

And the refund rate overall is what, like 3%, 2%? Yeah, like lower than that. It's like really, really low.

[Graham Stephan]

And ours is 25% of that. So I know we're. So we want to build that out, make sure we're actually providing value. Then again, with the special project, whether or not that was announced, that'll be hopefully a part. Building out our YouTube membership is a really helpful part as well. And we do all these dedicated shows behind it, behind the paywall there. And that helps support the ups and downs of everything.

[Caleb Hammer]

So I'll tell you what I think you need to do. I'll give you my unsolicited advice. Get a guy on the street. I think a man on the street sort of stuff style right now for shorts that you could turn into long form, like 15 minute videos. I love this channel. The school of hard knocks. Have you seen this guy? He goes, what do you do for a living? Like, I love that. They're great videos and this guy has no fear going up to like strangers. Hey, were you ever broke before? How'd you make your money? I love his channel. Get a guy who's like really good going up to strangers on the street and you're in the perfect spot for it. Like the bar scene, but instead of the pickup videos where they like flirting with women, talk about money, talk about finances, have couples on, on, on like.

[Graham Stephan]

A job on the.

[Jack]

I would do it.

[Caleb Hammer]

Jack would actually be fantastic.

[Jack]

I, I did it already. I just, I know the editing. I couldn't stand the production.

[Caleb Hammer]

You were really good at it, man. You had a good knack at that.

[Jack]

Yeah, they did. Well, I would do it, but I just don't want to produce it.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Caleb Hammer]

That's what I would do. So I would do the man on the Street. That's its own segment, different from you. Then what I would, what I think would be really interesting. And I'm giving you all the ideas that I just don't have the energy for. But I know they would do well, have an attorney on that goes through legal issues for people. So it's like they'll get like a free attorney. But like, imagine I come to you like you were talking about the Landlord issue.

[Graham Stephan]

Nobody still is.

[Caleb Hammer]

And.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

And I just say, like, hey, dude, my landlord is this and that. And there's like, can I see your lease? Show the lease. And they kind of go over it, but it's like, you know, we came up. Oh, there's another one. Okay, so the legal. A legal thing. The next thing I'd love for you to do is a fitness audit.

[Graham Stephan]

Okay. To hire someone for that one.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah. It doesn't have to be. I'm not talking like, you, but I think hire biggest. Yeah, hire someone. Hire someone who's just, like, you know, ripped, but basically to do a. Like, Jack.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. They're all.

[Caleb Hammer]

Do a fitness audit of people where they could go through. And this is. This is a lot more work, but, like, go through and, like, go through their diet. Like, you go through someone's finances. Go through, like, have them track what they eat for like a month or for a week or something like this, something like that, but they go through, and it's like, you ate a cheeseburger. What are you thinking? You pancakes with this and this mocha thing that's 700 calories.

[Graham Stephan]

Like, now, that'll really outrage right in.

[Caleb Hammer]

But you know what?

[Graham Stephan]

Fat shamer.

[Caleb Hammer]

I think that that would be good. And, like, you know, put them on the spot in a place that they could get healthy and could learn the proper exercises and ways that they could get in shape and diversifying away from you. I think that that's the only thing I would do. And eventually you have the Caleb Hammer, the. The audit brand.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

Because right now you got financial audit. I want to see fitness audit. I want to see legal audit.

[Graham Stephan]

Yes, that's it.

[Caleb Hammer]

I want to see the man on the street.

[Graham Stephan]

Why don't you do it? Doing things.

[Caleb Hammer]

Some of the energy for it.

[Graham Stephan]

You're not old.

[Caleb Hammer]

Zero motivation to do it. Like, to me, it sounds daunting. It sounds like a ton of work. And I'm like, do I really want to do that? Probably not.

[Graham Stephan]

This the guy you want to partner with? Are you sure you don't want to?

[Caleb Hammer]

Well, Jack doesn't have motivation. You know, I'm trying to Jack in.

[Jack]

The shape that's possible. The thing is, we're both passionate about what we're passionate about, and it's hard to expand the parameters. Right now, the iced coffee hour for me is all I want. It's all I need. I would consider doing other things, but most of the time, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Like, I want to go and I want to make straight Interview videos. But at the same time, I don't want to do all of the post production process. I want to go try this thing out. But I know that that's going to also there's going to be all of this auxiliary work with any other venture that's taken on.

[Graham Stephan]

There's nothing wrong with hiring people. Hiring good people.

[Caleb Hammer]

I don't like.

[Jack]

We pay a lot of like agencies to do certain things for us and we have a few people that we pay to take care of a lot of our responsibilities. So we, we don't really have any like full time things employees. But we do have money going out to several different people that provide services for us that make our lives easier.

