How your phone keeps you scrolling ... even when you want to stop

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Indicator from Planet Money

Episode: How your phone keeps you scrolling ... even when you want to stop
Date: June 19, 2026
Host: Adrian Ma, with guests Emily Kwong, Mike Lane, Michaeline Duclef, neuroscientists Jonathan Morrow & Mateusz Gola
Original Source: Collaborative episode with NPR’s “Short Wave”

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Main Theme

This episode explores how social media and smartphone apps are engineered to maximize user engagement and attention—often making them difficult to put down, even when users want to stop. The discussion draws fascinating parallels between the evolution of gambling machines and today’s digital platforms, examining the psychological “super glue” that keeps people scrolling. The episode also shares tips for regaining control over your screen time.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Roots of Digital Addiction: Lessons from Las Vegas

(02:04-04:32)

• The story begins in the casinos of 1980s Las Vegas, where mechanical games were replaced with cheaper digital slot and poker machines.

• Casinos pioneered rapid, iterative “A/B testing” on gamblers, tweaking machine features to increase playtime.

• Quote [03:11] Mike Lane:

  "The casinos essentially ran these large scale experiments on all the millions of people gambling each year in Vegas. They tweaked the device a bit and then see if those changes increase the time people spent gambling. Then they just repeated the process for decades."

• The result: some people gamble for 24-48 hours straight—sometimes using adult diapers so they don't have to leave the machine.

• Anthropologist Natasha Dow Schüll found that these game designs could induce a trance-like state she called the “machine zone” or “dark flow,” where players lose track of time and self-awareness.

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2. The Social Media ‘Super Glue’ Recipe

(04:32-07:56)

• Today’s social media apps have “imported” this machine zone into digital life; apps are engineered to exploit four core ingredients to keep users hooked:

The Four Ingredients

1. Solitude

   • Using apps alone removes external cues that signal when to stop.
   • Quote [04:44] Emily Kwong:

     "This is important because it removes social cues for stopping."

2. Bottomlessness

   • Infinite, auto-loading content with no natural stopping point.
   • Quote [05:23] Emily Kwong:

     "There is no natural stopping point."

3. Speed

   • Faster interaction means people engage longer—mirroring rapid betting in casinos.
   • Quote [05:59] Mike Lane:

     "Today, on slot machines, you can play, like 1200 games per hour or like, one game every three seconds. It's bonkers."

   • Infinite scroll (introduced in the 2010s) caused a spike in time spent on social platforms.

4. Personalized Algorithm (“Teasing”)

   • Apps use AI to figure out what users want, then deliberately “tease” them with close, but not exact, matches.

   • Quote [06:55] Jonathan Morrow:

     “They know what you want. They're very good at figuring that out... They don't give it to you. They give you something close to that.”

   • This sense of almost reaching a goal triggers a dopamine spike, motivating continued use—just like striving for a win in a slot machine.

   • Quote [07:20] Jonathan Morrow:

     “When you see improvement, progress, and so on, then you have a huge spike of dopamine telling you, oh, do it again, and you will get it.”

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3. The Science of ‘Flow’—and Its Dark Side

(08:07-09:03)

• The classic “flow state” (from Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi’s work) is rewarding, usually arising from challenging, creative, or athletic activities.
• The “dark flow” or “machine zone” is a mindless, immersive state induced by addictive apps or machines, leaving users depleted and gloomy afterwards.
• Quote [08:49] Mike Lane:

  "These apps create dark flow, and that's where you're concentrating on an easy, kind of mindless task. And you still feel deeply immersed in it. Right. But afterwards, you often feel bad. Lethargic and maybe even gloomy."

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4. Breaking the Cycle: Practical Tips

(09:03-10:00)

• Put 'bottoms' on bottomless platforms:

  • Mike Lane’s family canceled streaming subscriptions, switching to pay-per-view. This forced more intentional choices—decreasing screen time and saving money.
  • Quote [09:24] Mike Lane:

    “We canceled all of our subscriptions and now have to buy each video a la carte. I thought we'd end up spending way more money, but actually, we saved so much money because we're really careful about what we watch before we press play.”

