Dealmaker Don v. Tariff Man Trump

Summary

Summary of "Dealmaker Don v. Tariff Man Trump" Episode of The Indicator from Planet Money

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Indicator from Planet Money
• Host/Author: NPR
• Episode: Dealmaker Don v. Tariff Man Trump
• Release Date: April 23, 2025

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Introduction

In the April 23, 2025 episode of The Indicator from Planet Money, hosts Darian Woods and Waylon Wong delve into the complex persona of former President Donald Trump, specifically focusing on his use of tariffs. The episode titled "Dealmaker Don v. Tariff Man Trump" explores whether Trump's implementation of tariffs is a strategic bargaining tool or a permanent fixture in his economic policy. Through discussions with Trump biographer Mark Fisher and an analysis of Trump's historical and psychological motivations, the episode provides a comprehensive examination of Trump's approach to trade and negotiation.

The Dual Persona of Donald Trump: Dealmaker Don vs. Tariff Man Trump

Dealmaker Don: The Negotiator

Darian Woods introduces the concept of "Dealmaker Don," portraying Trump as a savvy negotiator shaped by his early experiences. Trump’s childhood, spent shadowing his father Roy Trump in Brooklyn and Queens, collecting rents and navigating political clubs, ingrained in him the art of deal-making. This foundation is further solidified through his association with Roy Cohn, a notorious fixer whose aggressive tactics influenced Trump’s strategic approach.

Notable Quote:

"Dealmaker Don and tariff lover Don, they're both the same guy. The answer is yes to both and no to both. And that's not the way he thinks about things." – Unknown Host [00:31]

Mark Fisher elaborates on how Trump's adherence to Roy Cohn's three rules of winning—attack, admit nothing, deny everything, and never admit defeat—shapes his relentless pursuit of victory in every deal, regardless of actual outcomes.

Tariff Man Trump: The Protectionist

Contrasting "Dealmaker Don" is "Tariff Man Trump," representing Trump's inclination towards using tariffs as a tool for economic protection and asserting American dominance. The episode traces Trump's tariff-focused mindset back to the 1970s and 80s when the U.S. faced significant trade deficits with Japan, particularly in the auto industry. Trump's perception of these deficits as national humiliations led him to advocate for levying tariffs to bolster American manufacturing and reduce dependency on foreign goods.

Notable Quotes:

"We should have a surplus, not a deficit." – Donald Trump [06:09]

"Other nations got rich and powerful, much of it at our expense. But now it's our turn to prosper..." – Donald Trump [06:31]

These statements, spanning from an interview with Larry King in 1987 to his tariff announcements in April of the current year, illustrate a consistent thread in Trump's economic philosophy centered around trade balance and national prosperity.

Analyzing Trump's Tariff Strategy

Bargaining Chip vs. Permanent Policy

The central question the episode addresses is whether Trump's tariffs serve as temporary bargaining chips in trade negotiations or represent a long-term shift in U.S. economic policy. Through Fisher's insights, it becomes evident that Trump's approach is not purely based on economic theory but is deeply rooted in his psychological makeup and personal instincts.

Notable Quote:

"Trump's way of thinking about the world... is always grounded in the attitudes that he formed in his youth..." – Unknown Host [06:50]

This perspective suggests that Trump's tariff policies are less about strategic economic maneuvering and more about maintaining a constant state of conflict to stay in the public eye, thereby reinforcing his image as a strong leader who can declare victory in every scenario.

The Psychological Underpinnings

Mark Fisher emphasizes that Trump's actions are motivated by a need to remain at the center stage, creating new conflicts to perpetually assert his dominance. This approach aligns with his upbringing and the aggressive deal-making environment he was part of from an early age. Trump's advisors have presented multiple justifications for tariffs, ranging from protecting American industries to punishing foreign competitors, but Fisher posits that the underlying driver is Trump's psychological need for constant engagement and victory.

Notable Quotes:

"You can always just call it victory. It doesn't matter whether it's a loss versus we're gonna stand fast and do the tough things..." – Unknown Host [08:10]

"Above all of those, he's just doing it because he needs to be in the spotlight..." – Unknown Host [08:27]

These insights highlight the multifaceted nature of Trump's tariff policies, blending economic strategies with personal psychological needs.

