The Indicator from Planet Money

Episode: The Economic Challenges Facing Men Without College Degrees
Date: December 27, 2025
Host: Darian Woods
Guest: Richard Reeves, President of the American Institute for Boys and Men

Episode Overview

This episode dives into a critical but often overlooked issue: the economic and social challenges facing men without college degrees in the United States. Darian Woods interviews Richard Reeves, author and president of the American Institute for Boys and Men, to discuss the stagnation—and in some cases decline—in wages and employment opportunities for working-class men, how these trends are shaped by shifts in the labor market and cultural expectations, and potential solutions moving forward.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Are Men Earning More Now Than They Used To?

• Complexity of Measuring Wage Progress

  • The answer depends on what years are compared, age ranges, and how inflation is accounted for.
  • Quote: “There are no simple answers in social science or economics. I sometimes feel it's a bit like… the Groucho Marx quote about, well, these are my principles; if you don't like them, I have others.”
    — Richard Reeves [00:33]

• Methodology

  • Reeves prefers using 1979 as the starting year due to improved wage data and significant changes in measurement.
  • Focuses on men aged 25 and up to account for extended working ages and remove distortions from those still in education.
  • Critically, divides data by educational attainment.
  • Quote: “The real story here is it depends which men you’re asking about.”
    — Richard Reeves [03:11]

• Findings (1979-2023, men age 25+):

  • 4-year college degree: Wages up 38%
  • Some college/associate degree: Up 3% (essentially flat)
  • High school degree: Down 7%
  • Less than high school: Down 11%
  • Fewer men are in those lowest categories today, yet the class gap has widened dramatically.
  • Quote: “Men with a four year college degree have seen healthy wage growth over the last few decades. But for men without a four year college degree, wages have been at best flat. And for many of those, gone down.”
    — Richard Reeves [04:32]

2. Inflation Adjustment: PCE vs. CPI

• Reeves advocates using the Personal Consumption Expenditure (PCE) index as the most accurate inflation deflator for wages, capturing real buying power and substitution effects in consumer choices.

  • Quote: “PCE is the best for that. CPI is not very good for that and tends to actually give a gloomier picture of wage growth.”
    — Richard Reeves [05:11]

• Substitution example:

  • If apples become expensive but pears are cheap, consumers switch—PCE accounts for this, CPI largely does not.
  • Memorable Moment: “We’re in a full nerd out now. So this is our happy place, right?”
    — Richard Reeves [06:01]

3. Causes of Stagnation & Decline

• Economic Shifts

  • Loss of well-paid, low-education jobs in sectors like manufacturing, steel, and mining due to automation, free trade, and a shift toward a more service-oriented economy.
  • Structural Change: Women and workers of color gaining access to jobs previously reserved for white men—increasing equality, but intensifying competition and eroding job premiums.
  • Unions have weakened; international competition has increased.
  • Many men today are worse off, in real wage terms, compared to their fathers, especially those from lower-income backgrounds.

• Relativity and Social Comparison

  • Reeves observes the psychological impact of downward mobility:
    “A lot of guys out there… are actually poorer than their dads, even though they've got at least as much education as their dads had. And I think psychologically that does have quite a big impact on people.”
    — Richard Reeves [07:57]

4. Stagnant Household Incomes & Cultural Impact

• Women's Earnings Counterbalance

  • Stagnant/declining male earnings have been partially offset by increases in women's earnings and rising labor force participation.
  • Quote: “Women's increased earnings and employment has held up working class households in a way that they would have been plummeting otherwise.”
    — Richard Reeves [09:13]

• Provider Role Still Central For Many Men

  • Many men, especially with less education, still see themselves as primary breadwinners—a role fewer can now fulfill.

  • Memorable Moment: “There's a certain cultural tragedy there, which is that the men who are most attached to this idea of their role as an economic provider are the ones who are now least able to provide it.”
    — Richard Reeves [11:38]

  • Those with higher education have more flexible identities—fathers, community members, etc.—but working-class men are more likely to equate self-worth with earning power.