[Graham Stephan]

You like third parties? Because that's the thing we're trying to in house almost everything. Because I feel like no one cares.

[Jack]

You make a lot a lot a lot a lot more than us.

[Graham Stephan]

Well, yeah. Okay. Well maybe if you in house things more, you would be able to make things better though.

[Caleb Hammer]

True. Like that's what to me it's management. Right. To me it's management. It's now we have to manage someone and oversee that. I don't like what, like meetings, like.

[Graham Stephan]

Sitting down and just making things better. Just like strategizing and like getting weeds. I love getting in and just like, let's figure this out.

[Caleb Hammer]

I love title thumbnail strategy conversations like this. This I love. Title, thumbnail I like. And then the review process of making sure the episode is perfect.

[Graham Stephan]

Nothing more than sitting down and making a thumbnail.

[Jack]

I would prefer to build out like systems than I would with that stuff, honestly.

[Caleb Hammer]

Really?

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

We all sit in that room over there and we spend an hour, three days a week making titles and thumbnails and I, I could always hire. Never felt a noose around my neck.

[Caleb Hammer]

Hire me as a consultant. Oh, that's all it is, man.

[Graham Stephan]

You would make ours too. They wouldn't be as fun and rowdy anymore.

[Caleb Hammer]

You give you some good ideas.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Caleb Hammer]

So in terms of your own finances, you mentioned in the past that you're worried about dying poor in a Walmart floor. Are you still worried about that?

[Graham Stephan]

Maybe my worries change. Maybe I'm less worried worried about that. And I want them. I'm worried about the getting old wife kids thing.

[Caleb Hammer]

Like I don't know, interesting. Should shift it.

[Graham Stephan]

Maybe it shifted. I don't know. I did the whole, you know, drama thing and stuff like that. You know, kind of. It was like online and now I just like don't fear anything like that anymore.

[Jack]

It's Interesting, because even just a year ago, when we last talked to you, still maintained that you were worried about dying. Porn, Walmart floor. But now in just one year, that's not really something that you think about too often.

[Graham Stephan]

Not as much, I think, because I hit that safety goal.

[Jack]

So it really was achieving the goal. Because I know a lot of people, they achieve their certain financial goal and then they continue to extend that.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah, well, I mean, I have stretch goals that I'd like to get to out of competitiveness with myself, of course, but that was my, like, safety goal. Safety goal. And I hit it.

[Caleb Hammer]

And you don't feel as worried about money now that you've hit that?

[Graham Stephan]

No, not at least. Everything collapsing? No.

[Caleb Hammer]

Do you worry about everything collapsing?

[Graham Stephan]

Well, if everything collapsed, I'd be fine. Unless everything collapsed countrywide, but then we'd all be fine.

[Caleb Hammer]

Sure. That's interesting. I've not noticed much of a correlation between me feeling, like, financially secure in money. Yeah, it's just I still feel the same, but that's probably more of a mental thing. I'm still kind of like, looking over expenses. I'm still kind of thinking about, like, do I really need that on Amazon? Probably not.

[Graham Stephan]

I could give you three free therapy sessions that you need.

[Caleb Hammer]

I'm good. I'm good.

[Graham Stephan]

Talk. Talk to a financial therapist maybe.

[Caleb Hammer]

I'm going to tell you a huge life hack. Yeah, huge. This will save you all your money in taxes. Marry someone who's a real estate professional, all of a sudden. Now real estate losses can be deducted against your active income, assuming she's full time in real estate. So now this, here's what this means. Let's just say I'm just round numbers here. You make a million dollars in a year. Now you're paying taxes on that million dollars at 37%. Let's just call it 300 grand. Wiped away, gone, poof, done forever. But your wife is a real estate professional. Well, guess what? Now you buy a commercial property with $500,000 down. It's a $2 million property. Now, on that $2 million property, you could do what's called cost segregation analysis, where basically they go in and they say, hey, this ceiling has a lifespan of 15 years. These floors have a lifespan of 7 years. Here's the value of all of this. Here's the depreciation schedule, and here's what we could take bonus depreciation on. So Maybe on that $2 million billing, again, round numbers, you get a million dollars of active losses as a write off. Now all of A sudden you got a million dollar income, a million dollars of losses. Merge the 20 tax whatsoever.

[Graham Stephan]

Putting that on the dating profile.

[Caleb Hammer]

Yeah.

[Graham Stephan]

Must be real estate.

[Caleb Hammer]

Now here's the thing. In fairness, fairness, that does lower your cost basis on the real estate. So if you were to sell that then becomes active income, you're gonna have to pay the taxes. Sure. The goal is that you just keep 1031, exchanging the properties, you keep tax deferring it and you build a whole nest egg of tax free income. Then eventually you die and you could leave. I think as of now it's $28 million tax free to your heirs. Or you could do a trust and there's other things that you could do on that. There you go.

