The Art of the deal ft. Beyoncé

Summary

Podcast Title: The Indicator from Planet Money
Episode: The Art of the Deal ft. Beyoncé
Host/Author: NPR
Release Date: May 19, 2025
Duration: Approximately 10 minutes

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Introduction

In the episode titled "The Art of the Deal ft. Beyoncé", NPR's The Indicator from Planet Money delves into the intricacies of negotiation, drawing parallels between high-stakes business deals and the dynamics within one of the world's most renowned music groups, Destiny's Child. Hosted by Darian Woods and Adrian Ma, the episode features insights from bargaining economist Darryl Fairweather, who recently published "Hate the Economic Cheat Codes for Life, Love and Work." The discussion not only explores Fairweather's personal negotiation experiences but also extracts valuable lessons applicable across various facets of life.

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Darryl Fairweather's Early Career Struggles

Darryl Fairweather begins by recounting her initial foray into the professional world post her economics Ph.D. (00:11 - 00:43). Joining a small consulting firm, she was lauded by her boss as a "workhorse" (00:21), a term that, while complimentary, hinted at the demanding nature of her role. Fairweather explains the grueling work hours, sometimes reaching up to 100 hours a week (00:37), and the ensuing burnout. This relentless pace fostered a growing sense of inequity, leading her to seek better compensation for her immense contributions.

Notable Quote:
Darryl Fairweather at 00:26: “He called me a workhorse and he said it with a smile on his face.”

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Inspiration from "Lean In" and the Decision to Negotiate

Influenced by Cheryl Sandberg's Lean In, Fairweather attended support groups emphasizing the importance of negotiation, especially for women in the workforce. Motivated to advocate for herself, she resolved to request a pay raise, embodying the proactive stance advocated in Sandberg's work (00:54 - 01:28).

Notable Quote:
Fairweather at 00:43: “I think that all of that stress, it just felt like I should be getting something more in return for how much I was working.”

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The Negotiation Attempt and Its Aftermath

Armed with determination, Fairweather approached her boss to discuss a raise. In her own words, she describes the anxiety of initiating the conversation, feeling it was a do-or-die scenario (03:03). However, her request was denied, with her boss deferring any raises to the end of the year (03:20). This left her feeling dejected and introspective about the reasons behind the rejection (03:33).

Notable Quote:
Fairweather at 03:03: “I was really just trying to psych myself up like, well, it's either this or you quit.”

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Destiny's Child: A Case Study in Negotiation

Drawing a parallel, Fairweather references Destiny's Child's internal negotiations involving Beyoncé and the group's management (03:35 - 05:21). As Beyoncé emerged as the standout star, other members felt sidelined and issued an ultimatum to either share the spotlight equally or part ways. However, this approach backfired, leading to the departure of two members while Beyoncé and Kelly Rowland continued under Matthew Knowles' management. The situation highlighted the pitfalls of misaligned objectives and assumptions in negotiations.

Notable Quote:
Fairweather at 04:10: “At first we started at raku.”

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Four Essential Lessons in Negotiation

From her experiences and the Destiny's Child analogy, Fairweather distills four pivotal negotiation lessons:

1. Identify Your Negotiating Partner's Objectives (05:35 - 06:17)
   Understand what the other party truly seeks. Avoid making assumptions about their intentions or desires.

   Notable Quote:
   Fairweather at 05:47: “Don't be like Latavia and Latoya. Don't be like me, and just assume what your opponent wants.”

2. Be Aware of Potential Information Withholding (06:36 - 07:05)
   Recognize that the other party may not disclose all relevant information, intentionally or otherwise.

   Notable Quote:
   Fairweather at 06:42: “Matthew Knowles... he probably gave them reason to believe that they were going to be equal members...”

3. Research Your Market Worth (07:05 - 07:28)
   Arm yourself with data on industry standards, ensuring you have a clear understanding of your value.

   Notable Quote:
   Fairweather at 07:13: “Just gathering information in general is a good approach.”

4. Secure a Backup Offer Before Making Ultimatums (07:28 - 08:00)
   Having an alternative position or offer strengthens your negotiating power and provides security.

   Notable Quote:
   Fairweather at 07:54: “It's typically better to go out and find your next job offer before you make that ultimatum.”

