Darrienne Woods (2:23)

Sean was a professor at Caltech at the time. The man who invited Sean and his wife to dinner was named Al Secel. Sean knew Al was connected with some other Caltech scientists and that he was active in the local atheist community. Sean is also an atheist, so he

Sean Carroll (2:38)

invited us to dinner and we said, why not?

Waylon Wong (2:40)

What Sean didn't know about Al Secel was that Seckel was helping clean up Epstein's online reputation so that negative articles would get buried in search results. All Sean knew back at that 2010 dinner was that Al Suckel had a wealthy friend who wanted to be a patron of science.

Sean Carroll (2:56)

And scientists like to get donations to pursue their science. So this is something that's a call that most scientists will always take. It's not completely crazy that someone who has a lot of money wants to be a philanthropist and, you know, support science. And in fact, I think that's a good thing.

Darrienne Woods (3:13)

So Sean took the call of Epstein. He didn't recognize the name. And he remembers the call was just a few minutes long.

Sean Carroll (3:19)

He was just like talking very rapidly, using all these buzzwords, you know, asking. He clearly had known something about quantum mechanics or cosmology or whatever, and he wanted to sound impressive and profound.

Darrienne Woods (3:31)

I think we've all heard that guy at the party who has read that one New Scientist article.

Waylon Wong (3:36)

Yep. That's how he came across to Sean.

Darrienne Woods (3:38)

Yeah. And a few months later, Sean got an email from Al Secel inviting him to a conference on Epstein's island.

Sean Carroll (3:44)

And he named some other names who were also invited. All very good people. And it'll be, you know, interdisciplinary. Spend a couple days on an island in the Caribbean talking about big ideas in science, like, it all sounded great.

Waylon Wong (3:56)

Sean's wife was also invited. She's a science journalist who often participates in the same events as Sean. So he asked whether his wife would be part of this conference too.

Sean Carroll (4:06)

And we were told, well, she can go shopping with the other wives of the scientists.

Waylon Wong (4:11)

As you might imagine, this did not sit well with Sean's wife or him. And he already had a negative impression of Epstein after that brief buzzword laden phone call.

Sean Carroll (4:21)

I know that, you know, this is sort of self serving and after the fact, I instantly disliked him.

Darrienne Woods (4:25)

Sean and his wife declined the invite and that was the end of his dealings with Epstein. Al Seckel died a few years later in 2015. The promise of this wealthy patron wanting to fund scientific research didn't materialize for Sean. And fortunately for him, that was he could forego.

Sean Carroll (4:44)

I don't need that much money.

Waylon Wong (4:45)

Okay, right.

Sean Carroll (4:46)

To sit back and have a chalkboard and a couple grad students. That's what I need. And grad students are not cheap. So I do need some money, but I don't need like to have a huge lab or anything like that.

Darrienne Woods (4:58)

No Hadron collider for him.

Waylon Wong (5:00)

No. But other scientists do need huge labs and lots of money for their research. And Epstein was someone who expressed interest in science and seemed to enjoy collecting high profile people for his network. He would organize these gatherings of intellectuals to talk about science and politics.

Darrienne Woods (5:16)

Combine a scientist's need for money with Epstein's deep pockets and you've got the recipe for what Leslie Linkowski describes as an age old dilemma. Leslie is an emeritus professor at Indiana University who studies philanthropy.

Leslie Linkowski (5:29)

What we see in the people seeking funds from him is a classic case of what we call tainted money. And the phrase literally goes back to the Bible. There's been a longstanding debate within philanthropy as to whether or not a person should take money from people who have committed one or another kind of misdeeds.

Waylon Wong (5:56)

MIT, for example, accepted $750,000 in donations from Epstein after his 2008 conviction, according to an independent report that MIT commissioned. Some university officials argue that some society benefits if money from bad sources is put to good uses.

Darrienne Woods (6:14)

Leslie says the MIT Epstein example also raises questions like, well, what if this tainted money is funding something unrelated to whatever the misdeed was? He says that could change how a recipient thinks about the reputational risk of accepting the money. For example, he says he'd advise an anti sex trafficking organisation not to take Epstein's money.

Leslie Linkowski (6:36)

On the other hand, if you run a computer lab at mit, well, it's not as though you're doing anything that really in any way implicates Mr. Epstein. It's a much closer call for something like a computer lab.

Waylon Wong (6:54)

And cash strapped scientists can find it difficult to turn down money from private donors. For one thing, this kind of funding typically comes with much less red tape than a government grant.

Darrienne Woods (7:04)

Private donors can also facilitate lucrative connections with other wealthy or influential people. The Epstein emails show how he traded introductions, favors and advice with the powerful people in his orbit.

Leslie Linkowski (7:16)

Epstein, I'm sure, knew what he was doing. He created kind of a human Ponzi scheme. So by having the opportunity to rub shoulders with other people with money, you think, well, gee, there's going to be a multiplier effect. Maybe I'll get some of his money, or maybe I can get Woody Allen to be a commencement speaker or any of these things.

Waylon Wong (7:39)

Physicist Sean Carroll says the networking aspect was what appealed to him about the invite to the science conference on Epstein's island. And because he spent a lot of time thinking about time travel and multiverses, I had to ask him, is there like an alternate timeline? Like, is it an alternate timeline where you ended up there?

Sean Carroll (7:58)

Yeah, I think there absolutely is. I mean, I was more attracted by the idea of just talking to other scientists in a nice environment. Even though I don't need a lot of money, I do need interactions with all sorts of different people, and that's valuable.

Darrienne Woods (8:11)

Epstein knew the value of his vast network, and now some of the powerful people that willingly plugged into that network are starting to pay the costs.

Waylon Wong (8:24)

This episode was produced by Vito Emanuel and engineered by Jimmy Keeley. It was fact checked by Sarah Juarez and edited by Alex Goldmark. Kicking Cannon is our show's editor and the indicator is a production of npr.

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