We're gonna need a bigger boat-building industry

Summary

Summary of "We're Gonna Need a Bigger Boat-Building Industry"
The Indicator from Planet Money
Release Date: June 26, 2025

---

Introduction: Decline of American Shipbuilding

In the episode titled "We're Gonna Need a Bigger Boat-Building Industry," hosted by NPR's The Indicator from Planet Money, presenters Darian Woods and Waylon Wong delve into the significant decline of the United States' shipbuilding industry. Highlighting the stark contrast between the dwindling American ship production and China's booming shipbuilding sector, the episode examines the historical, economic, and geopolitical factors contributing to this shift and explores legislative efforts aimed at revitalizing U.S. shipbuilding.

Historical Context: From Industrial Hub to Shipyard Shutdown

The episode opens with a visit to the Brooklyn Navy Yard, once a bustling center for ship production, notably manufacturing battleships like the USS Tennessee during World War I and the USS Missouri during World War II. Host Waylon Wong sets the scene:

"On a recent afternoon, we paid a visit to the Brooklyn Navy Yard in New York... Like one company that makes scenery for theaters, this campus has always been a hub for industrial activity." [00:12]

Darian Woods adds historical perspective:

"It was the shipyard that produced battleships... It shut down in the 1960s." [00:32]

The decline didn't occur in isolation; post-Cold War reductions nationwide left the U.S. constructing fewer than five large ocean-going ships annually by 2024, while China's orders surged to approximately 3,000 ships that same year [00:49]. This imbalance has raised alarms among lawmakers about national security and economic stability.

Intertwined Commercial and Military Shipbuilding

The discussion emphasizes the deep interconnection between commercial and military shipbuilding globally. Darian Woods explains:

"When we talk about shipbuilding, we're usually talking about both commercial and military ships... For example, in the Middle East, American naval ships protect oil tankers from threats like Iran." [03:04]

Waylon Wong traces this relationship to Captain Alfred Thayer Mahan, a 19th-century naval strategist who advocated for a powerful navy to secure international trade routes, thereby bolstering American economic interests. Naval expert Emma Salisbury from the Council on Geostrategy elaborates:

"One of the principal tasks of a navy is to protect global shipping lanes and the freedom of navigation, to deal with pirates and bandits." [03:57]

The Jones Act: Intentions and Unintended Consequences

The Jones Act of 1920 is a focal point in understanding the current state of U.S. shipbuilding. Darian Woods explains:

"The Jones Act... says that ships traveling between US ports must be American. This means at least 75% of the crew and the ownership of the ship has to be American." [04:47]

Emma Salisbury critiques the Act's effectiveness:

"That was intended to mean that there would be a healthy commercial shipbuilding industry, but it just simply hasn't worked." [05:26]

The Jones Act inadvertently increased shipbuilding costs in the U.S., making American-built ships less competitive internationally. Post-World War II, the Act shielded U.S. shipbuilders from foreign competition, leading companies to favor land-based transport alternatives due to the higher costs of American ships [05:35].

China’s Dominance in Shipbuilding

By 2024, China emerged as the global leader in commercial shipbuilding, producing vastly more ships than the United States—over 3,000 in that year alone. Waylon Wong highlights the dependency:

"American businesses and even the US Military rely on Chinese built ships to move stuff around the world." [06:42]

Michael Waltz, then a Republican congressman from Florida and future nominee for U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, warns of the strategic vulnerabilities:

"They could turn off our entire economy." [06:54]

He emphasized that China's capability to produce one of the world's largest container ships and swiftly pivot to military vessels like aircraft carriers underscores the scale and flexibility of their shipbuilding industry [07:11].

Legislative Efforts: The Ships for America Act

In response to the declining shipbuilding sector, the Trump administration introduced the Ships for America Act, first presented the previous year, garnering bipartisan support. Darian Woods outlines the Act's objectives:

"The bill wants to revive the US Maritime industry by offering incentives and recruiting new workers... from 80 to 250 US flagged ships within the next decade." [07:32]

Emma Salisbury expresses skepticism about the feasibility:

"Building a big shipyard is a huge investment. It takes billions... the industrial capacity just isn't there because it has atrophied over the last three decades." [08:05]

She points out that constructing state-of-the-art shipyards requires extensive investment in land, workforce, and technology, challenges that the current industrial infrastructure may not readily meet [08:20].

