How influence actually works

Summary

Summary of "How Influence Actually Works"

Podcast: The Indicator from Planet Money
Host: Adrian Ma & Waylon Wong
Guest: Steve Martin, Faculty Director of Behavioral Science at Columbia Business School
Release Date: December 9, 2024

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Introduction to Influence

[00:16] Adrian Ma:
The episode delves into the concept of influence—defined as the ability to persuade, motivate, or connect with others. Recognizing its elusive measurability, the hosts emphasize its significant role in the workplace.

[00:25] Waylon Wong:
Steve Martin, a seasoned researcher in Behavioral Science, shares his extensive studies on what constitutes effective influence within organizations.

[00:36] Steve Martin:
"It's at the core of everything it's around us. Without influence, nothing gets done and nothing changes."
— Steve Martin
(00:36)

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Debunking Myths About Influence

Steve Martin challenges common misconceptions surrounding influence:

Myth 1: Information Equals Influence

[02:17] Steve Martin:
Influence isn't merely about supplying information or facts.
"We live in a world where we're so overwhelmed with information already... there's really no evidence at all that suggests that information alone is an effective mechanism to get someone to listen to you and to change."
— Steve Martin
(02:53)

Key Insight: Overloading individuals with information is ineffective, akin to "pouring water onto an already full bucket."

Myth 2: Asking People What Influences Them

[04:02] Steve Martin:
Research indicates that self-reported influential factors often don't translate into actual behavior.
"The message that they say will have the biggest influence over them has no influence at all. And the message that they rejected... was the only message that actually did influence their behavior."
— Steve Martin
(05:20)

Study Highlight: An experiment on recycling behaviors showed that the least favored message (peer influence) was most effective in altering behavior, contrary to participants' self-assessments.

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The Influence Equation: Facts, Finances, and Feelings

Steve Martin presents a formula for effective influence, comprising three elements:

1. Evidence (Facts)
2. Economics (Finances)
3. Emotions (Feelings)

[05:37] Steve Martin:
"Influence is all about the right mix of facts, finances, and feelings."
— Steve Martin
(05:37)

1. Evidence (Facts)

[06:15] Steve Martin:
In an information-saturated environment, simplicity is key.
"The moment that we try to present more than three ideas, people become more skeptical and they become more resistant to our ideas."
— Steve Martin
(06:39)

Advice: Limit the number of factual points to maintain receptiveness and reduce skepticism.

2. Economics (Finances)

[06:48] Steve Martin:
Influence through financial precision enhances credibility.
"When you ask for something and you use a precise number, people are more inclined to believe that there's a good reason why you've asked for that precise number."
— Steve Martin
(07:19)

Example: When requesting a raise, using specific figures (e.g., 6.73% instead of 10%) can make the proposal appear well-founded and reasonable.

3. Emotions (Feelings)

[07:26] Steve Martin:
Timing and emotional states significantly impact influence.
"People in a good mood tend to be more inclined to say yes to our requests than people in a bad mood."
— Steve Martin
(07:26)

Strategies:

• Optimal Timing: Address requests when the other party is receptive and in a positive emotional state.
• Storytelling: Craft compelling narratives to evoke emotions like inspiration and excitement, fostering quicker decision-making and openness to opportunities.

[08:35] Steve Martin:
An illustrative example combines emotional appeal with precise financial requests:
"If I ask for a 6.73% pay rise, presenting a narrative about successful collaboration and tangible results makes the request both emotionally resonant and logically sound."
— Steve Martin
(09:03)

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Ethical Considerations in Influence

Addressing potential ethical concerns, Steve Martin underscores the responsible use of influence techniques.

[09:30] Steve Martin:
"These can be tools, approaches that can be used in irresponsible, unethical, perhaps even dishonest ways. I wouldn't recommend it."
— Steve Martin
(09:30)

Ethical Framework:

• Favorite Sister Test:
  "Would you be happy with someone doing this with your favorite sister or your auntie?"
• Criteria:
  1. Truthfulness: Is the approach honest?
  2. Wisdom: Is it appropriate and considerate?
  3. Respect: Does it uphold personal and relational integrity?

Conclusion: Ethical influence fosters lasting relationships and sustainable outcomes, whereas manipulative tactics may yield short-term gains but damage trust irreparably.

