Should colleges accept money from bad people?

Summary

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The Indicator from Planet Money

Episode Title: Should colleges accept money from bad people?

Date: March 12, 2026
Hosts: Waylon Wong & Darrienne Woods

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Episode Overview

This episode investigates the ethical dilemma faced by universities and scientists when accepting donations from individuals with tarnished reputations, focusing particularly on the case of Jeffrey Epstein. Through the story of physicist Sean Carroll’s fleeting connection to Epstein, the hosts explore why tainted money remains a recurring problem in academia, how institutions justify such gifts, and what’s at stake for the individuals—and fields—benefiting from controversial donors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Sean Carroll's Unexpected Brush with Epstein

• [00:11] Waylon Wong introduces Sean Carroll—a professor at Johns Hopkins University who has advised on popular films and often ponders “the fundamental nature of reality."

• [00:36] Carroll recounts being invited in 2010 to a dinner hosted by Al Seckel, who was connected to both the science and atheist communities.

• [00:55] Carroll is unexpectedly put on a call with Jeffrey Epstein, whose wealth and interest in science quickly become clear.

  Sean Carroll [02:56]: "Scientists like to get donations to pursue their science. So this is something that's a call that most scientists will always take. It's not completely crazy that someone who has a lot of money wants to be a philanthropist and, you know, support science."

The Ill-Fated Science Conference Invitation

• [03:38] Several months after the call, Carroll is invited by Seckel to a science conference at Epstein’s private Caribbean island, along with other reputable scientists.

• Carroll asks if his wife, a science journalist, is also invited as a participant.

  Sean Carroll [04:06]: "And we were told, well, she can go shopping with the other wives of the scientists."

• Carroll and his wife are put off by both Epstein’s demeanor and sexist assumptions; they decline the invitation.

  Sean Carroll [04:21]: "I know that, you know, this is sort of self serving and after the fact, I instantly disliked him."

The Broader Dilemma: Tainted Money & Academia

• [05:16] Darrienne Woods frames the issue within a larger context: scientists' need for funding vs. the risks of associating with donors of dubious character.

• [05:29] Leslie Linkowski, a philanthropy scholar, explains the concept of 'tainted money'—its ethical roots go back to the Bible.

  Leslie Linkowski [05:29]: "What we see in the people seeking funds from him is a classic case of what we call tainted money... There's been a longstanding debate within philanthropy as to whether or not a person should take money from people who have committed one or another kind of misdeeds."

• [06:14] The episode cites MIT accepting $750,000 in donations from Epstein after his conviction, sparking debate over whether the source—or use—of donated money matters.

  Leslie Linkowski [06:36]: "If you run a computer lab at MIT, well, it's not as though you're doing anything that really in any way implicates Mr. Epstein. It's a much closer call for something like a computer lab."

Pressure to Accept & The Power of Networks

• [06:54] Scientists, especially those with expensive labs, may feel compelled to accept private funds due to fewer restrictions compared to government grants.

• [07:04] Epstein's value as a networker—leveraging introductions and favors—created what Linkowski dubs "a human Ponzi scheme."

  Leslie Linkowski [07:16]: "He created kind of a human Ponzi scheme... Maybe I'll get some of his money, or maybe I can get Woody Allen to be a commencement speaker or any of these things."

• [07:39] Carroll acknowledges the networking aspect as a temptation, even for those not motivated primarily by money.

  Sean Carroll [07:58]: "Yeah, I think there absolutely is [an alternate timeline where I went]. I was more attracted by the idea of just talking to other scientists in a nice environment. Even though I don't need a lot of money, I do need interactions with all sorts of different people, and that's valuable."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sean Carroll (on tainted money):

  "Scientists like to get donations to pursue their science. So this is something that's a call that most scientists will always take." [02:56]

• On the sexist attitude at Epstein's event:

  "We were told, well, she can go shopping with the other wives of the scientists." [04:06]

• On instant dislike for Epstein:

  "I know that, you know, this is sort of self serving and after the fact, I instantly disliked him." [04:21]

• Leslie Linkowski (on tainted money):

  "There's been a longstanding debate within philanthropy as to whether or not a person should take money from people who have committed one or another kind of misdeeds." [05:29]

• Linkowski (on computer labs and tainted donors):

  "If you run a computer lab at MIT, well, it's not as though you're doing anything that really in any way implicates Mr. Epstein. It's a much closer call for something like a computer lab." [06:36]