[Graham Stephan]

No one complain about 28 million.

[Caleb Hammer]

No.

[Graham Stephan]

So that's pretty good. That'd be. That would be. Yeah. Fucking, that'd be a crazy number.

[Jack]

This sounds pretty, you know, aggressive but have you ever considered trying like Ozempic?

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. Needles. Really big scared, big scared guy.

[Caleb Hammer]

What if someone else does it for you?

[Graham Stephan]

What's the needles?

[Caleb Hammer]

What if you don't look at it? I hear it. I hear it's like a pen. Right? Isn't it like one of those things?

[Graham Stephan]

The idea of a needle existing is already making my legs go queasy.

[Jack]

Interesting. Okay.

[Graham Stephan]

It's like, like that's fair.

[Jack]

I was, I was just curious about that because I know a lot of people trying it. It's very effective. I've heard. Not, you know, advice there, but I've heard it works.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. Well, one thing I would be interested in it, it's kind of like debt consolidation. Right. So you still need to change the behavior or else it's not going to be sustainable long term. Like you can debt consolidate but if you don't change the behavior, you're building those credit cards all the way back up. So like I'd be open to it, but wasn't. If you guys ever see me become skinny, it's probably not cuz of O because I'm a little with nat, so no tattoos either. I'd love a base clef though. Bass clef right here. Musical base.

[Caleb Hammer]

That would be cool.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. For my trombone days.

[Caleb Hammer]

You know what I would do is a bass clef on the one side and a hammer.

[Graham Stephan]

Hammer. I could not do my hammer.

[Jack]

It would be a little too much.

[Caleb Hammer]

You don't think a hammer.

[Graham Stephan]

No. So egotistical. Just like weird.

[Jack]

Yeah, yeah. What is a criticism that you get a lot that you think is completely invalid.

[Graham Stephan]

No. You guys brought up the Interesting one earlier, the. What did you guys call it? Not taking advantage.

[Jack]

Do you.

[Caleb Hammer]

Are you exploiting poor people?

[Graham Stephan]

Exploiting, yeah, that. That one. I think because of just our entire process that people just aren't privy to. It's like I can see the criticism because they're not informed of everything going into it, but it just, it feels. Knowing everything we do in the conversations we have with them. It feels very endowed. Listen, if we never changed the process from two and a half years ago when I was just in my kitchen, you know, in my condo filming the show, like, yes, okay, that would be different. But if we're putting in the work, we're putting in the change and everyone's. We're getting very positive experiences across the board. Except for a few misses here and there where we change the process. Yes, I would agree, but that just. I don't know, it's. It's bad takes. Again, everyone's just one thing is. It's really interesting online that I think actually, no, it's. It's. I don't know, you never want to. I've watched podcasts now or influencers or whatever, I guess if that's what we are, are on it and then they make a complaint and it's just like, there's no point. No one can relate to it. It's just. It's just so silly. So I don't know.

[Caleb Hammer]

I'm talking about like, don't you hate it when you have to take your Lamborghini for service?

[Jack]

Like phone, like streaming is harder than a 9 to 5.

[Graham Stephan]

Well, that shit's crazy. But I meant more like. Like just thinking about criticisms, you know? Cuz no one. You can't know what it's like to get that overwhelming sense of mountains of criticism and hate against you. You can't. You do not know what that is like until you're in the position. And I always saw people do that. Then I was like, what the dude? This is. You have the coolest thing in the world. And I do have the coolest thing in the world now. And I'm so blessed for that. I do see that. I never understood it before. I understood. Understand. Oh, it's overwhelming when the Internet's coming after you for a second, you know? Yeah, this is crazy. This is. You can't.

[Jack]

People are getting way too comfortable throwing hate at other people. And people are getting more and more aggressive to the point of it just being blatant bullying and people bandwagon. Like I see things on Instagram where I saw this really sad Video recently is of a flight attendant. It was like a, not an older lady but you know, like middle aged or so. And she was working a job, just simply minding her own business as a flight attendant. These people walk into the plane and they have this massive dog and it was captioned, service dogs have gone too far. Because it was like a Great Dane or something they're bringing onto the, on the plane. The Great Dane steps on the, the flight attendant's foot and she goes ow, ow. And she's saying have a good day or have a safe flight to everybody that comes in. But the Great Dane stepped on her foot. She said ow in kind of a disturbed tone. And one of the comments was just hate for the flight attendant. And it had an arrow pointing towards the like button and it had like a hundred likes. And I'm thinking to myself, this flight att. Because she sounded annoyed. And I'm thinking to myself, this person is sending a hundred plus people. At least. That was just after it had been post for a little bit at this random lady. She didn't agree to be filmed. She's doing her job. You have no idea what she's going through. She's a human, just like you. She has her own struggles. She's in her own world, as are you. And I'm like, I. It's unreal how comfortable people are just saying hate for this person. Like this comment. And they're farming engagement.

