The fired labor economist who couldn't get unemployment

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: The Indicator from Planet Money
Episode: The fired labor economist who couldn't get unemployment
Air Date: June 8, 2026
Main Theme:
This episode explores the surprising and telling difficulties within the U.S. unemployment insurance (UI) system, told through the personal experience of Erica McIntarfer—former commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics and arguably the most famous unemployed person in America in 2025—who was unable to access unemployment benefits. The conversation broadens to analyze structural flaws in the UI system, outdated policies, benefit inadequacies, and innovative ideas for reform.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Erica McIntarfer’s Struggle With Unemployment Benefits

• Identity verification failures:
  • After being fired by President Trump, Erica McIntarfer tried to file for UI in Maryland but repeatedly failed the identity verification process using the state’s required mobile app.
  • Efforts included changing lighting, reinstalling the app, and seeking help on Reddit, but always resulted in failure to register her ID.
  • (00:41) Erica McIntarfer: “It would just sort of spin and then die and say, failure to, like, register your picture. And I tried changing the lighting. I tried deleting the app and reinstall. I went on Reddit.”
• State response:
  • When she called for help, the unemployment office told her to just keep trying the app.
  • Frustration grew over the lack of alternative verification methods.
  • (00:59) Erica McIntarfer: “It was so frustrating that I got stuck on the identity verification step because I was like, listen, Google me, let's get on a zoom. You can look at my face. I am literally on the front page of the New York Times.”

2. Systemic Flaws in Unemployment Insurance

• Outdated design:
  • The UI system was established during the Great Depression, designed for a manufacturing economy where layoffs were often temporary.
  • (03:37) Catherine Ann Edwards: “They were trying to make it less lucrative for companies to lay off workers whenever business got slow by building in a benefit for those unemployed workers that those employers had to pay for.”
• Service economy mismatch:
  • Today’s workforce is mostly in services, where layoffs don’t typically result in rehiring by the same employer, making the old model poorly suited for current realities.
• State-by-state inconsistencies:
  • Each state runs its own UI program, resulting in vast differences in eligibility, benefit duration, and amounts.
  • (04:36) Catherine Ann Edwards: “Can you imagine you have the same job and the same wage and the same salary, and you both get laid off on the same day, and they get four times the unemployment as you. Can you imagine if Social Security looked like that? I mean, people would riot.”

3. Application Barriers and Access

• Technical barriers:
  • Mobile verification apps can be a major bottleneck; other options (like video calls or in-person visits) exist in some states but aren’t always well-communicated.
  • After two weeks of unsuccessful attempts, Erica stopped trying as she started receiving job offers.
  • (05:40) Erica McIntarfer: “About a fourth of people who qualify for UI never successfully file a claim. I was one of those. I threw in the towel. Apologies to anyone at the Maryland Department of Labor who's hearing this story for the first time on the radio.”
• Capacity issues:
  • Erica emphasizes it’s not a slight to the people working in unemployment agencies, but a matter of inadequate state capacity.

4. Insufficient Benefit Levels

• Benefit caps lag inflation:
  • Most states haven’t raised benefit maximums in line with inflation, leading to inadequate support.
  • Benefits are based on previous earnings, but do not reflect modern expenses, especially for higher earners in expensive regions.
  • (06:39) Erica McIntarfer: “Most people spend 30% of their income on shelter. So your UI is covering one third of your housing cost. If you were laid off as a software developer in California, that is a very low insurance rate for earnings.”

5. Proposals for Overhaul

• Federalization:
  • Move toward a nationwide, federally managed system to standardize benefits and access.
• Three-tiered structure:
  • More generous benefits for the first 6–12 weeks, tapering off for long-term unemployed with added supports like training and relocation assistance.
  • (07:12) Catherine Ann Edwards: “At every stage, you're eligible kind of for the next level of benefits that is then designed to meet your unemployment situation.”
• Broader eligibility:
  • Let anyone out of work (even new graduates) qualify, removing employers as gatekeepers.

6. Addressing Stigma and Efficiency

• Stereotypes about UI recipients:
  • Collecting UI is often stigmatized as laziness, but data shows any lengthening of unemployment from benefits is marginal.
  • (08:06) Catherine Ann Edwards: “How much longer is not really agreed upon, but it's marginal, like it could be a week or two. The worry about that is somewhat overblown because it's a time-limited temporary benefit to people who just had an income cut.”
• Economic efficiency:
  • Allowing time for proper job matching through adequate benefits increases productivity and overall economic efficiency.
  • (08:33) Catherine Ann Edwards: “You don't have to like unemployed people. In fact, go on hating them. This is just about a more efficient, productive economy.”

7. Lighthearted Conclusion

• Suggestions of economist tiaras and pageants—and a nod to “America 250.”
  • (09:03) Wayland Wong: “America 250.”
  • (09:06) Adrienne Ma: “I think they should start handing out these economists tiaras and sashes. I think that would be a good look for the profession.”
  • (09:11) Wayland Wong: “You think we should have economist pageants? Yeah, it's like now for the talent portion, you're going to draw a graph. So many graphs, so many graphs.”