• Physical boundaries for devices:

  • Lane’s life-changing advice: leave your phone in a drawer by the door at home. Use it only by going to that spot, rather than carrying it everywhere.
  • Quote [09:45] Mike Lane:

    “When you come home, put your phone in a drawer near the door and leave it there. If you want to use it, go to the drawer, use it, and put it back. I guarantee you it'll change your life.”

• For more guidance, Lane refers to additional tips in his book “Dopamine Kids.”

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Memorable Quotes

• [03:38] Adrian Ma:

  “They don't even stop to use the bathroom.”

• [07:35] Adrian Ma:

  “So he’s saying just a sense of progress, even if it’s not true progress, motivates us to keep trying and to stick with the app because it's just enough.”

• [08:24] Adrian Ma:

  “I thought being in a flow state was good. Isn’t that where you’re so immersed in a task and you’re enjoying it so much that you almost forget where you are...?”

• [08:47] Mike Lane:

  “But these apps create dark flow... afterwards, you often feel bad, lethargic and maybe even gloomy.”

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Notable Moments & Timestamps

• 02:04 — Introduction to casino analogies: digital slot machines as precursors to addictive app design.
• 03:09-04:02 — Anthropological stories of extreme gambling and “losing oneself.”
• 04:44 — Importance of solitude in app usage.
• 05:23 — The endlessness of feeds (“bottomlessness”).
• 05:59 — Impact of speed, both in gambling and scrolling.
• 06:55 — Algorithms that “tease” users and trigger dopamine.
• 08:07-08:47 — Differentiating “good” flow from “dark flow.”
• 09:24-10:00 — Practical strategies to regain control over apps and screen time.

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Episode Takeaways

• Modern apps borrow from decades of casino psychology—intentionally using solitude, bottomless design, speed, and teasing algorithms to keep people engaged.
• This recipe induces a mindless “dark flow” state, distinguished from classic, fulfilling flow states.
• Setting physical and psychological boundaries—like limiting choice, making usage less convenient, or creating friction—can be effective ways to reclaim attention and autonomy.

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For further reading:

• “Dopamine Kids” by Michaeline Duclef
• Work of researchers Natasha Dow Schüll, Jonathan Morrow, and Mateusz Gola

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If you want quick, practical advice: put your phone in a drawer when you get home, and whenever possible, add friction and intention to your digital habits.

Transcript

[Adrian Ma]

Npr.

[Narrator/Host (Adrian Ma or NPR Host)]

This is the indicator from Planet Money. I'm Adrian Ma. Two landmark trials this year found tech companies guilty of harming children through their apps. And although Meta and Google are in the process of appealing those decisions, there is a growing awareness that social media apps can be addictive. On that score, we're bringing you an episode from our friends at NPR's Daily Science podcast Shortwave. It's hosted by Emily Kwong. And in a recent episode, she spoke with Michaeline Duclef. She's the author of a new book called Dopamine Kids, about the psychology of being glued to a screen. They'll pick up the story from here after the break.

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[Adrian Ma]

Okay, Mike Lane, so this story begins in the casinos of Las Vegas. Take us back in time and explain what was happening there.

[Mike Lane]

Yeah, so we're going to rewind 40 years ago, way back in the 1980s, when the casino industry underwent a massive transformation and created what many scientists think is the most addictive form of gambling ever.

[Adrian Ma]

Oh, how did they do that?

[Mike Lane]

So they went around and ripped up nearly all the mechanical slot machines and all those green felt poker tables and replaced them all with digital versions of these games. So video based slot machines, video based poker machines.

[Adrian Ma]

Oh no.