Expert Insights and Concerns

Emma Salisbury further critiques the Ships for America Act, noting that while it builds upon the Jones Act by requiring 100% of U.S. government cargo to be carried by American-flagged ships (doubling the current requirement), it may lead to unintended consequences:

"It makes me think of the core dichotomy of the Trump administration... a push and pull between making America's economy stronger by making American business stronger, and this strong protectionist impulse." [09:19]

She warns that such protectionist measures, especially amid uncertain tariffs on crucial materials like steel, could hinder the potential shipbuilding renaissance instead of fostering growth [09:00].

Future Outlook: Policies and Strategic Moves

Despite challenges, the Trump administration is advancing policies aimed at diminishing Chinese maritime dominance. A notable measure includes initiating fees for any Chinese-built or operated commercial ships docking at American ports starting October [09:44].

Darian Woods summarizes the episode’s production credits, underscoring the collaborative effort behind the insightful analysis [09:44].

Conclusion: Navigating a Complex Future

The episode concludes by highlighting the precarious state of American shipbuilding and the ambitious yet contentious efforts to revive it. While legislative measures like the Ships for America Act aim to bolster the industry, expert opinions suggest that without substantial investment and strategic planning, the U.S. may continue to rely heavily on foreign shipbuilding, particularly from China, thereby maintaining potential vulnerabilities in both economic and national security realms.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Waylon Wong [00:12]:
  "On a recent afternoon, we paid a visit to the Brooklyn Navy Yard in New York... Like one company that makes scenery for theaters, this campus has always been a hub for industrial activity."

• Emma Salisbury [03:57]:
  "One of the principal tasks of a navy is to protect global shipping lanes and the freedom of navigation, to deal with pirates and bandits."

• Darian Woods [05:35]:
  "Military shipbuilding also declined as defense spending fell after the Cold War."

• Michael Waltz [06:54]:
  "They could turn off our entire economy."

• Emma Salisbury [09:19]:
  "It makes me think of the core dichotomy of the Trump administration... a push and pull between making America's economy stronger by making American business stronger, and this strong protectionist impulse."

---

This detailed exploration into the American shipbuilding industry's past, present, and potential future offers listeners a comprehensive understanding of the economic and strategic imperatives surrounding maritime production in the United States.

Transcript

[NPR Host]

NPR.

[Waylon Wong]

On a recent afternoon, we paid a visit to the Brooklyn Navy Yard in New York. It was a sunny day, perfect for standing outside and listening to the gentle burbling of the East River. And inside, we could hear the hum of machinery from the small manufacturing businesses that are housed at the Brooklyn Navy Yard. Like one company that makes scenery for.

[Darian Woods]

Theaters, this campus has always been a hub for industrial activity, but it used to make something different. This was the shipyard that produced battleships like the USS Tennessee during World War I and the USS Missouri during World War II. It shut down in the 1960s.

[Waylon Wong]

And it's not just the Brooklyn Navy Yard that stopped producing ships. American shipbuilding dried up across the country in the decades following the Cold War. THE Today, the U.S. builds five or fewer large ocean going ships a year. China's list of orders numbered around 3,000 ships in 2024 alone.

[Darian Woods]

And some lawmakers see this imbalance as a threat to American national security and the economy. This is the indicator from Planet Money. I'm Darian Woods.

[Waylon Wong]

And I'm Waylon Wong. Today on the show, the US Barely builds ships anymore. The Trump administration wants to change that.

[NPR Host]

Will it work?

[Waylon Wong]

That's coming up after the break.

[Lara Schmies]

Support for NPR and the following message come from Edward Jones. A rich life isn't always a straight line. Unexpected turns can bring new possibilities. With a hundred years of experience navigating ups and downs, Edward Jones can help guide you. Let's find your rich together.

