Federal hiring is about to get the Trump treatment

Summary

Summary of "Federal Hiring is About to Get the Trump Treatment"

The Indicator from Planet Money episode titled "Federal Hiring is About to Get the Trump Treatment," released on January 29, 2025, delves into the complexities of the federal government's hiring processes and the potential reforms under the Trump administration. Hosted by Adrienne Ma and Darian Woods, the episode features insights from Jennifer Palke, a senior fellow at the Niskanen Center with extensive experience in government reform.

---

1. The Federal Workforce: A Vast and Diverse Employer

Adrienne Ma opens the discussion by highlighting the significance of the federal government as the nation's largest employer outside the military, boasting a workforce of approximately 3 million civilians (00:12). Darian Woods enumerates the variety of roles within this workforce, ranging from clerks and nurses to engineers, lawyers, janitors, welders, park rangers, postal workers, and even bakers (00:20 – 00:33). This diversity underscores the complexity and scale of federal employment.

---

2. Trump's Agenda to Reshape Federal Hiring

Adrienne Ma outlines President Trump's intentions to "shrink and reshape" the federal workforce. Recent actions include offering buyouts to employees unwilling to return to office settings and issuing new orders such as a hiring freeze and prioritizing job seekers "passionate about the ideals of our American republic" (00:39 – 01:10). These moves have sparked controversy, causing turmoil within various agencies, yet some view them as potential opportunities for systemic change.

---

3. Historical Context: From Spoils to Meritocracy

Darian Woods provides a historical backdrop, referencing the "spoils system," where government jobs were awarded based on political loyalty rather than merit (03:21). This practice was dismantled with the Pendleton Act of 1883, mandating that government positions be filled based on qualifications. The Civil Service Reform Act of 1978 further entrenched merit-based hiring. However, Jennifer Palke notes that despite these reforms, the implementation has been far from optimal (04:10).

---

4. The Flaws in the Current Hiring Process

Jennifer Palke critiques the existing federal hiring mechanisms, emphasizing the over-reliance on mechanical resume screenings. She states, “If you're in the regular competitive hiring process, 90% of those really rely just on the HR manager doing a resume screen, which involves looking for the exact language that's in the job description on the candidate's resume” (04:23 – 04:49). This rigidity leads to a skewed applicant pool, where resumes are often templated to match job descriptions precisely, allowing unqualified candidates to advance (05:11 – 05:38).

Palke further explains that the self-assessment questionnaires sent to candidates allow those adept at "gaming the process" to inflate their competencies, resulting in qualified individuals being overlooked and the hiring process restarting due to inadequate candidate quality (05:38 – 06:02). She asserts, “There's so many wonderful civil servants that it is not that we don't get good people. It's that the process makes it very hard to get good people and puts a huge burden on those who are trying to do the hiring” (06:02 – 06:20).

---

5. Trump's Proposals: A Step Towards Reform or Regression?

The hosts examine President Trump's proposed changes to the federal hiring process, including prioritizing candidates "passionate about the ideals of our American republic" (07:42 – 08:09). Jennifer Palke expresses skepticism about the practicality and clarity of such criteria, questioning how "passion for the ideals of the American republic" can be objectively assessed (08:09 – 08:32). She warns that this vagueness could pave the way for political loyalty tests, undermining the independence and meritocracy of the civil service (08:32 – 08:55).

Palke emphasizes the importance of maintaining a merit-based system to avoid reverting to corruption and favoritism reminiscent of the spoils system (08:55 – 09:06).

---

6. Opportunities for Improvement Under New Leadership

Despite the criticisms, Palke identifies potential opportunities for meaningful reform. With Scott Cooper, a partner from Andreessen Horowitz, heading the Office of Personnel Management (OPM), there is hope for streamlining the hiring process. Palke suggests that Cooper could introduce flexibility, allowing hiring managers more discretion and incorporating expertise from relevant fields into interviews, akin to practices in the private sector (09:06 – 09:31).

She envisions a future where the hiring system is less rigid and more efficient, stating, “If we can get rid of some of the, you know, very overly strict policies that try to not use any judgment at all in the hiring and diminish some of the possible downsides, we could really end up, frankly, with a better hiring system at the end of these four years” (09:51 – 10:07).

---

7. Conclusion: A Pivotal Moment for Federal Hiring

The episode concludes on a cautiously optimistic note, recognizing the challenges within the federal hiring process while acknowledging the potential for positive change under the current administration. The hosts humorously reflect on their own performance, encapsulating the episode's blend of informative discussion and engaging dialogue.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Jennifer Palke on the inefficiency of current hiring processes:

  “There's so many wonderful civil servants that it is not that we don't get good people. It's that the process makes it very hard to get good people and puts a huge burden on those who are trying to do the hiring.” (06:02)

• On the potential misuse of vague hiring criteria:

  “Imagine trying to implement that language on the ground. What are you actually doing to test for passion for the ideals of the American republic?” (08:18)

• Jennifer Palke on the hope for reform:

  “If we can get rid of some of the, you know, very overly strict policies that try to not use any judgment at all in the hiring and diminish some of the possible downsides, we could really end up, frankly, with a better hiring system at the end of these four years.” (10:07)

---

This episode of The Indicator provides a comprehensive analysis of the federal hiring landscape, highlighting longstanding issues and the potential ramifications of recent administrative changes. Through expert insights and critical evaluation, it sheds light on the delicate balance between maintaining a merit-based civil service and navigating political influences in government employment practices.

