The cautionary tale of a recovering day trading addict (Encore)

Summary

The Indicator from Planet Money – "The Cautionary Tale of a Recovering Day Trading Addict (Encore)"

Date: December 29, 2025
Hosts: Darian Woods & Waylon Wong
Guests: Chris Garver (recovering day trading addict), Dr. Camelia Kunin (Neuroeconomist, UNC Chapel Hill)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the blurry line between day trading and gambling, focusing on Chris Garver’s riveting journey from sensible investor to compulsive day trader. The catastrophic financial and emotional consequences he experienced, alongside insights from neuroeconomist Camelia Kunin, provide a window into the psychological dynamics at play when ordinary investing overlaps with addictive behavior.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chris Garver’s Descent into Day Trading Addiction

• Initial Sensible Investing
  • Chris started investing around 2010, preferring stocks over low-interest savings accounts.
  • "I had some savings and I thought there's no point in them being in, you know, savings accounts because the interest was so bad." (Chris Garver, 00:27)
• Shift to High-Risk Trades
  • Participation in online forums led him to riskier investments, including small volatile companies and leveraged contracts.
  • He made £80,000 (~$100,000) almost overnight on an oil discovery.
  • "In two days I'd made over £80,000. And I thought, right, you know, I can make some serious money here." (Chris Garver, 01:10)
• Rationalization and Secret Debt
  • Losses set in, and Chris resorted to funding trades by maxing out personal and even his wife's credit cards (without her knowledge).
  • "At one point, I was spinning nine of my own personal credit cards and another four in my wife's name, which she didn't even know about." (Chris Garver, 03:41)

2. The Vicious Cycle: Win, Lose, Repeat

• Attempts to Recover
  • By 2019, Chris owed about $110,000. He paid back his debts but failed to step away from trading.
  • "What I promised to myself wasn't relevant anymore because I was an amazing trader again, and I carried on." (Chris Garver, 04:11)
• Escalation during COVID
  • After losing his job, he day traded full time, eventually amassing £145,000 in debt.
  • His behavior became secretive and compulsive—checking market alerts even while driving.
  • "I remember driving on a freeway with my iPhone... looking if an alert comes up, I mean, that's how wired I had become. It was insanity." (Chris Garver, 04:27)

3. Personal and Relationship Toll

• Emotional Fallout
  • Coming clean to his wife brought deep shame and guilt, along with marital trust issues.
  • "She was shocked. She was annoyed as hell, you know, when I told her that I'd opened four credit cards in her name without her even knowing." (Chris Garver, 05:09)
• Confronting Addiction
  • At first, Chris didn’t see himself as a gambling addict because he avoided typical gambling venues.

4. The Science: When Investing Becomes Gambling

• Gamification of Trading Apps
  • "These apps, basically, they're like a lottery on steroids... You have your phone in your hand all times, and I think a lot of people can get into trouble." (Camelia Kunin, 06:15)
• Brain Chemistry and Payoff Potential
  • Humans are drawn to actions with a low-probability, high-reward potential—the same mechanisms that drive gambling.
  • "People love the chance of having a huge payoff, even though that chance is tiny. Right. We are sort of hardwired to fixate on these huge payoffs." (Camelia Kunin, 06:59)
  • Investors get fixated on “chasing the win,” especially after large gains.
• Options Trading as Ultra-Leverage
  • The hosts break down how options can create all-or-nothing payoffs, heightening risk and psychological addiction. (08:00–08:55)
  • "People aren't just putting $5 on the line. They're buying up lots of options, like maybe 1,000 of them for $5,000." (Waylon Wong, 08:47)

5. The Reality: Most Day Traders Lose

• Against the Pros
  • Retail traders are up against sophisticated institutional investors and often lose big.
  • "The institutional investors on the other side of the trades will take advantage of that." (Camelia Kunin, 09:15)
• Consequences and Recovery
  • Chris sought help, disclosed his debt, received family support, and worked toward recovery.
  • "There is a route out of that and that you can come out and basically recover from it." (Chris Garver, 09:37)