[NPR Host]

Edward jones, Member, SIPC this message is from Spectrum Business. From independently owned storefronts just open for business to established professional services run from large offices, Spectrum is committed to delivering connectivity solutions for any size business. Create a plan made for your business with fast, reliable Internet, TV packages, phone, mobile services and more, all backed by the Spectrum commitment. From one employee to thousands, Spectrum keeps your business connected. Learn [e-mail] business this message comes from Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right. They offer premium wireless plans for less. And all plans include high speed data, unlimited talk and text and nationwide coverage. See for [e-mail] Switch. You're listening to the NPR Network. Live from NPR News.

[Lara Schmies]

I'm Lara Schmies.

[NPR Host]

A living, breathing record of your neighborhood, the country, the world, told by thousands of local journalists who live in the places where stories unfold, backed by a national newsroom that puts it all in perspective. Hear the whole country's story. Hear ways of thinking that challenge your own. Hear the bigger picture with npr.

[Darian Woods]

When we talk about shipbuilding, we're usually talking about Both commercial and military ships. These two industries are deeply intertwined, not just in the US but around the world. So, for example, you can look at the Middle east, where there are fears over Iran potentially throttling oil shipments through the Strait of Hormuz. And there are American naval ships protecting oil tankers.

[Waylon Wong]

This close relationship between commercial ships and the military traces its roots to a 19th century naval theorist named Captain Alfred Thayer Mahan. He wanted American businesses to expand to new international markets, and that meant the country needed a powerful navy to safeguard American ships carrying cargo around the world. Emma Salisbury is a naval expert at a British think tank called the Council on Geostrategy. She says Mahan's ideas underpin how we think of American sea power and its importance to the economy.

[Emma Salisbury]

One of the kind of principal tasks of a navy is to protect global shipping lanes and the freedom of navigation, to deal with, you know, pirates and bandits and all that kind of thing.

[Darian Woods]

So that she's deadly serious when she's talking about pirates.

[Waylon Wong]

Yeah, they were a threat then, and we have modern day pirates now.

[Darian Woods]

Yeah, not your lovable fiction types. These, these are serious, you know, people to watch out for. The open water is a dangerous place. And in World War I, that put American sea power to the test. The US had to transport huge amounts of troops and equipment to Europe by sea, and it had to use ships from other countries to help pull off such a big task. This fact alarmed some lawmakers because what if those countries decided to keep those ships at home instead of helping the US that would be a national security nightmare.

[Waylon Wong]

So enter the Jones Act. It was signed into law in 1920, and it's still in effect. It says that ships traveling between US ports must be American. This means at least 75% of the crew and the ownership of the ship has to be American. And the ships have to be assembled in the US with major components made in the US So a ship carrying.

[Darian Woods]

Cargo from, say, California to Hawaii, it has to be an American ship with an American crew. A ship traveling between California and Shanghai doesn't.

[Emma Salisbury]

That was intended to mean that there would be a healthy commercial shipbuilding industry, but it just simply hasn't worked.

[Darian Woods]

Emma says the Jones act created some unintended consequences. An important one is it made shipbuilding costs much higher in the US Than overseas.

[Waylon Wong]

Now, the maritime industry did get a boost during World War II, but with the Jones act still in effect, commercial shipbuilders lost ground after the war. They didn't have to compete with foreign shipbuilders. As a result, US Made Ships were more expensive. Companies looking to move stuff around. The US opted for land alternatives like road and rail. And there was little foreign demand for US built ships, given their higher price tag.

[Darian Woods]

Military shipbuilding also declined as defence spending fell after the Cold War. Emma says that when spending ramped up again in the early 2000s with the war on terrorism, naval priorities weren't really part of that expansion.

[Emma Salisbury]

So then when you come to today, even though there is now the recognition that the US Navy does need more submarines, they need more surface ships, more drones, all of this, the industrial capacity just isn't there because it has atrophied over the last three decades.

[Darian Woods]

And the US commercial fleet is looking ragged too. The US Department of Transportation says a lot of the country's ships will need to be replaced in the next few years.

