Can American cities grow AND stay affordable?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Indicator from Planet Money

Episode: Can American cities grow AND stay affordable?
Date: December 15, 2025
Hosts: Wayland Wong & Stephen Messaha
Guests: Rachel Ramos (Huntsville resident), Yonah Freemark (Urban Institute), Dennis Madsen (City of Huntsville Planning Manager)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the "affordability paradox" many American cities face: rapid growth fueled by low living costs can, over time, drive prices up, threatening the very affordability that attracted newcomers. Through the lens of Huntsville, Alabama—a city experiencing rapid expansion yet remaining relatively affordable—the hosts examine how urban planning, housing policy, and zoning reforms influence affordability and growth. The episode includes insights from local planners, residents, and housing researchers, drawing broader lessons from similar U.S. cities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Huntsville's Appeal & Resident Perspective

• Growth Stats: Huntsville is currently growing by about 18 new residents per day.
  (00:01, Stephen Messaha)
• Huntsville Attractions: Space and defense sector jobs, cultural amenities, and affordability draw people to the city.
  (00:17, Wayland Wong)
• Resident Experience: Rachel Ramos enjoys high quality of life and affordable housing—$1,250/month for a three-bedroom apartment, which she notes is less expensive than places she's lived in Montana and Florida.
  (00:34, Rachel Ramos)
• Concern Over Rising Prices: Rachel expresses concern about the longevity of affordability, observing that rapid expansion in previous cities she’s lived in led to price increases.

  “Just with any place that I've lived where there was a lot of expansion, prices tend to kind of go up.”
  — Rachel Ramos (01:21)

The Economic Paradox: Growth Threatens Affordability

• National Context: Huntsville homes are about 25% cheaper by square foot than the national average. However, this lower cost attracts people, which then risks raising prices—a classic urban economics paradox.
  (01:10, Wayland Wong)
• Historical Precedents: Austin, TX and Atlanta, GA are cited as cities where rapid growth, initially fueled by affordability and quality of life, eventually strained housing supply and drove up prices.

  “Austin is a great example of a community that went from relatively isolated... into suddenly a booming center of employment. And with that, there has been a vast increase in housing costs in that city.”
  — Yonah Freemark (03:25)

Policy Response: Planning Ahead in Huntsville

• Proactive Planning: Huntsville’s planning department anticipated housing pressures about ten years ago, recognizing the national housing shortage and acting early to increase supply.
  (04:47, Dennis Madsen)
• Massive Housing Build-out: Since 2020, the city has added 16,000 apartment units, with the broader North Alabama region building even more.

  “Since 2020, just within the city of Huntsville, we've put 16,000 apartment units on the ground.”
  — Dennis Madsen (05:22)

Southern Advantage: Space and Regulation

• More Room, Fewer Regulations: The South tends to build homes faster due to ample land and fewer restrictive building regulations, which haven’t hindered growth as much as in other regions.
  (05:40, Wayland Wong; 05:52, Stephen Messaha; 05:57, Dennis Madsen)

Diversification: The Importance of Housing Variety

• Diverse Housing Types: In land-constrained or built-out cities, planners recommend granting permits for a range of housing types—not just single-family homes, but also apartments and “missing middle” options like townhomes and quads.
  (06:18, Dennis Madsen; 06:25, Wayland Wong)
• Trickle-Down Affordability: Adding high-end apartments can help overall affordability by attracting higher-income residents to new units, thus preventing displacement in lower-rent buildings.

  “If those [expensive apartments] don't exist, then [wealthier renters] start to look... at apartment complexes that maybe had been providing affordability. ...they start pushing those folks out.”
  — Dennis Madsen (06:45)

• Missing Middle Housing: Explained as house-like structures divided into multiple units—more affordable than single-family homes but smaller-scale than large complexes. Many U.S. cities zoned these out of existence, a practice some planners are now working to reverse.
  (07:54, Dennis Madsen; 08:12, Stephen Messaha)

Barriers: Zoning Codes and Changing Family Needs

• Zoning Legacy: Many cities’ zoning codes were designed for mid-20th-century nuclear families, not today’s diverse households. This restricts construction of alternative housing types needed for affordability in the current era.
  (07:21, Dennis Madsen; 07:34, Wayland Wong)
• Efforts to Reform: Planners now advocate updating zoning laws to legalize diverse housing arrangements, including the “missing middle.”
  (08:31, Dennis Madsen)

Limits of Building Alone

• Role of Subsidies: Building market-rate housing alone is not enough for low-income residents; direct subsidies are necessary for inclusive affordability.

  “Low income people in the United States need additional subsidy to be able to afford quality homes in our communities.”
  — Yonah Freemark (08:51)

Rethinking Growth vs. Affordability

• Not Always a Conflict: Rising prices can reflect strong demand, which signals a city’s appeal. Growth and affordability are not absolute opposites; rather, trade-offs exist, and policy can shape outcomes.

