Can air traffic controllers keep calm and carry on — without pay?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Indicator from Planet Money

Episode: Can air traffic controllers keep calm and carry on — without pay?

Date: November 7, 2025

Hosts: Waylon Wong (A), Stephen Bissaha (B) | Guest: Nicholas Matthews (E), Sarah Binder (C)

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Overview

This episode examines how the ongoing government shutdown is impacting air traffic controllers, who are working without pay. Amid job data delays and political gridlock, the hosts explore why air traffic controllers are at the heart of government shutdown pressure, the personal toll on these workers, and how their essential role can sway national politics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jobs Data Disrupted by Shutdown

• Government Data Gap: With the Bureau of Labor Statistics unable to release jobs data due to the shutdown, the hosts rely on alternate sources (ADP, Revelio Labs, Chicago Fed) for economic insights, noting discrepancies and uncertainties.
  • ADP: +42,000 private sector jobs in October
  • Revelio Labs: –9,000 jobs overall (includes public sector)
  • Chicago Fed: Unemployment rate up to 4.36% from 4.1% last year
    (00:48–01:14)

2. Essential Workers Can't Be Replaced

• Irreplaceable Government Functions: While many government tasks can be handled by outside data sources, critical jobs like TSA agents and air traffic controllers have no alternative.
  • Noted example: Colleague Sierra Wattas endured a 3-hour security line at Houston airport due to staff shortages (01:28–01:53)

3. Air Traffic Controllers: Shutdown Pressure Point

• Why Controllers Matter Politically: Prof. Sarah Binder explains that air traffic delays are an “immediate pain” visible to the public, making them powerful drivers in ending shutdowns.
  • Quote [03:58]: “What are the spillovers of the shutdown that get people off the sidelines and, as we say, into the game?...Air traffic delays. We see it on TV. We see lines at airports. That is like immediate pain. And lawmakers recognize it.” (C, 03:58–04:24)
• Historical Precedent: In 2019, a shortage of air traffic controllers caused the FAA to ground flights at LaGuardia, and the shutdown ended that day.
  (04:23–04:38)

4. Air Traffic Controllers as Unwilling Political Pawns

• Union’s Stance: Nick Daniels, union president, resists the narrative of controllers as “shutdown saviors.”
  • Quote [05:00]: “We are the rope in this tug of war game that’s going on.” (E, 05:00–05:06)
• Narrative vs. Reality: Binder emphasizes that tidy political stories overshadow facts—controllers are cast as decisive, even if it’s only partly true.
  • Quote [05:11]: “Politically, the narrative is that those air traffic delays push those lawmakers to go to the table right at the end. Now, whether or not A causes B, it doesn’t matter... Air traffic delays, right? Even if it wasn’t specifically the only thing that mattered.” (C, 05:11–05:39)

5. Inside the Control Tower: Human Toll

• Stress and Professionalism:

  • Nicholas Matthews describes the need for composure:
    • Quote [06:00]: “They will react to your tone of voice or how you sound. So if you sound like someone who’s in training, everybody on the frequency responds to you that way... it can mean they ask more questions, making sure that what you’re saying is what you really mean.” (E, 06:00–06:12)
  • Controller Voice Humor:
    • Quote [06:39]: “I’ll have a ham sandwich, please.” (E, 06:39–06:41)
    • Hosts joke about how commanding the “controller voice” sounds.

• High-Stress Scenarios:

  • Matthews explains handling emergencies:
    • Quote [07:05]: “The job of the controller is to control all these things, and then something like that happens and you no longer have control of that situation. All you can do is try to get them as much help as you can.” (E, 07:05–07:34)

• Layered Stress:

  • Controllers face both the challenge of keeping airways safe and financial anxiety from missed paychecks.

    • Matthews notes: he’s been working six-day weeks since 2021, now without pay.
    • Some controllers take second jobs, and missed paychecks make daily life more strained.
    • Trainees, without financial cushion, are particularly vulnerable.
      (07:56–08:44)

  • Quote [08:44]: “I don’t have an end date. I don’t know how far on I have to make it stretch. That’s the worst part of all of this, is really not knowing, you know, what’s the end of this look like?” (E, 08:44–09:02)

6. Staffing Shortage, Fatigue, and Safety

• Systemic Under-Staffing:
  • The FAA currently has about 11,000 controllers but needs roughly 4,000 more.
  • The result: experienced staff are stretched thin, leading to chronic overtime and mounting fatigue.
  • Quote [09:18]: “The shortage means experienced controllers like Nicholas have already been working long hours. He says he’s been putting in six-day weeks since 2021. Now he’s doing this without pay—fatigue, plus the anxiety over this lost income. That’s a dangerous combination.” (A, 09:18–09:34)
  • Matthews self-assesses daily for readiness, but worry about financial stress interfering with safety.
    • Quote [09:34]: “Every day you kind of have to take a little self evaluation. ... Are my financial concerns also a reason that might cause me to say, hey, I just don’t have it in me today to...be responsible for the safety of everybody else.” (E, 09:34–09:56)