• Linkowski (on Epstein's strategy):

  "He created kind of a human Ponzi scheme. So by having the opportunity to rub shoulders with other people with money, you think, well, gee, there's going to be a multiplier effect." [07:16]

• Carroll (on the allure of intellectual networking):

  "I was more attracted by the idea of just talking to other scientists in a nice environment... I do need interactions with all sorts of different people, and that's valuable." [07:58]

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Important Timestamps

• [00:55] – Sean Carroll's first encounter with Epstein (by phone)
• [03:38] – The invitation to Epstein’s island conference
• [04:06] – Sexist dismissal of Carroll's wife at the event
• [05:29] – Introduction to the concept of "tainted money"
• [06:14] – The case of MIT accepting Epstein's post-conviction donations
• [06:54] – Discussion of why scientists may accept money from controversial donors
• [07:16] – Insight into Epstein's networking and influence strategies
• [07:58] – Carroll on the value of networking versus wealth

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode balances gravity (φtainted money’s impact on science and reputation) with moments of levity and candidness (such as Carroll’s open dislike of Epstein and skepticism of high-flown offers). The hosts and guests shed light on the murky choices faced by academics and universities, presenting the issue as both timeless and unresolved.

Ultimately, the episode leaves listeners wrestling with the same ethical questions: Should the origins of funding matter if the end use is noble? And what is the real cost, reputational or otherwise, of accepting support from “bad people”?

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Transcript

[NPR Announcer]

Npr.

[Waylon Wong]

Sean Carroll's job is to ponder questions like what is the fundamental nature of reality? That's because he's a professor of physics and philosophy at Johns Hopkins University.

[Darrienne Woods]

Sean has also advised on movies like Thor and Endgame, and he's not a stickler for the details.

[Sean Carroll]

Yeah, it would be very hard to be a science consultant on Thor, the movie, if you were really a purist about getting the physics right.

[Darrienne Woods]

Yeah. So Sean has rubbed shoulders with notable scientists and Hollywood types. And back in 2010, he and his wife got invited to dinner at someone's home that night. The host said to Sean, I'm friends

[Sean Carroll]

with this guy who is pretty wealthy and interested in science, so why don't you chat for a few minutes and see if you hit it off?

[Waylon Wong]

The host got this guy on the phone, so Sean took the call. On the other end of the line was Jeffrey Epstein. This is the indicator from Planet Money. I'm Waylon Wong.

[Darrienne Woods]

And I'm Darrienne Woods. The Epstein files give a glimpse into the extent of Epstein's network across business, government and academia. Today on the show, what happened after Sean's phone call and what Epstein's links to scientists reveal about how universities fund research.

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[Darrienne Woods]

We recently did an episode on how convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein acted as an elite power broker in government and business circles. He also cultivated a network of high profile academics. They included economist and former Harvard president Larry Summers, a Nobel Prize winning brain scientist at Columbia University and the president of Bard College in New York State.

[Waylon Wong]

Summers hasn't been accused of any criminal wrongdoing. Still, the Epstein files reveal that these connections with academics and professors continued well after he was convicted in 2008. For example, that dinner that led to physicist Sean Carroll's brush with Epstein that took place in 2010.

[Darrienne Woods]

Sean was a professor at Caltech at the time. The man who invited Sean and his wife to dinner was named Al Secel. Sean knew Al was connected with some other Caltech scientists and that he was active in the local atheist community. Sean is also an atheist, so he

[Sean Carroll]

invited us to dinner and we said, why not?

[Waylon Wong]

What Sean didn't know about Al Secel was that Seckel was helping clean up Epstein's online reputation so that negative articles would get buried in search results. All Sean knew back at that 2010 dinner was that Al Suckel had a wealthy friend who wanted to be a patron of science.

[Sean Carroll]

And scientists like to get donations to pursue their science. So this is something that's a call that most scientists will always take. It's not completely crazy that someone who has a lot of money wants to be a philanthropist and, you know, support science. And in fact, I think that's a good thing.

[Darrienne Woods]

So Sean took the call of Epstein. He didn't recognize the name. And he remembers the call was just a few minutes long.

[Sean Carroll]

He was just like talking very rapidly, using all these buzzwords, you know, asking. He clearly had known something about quantum mechanics or cosmology or whatever, and he wanted to sound impressive and profound.

[Darrienne Woods]

I think we've all heard that guy at the party who has read that one New Scientist article.

[Waylon Wong]

Yep. That's how he came across to Sean.