[Graham Stephan]

Oh yeah, engagement.

[Jack]

But. But to do it in the most egregious and unacceptable way for this poor lady who had no idea what was going on. She's just doing her own job. Especially when someone's doing their job. You know what I mean?

[Graham Stephan]

I just.

[Jack]

The thing that, honestly, one of my biggest pet peeves is making fun of people for whatever job that they have.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. Oh yeah.

[Jack]

And it's crazy. I don't know. And she, it just, just really. It's kind of, you know, riling me up.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah.

[Jack]

But it was pretty upsetting. And I made a very long comment back to it.

[Caleb Hammer]

Oh good.

[Jack]

And I, and I was like. And then I said hate for this comment was in. I didn't say hate to this person in my response, but I just said hate for this comment.

[Graham Stephan]

Everything's engagement bait now. I mean, this is what you're seeing everywhere. I, I forgot the one thing I was trying to say. I got lost in my thoughts. The one thing I was trying to say, the thing that I think I don't like is in the world of online, it's if they don't like your content. Content, they will just assume the worst about you in every instance. And I think one thing that kind of sucks is I enjoy making people happy, watching the content, being happy. And I want people to like the show. And if people don't like the show, that's okay. That sucks. This is, I don't know, that's what I struggled with, I think towards the beginning of this year, end of last year maybe when we first met. Whereas it's like people just assuming the worst. They get parasocial, they just, they make all these assumptions and that that sucked. But it's been a good year. Moved beyond that, you know, just kind of don't look at that stuff and just out of, out of sight, out of mind. But I guess based on your question, that that's the one thing that just kind of annoys me. Those two things, that criticism that you brought up, that, yeah, I've seen that a couple times online. I'm like, gosh, you don't know the process. And it's just, yeah, people just assume the worst and it's really weird. It's really weird.

[Jack]

And lastly on quitting YouTube. Ah, because I know you've previously mentioned quite a few times that you've always not been the biggest fan of being like a camera facing personality on YouTube. You're not a huge fan of any sort of fame. Even though, you know, I wouldn't consider YouTubers famous, but they're definitely recognizable and famous to some extent.

[Graham Stephan]

Sure.

[Jack]

You know what I mean with parasocial relationships and just being recognized, how do you feel about that? Do you still want to quit YouTube?

[Graham Stephan]

No, I'm, I'm very happy now. I'm very happy. What changed based on exactly what we were just talking about? Once I learned how to separate from online and just accept that not everyone's gonna like me, not everyone's gonna like the show and that's okay. And that sometimes, you know, people will scream into the void, that's okay. I can, I can be happy. That's what used to get to me. And I was just like, I just want to step away from this and just help manage it. Now I get to meet with people every day, film, put out things, put out episodes that are literally changing tens of thousands of people's lives and getting positive results and also entertaining people, getting people through the work day. The fact that we get to do that and people actually show up and watch three days a week is the most insane blessing in the world. And I couldn't see doing Anything else. I love this to my core.

[Jack]

Did you stop reading comments somewhere in there or did you just divorce however you're doing on a daily basis basis with whatever people are saying about you online?

[Graham Stephan]

I think I had a lot of fear back then of people not liking me or people saying things that weren't true. And that fears has gone away as I, I went to therapy, talked about it, worked it with it through a therapist and also, yeah, I just stopped going on some more outrage driven places online where it's, you know, engagement. You know, you get your karma, you get your like you get your whatever based on, you know, outrage, engagement. I just stopped looking at it and there's really no need to.

[Jack]

All right, well, I think that is it. Caleb, thank you for being so generous with your time. Thank you, team. Caleb's got his whole team. They're all helping out with this.

[Graham Stephan]

So I'm hungry.

[Caleb Hammer]

Well, yeah, we're going to link to your channel down below in the description. Obviously, if you've never seen Caleb Hammer before, the channel is down below. Thank you so much for letting us use your studio, your equipment, letting us film here. For the Diet Coke, for the, the coffee.

[Graham Stephan]

Don't forget the needles.

[Caleb Hammer]

These are so neat. I want you to sell these two. That's the other thing. Thing.

[Graham Stephan]

These are sponsor us Nito.

[Jack]

Caleb, it's always a pleasure.

[Graham Stephan]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Jack]

Thank you guys for watching. Until next time.