8. Where is Erica Now?

• Erica McIntarfer is now working at Stanford University, studying economic preparation for AI-era disruptions. She believes modernizing UI should be central to that conversation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• (00:59) Erica McIntarfer: “It was so frustrating that I got stuck on the identity verification step because I was like, listen, Google me, let's get on a zoom. You can look at my face. I am literally on the front page of the New York Times.”
• (04:36) Catherine Ann Edwards: “Can you imagine… you both get laid off on the same day, and they get four times the unemployment as you. Can you imagine if Social Security looked like that? … People would riot.”
• (05:40) Erica McIntarfer: “About a fourth of people who qualify for UI never successfully file a claim. I was one of those. I threw in the towel.”
• (06:39) Erica McIntarfer: “Most people spend 30% of their income on shelter. So your UI is covering one third of your housing cost. … That is a very low insurance rate for earnings.”
• (08:33) Catherine Ann Edwards: “You don't have to like unemployed people. In fact, go on hating them. This is just about a more efficient, productive economy.”

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------| | 00:11 | Erica’s struggle with Maryland’s UI system | | 03:06 | Catherine Ann Edwards’ core critique of UI | | 04:36 | State-by-state benefit disparities | | 05:40 | Erica gives up on her UI claim | | 06:39 | Inadequacy of benefit levels for high earners | | 07:12 | Proposal for federalized, tiered system | | 08:06 | Stigma and duration of unemployment benefits | | 08:33 | Efficiency argument for robust UI | | 09:11 | Economist tiaras, “America 250”, and wrap-up |

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Tone and Language

The episode blends a straightforward, sometimes wry tone, balancing personal frustration with rigorous economic critique and flashes of humor. The hosts and guests speak candidly, both about the maddening bureaucracy and about the optimism for a more functional future system.

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Summary Takeaway

Erica McIntarfer’s personal fiasco with the UI system underscores broad, longstanding weaknesses—technological barriers, outdated structures, inadequate benefits, and arbitrary state variations. Proposed solutions focus on modernizing and federalizing the system for greater equity, efficiency, and resilience—especially crucial as the economy faces disruptive changes ahead.

Transcript

[Catherine Ann Edwards]

Npr.

[Wayland Wong]

In August of 2025, Erica McIntarfer lost her job. So she did what a lot of newly unemployed people do. She went to apply for unemployment benefits. And early in the process, she had to verify her identity in the state

[Erica McIntarfer]

that I was applying. It's an app that you download on your phone, you take a picture of your license, and then you take a selfie and the software verifies that it's you.

[Adrienne Ma]

Seems simple enough, but Erica actually had a lot of trouble uploading a photo of her license to this app.

[Erica McIntarfer]

It would just sort of spin and then die and say, failure to, like, register your picture. And I tried changing the lighting. I tried deleting the app and reinstall. I went on Reddit.

[Wayland Wong]

Erica called the state unemployment office. They told her to just keep trying the app.

[Erica McIntarfer]

It was so frustrating that I got stuck on the identity verification step because I was like, listen, Google me, let's get on a zoom. You can look at my face. I am literally on the front page of the New York Times.

[Adrienne Ma]

Yeah, that's because Erica was arguably the most famous unemployed person in America at the time. President Trump had fired her from her job as commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. This is the indicator from Planet Money. I'm Adrienne Ma.

[Wayland Wong]

And I'm Wayland Wong. Economists like erica say the U.S. unemployment insurance system is badly in need of improvement. Today on the show, we diagnose what's wrong with the current system and hear some ideas on how to fix it. Plus, we learn if Erica ever got that app to work.

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[Adrienne Ma]

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[Adrienne Ma]

The baseline problem with the American unemployment insurance system is that it's underfunded and outdated. That's according to economist Catherine Ann Edwards.

[Catherine Ann Edwards]

I think the real, probably most succinct criticism of the unemployment insurance today is that we can do so much better.

[Wayland Wong]

The current system is funded by employers who pay both federal and state taxes. When a worker loses their job and files a successful claim, they receive a payment that's based on what they were earning before, and each state runs its own program.

[Adrienne Ma]

This system came out of the Great Depression. Catherine says employers were asked to fund unemployment insurance so that they would be dissuaded from laying off workers.

[Catherine Ann Edwards]

They they were trying to make it less lucrative for companies to lay off workers whenever business got slow by building in a benefit for those unemployed workers that those employers had to pay for.

[Wayland Wong]

But one problem, Catherine says, is that this system was created with manufacturing workers in mind. And decades ago, it was typical for employers to lay off people during slow times and rehire them when business picked up again.

[Adrienne Ma]

Today, the US Economy is more oriented towards services than manufacturing. And people who get laid off are not usually expecting to return to that job. They're looking for a new employer or even a new career.

[Wayland Wong]

So that's one problem with the current system. Here's another one. Because each state runs its own program, there is a lot of variation in how workers qualify for unemployment, how long the benefit lasts, and how much money they get. Catherine says, let's say you and your work bestie are employed by the same company, but you work in one state and your friend is in another.