Transcript

[NPR Announcer]

Npr.

[Adrienne Ma]

The federal government is the largest employer in the country, not counting the military. The federal civil Service employs around 3 million people.

[Darian Woods]

We're talking clerks, nurses, engineers, lawyers, janitors.

[Adrienne Ma]

Welders, park rangers and postal workers. And get this, Darin, I just learned this today. The federal government even employs bakers.

[Darian Woods]

I know where to get my government bread from there. And so the basic picture is the federal workforce is massive.

[Adrienne Ma]

It's also a workforce President Trump really wants to shrink and reshape. Yesterday, he offered buyouts to workers who don't want to go back to the office. And last week, he issued a bunch of new orders, including a hiring freeze and a plan to prioritize job seekers who are, quote, passionate about the ideals of our American republic, unquote. And while Trump's actions have drawn criticism and thrown some agencies into chaos, some argue that there's actually an opportunity here. This is the indicator from Planet Money. I'm Adrienne Ma.

[Darian Woods]

And I'm Darian Woods. Today on the show, we talk with Jennifer Palke. She's a senior fellow at the Niskanen center who has spent years thinking and writing and doing government reform. She also served as deputy chief technology officer under President Obama, and she was an advisor to the Defense Department during President Trump's first term. After the break, she will explain why, in her view, government hiring has been broken for a long time and what she thinks about Trump's current proposals to fix it.

[NPR Announcer]

This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

[Advertisement Announcer]

This message comes from Schwab. At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices. You can invest and trade on your own plus get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs. With award winning service, low costs and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab. Visit schwab.com to learn more. This message comes from Capital One. Say hello to stress free subscription management, easily track, block or cancel recurring charges right from the Capital One mobile app. Simple as that. Learn more at Capital1.com Subscriptions, terms and conditions apply. This message comes from Instacart. This cold and flu season, Instacart is here to help deliver all of your sick day essentials. Whether you're in prevention mode and need vitamins, hand sanitizer, and that lemon tea your nana swears by. Or you're in healing mode and need medicine, soup and a lot more tissues. Simply download the Instacart app to get sick day supplies that reinvigorate or relieve the Delivered in as fast as 30 minutes. Plus enjoy. $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Excludes restaurant orders, service fees and terms apply.

[Darian Woods]

So we all know the saying, it's not what you know, but it's who you know. And for a good chunk of this country's history, that was essentially how government jobs were filled. It was called the spoils system.

[Adrienne Ma]

Yeah, as in to the victor go the spoils. And under this system, whoever won the presidential election doled out plum government jobs to their family and friends and their supporters. And this started to change in 1883 when Congress passed a law called the Pendleton Act. So the Pendleton act required government jobs be awarded on the basis of merit. And this whole merit based approach was later reinforced by the Civil Service Reform act of 1978. Jennifer Palka of the Niskanen center says that law, which emphasized hiring qualified people over cronies, had the right idea, but.

[Jennifer Palka]

The way that it has been implemented over the years has been definitely suboptimal.

[Darian Woods]

The suboptimalness, Jennifer says, starts from the very first step in the hiring process.

[Jennifer Palka]

If you're in the regular competitive hiring process, 90% of those really rely just on the HR manager doing a resume screen, which involves looking for the exact language that's in the job description on the candidate's resume. And so the closer that is, often just literally cut and pasted from the job description, the higher up that that candidate gets.

[Adrienne Ma]

Yeah, Jennifer says she actually has a friend who works in government and came across this resume that not only had it been obviously copied and pasted from the website, but it was still in the original website font. And, and this resume still made it through the initial screening process. So this mechanical approach to screening candidates is one way that Jennifer says the.

[Darian Woods]

Hiring pool gets skewed and the candidates who make the first cut go to the second round.

[Jennifer Palka]

What they do is they send those candidates a self assessment and ask them to rate themselves on how good they are on all of the core competencies in the job description. And so if you know to mark yourself as master on every level, then you'll make the next down select, which.

[Adrienne Ma]

Is HR speak for making it to the next round. And so you can see this self assessment process, it helps narrow down the pool of potential candidates. But Jennifer says it also further skews the pool of potential hires in favor of people who know how to game the process. So by the time the hiring managers get a short list of candidates, a lot of them turn out not to be qualified for the job, and they have to start over.