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Empowering Women and Minorities in Negotiations

Fairweather emphasizes the additional challenges faced by women and minorities in negotiation scenarios. She highlights societal biases that may label assertive negotiation tactics as aggressive, disproportionately penalizing these groups. To counteract this, she advocates for thorough preparation and demonstration of strong outside options, ensuring that negotiators are not undervalued or disregarded.

Notable Quote:
Fairweather at 08:14: “If women are perceived as being aggressive, they get penalized more than men tend to.”

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Conclusion: The Power of Information in Negotiation

Concluding the episode, Fairweather reiterates the paramount importance of information gathering in effective negotiation. By understanding both one's own value and the objectives of the negotiating partner, individuals can navigate negotiations more strategically and confidently.

Final Quote:
Fairweather at 08:53: “That's exactly right. Okay ladies, now let's get information.”

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Production Credits

• Produced by: Lily Quiros
• Engineered by: Kwesi Lee
• Fact-Checked by: Sierra Juarez
• Editing: Cake and Cannon

The Indicator from Planet Money is a production of NPR, offering listeners insightful analyses of economic topics in an accessible format.

Transcript

[NPR Host]

NPR.

[Darian Woods]

Darryl Fairweather's first job after her economics Ph.D. was at a small consulting firm. It was a lot of work, but her boss was complimentary.

[Darryl Fairweather]

He called me a workhorse and he said it with a smile on his face.

[Adrian Ma]

Okay, that's a little ominous.

[Darian Woods]

A double edged compliment.

[Adrian Ma]

Yeah. After several months of being a so called workhorse, Darryl said she started to feel exhausted.

[Darryl Fairweather]

I would be working like up to 100 hours a week and.

[Darian Woods]

A hundred hours a week?

[Darryl Fairweather]

Yeah. That was a tough deadline.

[Darian Woods]

That sounds unhealthy.

[Darryl Fairweather]

Yes. I mean it wasn't like that every week, but sometimes it got to be quite a lot. And I think that all of that stress, it just felt like I should be getting something more in return for how much I was working.

[Darian Woods]

Darrell had read Cheryl Sandberg's famous book on women in the workforce Lean in. In fact, she was going to a lean in circle support group for professionals. The main message, women should negotiate more. So she decided to lean in herself. Try to get a pay raise. This is the indicator from Planet Money. I'm Darian Woods.

[Adrian Ma]

And I'm Adrian Ma. Today on the show Bargaining economist Darrell Fairweather just released a whole book on negotiation. It's called Hate the Economic Cheat Codes for Life, Love and Work.

[Darian Woods]

And getting better at negotiation is important in so many aspects of life. Whether it's getting a raise at work or buying a house. Through to global trade deals, we hear Daryl Fairweather's negotiation lessons learned from her experience and from Beyonce.

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[NPR Host]

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[Darian Woods]

Lesson on negotiating started that day she asked for her raise.

[Darryl Fairweather]

I remember Being in my office, like trying to psych myself up to go and ask for a raise. Like, I wasn't happy at the job. So I was really just trying to psych myself up like, well, it's either this or you quit.

[Adrian Ma]

In her boss's office, Daryl talked about all the extra tasks she's been taking on, how she's been performing at a more senior level.

[Darryl Fairweather]

And he said no, and that raises will be negotiated at the end of the year.

[Darian Woods]

That's the policy in her mind. Darryl was giving her boss a take it or leave it deal and he left it.

[Darryl Fairweather]

I walked out of that pretty dejected.

[Darian Woods]

Darryl was trying to figure out why she couldn't get that raise. She thought back to a chapter of late 1990s R&B history that is kind of the perfect example. Daryl thought of the pitfalls of this lean in message of always be trying to negotiate for more.

[Darryl Fairweather]

Yeah, so I think one of the most famous negotiation fails that I know of is what happened with Destiny's Child.

[Adrian Ma]

At the time, Destiny's Child was a Beyonce Knowles, Kelly Rowland, Latavia Roberson and Latoya Luckett. The four piece broke through with their first number one single, Bills, Bills, Bills.

[NPR Host]

At first we started at raku.

[Darryl Fairweather]

Beyonce was starting to emerge as the breakout star, getting all the interviews, getting all of the attention. And they concluded that it was the management, Matthew Knowles, which is Beyonce's father, that was the reason that Beyonce was getting all this preferential treatment. So Latavia and Latoya came to the group and said, it's either us or it's Matthew Knowles. They issued an ultimatum.