[Mike Lane]

They did this because these machines were way cheaper to maintain. But but also they allowed the casino industry to Add in all these extra features to them.

[Adrian Ma]

It's like they were apps before they were apps. The gambling games just played on screens.

[Mike Lane]

That's right. So over the course of about 20 years, the industry gradually and purposely increased the addictiveness of these games by tweaking their features based on user feedback.

[Adrian Ma]

Wait, who gave the user feedback?

[Mike Lane]

The gamblers. The casinos essentially ran these large scale experiments on all the millions of people gambling each year in Vegas. They tweaked the device a bit and then see if those changes increase the time people spent gambling. Then they just repeated the process for decades. The result was truly extraordinary. The industry created devices that some people stay on for remarkable periods of time. 24 hours, 48 hours uninterrupted.

[Adrian Ma]

Like they don't even stop to use the bathroom.

[Mike Lane]

Sometimes not. Anthropologist Natasha Dal Scholl found that some people wear adult diapers to the casino. So. So they don't have to stop gambling. One casino worker told her that each night a bunch of the machines sit out in an alley for cleaning because people have peed in them.

[Adrian Ma]

That is awful. That makes me so sad to hear. Cause it just shows the power these devices have on people's attention.

[Mike Lane]

Yeah. And the power they have on people's time and money as well. In her 15 years of researching, Natasha found four features that when combined together, can trigger a trance like state in people. You lose track of time, where you are, what you're doing. Scientists call this the machine zone or dark flow. And some people have a really hard time stepping away from a device when they're in this state. And Natasha realized that apps on phones can sometimes trigger this same machine zone state.

[Emily Kwong]

I think gambling offers a case study of what big tech does in a more general way.

[Adrian Ma]

Mike Lane. Let's blow the COVID off of this. What are the four ingredients in social media? Super Luke.

[Mike Lane]

The first ingredient is solitude.

[Emily Kwong]

This is important because it removes social cues for stopping.

[Mike Lane]

When we use an app by ourselves, we have trouble noticing if we're actually enjoying what we're doing. Studies have found that when kids use screens all alone in their bedroom, they're more likely to stay on the app even when it prevents them from going to sleep or interferes with their homework or friendships.

[Adrian Ma]

I've experienced this as an adult. Okay, what is the second ingredient to social media?

[Emily Kwong]

Supergloom.

[Mike Lane]

It's what I call bottomlessness. There's just seemingly endless photos, endless videos, endless comments to read, endless levels to reach on games. And as Natasha points out, all this content appears automatically.

[Emily Kwong]

There is no natural stopping Point.

[Mike Lane]

So as you're scrolling, you may have a little thought in your head, like, maybe I should go to sleep. Right. But then another outrageous video pops up in your feed.

[Adrian Ma]

I genuinely feel like I'm being baited like a fish.

[Mike Lane]

Exactly. And that feeling grows even stronger when you add in the third ingredient, which is speed.

[Adrian Ma]

Ah, right.

[Mike Lane]

The gambling industry found that when people could place bets faster and faster, they gambled longer and longer. Today, on slot machines, you can play, like 1200 games per hour or like, one game every three seconds. It's bonkers.

[Adrian Ma]

Wait, what? And the speed thing, you're saying this has been happening for a long time with casino games, and it's definitely happening on social media?

[Mike Lane]

Oh, yeah, for sure. The faster we can scroll, the longer we stay on these apps. When social media companies added Infinite scroll in the 2010s, there was a huge jump in use.

[Adrian Ma]

Do scientists know why that's the case, that moving faster would make us stay on the app longer?

[Mike Lane]

Yeah, you know, scientists don't know yet. But Natasha suspects the speed can cause

[Emily Kwong]

this sense of where you feel like you're kind of don't have a sense of where you begin and the machine ends, and it really just pulls you into this flow.

[Adrian Ma]

I don't like that. I don't want to be hooked up to a machine.