7. Not Air Traffic Controllers’ Fight to Fix

• Responsibility Rests Elsewhere:
  • Matthews: “One job that Nicholas definitely doesn’t want is fixing the political stalemate. He says that is the responsibility of the decision makers above him.” (A, 09:56–10:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “They will react to your tone of voice or how you sound.” (Nicholas Matthews, 06:00)
• “We are the rope in this tug of war game that’s going on.” (Nick Daniels, 05:00)
• “I don’t have an end date. ... That’s the worst part of all of this, is really not knowing what’s the end of this look like?” (Nicholas Matthews, 08:44)
• “Every day you kind of have to take a little self evaluation. ... Are my financial concerns also a reason that might cause me to say, hey, I just don’t have it in me today to, you know, be responsible for the safety of everybody else.” (Nicholas Matthews, 09:34)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:48–01:14 – Alternate jobs data in absence of official BLS report
• 01:28–01:53 – Example of TSA/air traffic staff shortage effects
• 03:58–04:24 – Prof. Sarah Binder: public pain points drive politics
• 04:23–04:38 – 2019 shutdown; air traffic delay ends stalemate
• 05:00–05:06 – ATC union position: “the rope in this tug of war”
• 06:00–06:41 – Nicholas Matthews on stress/communication (“controller voice”)
• 07:05–07:34 – Handling in-flight emergencies
• 08:44–09:02 – Living with uncertainty: no end in sight for shutdown
• 09:18–09:34 – Long hours, fatigue, and stress in the control tower

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Conclusion

This episode spotlights the essential, irreplaceable role of air traffic controllers and the mounting strain caused by both system-wide staffing shortages and the unique pressures of working unpaid during a government shutdown. Their professional composure masks the acute personal and systemic toll, revealing a fragile balance—and underscoring how their situation can move political mountains, even as they simply seek to do their jobs safely and steadily.

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Transcript

[A]

Npr. This is the INDICATOR from Planet Money. I'm Waylon Wong. And joining us for the next three months as co host is Stephen Bissaha from the Gulf States Newsroom. Welcome aboard, Steven.

[B]

Yeah, thank you, Waylon. Yeah. I'm joining you from the new official indicator, Birmingham Studios.

[A]

Ooh, very exciting. And you're here, here just in time for jobs Friday. Yay. Woo. And you know, it's another weird one because we should be getting updated numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. However, the government shutdown means we are not getting the BLS jobs report for the second month in a row.

[B]

Instead, we'll look at the numbers from the companies ADP and Revelio Labs. ADP says private employers added 42,000 jobs in October. Revellio Labs, which also factors in public sector jobs, says the U.S. economy actually lost 9,000 jobs. And the Chicago Fed forecasts the unemployment rate at 4.36%. That's up from 4.1% last year.

[A]

So we've got other data sources partly filling the void left by the bls, but there are other government functions that are much harder to find alternatives for and jobs that can't really be replaced. One example, TSA agents.

[B]

Earlier this week, our colleague here, Sierra Wattas, spent three hours just in the security line at George Bush Intercontinental Airport in Houston. We called her as she was about to board her flight.

[A]

So how long have you been at the airport? So I got here at 5:30 this morning. It's one right now. So brain's not working at this point. I can't think about how many hours. Long, long day.

[B]

Yeah. Not a fun day at the airport.

[C]

No.

[B]

The administration said this week that it will start cutting traffic at 40 of the country's busiest airports. And this puts the spotlight on another important federal air traffic controllers. They are the workers in the control towers and radar rooms that help aircrafts keep a safe distance from each other. There are around 13,000 of them working without pay.

[A]

Air traffic controllers were also main characters during the 2019 shutdown. Today on the show, we look at why this group of federal workers is such a big pressure point. And one air traffic controller tells us about his experience, experience during the shutdown.

[D]

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[A]

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[D]

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[A]

Edu A big part of the government shutdown is a battle over the political narrative. Like who's to blame? Sarah Binder is a professor of political science at George Washington University. She says there needs to be an issue that makes everyday people care.

[C]

What are the spillovers of the shutdown that get people off the sidelines and, as we say, into the game? Like telling reporters, pollsters, who they blame. So what type of issues are those? Like the clearest one from 2018, 2019, and we're seeing it yet again, are air traffic delays. We see it on tv. We see lines at airports. That is like immediate pain. And lawmakers recognize it.

[B]

In January of 2019, during the previous shutdown, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered a ground stop at LaGuardia Airport in New York. The agency said shortages of air traffic controllers were causing delays. The shutdown ended that same day.