6. Paying it Forward: Advocacy and Awareness

• Project Well Being
  • Chris now runs workshops on gambling awareness and helps companies support at-risk employees.
  • "People just don't realize how much of a situation, an issue that it is out there." (Chris Garver, 10:00)
• Ongoing Struggles
  • Chris is still repaying his debt but is committed to change, focusing on advocacy rather than markets.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chris’s Big Win:
  "In two days I'd made over £80,000. And I thought, right, you know, I can make some serious money here." (Chris Garver, 01:10)
• Secretive Behavior:
  "At one point, I was spinning nine of my own personal credit cards and another four in my wife's name, which she didn't even know about." (Chris Garver, 03:41)
• On Hitting Rock Bottom:
  "I remember driving on a freeway with my iPhone in a cradle... looking if an alert comes up, I mean, that's how wired I had become. It was insanity." (Chris Garver, 04:27)
• On Gamification of Trading:
  "These apps, basically, they're like a lottery on steroids, right? They're very exciting, really easy to use." (Camelia Kunin, 06:15)
• Understanding Gambling Addiction via Trading:
  "I didn't bet on horse racing, on sports betting... but day trading or buying crypto... that can be gambling." (Chris Garver followed by Waylon Wong, 05:51–06:02)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:23–01:22: Chris's introduction to investing and first big win.
• 03:25–04:27: Losing streak, mounting debts, and progression to full-time trading.
• 05:02–06:02: The emotional impact, confession to spouse, realization of addiction.
• 06:15–07:50: Expert insight on trading apps, addiction, and brain science.
• 08:00–08:55: Explaining options trading and its risks.
• 09:26–10:09: Addressing recovery, founding Project Well Being, and spreading awareness.

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Conclusion

Through Chris Garver’s candid account and Dr. Camelia Kunin’s expert analysis, this episode delivers a sharp, accessible look at how modern trading platforms can turn ordinary investing into compulsive gambling. The conversation underscores the psychological pitfalls of chasing big payoffs, the financial risks unsuspecting traders face, and the importance of awareness and support for those struggling with trading addiction.

Transcript

[Darian Woods]

Hey everyone, Darian woods here. Happy holidays. For the next week, we are running some of our favorite shows from this year. Today's episode is about gambling addiction and the stock market.

[Chris Garver]

NPR.

[Darian Woods]

Chris Garver got interested in the stock market around 2010.

[Chris Garver]

I had some savings and I thought there's no point in them being in, you know, savings accounts because the interest was so bad.

[Waylon Wong]

Chris started with what he describes as a sensible investment strategy. He bought shares in a range of large companies listed on the main British stock exchange.

[Chris Garver]

But the deeper I got into it, you start going into forums and people start recommending stocks and you see some of the returns that were happening. And then that kind of opened up a another world.

[Darian Woods]

It was a world of buying smaller, more volatile companies or using special trading contracts in ways that magnify your gains or losses. Chris remembers investing in one company prospecting.

[Chris Garver]

For oil news hit of a new discovery. And in two days I'd made over £80,000. And I thought, right, you know, I can make some serious money here.

[Waylon Wong]

£80,000 is about US$100,000. And Chris saw what he was doing as investing, an intellectual hobby on the side of his day job in digital media. What he didn't think was that his trading could be gambling. This is the indicator from Planet Money. I'm Waylon Wong.

[Darian Woods]

And I'm Darian Woods. Buying and selling quickly on the stock market is known as day trading. And with the dawn of apps like Robinhood and Webull, winning or losing fortunes is easier than ever. So is day trading gambling. Today on the show we hear Chris's story and we speak with a neuroeconomist about the human brain on day trading.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Support for NPR and the following message come from Edward Jones. A rich life isn't always a straight line. Unexpected turns can bring new possibilities. With a hundred years of experience navigating ups and downs, Edward Jones can help guide you. Let's find your rich together. Edward Jones Member SIPC this message comes from Vanguard. Capturing value in the bond market is not easy. That's why Vanguard offers a suite of over 80 institutional quality bond funds actively managed by a 200 person global team of sector specialists, analysts and traders. They're designed for financial advisors looking to give their clients consistent results year in and year out. See the [e-mail] audio that's vanguard.com audio all investing is subject to risk. Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distributor this message comes from Charles Schwab.

[Camelia Kunin]

When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

[Darian Woods]

After his big win, Chris Scarver started to lose money on his investments. He would sometimes win back money, but over the next few years, he had eventually whittled away all of his savings. So Chris desperately tried to fund even more trading.

[Chris Garver]

At one point, I was spinning nine of my own personal credit cards and another four in my wife's name, which she didn't even know about.

[Waylon Wong]

By 2019, the losses were adding up. Chris now owed the equivalent of around $110,000. So he made a vow. He would focus on disciplined bets, wipe away those losses, and get out of day trading. And by mid-2020, he did achieve the first part, paying back his debts. But getting out of day trading, not so much.

[Chris Garver]

What I promised to myself wasn't relevant anymore because I was an amazing trader again, and I carried on.

[Darian Woods]

In fact, after being laid off from his day job due to the COVID pandemic, Chris started day trading full time.

[Chris Garver]

I went for it, and then, unfortunately, within two years, all those profits had gone and I was £145,000 in debt. My wife actually thought I was having an affair because she could see I was being secretive. I wasn't being myself. I remember driving on a freeway with my iPhone in a cradle, you know, with the markets live, you know, prices on my handset. And I'm driving and I'm looking over and looking if an alert comes up, I mean, that's how wired I had become. It was insanity.