  “Growth occurs because people see appeal in living in a certain place. ...People continue to want to move to those communities and see an overall benefit to the quality of life.”
  — Yonah Freemark (09:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rachel Ramos (Resident Perspective):

  “Compared to other places that I've lived, like Montana and Florida, I find it less expensive to live here.” (01:01)
  “I am concerned about it because just with any place that I've lived where there was a lot of expansion, prices tend to kind of go up.” (01:21)

• Yonah Freemark (Housing Researcher):

  “So you get stuck in this challenging loop that is difficult to get out of unless you have substantially higher rates of housing production.” (04:21)
  “Low income people in the United States need additional subsidy to be able to afford quality homes in our communities.” (08:51)
  “I don't necessarily think we should think of growth and affordability as in contrast to one another...” (09:09)

• Dennis Madsen (City Planner):

  “We are about 228 square miles, which is Chicago in terms of land area.” (05:57)
  “If those [expensive apartments] don't exist, then... they start pushing those folks out of the markets.” (06:45)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:01 – 01:21: Introduction, Huntsville’s appeal, and resident concerns about affordability
• 03:08 – 04:21: Guest Yonah Freemark on affordability paradox and the Austin example
• 04:40 – 05:22: Dennis Madsen on proactive housing planning in Huntsville
• 06:18 – 08:31: Diversification, missing middle housing, and zoning code barriers
• 08:51 – 09:43: Yonah Freemark on necessity of subsidies and rethinking the growth/affordability dichotomy

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Conclusion

The episode highlights the delicate policy balance city leaders must strike: promoting economic and residential growth without pricing out existing and future residents. Huntsville’s example offers cautious optimism, showing how anticipating housing needs, liberalizing zoning, and prioritizing variety can help—but also that without targeted subsidies and vigilant planning, long-term affordability is hard to guarantee. The insights from planners and housing researchers illuminate not just local trends but nationwide urban dilemmas, hinting at solutions and recognizing the complexity of America’s affordability catch-22.

Transcript

[Stephen Messaha]

Npr. Huntsville, Alabama is growing fast. About 18 people move there every day.

[Wayland Wong]

And you can see lots of reasons why. It's where the rocket that put the first man on the moon was developed. There are plenty of space and defense sector jobs, a big music venue, and in the center of town, there's an art museum and a pond where Rachel Ramos and her dog daughter Raina are feeding the ducks.

[Rachel Ramos]

See, it's only 25 cents for a cup of duck food. Yeah, I gotta get more duckies.

[Stephen Messaha]

25 cents might sound like a great price, but the price that really matters for Rachel is 1,250. That's how much she pays each month for a three bedroom apartment.

[Wayland Wong]

Three bedrooms. That is a steal.

[Stephen Messaha]

Yeah, I thought my two bedroom in Birmingham was cheap, but this is definitely a steal. And Rachel also thinks the city's pretty affordable.

[Rachel Ramos]

Compared to other places that I've lived, like Montana and Florida, I find it less expensive to live here.

[Wayland Wong]

The cost of homes in Huntsville by square foot is about 25% cheaper than it is nationally.

[Stephen Messaha]

But Rachel is worried about those good times and low prices lasting.

[Rachel Ramos]

I am concerned about it because just with any place that I've lived where there was a lot of expansion, prices tend to kind of go up.

[Wayland Wong]

This is an economic paradox that many cities face. One of the drivers of high prices is people moving to a city for low prices. This is the indicator from Planet Money. I'm Wayland Wong.

[Stephen Messaha]

And I'm Stephen Messaha. On today's show, we look at this conundrum. How a low cost of living can boost growth and how growth threatens a low cost of living.

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[Stephen Messaha]

To warbyparker.com this affordability catch 22 is not an easy problem to solve.

[Yonah Freemark]

It's very hard to win the national housing affordability. You know, rollerball.

[Stephen Messaha]

Yonah Freemark is a researcher with the Urban Institute. And there is one city in particular that tends to be like the poster child for this lower to higher cost flip flop.

[Yonah Freemark]

Austin is a great example of a community that went from relatively isolated, not particularly interesting at a national perspective, into suddenly a booming center of employment and interest in people moving in. So it has grown at enormous rates over the last decade or so. And with that, there has been a vast increase in housing costs in that city.

[Wayland Wong]

Austin grew so fast because it was seen as such a great place to live. Not only was it cheaper and had a ton of tech jobs, but also plenty of culture, from food to music.

[Stephen Messaha]

Over the last two decades, home prices have just about doubled nationally. In Austin, it's more than tripled. Austin prices have come down a bit recently, but they're still pretty high.

[Wayland Wong]

And Austin's not the only city that's dealt with this. Atlanta's another example of this growing population, growing costs problem.

[Yonah Freemark]

So you get stuck in this challenging loop that is difficult to get out of unless you have substantially higher rates of housing production.

[Wayland Wong]

But building a ton of houses takes time. So part of that challenge is predicting the need for all those houses early. City planners in Huntsville think they got that timing right. That's according to Dennis Madsen.

[Dennis Madsen]

I'm the manager of urban and long range planning for the city of Huntsville.

[Stephen Messaha]

So you're the man with the crystal ball.