5. Class and Elite Blindspots

• Elite Disconnection
  • Many educated elites see high-status men and assume broadly positive male outcomes, neglecting the challenges faced by less-educated men, including Black and Hispanic men.
  • Quote: “The inability to see properly across class lines has made too many elite Americans blind to the gendered nature of a lot of what's happening now, especially… men with less economic power, working class men, but also black men too, and Hispanic men.”
    — Richard Reeves [12:46]

6. Male Labor Force Participation Decline

• Sharp decline in participation among men without college degrees.
  • 1979: 90% employed; 2023: 81% employed for non-college men.
  • For college-educated men: still about 93%.
• Reason for Non-Participation Differs by Class
  • College-educated men often out for positive reasons (more education, early retirement, caregiving).
  • Non-college men mostly cite sickness/disability or health problems.
  • Drug and substance abuse among working-class men has risen significantly.
  • Quote: “Half of them say the reason they're not in the labor force… is because they're sick or disabled. That's the single biggest reason.”
    — Richard Reeves [16:18]

7. Solutions: Economic and Cultural

• Policy Recommendations:

  • Increase infrastructure investment (creates well-paid jobs not requiring degrees).
  • Dramatically expand vocational training, apprenticeships, and trade schools—a sector the US underinvests in relative to other advanced economies.
  • A four-year college isn’t the right path for many, especially men; viable alternatives must be funded and respected.

• Men in ‘HEAL’ Jobs (Health, Education, Administration, Literacy):

  • Need for more men in growing, people-oriented professions (nursing, teaching, counseling), where male participation is falling.

  • Quote: “We’ve done a pretty good job of getting more women into traditionally male jobs. We’ve done a lousy job of helping men into more female jobs.”
    — Richard Reeves [18:18]

  • There's a "triple tragedy": decent jobs going unfilled, professions missing out on male perspectives, and men missing career opportunities.

• Broader Redefinition of Masculinity:

  • Essential to Wert men's worth not solely by income but also through fatherhood, community service, and non-economic contributions.
  • Quote: “Our tribe still needs you, even if it’s in a different and new way. And that’s a much bigger challenge than just economic policy. That’s a cultural shift that we are only partway through.”
    — Richard Reeves [21:36]

8. Shifting the Conversation: Richard Reeves’s Book Journey

• Reeves struggled to find a publisher for his 2022 book, Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do about It, due to fears he’d be perceived as reactionary.
• The book found success, eventually landing on Barack Obama’s 2024 reading list.
• Quote: “If you talk about the problems of boys and men, everyone will think you're a frothing at the mouth conservative. But… if you basically say the only people allowed to talk about boys and men's issues are frothing at the mouth conservatives, you can't really complain that they're the only people talking about it.”
  — Richard Reeves [22:44]
• Pledge: to keep the conversation evidence-based, reasonable, and non-zero sum.

Notable Quotes & Timestamped Highlights

• "There are no simple answers in social science or economics."
  — Richard Reeves [00:33]

• "Men with a four year college degree have seen healthy wage growth ... But for men without a four year college degree, wages have been at best flat. And for many of those, gone down."
  — Richard Reeves [04:32]

• "One of the really difficult cultural disconnects right now is ... many, many fewer men today are able to fill this role of the economic provider."
  — Richard Reeves [09:54]

• "The inability to see properly across class lines has made too many elite Americans blind to the gendered nature of a lot of what's happening now, especially ... men with less economic power."
  — Richard Reeves [12:46]

• "We’ve done a pretty good job of getting more women into traditionally male jobs. We've done a lousy job of helping men into more female jobs."
  — Richard Reeves [18:18]

• "Our tribe still needs you, even if it’s in a different and new way. And that’s a much bigger challenge than just economic policy. That’s a cultural shift that we are only partway through."
  — Richard Reeves [21:36]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:33] – The challenge of defining and measuring changes in men’s earnings
• [03:11] – Reeve’s approach: 1979 as the baseline, importance of education level
• [04:32] – Data: Wage gains/losses by education segment
• [05:11] – Why PCE inflation is preferred over CPI
• [06:40] – Economic shifts and the loss of well-paid, low-education jobs
• [09:13] – How increased women’s earnings have stabilized households
• [11:38] – Why provider role expectations are a “cultural tragedy” for working-class men
• [12:46] – Elite disconnect from the working-class male experience
• [14:41] – Trends in male labor force participation and reasons for men not seeking work
• [17:16] – Policy solutions: infrastructure, vocational pathways
• [18:18] – Scarcity of men in HEAL professions; triple tragedy
• [21:36] – Need to redefine masculinity and men’s roles
• [22:44] – Reeves on the risk of ceding discussion of men’s issues to reactionary voices

Conclusion

Richard Reeves and Darian Woods provide a nuanced, compassionate examination of the troubling trends faced by men—especially those without college degrees—in today’s economy. The episode calls for both practical policy reforms and a collective cultural reset, shifting how we value men’s contributions to society. For listeners seeking data, analysis, and a hopeful but realistic path forward, this conversation is a compelling, accessible entry point to an urgent topic.