[Darian Woods]

So a take it or leave it deal. Just like you had in your head when you went to your boss.

[Darryl Fairweather]

Yes, but that's where they made the miscalculation about what Beyonce and Matthew actually saw for the vision of the group, which was Beyonce being the breakout star and that they were more playing this role as backup singers.

[Darian Woods]

What Matthew had in his mind was Diana Ross and the Supremes, Michael Jackson and the Jackson 5. A History of Artists who had launched super successful solo careers off the back of a musical group.

[Darryl Fairweather]

I think Matthew Knowles actually had the economics right there because what oftentimes happens in entertainment or other industries that rely on popularity is that there are these superstars.

[Adrian Ma]

And so what happened is Beyonce and Kelly Rowland decided to stick with Matthew Knowles, while Latavia and Latoya found themselves out of the group.

[Darryl Fairweather]

I felt empathy for that situation because that's what I was as an entry level employee. I was just a backup backup singer in a sense. Like, I didn't have the standing to go and be negotiating or issuing ultimatums.

[Darian Woods]

Darryl says we can learn a lot from what Latavia and Latoya and she herself missed, and she has four main takeaways. First, try to identify your negotiating partner's objective.

[Darryl Fairweather]

Don't be like Latavia and Latoya. Don't be like me, and just assume what your opponent wants. Try to really dig in and understand what they want out of you.

[Adrian Ma]

Daryl thought back to that workhorse comment her boss gave her when she started. Like, what does a workhorse really mean?

[Darryl Fairweather]

They get the job done no matter how long it takes, no matter how hard it is, and they don't complain. That's what a workhorse does, and that's not who I am. I'll work hard, but I will, I will. Concerns if I have them the goal.

[Darian Woods]

Of Darryl's boss was to have employees who didn't complain. The very act of Darryl unexpectedly negotiating went against her boss's goals for his workplace. In hindsight, maybe she should have waited until the regular annual pay discussions. Or really, maybe she should have gone to another job entirely.

[Adrian Ma]

The second lesson, Darryl says, is to scrutinize whether your negotiating partner might be withholding information from you.

[Darryl Fairweather]

You know, Matthew Knowles, he might not have been exactly lying to Latavia and Latoya, but I think he probably gave them reason to believe that they were going to be equal members of Destiny's Child, when really it was Beyonce who was the star and my boss. I mean, he wasn't outright lying to me either. But I felt like I was signing up for a job where I would have different opportunities and different job environment than what I got.

[Darian Woods]

Third lesson, and this one's a classic for a good reason, is to do research on how much you are really worth in the market.

[Darryl Fairweather]

Just gathering information in general is a good approach. Just understanding what competitive pay rates are, how hard it would be for them to hire someone to replace you, is a good thing to understand. All that can kind of help you understand how the negotiation might play out.

[Adrian Ma]

In a pay negotiation, maybe that would be by seeing what other people at your experience level are getting paid at other places. One way to do this, and you can think of this as the fourth tip, if you're going to ratchet up the temperature by making an ultimatum with your employer, you could actually have another offer from somewhere else. It's concrete information and also a backup option if your negotiating partner calls your bluff.

[Darryl Fairweather]

It's typically better to go out and find your next job offer before you make that ultimatum.

[Darian Woods]

Darrell says this can be especially important for women and minorities who are kind of in this bind where people may underestimate their worth and yet by negotia that can be interpreted as aggressive.

[Darryl Fairweather]

If women are perceived as being aggressive, they get penalized more than men tend to. Also, just for any any group of people that are perceived to have worse options tend to do worse in negotiations because whoever they're negotiating against just assumes that whatever they give them is the best that they're going to get out there. So signaling what your outside options are, that your outside options are good, is a way for women and minorities to kind of counteract that and to go in armed with information so that you don't let somebody else tell you how much you're worth.

[Darian Woods]

When the words of Beyonce Knowles you need to get information.

[Darryl Fairweather]

That's exactly right. Okay ladies, now let's get information.

[NPR Host]

Okay ladies, now let's get information. Kuda me, you got some coordination.

[Adrian Ma]

This episode was produced by Lily Quiros with engineering by Kwesi Lee. It was fact checked by Sierra Juarez. Cake and Cannon edits the show and the indicators are production of npr.

[NPR Host]

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