[Jennifer Palka]

It's very, very widely accepted that this does not work well, I should say. There's so many wonderful civil servants that it is not that we don't get good people. It's that the process makes it very hard to get good people and puts a huge burden on those who are trying to do the hiring.

[Darian Woods]

In short, Jennifer says the major defect in government hiring is its rigidity. Unlike in the private sector, hiring managers in the federal government often have very little flexibility to assess candidates. So how did it get to be this way?

[Jennifer Palka]

It's risk aversion, essentially. We've developed a culture in government where we want to be able to say that the process got the outcome rather than a person, because if a person made a judgment that this was, you know, the right hire, someone's going to.

[Adrienne Ma]

Criticize it, or someone may file a legal complaint about it. Jennifer says as a result of all this, the actual work of government takes longer than it should. She points, for example, to the raft of infrastructure spending laws Congress passed early in the Biden administration.

[Jennifer Palka]

You had the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, the CHIPS and Science act, the ira. These didn't get all the money out the door, and now those are subject to clawback, in part because the teams charged with implementing those laws had to fight to get the people that they need.

[Darian Woods]

Previous presidents, from Chester A. Arthur to Jimmy Carter to Bill Clinton, have tried, with varying degrees of success, to revamp the way the government hires people to make it more efficient and fair. But Jennifer says it's long past time.

[Adrienne Ma]

For a refresh, which is what the Trump administration says it wants to do. So what does Jennifer think about some of Trump's proposals? Well, on the one hand, she says she is deeply skeptical. For instance, one of Trump's orders is titled Reforming the Federal Hiring Process and Restoring Merit to Government Service. And one of the changes it calls for is a process that prioritizes candidates that are, quote, passionate about the ideals of the American republic.

[Darian Woods]

So I wonder, on a practical level, like, how is this even assessed? And do we know exactly what the ideals of the American republic are?

[Jennifer Palka]

Imagine trying to implement that language on the ground. What are you actually doing to test for passion for the ideals of the American republic? Right. Like, I think that that language is all messaging and all signaling.

[Adrienne Ma]

I mean, Darian, it's not that complicated. I feel like you just, you just come up with a multiple choice question. You ask people like football or soccer.

[Darian Woods]

I know the right answer is soccer.

[Adrienne Ma]

So we're just playing around here, right? But this passion for American ideals language is vague. And some worry it could be used in the hiring process as a sort of political loyalty test, which could undermine the independence of the civil service.

[Jennifer Palka]

We don't want to go back to a spoils system. And I think there's fear right now that that would be returning to, to what we had before, which is essentially graft.

[Darian Woods]

On the other hand, Jennifer says there is an opportunity under a new administration for the Office of Personnel Management, essentially the government's HR department, to make some improvements. It could simplify the hiring process and give managers, the ones actually supervising employees, more say. Also, the government could take a page from the private sector and bring more experts into the interview process.

[Jennifer Palka]

So, for instance, if you're hiring for a programmer or a product manager in the private sector, you would have programmers look at that person's work and interview them. And in the public sector right now, it's very uncommon to do that because the processes take so much time.

[Adrienne Ma]

Now, Trump's incoming head of the Office of Personnel Management is a guy named Scott Cooper, a partner at the venture capital firm Andreessen Horowitz. And Jennifer says she is somewhat hopeful that he might be able to make some positive change in what she calls the nerdy guts of government.

[Jennifer Palka]

And if we can get rid of some of the, you know, very overly strict policies that try to not use any judgment at all in the hiring and diminish some of the possible downsides, we could really end up, frankly, with a better hiring system at the end of these four years. I'm not saying that's guaranteed. I'm not. I'm saying that's absolutely possible.

[Adrienne Ma]

Darian, if you were to self assess how well we did at this podcast episode, what marks would you give us?

[Darian Woods]

Well, I guess I've learned that the only answer is 10 out of 10.

[Adrienne Ma]

There you go. That is what I was hoping for.

[Darian Woods]

I'm learning quickly.

[Adrienne Ma]

This episode was produced by Cooper Katz McKim with engineering by Kwesi Lee. It was fact checked by Sierra Juarez. Paddy Hirsch edited this episode. Cayton Cannon is our editor and the indicators of production of npr.

[NPR Announcer]

This message comes from Mint Mobile. From the gas pump to the grocery store, inflation is everywhere. So Mint Mobile is offering premium wireless starting at just $15 a month. To get your new phone plan for just $15, go to mintmobile.com Switch support for NPR and the following message come from Boll and Branch. Change your sleep with Bolen Branch's airy blankets, cloud like duvets and breathable sheets. Feel the difference with 15% off your first [e-mail] with code NPR exclusions apply. See site for details. Support for NPR and the following message come from Rosetta Stone the perfect app to achieve your language learning goals. No matter how busy your schedule gets, it's designed to maximize study time with immersive 10 minute lessons and audio practice for your commute. Plus, tailor your learning plan for specific objectives like travel. Get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off and unlimited access to 25 language courses. Learn more at RosettaStone.com NPR.