[Catherine Ann Edwards]

No, it's y'.

[Wayland Wong]

All.

[Catherine Ann Edwards]

I mean, it's criminal. I mean, can you imagine you have the same job and the same wage and the same salary, and you both get laid off on the same day, and they get four times the unemployment as you. Can you imagine if Social Security looked like that? I mean, people would riot.

[Adrienne Ma]

So depending on the state, there can be significant differences in how much unemployment benefits workers get. There's also a range of experiences with the application process. Remember Erica McIntarfer, the. The economist who was famously fired by the Trump administration? She couldn't get the mobile app to work when she tried uploading a photo of her driver's license and she was filing for unemployment in Maryland. Erica said when she called the state unemployment office, she was told the mobile app was the only way.

[Wayland Wong]

We reached out to Maryland's Department of Labor, spokeswoman Dinah Winick told us that the identity verification step is a relatively new part of the process. She also said the state does offer other options, like video calls or visiting an office in person.

[Adrienne Ma]

Either way, Erica says she tried using the mobile app for two weeks, but by then she was getting job offers.

[Erica McIntarfer]

I was becoming less anxious about how long I might be unemployed. About a fourth of people who qualify for UI never successfully file a claim. I was one of those. I threw in the towel. Apologies to anyone at the Maryland Department of Labor who's hearing this story for the first time on the radio. It's. It's state capacity issues. It's no slight on the people who work in this system.

[Wayland Wong]

Capacity aside, Erica flags another problem. Workers aren't getting enough money. There are caps on benefits, and Erica says in most states these caps haven't kept up with inflation. And like we said before, the payouts are based on a worker's prior wages. Erica says that today the benefits aren't matching the reality of workers expenses.

[Adrienne Ma]

Yeah. For example, Erica says the median salary for a software developer in California is $170,000 a year. If they get laid off, unemployment benefits would replace just 10 to 13% of their income.

[Erica McIntarfer]

Just to frame that, like, Most people spend 30% of their income on shelter. So your UI is covering one third of your housing cost. If you were laid off as a software developer in California, that is a very low insurance rate for earnings.

[Adrienne Ma]

She says federalizing the system more would make funding and benefits more consistent across states. And economist Catherine Ann Edwards is also in favor of a more federal structure. She envisions three tiers, depending on how long someone's been unemployed.

[Catherine Ann Edwards]

At every stage, you're eligible kind of for the next level of benefits that is then designed to meet your unemployment situation.

[Wayland Wong]

The benefits would be most generous at the beginning, but be capped at six to 12 weeks. Workers facing longer term unemployment would get less money, but additional services like training and assistance with relocating.

[Adrienne Ma]

Another big change Catherine proposes is that a much larger pool of workers would be eligible for benefits. Today. Employers are the gatekeepers. They certify whether someone qualifies for unemployment. Catherine wants anyone who's out of work to qualify, even a college graduate who can't afford a job.

[Wayland Wong]

And Catherine believes there's a long held stigma around unemployment. People who collect this benefit are often painted as lazy or taking advantage of government generosity. And she acknowledges that people who receive money when they're out of work do tend to be unemployed for longer.

[Catherine Ann Edwards]

How much longer is not really agreed upon, but it's marginal, like it could be a week or two. The worry about that is somewhat overblown because it's a time limited temporary benefit to people who just had an income cut.

[Adrienne Ma]

The way Katherine sees it, if the government gives unemployed people the money they need to cover their expenses, they'll have the breathing room to find a new job that suits them. And the better the match between the job seeker and the job, the more productive that worker will be.

[Catherine Ann Edwards]

The way that we treat unemployed people is if you lose your job, we expect you to start over, when in fact starting over is a very costly, costly process in our economy. And so this is a way to essentially make our economy more efficient. And so then I get to put on my little like economist tiara and sash and say like, hey, you don't have to like unemployed people. In fact, go on hating them. This is just about a more efficient, productive economy.

[Wayland Wong]

And then cue the music.

[Catherine Ann Edwards]

And then the American flag is like flapping behind you.

[Wayland Wong]

America 250.

[Adrienne Ma]

I think they should start handing out these economists tiaras in sashes. I think that would be a good look for the profession.

[Wayland Wong]

You think we should have economist pageants? Yeah, it's like now for the talent portion, you're going to draw a graph. So many graphs, so many graphs. And if you're wondering what happened to Erica McIntar, the fired head of the BLS, she's now at Stanford University and one of the topics she's working on is how to prepare the economy for AI related disruptions. She says overhauling the unemployment insurance system should be part of that conversation. This episode was produced by Julia Ritchie and Cooper Katz McKim with engineering by Sina Lofredo. It was fact checked by Sierra Juarez. Kicking Cannon is our show's editor and the indicator is a production of npr.

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This message comes from Schwab. At Schwab, you can get everything from self directed investing to full service wealth management all in one place. No matter your investing goal, life stage, amount to invest or know how you can invest your way with Schwab.