Podcast Summary

The Indicator from Planet Money

Episode: Cobalt-free batteries reign in Chinese EVs. Why not the US?
Date: August 20, 2025
Hosts: Darian Woods, Wayland Wong
Featured Guests: Henry Sanderson (Author), Mujeeb Ijaz (ONE), Charles Poon (Ford)

Overview

This episode explores the global shift away from cobalt-based batteries in electric vehicles (EVs), focusing on China's rapid adoption of cobalt-free lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries and questioning why the United States lags behind. The discussion traces humanitarian concerns tied to cobalt mining, technological breakthroughs, government policies, and the evolving business strategies of both Chinese and American automakers.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Problem with Cobalt

[00:12–01:06]

• Cobalt in batteries: Cobalt is a stabilizer in lithium batteries, commonly found in phones, laptops, and EVs.
• Drawbacks: Cobalt is expensive and raises significant ethical concerns due to mining practices, especially child labor and unsafe working conditions in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC).
  • Quote (Henry Sanderson, 00:45):
    “A lot of the cobalt was mined by hand by individual laborers, often including children...”

2. The Alternative: Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP)

[01:06–01:47]

• History: LFP batteries have existed since the 1990s but were initially deemed inferior due to lower capacity ("range anxiety").
• By 2020: Cobalt-based batteries dominated, seen as the future for EVs.

3. A Turning Point: Humanitarian & Safety Concerns

[03:12–03:44]

• Risks in the DRC: The mining process is hazardous and often lethal.
  • Quote (Henry Sanderson, 03:29):
    “Soon after Isaiah, there was a big cave in and lots of people lost their lives.”
• Battery fires: Cobalt batteries also posed serious safety risks during storage and transport.

4. China's Strategic Shift

[04:06–06:15]

• Business leader vision: BYD's founder, Wang Chuanfu, championed LFP for its safety and potential lower costs, betting on it early despite industry skepticism.
• Government policy as a catalyst:
  • Pre-2020: Subsidies favored cobalt for its higher capacity.
  • Post-2020: Subsidies prioritized affordability, driving demand for iron phosphate.
• Technical innovation: BYD and battery giant CATL improved LFP battery design—integrating packs into car frames to increase energy density.
  • Quote (Henry Sanderson, 05:51):
    “This was taking an existing chemistry and really improving it.”
• Result: By 2025, LFP batteries power around 80% of new Chinese EVs.

5. The US Response: Playing Catch-Up

[06:15–09:41]

• Slow adoption: In 2024, less than 10% of American EVs used LFP batteries.
• Emerging innovators:
  • Mujeeb Ijaz, founder of ONE (Our Next Energy), advocates LFP in the US, building on Chinese advancements and achieving over 400 miles range.
  • Quote (Mujeeb Ijaz, 07:03):
    “That’s actually the way in which technology has always evolved... we’ve seen how a step leads to a second step...”
• Ford’s move: Announced production of cobalt-free EVs in Kentucky, drawing on techniques pioneered by BYD and CATL, and licensing technology from CATL.
  • Ford’s investment: $2 billion to refit the Louisville factory.

6. Why Not Use American Battery Tech?

[08:13–09:41]

• Business over humanitarianism: US companies stress cost-effectiveness and scalability, not ethics, as the prime motivator for switching.
• License choices: Ford chose CATL’s tech for its maturity and capacity, despite domestic startups like ONE existing.
  • Quote (Charles Poon, Ford, 08:35):
    “One is being able to select a chemistry in this particular case... second is to be able to drive the scale...”

7. The Ongoing Race & Irony

[09:41–10:20]

• Sourcing tech: Ford’s decision raises questions about US dependence on Chinese battery technology.
• Global progress: Mujeeb Ijaz is working with BMW—ironically, BMW’s early gamble on CATL (back in the 2010s) led to CATL’s current dominance.
  • Quote (Darian Woods, 10:05):
    “BMW has a track record here... That company was CATL, now the world’s largest EV battery maker.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On DRC mining dangers:
  “Soon after Isaiah, there was a big cave in and lots of people lost their lives.” — Henry Sanderson [03:29]
• On BYD’s visionary pursuit:
  “Even in 2002... he thought that LFP lithium ion phosphate batteries were the way to go.” — Henry Sanderson [04:16]
• On technological evolution:
  “I think actually that’s human progress. That’s actually the way in which technology has always evolved...” — Mujeeb Ijaz [07:03]
• On Ford’s supplier choice:
  “One is being able to select a chemistry... second is to be able to drive the scale...” — Charles Poon [08:35]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:12] – Introduction to cobalt in batteries
• [00:45] – Human cost: mining in the Congo
• [01:47] – The “race” between cobalt and LFP batteries
• [03:12] – Humanitarian tragedies and safety risks
• [04:16] – BYD’s early commitment to LFP
• [05:15] – China’s policy pivot and the LFP breakthrough
• [06:15] – China’s market transformation
• [06:47] – US startup ONE’s efforts and the challenge to catch up
• [07:37] – Ford’s recent announcement and reliance on CATL tech
• [09:13] – Ford’s approach to supply chain innovation
• [09:52] – BMW’s early bet on CATL and the cyclical nature of tech leadership

Conclusion

The transition away from cobalt-based batteries—propelled by humanitarian, safety, and cost concerns—is rapidly remaking the global EV industry. China’s decisive bet on LFP batteries has granted it a commanding lead, leaving the US to adopt innovation and technology already proven overseas. The episode ends pondering the future: will American battery technology catch up or will the US continue to rely on Chinese advancements as the world shifts toward more ethical, scalable, and safe EV batteries?