[A]

And that's where this story was born, that controllers were the key to resolving the impasse. The National Air Traffic Controllers association, however, rejects this idea.

[B]

What they don't want to be the shutdown saviors, the heroes here?

[A]

That is not how they see it. Union President Nick Daniels told us, told CNN recently that he does not want the group to be cast in that same role again.

[E]

Air traffic controllers didn't ask to be thrust into this spotlight. We are the rope in this tug of war game that's going on.

[A]

Still, Sarah Binder says that a tidy story tends to override reality.

[C]

Politically, the narrative is that those air traffic delays push those lawmakers to go to the table right at the end. Now, whether or not A causes B, it doesn't matter. In politics, it's how we interpret past events and certainly the case that, if you ask me, oh, what ended that last shutdown? Air traffic delays, right? Even if it wasn't specifically the only thing that mattered.

[B]

Now the government is facing the prospect of air travel delays Stretching into the Thanksgiving holiday. The shutdown is putting a lot of stress on controllers like Nicholas Matthews. He works at the Savannah Hilton Head International Airport in Savannah, Georgia. And the last thing a controller needs is stress. The job requires calm and steady communication with pilots.

[E]

They will react to your tone of voice or how you sound. So if you sound like someone who's in training, everybody on the frequency responds to you that way. It can mean they ask more questions, making sure that what you're saying is what you really mean.

[A]

Do you have, like, an air traffic control voice and is it different than, like, the voice you use at home?

[E]

I just try to keep it very consistent at work. So it's always the same tone. You're sort of trying to not remove all emotion, but maintain a very level sort of emotion. Yeah. Most people do talk about their controller voice.

[A]

What if you said, like, I'll have a ham sandwich, please, in your controller voice?

[E]

I'll have a ham sandwich, please.

[A]

All business.

[E]

Yes, absolutely.

[B]

Get that man a ham sandwich. Who could deny that voice?

[A]

I don't even know if he likes ham sandwiches.

[B]

Nicholas got his initial training in the air force and served in the military before going to work at the FAA in 20. He says the job requires hundreds of decisions every day, Some of them involving high stress situations like a plane that has equipment failure.

[E]

Definitely we're going to, for one, offer them all the nearby airports so they may be able to divert to an airport different from what they planned. The other thing is helping them maybe visually locate landmarks, obstacles, or runways so that they're able to find them quickly. And then obviously, we prep that airport wherever they're going. The job of the controller is to control all these things, and then something like that happens and you no longer have control of that situation. All you can do is try to get them as much help as you can.

[B]

Ooh, I. I do not want that stress in my life. That is so much responsibility.

[A]

No, I can't imagine having that job, honestly. And, you know, now Nicholas and his coworkers are in another situation they can't control. Nicholas lived through the previous government shutdown. That one lasted 35 days. The current shutdown has surpassed that and is now the longest on record.

[B]

Air traffic controllers are required by law to keep working, even during a shutdown. The union doesn't condone employees calling in sick at a protest. But transportation secretary Sean Duffy said controllers are calling in in larger numbers than usual, and others are taking on second jobs to replace lost income.

[A]

Nicholas and his coworkers collected a partial paycheck a few weeks ago. They missed one entire paycheck last week, and they'll miss another one next week if the shutdown drags on. So they're dealing with a stressful job and the stress of putting food on.

[B]

The T. Nicholas was able to get a zero interest loan from USAA because he's a military veteran. But he worries about the trainees at his airport. They're new on the job and may not have a financial cushion. Nicholas himself is anxious about how long the shutdown will last.

[E]

One thing that was the same then and now was that we didn't know when it was going to be over. I know I can try to stretch what I have available to me so far, but I don't have an end date. I don't know how far on I have to make it stretch. That's the worst part of all of this, is really not knowing, you know, what's the end of this look like?

[B]

The controllers union has been clear on the toll the political situation is taking on its members. The system was already under strain before the shutdown. The Union says the FAA has around 11,000 controllers and needs about 4,000 more to be properly staffed.

[A]

The shortage means experienced controllers like Nicholas have already been working long hours. He says he's been putting in six day weeks since 2021. Now he's doing this without pay fatigue, plus the anxiety over this lost income. That's a dangerous combination.

[E]

Every day you kind of have to take a little self evaluation. You have to go, am I really prepared to go in and do this job today? The problem with the shutdown is it adds that additional stress where I have to also go, okay, Are my financial concerns also a reason that might cause me to say, hey, I just don't have it in me today to, you know, be responsible for the safety of everybody else.

[A]

One job that Nicholas definitely doesn't want is fixing the political stalemate. He says that is the responsibility of the decision makers above him. This episode was produced by Julia Ritchie with engineering by Sina Lofredo. It was fact checked by Tyler Jones. Kate Concannon is the show's editor and the indicator is a production of npr.

[D]

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