[Darrienne Woods]

Yeah. And a few months later, Sean got an email from Al Secel inviting him to a conference on Epstein's island.

[Sean Carroll]

And he named some other names who were also invited. All very good people. And it'll be, you know, interdisciplinary. Spend a couple days on an island in the Caribbean talking about big ideas in science, like, it all sounded great.

[Waylon Wong]

Sean's wife was also invited. She's a science journalist who often participates in the same events as Sean. So he asked whether his wife would be part of this conference too.

[Sean Carroll]

And we were told, well, she can go shopping with the other wives of the scientists.

[Waylon Wong]

As you might imagine, this did not sit well with Sean's wife or him. And he already had a negative impression of Epstein after that brief buzzword laden phone call.

[Sean Carroll]

I know that, you know, this is sort of self serving and after the fact, I instantly disliked him.

[Darrienne Woods]

Sean and his wife declined the invite and that was the end of his dealings with Epstein. Al Seckel died a few years later in 2015. The promise of this wealthy patron wanting to fund scientific research didn't materialize for Sean. And fortunately for him, that was he could forego.

[Sean Carroll]

I don't need that much money.

[Waylon Wong]

Okay, right.

[Sean Carroll]

To sit back and have a chalkboard and a couple grad students. That's what I need. And grad students are not cheap. So I do need some money, but I don't need like to have a huge lab or anything like that.

[Darrienne Woods]

No Hadron collider for him.

[Waylon Wong]

No. But other scientists do need huge labs and lots of money for their research. And Epstein was someone who expressed interest in science and seemed to enjoy collecting high profile people for his network. He would organize these gatherings of intellectuals to talk about science and politics.

[Darrienne Woods]

Combine a scientist's need for money with Epstein's deep pockets and you've got the recipe for what Leslie Linkowski describes as an age old dilemma. Leslie is an emeritus professor at Indiana University who studies philanthropy.

[Leslie Linkowski]

What we see in the people seeking funds from him is a classic case of what we call tainted money. And the phrase literally goes back to the Bible. There's been a longstanding debate within philanthropy as to whether or not a person should take money from people who have committed one or another kind of misdeeds.

[Waylon Wong]

MIT, for example, accepted $750,000 in donations from Epstein after his 2008 conviction, according to an independent report that MIT commissioned. Some university officials argue that some society benefits if money from bad sources is put to good uses.

[Darrienne Woods]

Leslie says the MIT Epstein example also raises questions like, well, what if this tainted money is funding something unrelated to whatever the misdeed was? He says that could change how a recipient thinks about the reputational risk of accepting the money. For example, he says he'd advise an anti sex trafficking organisation not to take Epstein's money.

[Leslie Linkowski]

On the other hand, if you run a computer lab at mit, well, it's not as though you're doing anything that really in any way implicates Mr. Epstein. It's a much closer call for something like a computer lab.

[Waylon Wong]

And cash strapped scientists can find it difficult to turn down money from private donors. For one thing, this kind of funding typically comes with much less red tape than a government grant.

[Darrienne Woods]

Private donors can also facilitate lucrative connections with other wealthy or influential people. The Epstein emails show how he traded introductions, favors and advice with the powerful people in his orbit.

[Leslie Linkowski]

Epstein, I'm sure, knew what he was doing. He created kind of a human Ponzi scheme. So by having the opportunity to rub shoulders with other people with money, you think, well, gee, there's going to be a multiplier effect. Maybe I'll get some of his money, or maybe I can get Woody Allen to be a commencement speaker or any of these things.

[Waylon Wong]

Physicist Sean Carroll says the networking aspect was what appealed to him about the invite to the science conference on Epstein's island. And because he spent a lot of time thinking about time travel and multiverses, I had to ask him, is there like an alternate timeline? Like, is it an alternate timeline where you ended up there?

[Sean Carroll]

Yeah, I think there absolutely is. I mean, I was more attracted by the idea of just talking to other scientists in a nice environment. Even though I don't need a lot of money, I do need interactions with all sorts of different people, and that's valuable.

[Darrienne Woods]

Epstein knew the value of his vast network, and now some of the powerful people that willingly plugged into that network are starting to pay the costs.

[Waylon Wong]

This episode was produced by Vito Emanuel and engineered by Jimmy Keeley. It was fact checked by Sarah Juarez and edited by Alex Goldmark. Kicking Cannon is our show's editor and the indicator is a production of npr.

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