Case Study: Trump's Legal Tactics

The episode briefly touches upon Trump's legal strategies, particularly his penchant for suing opponents not necessarily to win cases but to dismantle adversaries. Mark Fisher shares an anecdote illustrating this tendency:

Notable Quote:

"He doesn't do it to win, he does it to destroy them." – Mark Fisher [09:33]

This behavior underscores Trump's combative approach, further complicating the understanding of his tariff policies as either strategic or inherently defensive.

Conclusion

"Dealmaker Don v. Tariff Man Trump" offers a nuanced exploration of Donald Trump's use of tariffs, framing it within the broader context of his personality, upbringing, and psychological drive for dominance. By dissecting Trump's dual roles as both a negotiator and a protectionist, the episode underscores the complexity of his economic policies and their roots in his lifelong approach to business and power. While tariffs may serve as both bargaining chips and permanent measures, the driving force behind them appears to be Trump's intrinsic need to assert control and remain a central figure in economic and political discourse.

Final Thoughts: The episode concludes by promising further insights into whether Trump's tariff strategies will evolve or remain steadfast, inviting listeners to continue exploring the intricacies of his economic legacy.

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Produced by Angel Carreras with engineering by Kwesi Lee. Fact-tracked by Tyler Jones. Cake and Cannon edited the show. The Indicator is a production of NPR.

Transcript

[Unknown Host]

Npr.

[Darian Woods]

This is the indicator from Planet Money. I'm Darian Woods.

[Waylon Wong]

And I'm Waylon Wong. Throughout President Donald Trump's career, he's held all kinds of positions on taxes and social issues. One constant, though, has been tariffs.

[Darian Woods]

He talked about tariffs a lot during his campaign, so it wasn't surprising that he followed through on tariffs. As president, we what was surprising to the world was the scale of those tariffs. Announced in early April, global markets plummeted.

[Waylon Wong]

And the fundamental question everyone's trying to understand is, are the tariffs a bargaining chip or are they here permanently?

[Darian Woods]

Is the president dealmaker Don or tariff man Trump?

[Waylon Wong]

Inside the president is two wolves. We go all the way back to Trump's childhood to try to figure out which one's in charge.

[Darian Woods]

My conversation with the Trump biographer after the break.

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[Darian Woods]

Washington Post journalist Mark Fisher co wrote a biography of Donald Trump. So we hoped he could help us figure out that fundamental question. Were we seeing dealmaker Don with tariffs simply being a bargaining chip, or are we seeing Tariffman Trump, someone who wants tariffs here to stay?

[Unknown Host]

Okay, so dealmaker Don and tariff lover Don, they're both the same guy. The answer is yes to both and no to both. And that's not the way he thinks about things. And that is the way he thinks about things.

[Darian Woods]

Okay, this is an enigma wrapped in a riddle with a mystery involved.

[Unknown Host]

Except that he's actually a very simple person. And if you look at these issues not as an economist, not as a journalist, but as a Guy who trusts his gut, knows very little, studies not at all, and is averse to taking advice from almost everyone and who wants to just win on every occasion, then you start to see a different kind of reasoning.

[Darian Woods]

So first, let's hear the argument in favor of dealmaker Don. If this archetype is winning, a lot of the tariffs may soon be lifted.

[Unknown Host]

Dealmaker Don is someone who has been around since his childhood. From his very early days, Donald wandered around Brooklyn and Queens with his father collecting rents. On Saturdays and Sundays, they would go door to door collecting rent from people who were maybe a little bit behind, and he heard his father cutting deals left and right. Donald also went around with his father to all the political clubs, and this was a room full of dealmakers. Bret Trump was somebody who could both give them something and who needed something from them. Fast forward a little bit to when he goes into business by himself and he runs into some trouble, and he seeks the help of Roy Cohn.

[Darian Woods]

Roy Cohn, the famous New York fixer brought to life last year in the biopic the Apprentice by actor Jeremy Strong.

[Mark Fisher]

Roy Cohn's three rules of winning. The first rule is the simplest. Attack, attack, attack. Rule 2. Admit nothing, deny everything. Rule 3. This is the most important rule of all. No matter what happens, no matter what they say about you, no matter how beaten you are, you claim victory and never admit defeat. Never admit defeat.