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Final Thoughts

The episode offers a comprehensive exploration of influence, dismantling prevalent myths and presenting a structured approach to becoming more persuasive in professional settings. By balancing facts, finances, and emotions ethically, individuals can enhance their ability to inspire and drive meaningful change within organizations.

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Notable Quotes

• Steve Martin:
  "Without influence, nothing gets done and nothing changes."
  (00:36)

• Steve Martin:
  "Influence is all about the right mix of facts, finances, and feelings."
  (05:37)

• Steve Martin:
  "The moment that we try to present more than three ideas, people become more skeptical and they become more resistant to our ideas."
  (06:39)

• Steve Martin:
  "When you ask for something and you use a precise number, people are more inclined to believe that there's a good reason why you've asked for that precise number."
  (07:19)

• Steve Martin:
  "People in a good mood tend to be more inclined to say yes to our requests than people in a bad mood."
  (07:26)

• Steve Martin:
  "These can be tools, approaches that can be used in irresponsible, unethical, perhaps even dishonest ways. I wouldn't recommend it."
  (09:30)

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Conclusion

Steve Martin's insights provide actionable strategies for enhancing influence in the workplace. By understanding and applying the principles of evidence, economics, and emotions responsibly, individuals can effectively navigate organizational dynamics and achieve their professional objectives.

Transcript

[NPR]

Npr.

[Adrian Ma]

This is the indicator from Planet Money. I'm Adrian Ma.

[Waylon Wong]

And I'm Waylon Wong.

[Adrian Ma]

Influence, the ability to persuade, motivate, or connect with other people. It's one of these skills that's hard to measure but incredibly important in the world of work.

[Waylon Wong]

Steve Martin knows this because he's the faculty director of Behavioral Science at Columbia Business School. And for years he's been studying what makes people influential within organizations.

[Steve Martin]

It's at the core of everything it's around us. Without influence, nothing gets done and nothing changes.

[Adrian Ma]

And yet Steve argues that we often misunderstand how influence works.

[Waylon Wong]

So today on the show, Adrian's conversation with Steve. He distills his decades of research to explain the unspoken rules of influence in the workplace.

[Corey Bridges]

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[NPR]

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[Adrian Ma]

The table, what is influence? I mean, that sounds like a basic question.

[Steve Martin]

I think it's a good question, actually. When I think about influence, I think about it as a change that you are able to affect in someone else as a result of a message that you deliver to them, a request that you make of them, or perhaps, you know, it's an incentive that you offer. But the core to influence, Adrian, is to have an impact or a change on someone else. That's what influence is.

[Adrian Ma]

Early in your book, you talk about some of the common myths and misconceptions that we have about the way influence works. What are some of your favorite of these myths?

[Steve Martin]

I think many of us believe that if we simply provide people with information, give them the facts, then they'll listen to us and they'll be influenced by that information and those facts. But actually, the evidence that it's an effective mechanism for influence and change is actually very poor. Because from the moment we wake up in the mornings to the moment we go to bed in the evenings, all of us are overwhelmed with information already. And so the analogy I use, it's rather like pouring water onto an already full bucket. It just seeps over the side. And so the reality is that there's really no evidence at all that suggests that information alone is an effective mechanism to get someone to listen to you and to change.

[Adrian Ma]

There's another popular idea that if you want to know how to influence people, just ask them what would influence them. But you say that the research doesn't really back this up either. For instance, there's an interesting experiment you write about where researchers asked people what would get them to recycle more. Could you tell us about that experiment?

[Steve Martin]

Yeah, exactly right. So we give people four messages. One is about, do it for the kids, future generations. Another one is, hey, if you recycle more, you can concede yourself an environmentally friendly family. Another message simply said, hey, here's how you can save money if you recycle. And a fourth message said, a lot of your neighbors are finding ways to recycle more and reduce their energy consumption. We show these messages to people, and we ask them to rank them in terms of the one that will have the most motivational impact and influence over them down to the least. And people typically rate the environmental message as the most motivating, and the message about their neighbors is the least likely to have any influence. But then when we present these messages to people in their neighborhoods, we put them on bus stops, we put them on door hangers in front of their homes and things, and then measure their recycling and their energy consumption on those days. It turns out the message that they say will have the biggest influence over them has no influence at all. And the message that they rejected, that their neighbors wouldn't have any influence over them at all, that was the only message that actually did influence their behavior. So there's a really good example of what we think influences our behavior is very different to the reality.