[Waylon Wong]

Today, China is the world leader in commercial shipbuilding. American businesses and even the US Military rely on Chinese built ships to move stuff around the world.

[Darian Woods]

They literally could turn off our entire economy.

[Waylon Wong]

That's Michael Waltz speaking about China at a September event. He's the Current nominee for U.S. ambassador to the United nations, but at the time he was a Republican congressman from Florida. He was warning that China could cut off the US from its supply of ships. And he has other national security concerns.

[Darian Woods]

So a shipyard that can produce one of the world's largest container ships can then pretty easily flip and produce an aircraft carrier and do it at scale with the workforce, the steel, the aluminum and the know how that that has been invested and paid for by their commercial shipbuilding industry.

[Waylon Wong]

Walt helped draft a bill called the Ships for America Act. It was first introduced last year and it has bipartisan support.

[Darian Woods]

The bill wants to revive the US Maritime industry by offering incentives and recruiting new workers. Right now there 80 US flagged ships operating in global shipping. That means they were built in an American shipyard, have an American crew and follow American regulations. The lawmakers want to get that number from 80 to 250 within the next decade. Naval expert Emma Salisbury says that is a really ambitious goal.

[Emma Salisbury]

Building a big shipyard is a huge investment. It takes billions. And you need the land, you need the people, you need the construction time, you need the latest manufacturing technologies to be able to build state of the art ships.

[Waylon Wong]

President Trump talked about making US Ships again in a State of the Union address. Emma says this kind of support would be important for the industry. She likes the parts of the Ships act that gives resources to shipbuilders. What she doesn't like are the restrictions on foreign competition. So remember the Jones Act. That's the regulation that made American shipbuilding expensive.

[Darian Woods]

Emma says there are parts of the new bill that build on what the Jones act has already done. The Jones act is about ports. The Ships act talks about cargo. It proposes a requirement that 100% of US government cargo be carried by US flagged ships. Right now, that requirement is half that.

[Waylon Wong]

Emma says this policy is supposed to lead to more ships getting built, but what she thinks will actually happen is that less cargo will get transported because there's not enough ships. Then there's the continued uncertainty around tariffs, especially for crucial materials like steel. Emma says these policies could derail a shipbuilding renaissance.

[Emma Salisbury]

It makes me think of the kind of the core dichotomy of the Trump administration is this push and pull between making America's economy stronger by making American business stronger, and then there's this strong protectionist impulse that President Trump has towards things like tariffs, especially. So to kind of make that bet on US Shipbuilding is a really risky thing.

[Waylon Wong]

In the meantime, the Trump administration is moving ahead with other policies it hopes will help erode Chinese maritime dominance. In October, the government will start charging fees for any Chinese built or operated commercial ship that docks at an American port. This episode was produced by Ella Feldman with engineering by Kwesi Lee and Patrick Murray. It was fact checked by Tyler Jones and edited by Julia Ritchie. Kaken Cannon is our show's editor and the indicator is a production of NPR Foreign.

[Lara Schmies]

This message comes from Meta AI Meta AI is the personal AI to help you with whatever you need. Not only is Meta AI now an app, but it's also on the apps you already Love Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp and Messenger. Plus the Ray Ban Meta Glasses. It's easy to access wherever you are throughout the day. Experience Meta's newest AI that's tailored to you by downloading the Meta AI app. Try the Meta AI app today on the Apple App Store and Google Play.

[NPR Host]

This message comes from Thrive Market. The food industry is a multi billion dollar industry, but not everything on the shelf is made with your health in mind. At Thrive Market, they go beyond the standards, curating the highest quality products for you and your family while focusing on organic first and restricting more than 1,000 harmful ingredients, all shipped at your door. Shop at a grocery store that actually cares for your [e-mail] podcast for 30% off your first order plus a $60 free gift. This message comes from Mint Mobile. If you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks, Mint Mobile might be right for you. With plans starting from 15 bucks a month. Shop plans [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required new customer offer for first 3 months only, then plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.