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on the therapist, or during the weekend.

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So I think that's what we need

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to tell the parents.

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Waylon Wong (2:53)

risk of loss the debate over how to make school lunches healthier isn't new. You might remember former first lady Michelle Obama's push to get kids to eat more veggies more than 15 years ago.

Julia Richie (3:06)

Yes, I remember she enlisted Elmo to help.

Angela McLaughlin (3:08)

So how do you guys feel about

Waylon Wong (3:11)

getting kids pumped up and excited about eating healthy?

Julia Richie (3:14)

Oh, well, it's wonderful.

Angela McLaughlin (3:15)

Elmo loves healthy foods that Emma thinks

Waylon Wong (3:18)

that fruits and vegetables are delicious. As part of her efforts, the U.S. department of Agriculture did a major overhaul of its school lunch guidelines in 2010, putting limits on calories and reducing fat and sodium, and the Biden administration released a big Update again in 2024.

Julia Richie (3:36)

But it takes a while for these changes to make their way to school trays. For example, schools this year now have to limit added sugar and milk, stick cereal and yogurt. By 2027, they'll have a weekly limit of the amount of calories that come from added sugars for all breakfasts and lunch.

Waylon Wong (3:55)

This is the sound of school lunch at Johns Island Elementary School near Charleston, South Carolina. Like most public schools, they participate in the National School Lunch Program, which reimburses them per pupil.

Julia Richie (4:07)

Lunch starts at 11am Kids go through the line in single file and get to choose their lunch. Like, can I ask you what you

Waylon Wong (4:14)

got to eat today?

Julia Richie (4:16)

I have teriyaki chicken with rice.

Waylon Wong (4:21)

What other kinds of lunches do you like to get here?

Angela McLaughlin (4:24)

Pizza, macaroni and chicken nuggets.

Waylon Wong (4:28)

Ah, the holy trinity of school lunches. At John's island they have a hot meal option today. It's orange or teriyaki chicken with broccoli. Then there's what's called the cold option of a PB and J uncrustable and a pack of goldfish crackers, which another kid named Jackson was drawn to.

Angela McLaughlin (4:45)

I might just get some of this

Julia Richie (4:47)

cold lunch right over here because it has goldfish.

Angela McLaughlin (4:52)

Cause goldfish is so good.

Waylon Wong (4:55)

Goldfish is so good.

Julia Richie (4:56)

Plus one Goldfish is so good. I have a Costco sized box of it in my pantry. They even have a salad bar, which Angela McLaughlin is especially proud of. She's executive director of nutrition services for the region's schools.

Angela McLaughlin (5:10)

It's really exciting when you see a five or six year old gravitating toward a side salad instead of corn.

Waylon Wong (5:19)

On any given day, Charleston county is serving about 16,000 kids for breakfast and 30,000 students for lunch across about 80 schools.

Angela McLaughlin (5:28)

It's not what people remember we're running 80 restaurants every single day and we're serving a great breakfast and a really wonderful lunch every single day.

Waylon Wong (5:38)

We Their meal program is self operating. It's funded through a combination of reimbursements from the federal government and special sales, not its general operating fund for the school district. And that means every penny counts for

Julia Richie (5:50)

a student who qualifies for free lunch. The USDA will reimburse Angeles schools up to $4.71 per lunch. The rate is less for children who pay full price. It's only 44 cents per lunch. When Angela creates their meal plans for the year, she wants their cost per meal to come in lower, ideally around $2.50.

Angela McLaughlin (6:11)

When you're looking at your budget overall, you're looking at 40 to 45% on your food and supplies, and then you're looking at 40 to 45% for labor and staffing. And then the rest is indirect cost, direct costs, things like that.

Julia Richie (6:28)

In order to get those federal dollars, schools have to follow the USDA's Dietary Guidelines. They must provide kids a fruit, a vegetable, a protein, a whole grain and milk. Although they can't require kids to eat, in Charleston, kids have to pick three out of five components and one has to be a fruit or vegetable.

Waylon Wong (6:48)

The key here, Angela says, is they're giving students options. She says this system teaches kids to cultivate their palates. It also cuts down on food waste and lowers food costs for the school.

Angela McLaughlin (6:58)

We're not just saying here's your trade, take everything on it. We're letting them pick and then that affords them more buy in to the process and they can get what they want. So that really does impact the the food cost.

Waylon Wong (7:10)

On the day we visited, the price of that hot plate of chicken, brown rice, broccoli and fruit cost about $1.64, well within their budget. But other times the district splurges like at over $3. Bone in chicken wings do not come in under budget. So the district serves that with other less expensive things to average out costs.

Julia Richie (7:29)

And remember, like we said earlier, it takes a long time for new guidelines to go into effect. As the Biden administration's rules are still playing out, the Trump administration is suggesting new ones. Among the proposals, increasing protein portions, reducing the number of ultra processed foods, and putting an emphasis on making more foods from scratch instead of reheating items.

Waylon Wong (7:51)

Diane Pratt Hevner with the School Nutrition association is skeptical. Her group represents 50,000 K through 12 nutrition workers, including Charleston's.

Angela McLaughlin (8:00)

Schools have for a long time been trying to increase the amount of scratch and fresh prepared foods that they're serving students. But they're very limited in terms of budgets, staffing, equipment and infrastructure. So they will always rely on food companies to supply some of the items that they're offering with school meals.

Waylon Wong (8:22)

Nearly 900 school districts and school nutrition professionals wrote an open letter to the administration this month with their concerns. It's not just the funding for upgrading kitchens. They're also worried about how the new Trump administration guidelines focus on costly meat but limit fiber.

Julia Richie (8:40)

Furthermore, Diane says school lunches often get a bad rap, but that's an outdated stereotype.

Angela McLaughlin (8:45)

You know, schools are already meeting these calorie sodium added sugar and fat limits, so they've done a lot of the work. And there's research showing that school meals are actually the healthiest meals that Americans are eating today because they're already meeting these standards.

Waylon Wong (9:03)

We emailed the USDA to ask about rising costs and if schools could see a bump in those reimbursements. A spokesperson said these rates are adjusted annually and keep pace with food costs.

Julia Richie (9:13)

School districts are doing a lot to increase healthy foods on their own. Like Angela in Charleston says, they do something called speed scratch with pre made and fresh ingredients for the rotini sauce.

Waylon Wong (9:24)

But even if they do make more food from scratch, kids may not want it. Ask any parent. It takes some convincing to get them to try new things. Angela says that's her biggest challenge to keeping kids healthy and fed in 2026.

Angela McLaughlin (9:36)

I think it's keeping them engaged and making sure that we are treating them as the very intelligent consumers they are.

Waylon Wong (9:47)

Waylon I tried the orange chicken at John's island and it was pretty good, I'm not gonna lie.

Julia Richie (9:53)

Did you get the little milk cartons too?

Waylon Wong (9:55)

Oh, I swiped two chocolate milks. Some habits die hard. No one else was taking milk, so I was like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna help myself here.

Julia Richie (10:05)

This episode was produced by Vito Emanuel and Engine. Robert Rodriguez was fact checked by Sierra Juarez. Kicking Cannon is the show's editor and the indicator is a production of npr.

Waylon Wong (10:26)

This message comes from NPR sponsor Charles Schwab with its original podcast on Investing. Each week you'll get thoughtful in depth analysis of both the stock and the bond markets. Listen today and subscribe@schwab.com oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.

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