[Adrian Ma]

So those are some common myths and misconceptions. But you say research has actually shown us how effective influence can work. You've distilled what you've learned into a sort of formula you call the influence equation. And you argue that effective influence is essentially made up of three things.

[Steve Martin]

So it turns out that any of us, all of us in Fact can be a little more influential. Boost our powers of persuasion if we craft our message based on the optimal combination of evidence, economics and emotions. Put another way, Adrian, influence is all about the right mix of facts, finances, and feelings.

[Adrian Ma]

I love the alliteration here. So emotions, economics and evidence, or facts, finance and feelings? And feelings, yeah. I wonder if we could go through each of these categories one by one because it's still a little abstract to me. What's some advice you would have for people trying to influence with facts and evidence?

[Steve Martin]

We live in a world where we're so overwhelmed with information. And so the research now is very, very strongly advocating that when we present our ideas, less really is more. In fact, the evidence actually shows that the moment that we try to present more than three ideas, people become more skeptical and they become more resistant to our ideas. And so the amount of evidence we present is important too.

[Adrian Ma]

What about the second piece of your equation? How do people use finances or economics to influence people? Besides the obvious of offering people money.

[Steve Martin]

Sometimes it's the way we actually present it. Let me give an example. If you're asking for a pay rise, the advice is don't ask for a pay rise that has a round ended number. Don't ask for 10%, you know, ask for 8.65% or 11.25%. The research actually shows is that when you ask for something and you use a precise number, people are more inclined to believe that there's a good reason why you've asked for that precise number.

[Adrian Ma]

Interesting. Okay, the third part of your influence equation is emotions or feelings. How might we think about those?

[Steve Martin]

I think there's two things that we can do here. The first is we can choose our timing. People in a good mood tend to be more inclined to say yes to our requests than people in a bad mood. So the message here is that we don't have to change our request, we just have to change our timing for it to be optimal.

[Adrian Ma]

Consider the emotional state of the person that you're interacting with.

[Steve Martin]

Okay, you're exactly right. Consider the emotional state. Now here's another thing we can do though. We can actually create emotions. People create emotions by telling stories. Some of the stories we can tell might be inspiring and exciting to people. And we know that in emotional states like excitement and inspiration, people think much, much quicker. They're more likely to want to grasp opportunities and gain things. And so if that's our message, creating that environment of excitement and awe might be a good thing.

[Adrian Ma]

And in that example you gave of somebody going to their boss and asking for a raise they could tell a story about, hey, you hired me, you took a chance on me, and you were right. Entirely consistent of your brilliance.

[Steve Martin]

It is. It is. You know, you made a good decision. You made a good decision to employ me. We've been working well together. You know, look at the results that we've actually generated. And in that context, I'm not going to ask you for a 25% pay rise. I think that would be wholly inappropriate. But maybe a 6.73% pay rise sounds about, you know, realistic. And there you've got, you know, your contrast and your precise number working for you as well as the emotion.

[Adrian Ma]

I love it. Okay, so I think this gives us a sense of what the research says about how effective influence works at work. But I know some people are going to be listening and thinking, this feels a little icky to me. Like the idea that you can sort of decode people's psychologies and influence them. That could be used in a way that's maybe unethical. So what do you have to say to that?

[Steve Martin]

Well, first of all, I completely agree with you. The fact is that these can be tools, approaches that can be used in irresponsible, unethical, perhaps even dishonest ways. I wouldn't recommend it. Doing something unethical, manipulating your colleague into a decision at work that might win you the outcome in that moment, but you've destroyed the relationship forever. We have what we call our favorite sister test, and it's basically, would you be happy with someone doing this with your favorite sister or your auntie? And if you can say yes to those three things, it's truthful, it's wise, and it passes the favorite sister test. Generally speaking, that falls on the side of it's sound. And it's probably ethically sound, too.

[Adrian Ma]

Do you have a favorite sister?

[Steve Martin]

I do have a favorite sister. Her name is Joanne Lover Dearly.

[Adrian Ma]

How does your other sister feel about that?

[Steve Martin]

I'm kind of hoping she doesn't listen to this podcast.

[Waylon Wong]

This episode was produced by Corey Bridges with engineering by Kwesi Lee. It was fact checked by Sara Juarez. Kay Kinkannon is our editor and the indicator is a production of npr.

[Corey Bridges]

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[NPR]

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