[Dennis Madsen]

I don't know if there's such thing as crystal ball in the planning world. It's a lot of best guesses.

[Wayland Wong]

And Dennis says about 10 years ago, Huntsville's best guess was to prepare for an upcoming housing crisis, not because of anything specific to Huntsville, but because it was happening across the country.

[Stephen Messaha]

Yeah. One estimate puts the current housing shortfall at 2.8 million units. And that number has grown dramatically since 2013, when the housing crisis began.

[Dennis Madsen]

And that was a crystal ball. That was fairly clear because you were seeing it happen nationally that the housing crisis is a national crisis.

[Wayland Wong]

Dennis says recognizing the housing crisis early was a key way to start working.

[Dennis Madsen]

On encouraging building number one easily is supply. Just making sure that we're getting a lot of housing supply on the ground. Since 2020, just within the city of Huntsville, we've put 16,000 apartment units on the Ground. And that number is even larger when you look at our broader north Alabama.

[Wayland Wong]

The south in general has been building new homes way faster than the rest of the country. And a big reason for that is because the south has fewer building regulations. Sl down construction there also tends to.

[Stephen Messaha]

Be a lot more room to grow. That's definitely true in Huntsville. It's surrounded by lots of open land.

[Dennis Madsen]

We are about 228 square miles, which is Chicago in terms of land area.

[Stephen Messaha]

Let's say I'm city planner of Stephenville and I'm surrounded by all these other cities. I don't have the option to grow, to build more houses. What do you say to me when I come to asking you for advice?

[Dennis Madsen]

Yeah, that's. I think if you can't, obviously add a lot. I think one of the keys is diversifying.

[Wayland Wong]

By diversifying, he means building different kinds of homes. Last year, the city granted permits to build 900 traditional houses, but also 1400 apartments and 200 townhomes.

[Stephen Messaha]

Yeah, and making cheaper apartments to keep costs down does make sense. But Dennis also says even expensive apartments going up actually make the city more affordable.

[Dennis Madsen]

What that means is that people who can afford those are moving into those. If those don't exist, then they start to look downstream and they start looking at apartment complexes that are existing, that maybe those complexes had been providing affordability. But because there's nowhere else for folks who are willing to pay, you know, $2,000 for a unit, they'll start looking at units that are less expensive, and they start pushing those folks out of the markets.

[Stephen Messaha]

Who's sitting here. This doesn't sound too difficult. Have a variety of houses and have a lot of them. Why is this so hard? And so many cities have struggled with this, that have been growing.

[Dennis Madsen]

I think a lot of cities struggle only because in the last half century, a lot of our zoning codes were built to support a certain type of housing. And really that's where the market was.

[Wayland Wong]

Dennis says zoning laws were all about encouraging single family homes for that classic nuclear family.

[Stephen Messaha]

But compared to, say, like, you know, the 1950s, there are a lot more different types of families today, like single parent households, grandparents raising kids, adults with no kids. And they might not want that classic big house with their front yard or even be able to afford it.

[Dennis Madsen]

But our zoning hasn't always said, yeah, you can, you can build what's frequently termed as missing middle housing. A lot of stuff that used to be everywhere around America that you can see in some of your older neighborhoods. You can see these quads, quads okay.

[Wayland Wong]

As a Midwesterner, I'm not sure I know what this kind of housing is.

[Stephen Messaha]

Yeah, they're a lot more common in the south, at least from what I've seen. Like, picture what looks like a house but divided into four separate units. That is a quad. They're bigger and more expensive than a sprawling apartment complex, but cheaper than a single family home. That's the missing middle Dennis is talking.

[Dennis Madsen]

About frequently in many cities got zoned out of existence. And there's a tremendous number of planners both in the public and private sector who are working to kind of reinforce, reestablish codes and regulations that allow for that diversity of housing.

[Wayland Wong]

But cities need more than expensive fancy apartments, at least according to Yonah Freemark.

[Yonah Freemark]

With the Urban Institute, that is not enough to support low income people. The reality is that low income people in the United States need additional subsidy to be able to afford quality homes in our communities.

[Stephen Messaha]

Yonah also says rising home prices should not always be seen as this terrible outcome.

[Yonah Freemark]

I don't necessarily think we should think of growth and affordability as in contrast to one another because growth occurs because people see appeal in living in a certain place. If there are really high costs of living in a certain place, it's probably because a lot of people want to live there. That's the case for places like Manhattan or San Francisco. People continue to want to move to those communities and see an overall benefit to the quality of life that comes with the costs of those places.

[Wayland Wong]

Huntsville is definitely still growing. President Trump is moving Space Command from Colorado to Huntsville and that will bring well more than 1,000 jobs.

[Stephen Messaha]

And while there might be no such thing as a crystal ball in city planning, Dennis Madsen is predicting a future where Huntsville defies the odds and remains affordable. This episode was produced by Julia Ritchie with engineering by Robert Rodriguez. It was fact checked by Sierra Juarez. Cait Concannon is the show's editor. The indicator is production of npr.

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