[Unknown Host]

So these kind of basic rules of Trump guided his way through what he saw as life is a battle, and life is a series of deals, and you either win them or you're a loser. So he has this checkered history of successes and failures, but what he learned to do is to always sell every one of those moments as a victory. And so dealmaker Don is someone who by definition, cannot lose because he will always say that he won.

[Darian Woods]

Now, I want to go to Tariffman Trump. What's the evidence that the terrorists might be here to stay? Because Trump, in his own words, is a tariff man.

[Unknown Host]

He became a tariff man back in the 1970s and 80s when the United States was suffering from a real trade deficit with Japan, especially in the auto industry. This was a time when the US Seemed to be losing out in so many areas of manufacturing steel, cars. And so Donald Trump saw the US as being humiliated around the world by these foreign competitors. And he thought that the way to get around that was by leveling tariffs on these countries.

[Darian Woods]

I just want to play a clip from an old interview.

[Donald Trump]

We should have a surplus, not a deficit.

[Darian Woods]

This is Donald Trump with Larry King. In 1987.

[Donald Trump]

You can call it a tax, you can call it whatever you want to call it, but those countries should be paying us major billions of dollars and you won't have any deficits whatsoever. And then we'll be able to help the poor.

[Darian Woods]

And here's Trump speaking in early April of this year, announcing the huge global tariffs.

[Donald Trump]

Other nations got rich and powerful, much of it at our expense. But now it's our turn to prosper, and in so doing, use trillions and trillions of dollars to reduce our taxes and pay down our national debt. And it'll all happen very quickly.

[Darian Woods]

What are your thoughts about those two clips?

[Unknown Host]

Same guy, Same guy, many years later. Trump's way of thinking about the world, of thinking about political issues, is always grounded in the attitudes that he formed in his youth, in his early days as a developer. He's a man who very much pines for the America that once was, at least in his fantasy or his memory of his early years. And tariffs is one of those one word solutions that he likes to latch onto. So what we've seen in recent weeks is this strange drama in which, on the one hand, he says, these are permanent tariffs. This is how we're going to turn our economy around. Except that every time things get tough because of that, prices soar, stocks fall, foreign countries rebel, Trump backs away. So this is the clash of two essential core qualities of Donald Trump. Always make the deal, even if it means caving in. You can always just call it victory. It doesn't matter whether it's a loss versus we're gonna stand fast and do the tough things, which is how he won elections, by selling that idea.

[Darian Woods]

When I listen to these two clips, I hear a running thread that the US Is a victim, whether it's defense spending, trade deficits, government deficits, or private business interests. It's kind of this combined big ball of grievance.

[Unknown Host]

Absolutely. And so when his advisors go out and give all, Are there conflicting explanations of why we're doing this? Are we doing this to make foreign goods more expensive so that we can build up our American manufacturing sector, or are we doing this simply to punish other countries and establish American dominance around the world? Yes, all of those. But above all of those, he's just doing it because he needs to be in the spotlight, center stage every day and there needs to be a new conflict every day so that he can then declare victory in that conflict. I think in most things, Trump is not to be found in political science or economics. Rather, it's to be found in psychology in a study of the instincts that he has ridden all the way from Queens, New York to the White House.

[Darian Woods]

And Mark Fisher's not just talking from research. When he was writing that biography of Trump, Mark dealt firsthand with how Trump operates.

[Unknown Host]

We got to talking a little bit about how and why he sues people, and he said that he doesn't do it to win, he does it to destroy them. He said, if it's a bad book, I'm going to come after you. So I said, well, you already told us that you are not going to read the book, so how will you know if it's a bad book? And he said, people will tell me.

[Darian Woods]

The book Trump Revealed came out in 2016. Trump posted that it was bad, but maybe because he was distracted by his presidential campaign, there wasn't any lawsuit. Tomorrow, more answers to that fundamental question on whether the Trump tariffs are a negotiating tactic or here to stay. To do that, we'll take a closer look at how they're being explained by his advisors. This episode was produced by Angel Carreras with engineering by Kwesi Lee. It was facttracked by Tyler Jones. Cake and Cannon edits the show and the indicator is a production of npr.

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