Podcast Summary: The Indicator from Planet Money

Episode: Can American cities grow AND stay affordable?
Date: December 15, 2025
Hosts: Wayland Wong & Stephen Messaha
Guests: Rachel Ramos (Huntsville resident), Yonah Freemark (Urban Institute), Dennis Madsen (City of Huntsville Planning Manager)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the "affordability paradox" many American cities face: rapid growth fueled by low living costs can, over time, drive prices up, threatening the very affordability that attracted newcomers. Through the lens of Huntsville, Alabama—a city experiencing rapid expansion yet remaining relatively affordable—the hosts examine how urban planning, housing policy, and zoning reforms influence affordability and growth. The episode includes insights from local planners, residents, and housing researchers, drawing broader lessons from similar U.S. cities.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Huntsville's Appeal & Resident Perspective

• Growth Stats: Huntsville is currently growing by about 18 new residents per day.
  (00:01, Stephen Messaha)
• Huntsville Attractions: Space and defense sector jobs, cultural amenities, and affordability draw people to the city.
  (00:17, Wayland Wong)
• Resident Experience: Rachel Ramos enjoys high quality of life and affordable housing—$1,250/month for a three-bedroom apartment, which she notes is less expensive than places she's lived in Montana and Florida.
  (00:34, Rachel Ramos)
• Concern Over Rising Prices: Rachel expresses concern about the longevity of affordability, observing that rapid expansion in previous cities she’s lived in led to price increases.

  “Just with any place that I've lived where there was a lot of expansion, prices tend to kind of go up.”
  — Rachel Ramos (01:21)

The Economic Paradox: Growth Threatens Affordability

• National Context: Huntsville homes are about 25% cheaper by square foot than the national average. However, this lower cost attracts people, which then risks raising prices—a classic urban economics paradox.
  (01:10, Wayland Wong)
• Historical Precedents: Austin, TX and Atlanta, GA are cited as cities where rapid growth, initially fueled by affordability and quality of life, eventually strained housing supply and drove up prices.

  “Austin is a great example of a community that went from relatively isolated... into suddenly a booming center of employment. And with that, there has been a vast increase in housing costs in that city.”
  — Yonah Freemark (03:25)

Policy Response: Planning Ahead in Huntsville

• Proactive Planning: Huntsville’s planning department anticipated housing pressures about ten years ago, recognizing the national housing shortage and acting early to increase supply.
  (04:47, Dennis Madsen)
• Massive Housing Build-out: Since 2020, the city has added 16,000 apartment units, with the broader North Alabama region building even more.

  “Since 2020, just within the city of Huntsville, we've put 16,000 apartment units on the ground.”
  — Dennis Madsen (05:22)

Southern Advantage: Space and Regulation

• More Room, Fewer Regulations: The South tends to build homes faster due to ample land and fewer restrictive building regulations, which haven’t hindered growth as much as in other regions.
  (05:40, Wayland Wong; 05:52, Stephen Messaha; 05:57, Dennis Madsen)

Diversification: The Importance of Housing Variety

• Diverse Housing Types: In land-constrained or built-out cities, planners recommend granting permits for a range of housing types—not just single-family homes, but also apartments and “missing middle” options like townhomes and quads.
  (06:18, Dennis Madsen; 06:25, Wayland Wong)
• Trickle-Down Affordability: Adding high-end apartments can help overall affordability by attracting higher-income residents to new units, thus preventing displacement in lower-rent buildings.

  “If those [expensive apartments] don't exist, then [wealthier renters] start to look... at apartment complexes that maybe had been providing affordability. ...they start pushing those folks out.”
  — Dennis Madsen (06:45)

• Missing Middle Housing: Explained as house-like structures divided into multiple units—more affordable than single-family homes but smaller-scale than large complexes. Many U.S. cities zoned these out of existence, a practice some planners are now working to reverse.
  (07:54, Dennis Madsen; 08:12, Stephen Messaha)

Barriers: Zoning Codes and Changing Family Needs

• Zoning Legacy: Many cities’ zoning codes were designed for mid-20th-century nuclear families, not today’s diverse households. This restricts construction of alternative housing types needed for affordability in the current era.
  (07:21, Dennis Madsen; 07:34, Wayland Wong)
• Efforts to Reform: Planners now advocate updating zoning laws to legalize diverse housing arrangements, including the “missing middle.”
  (08:31, Dennis Madsen)

Limits of Building Alone

• Role of Subsidies: Building market-rate housing alone is not enough for low-income residents; direct subsidies are necessary for inclusive affordability.

  “Low income people in the United States need additional subsidy to be able to afford quality homes in our communities.”
  — Yonah Freemark (08:51)

Rethinking Growth vs. Affordability

• Not Always a Conflict: Rising prices can reflect strong demand, which signals a city’s appeal. Growth and affordability are not absolute opposites; rather, trade-offs exist, and policy can shape outcomes.

  “Growth occurs because people see appeal in living in a certain place. ...People continue to want to move to those communities and see an overall benefit to the quality of life.”
  — Yonah Freemark (09:09)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rachel Ramos (Resident Perspective):

  “Compared to other places that I've lived, like Montana and Florida, I find it less expensive to live here.” (01:01)
  “I am concerned about it because just with any place that I've lived where there was a lot of expansion, prices tend to kind of go up.” (01:21)

• Yonah Freemark (Housing Researcher):

  “So you get stuck in this challenging loop that is difficult to get out of unless you have substantially higher rates of housing production.” (04:21)
  “Low income people in the United States need additional subsidy to be able to afford quality homes in our communities.” (08:51)
  “I don't necessarily think we should think of growth and affordability as in contrast to one another...” (09:09)

• Dennis Madsen (City Planner):

  “We are about 228 square miles, which is Chicago in terms of land area.” (05:57)
  “If those [expensive apartments] don't exist, then... they start pushing those folks out of the markets.” (06:45)

Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:01 – 01:21: Introduction, Huntsville’s appeal, and resident concerns about affordability
• 03:08 – 04:21: Guest Yonah Freemark on affordability paradox and the Austin example
• 04:40 – 05:22: Dennis Madsen on proactive housing planning in Huntsville
• 06:18 – 08:31: Diversification, missing middle housing, and zoning code barriers
• 08:51 – 09:43: Yonah Freemark on necessity of subsidies and rethinking the growth/affordability dichotomy

Conclusion

The episode highlights the delicate policy balance city leaders must strike: promoting economic and residential growth without pricing out existing and future residents. Huntsville’s example offers cautious optimism, showing how anticipating housing needs, liberalizing zoning, and prioritizing variety can help—but also that without targeted subsidies and vigilant planning, long-term affordability is hard to guarantee. The insights from planners and housing researchers illuminate not just local trends but nationwide urban dilemmas, hinting at solutions and recognizing the complexity of America’s affordability catch-22.