[Mike Lane]

Me neither. The fourth ingredient is a personalized algorithm. Neuroscientist Jonathan Morrow studies addiction at the University of Michigan. He thinks this ingredient is probably the most important, and he explains how it works. First, the app uses AI to determine what you want to see.

[Jonathan Morrow]

They know what you want. They're very good at figuring that out.

[Mike Lane]

But then this is key.

[Jonathan Morrow]

They don't give it to you. They give you something close to that.

[Mike Lane]

So they sort of tease you in a way.

[Adrian Ma]

Yeah. They're not trying to satisfy you.

[Mike Lane]

The app makes you feel like you're making progress or getting closer to your goal. Mateusz Gola is a neuroscientist at UC San Diego. He says when people feel like they're making progress, they double down their effort and try harder.

[Jonathan Morrow]

When you see improvement, progress, and so on, then you have a huge spike of dopamine telling you, oh, do it again, and you will get it. Yeah. Because in the real life, when we try again, this dopamine really motivates us to get closer, closer, closer, and hit it.

[Adrian Ma]

So he's saying just a sense of progress, even if it's not true progress, motivates us to keep trying and to stick with the app because it's Just enough.

[Mike Lane]

Yeah. There's always this possibility, Right. Of getting what you want.

[Adrian Ma]

So the social media super glue recipe is as follows. So solitude, bottomlessness, speed, and teasing.

[Mike Lane]

Yep. When all those things combine together, you're likely to enter that trans like state called the machine zone or dark flow. And for many people like me, it's hard to pull out of that state.

[Adrian Ma]

I mean, it seems to me like the tech companies and the gambling industry is hacking human minds. You know, everyone is susceptible to this but question. Mike Lean. I thought being in a flow state was good. Isn't that where you're so immersed in a task and you're enjoying it so much that you almost forget where you are and you play the piano for?

[Mateusz Gola]

Yeah.

[Mike Lane]

So that's the classic flow state, the one that the psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi described back in the 80s. People go into these good flow states when they're doing complex and challenging tasks like playing the piano or knitting a sweater, biking over tough terrain. Right afterwards, this type of flow leaves you feeling really good and optimistic and relaxed.

[Adrian Ma]

Yeah. You get a little mood bump.

[Mike Lane]

Yeah. But these apps create dark flow, and that's where you're concentrating on an easy, kind of mindless task. And you still feel deeply immersed in it. Right. But afterwards, you often feel bad. Right. Lethargic and maybe even gloomy.

[Adrian Ma]

Final question. Can we use this super glue recipe to fight back and pull ourselves away from these apps?

[Mike Lane]

Absolutely. So, for example, our family was wasting way too much time on streaming apps. Right. Streaming videos. So we put a bottom on the app and slowed it way down.

[Adrian Ma]

How'd you do that?

[Mike Lane]

We canceled all of our subscriptions and now have to buy each video a la carte. I thought we'd end up spending way more money, but actually we saved so much money because we're really careful about what we watch before we press play. We really think to ourselves, hmm, do I really Want to spend 5.99 on this video?

[Mateusz Gola]

Wow.

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah, that's.

[Adrian Ma]

These are great. Any other tips?

[Mike Lane]

Yeah. So I have a bunch of tips in my book, but here's one that changed my life. When you come home, put your phone in a drawer near the door and leave it there. If you want to use it, go to the drawer, use it, and put it back. I guarantee you it'll change your life.

[Adrian Ma]

Mike Lean, Duclof. Thank you so much for sharing these fascinating insights into our phones and how we can, I don't know, get a bit of distance from them.

[Mike Lane]

Oh, thank you so much, Emily.

[Narrator/Host (Adrian Ma or NPR Host)]

This episode was produced by Hannah Chin. It was edited by Rebecca Ramirez. Tyler Jones checked the facts and Jimmy Keeley was the audio engineer and Short Wave and the Indicator are productions of npr.

[Sponsor Announcer]

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