[Waylon Wong]

Day trading was now an out of control compulsion. Chris called his brother, who urged him to come clean to his wife.

[Chris Garver]

That was so hard because there were feelings of sense of guilt, of shame, of embarrassment. You know, I mean, I'm supposed to be, you know, the breadwinner winning male who provides for the family. And my wife, I mean, she was shocked. She was annoyed as hell, you know, when I told her that I'd opened four credit cards in her name without her even knowing. I mean, you know, there's that whole trust thing in a marriage, and I blew that wide open.

[Darian Woods]

Chris's wife told him to get help. He had some form of a gambling addiction. But in day trading, I didn't think.

[Chris Garver]

I was addicted to gambling. I didn't bet on horse racing, on sports betting. I didn't go into casinos. I didn't bet on poker. I didn't bet.

[Waylon Wong]

But day trading or buying crypto or foreign currencies, that can be gambling that's how a lot of people use apps like Robinhood or webull. Camelia Kunin is a finance professor at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.

[Camelia Kunin]

These apps, basically, they're like a lottery on steroids, right? They're very exciting, really easy to use. You have your phone in your hand all times, and I think a lot of people can get into trouble.

[Darian Woods]

Camelia points out that most investing is pretty boring. You buy a bunch of companies for, say, $10,000, and then if they do well, it's might take you a year to gain maybe 10% if you're lucky, $1,000 if they do poorly, well, then you usually lose some, but not all of your money. It's really quite far away from an occasional lotto ticket.

[Waylon Wong]

But any kind of bet where there's a small chance of a huge payoff can be tempting. That also applies to the stock market.

[Camelia Kunin]

There are studies where, you know, we put people in brain scanners and they're given the opportunity to. To invest in assets. But we can vary in that. In the experiment, we can vary just how much they look like lotteries or not. And what you find is that people do. A lot of people have this even in the brain, people love the chance of having a huge payoff, even though that chance is tiny. Right. We are sort of hardwired to fixate on these huge payoffs.

[Darian Woods]

In fact, there's evidence that people are attracted to investing in companies that have had a giant gain, even if it's just once.

[Camelia Kunin]

Some investors get hooked on the idea that this could happen again. Right. That they could get this huge return again. So these stocks that have a tiny chance, but for a very, very high payoff, those stocks can attract a lot of people.

[Waylon Wong]

And further fueling this gamification of the stock market is what's called options. These are special contracts that give you the opportunity to buy or sell stocks at a certain price.

[Darian Woods]

All right, so, Waylon, let's explain how these work with what's called a call option.

[Waylon Wong]

Let's do it.

[Darian Woods]

Okay, so instead of paying, say, $200 for one Amazon share, you pay, say, $5 for the option to buy the Amazon share for $200 in the future. And so if Amazon's share price goes to $250, that's very good for you.

[Waylon Wong]

Yeah, that would be amazing. It would mean I could now pay $200 for an Amazon share worth 250. So it's like I win $50.

[Darian Woods]

Yeah. So you've basically made 10 times your money minus that $5 you paid for the option. But on the other hand, if the share price of Amazon goes down.

[Waylon Wong]

No, don't say it.

[Darian Woods]

That $5 call option could be worthless.

[Waylon Wong]

Surely that would never happen to me. I'm an investing genius.

[Darian Woods]

Yeah, you are.

[Waylon Wong]

And of course, people aren't just putting $5 on the line. They're buying up lots of options, like maybe 1,000 of them for $5,000.

[Darian Woods]

Yeah. And just like gambling options can give you all or nothing payoffs, Chris played.

[Waylon Wong]

With similar ways of trying to magnify his wins. What it ended up doing was magnifying his losses. Like most day traders, he was playing against the pros, basically handing over his money to professional investors.

[Camelia Kunin]

The average investor just doesn't have the knowledge. They don't understand all of these payoff structures. And the institutional investors on the other side of the trades will take advantage of that.

[Darian Woods]

And after Chris sought help, he realized he had a day trading addiction. His brother lent him some money to help with his debts and he told the banks everything that had happened.

[Chris Garver]

I guess it was kind of a relief in some ways for that to happen. There is a route out of that and that you can come out and basically recover from it.

[Waylon Wong]

A year later, Chris founded an organization called Project well Being. It runs gambling awareness workshops and helps companies develop policies and support for employees struggling with gambling.

[Chris Garver]

For a lot of people, it's a real eye opener. People just don't realize how much of a situation, an issue that it is out there.

[Darian Woods]

Chris is still married, but he still owes the banks a lot of money. And through his work, not the markets, he hopes to pay his debts back. This episode was produced by Angel Carrera, so the engineering by Kwesi Lee was fact checked by Sarah Juarez. Paddy Hirsch edited this episode and Kate Concannon edits the show. The indicator is a production of npr.

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