What an Epstein recording reveals about how elites get jobs

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "What an Epstein recording reveals about how elites get jobs"

The Indicator from Planet Money (NPR)

Date: February 25, 2026
Hosts: Darian Woods, Adrian Ma
Featured Guest: Matilda Bombardini (Economics Professor, UC Berkeley)

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Overview

This episode of The Indicator explores the mechanisms by which elites—namely politicians, business leaders, and celebrities—leverage personal connections to secure lucrative positions and favors, often overshadowing genuine expertise or skill. Using newly released "Epstein files"—detailed records that expose Jeffrey Epstein's role as a connector among global elites—the hosts illuminate the pervasive “economy of favors” at the top and discuss specific examples, including an explicit 2013 recording between Epstein and former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak. Economist Matilda Bombardini joins to analyze and contextualize these revelations within broader research on networking vs. expertise.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Power of Connections vs. Expertise (00:11–01:26)

• Theme introduction: Darian Woods opens with the age-old adage, "It's not what you know, it's who you know," framing the episode's investigation into whether skill or networking matters more for elite career advancement.
• Adrian Ma notes that Epstein’s files showcase how “elite politicians, business leaders, and celebrities profit from connections,” highlighting Epstein’s advisory relationship with Ehud Barak after his political career.

The Revolving Door: Blurring Public and Private Sectors (02:33–03:30)

• Concept explained: The “revolving door” describes individuals alternately occupying high-level positions in government and the private sector, thus intertwining public and private interests.
• Problematic consequences: Adrian Ma points out the risk of regulators going “soft” on industries they may hope to work for later, though such crossovers can also bring expertise to government roles.
• Academic perspective:

  “Is this true expertise, or is it just really because you know people in the right places... even though maybe for society this is not a benefit?”
  —Matilda Bombardini (03:14)

Decoding the Epstein-Barak Recording (04:04–06:24)

• Epstein’s advice: Epstein advises Barak to

  "make a list of who has IOUs to you. This person owes me a favor. This person owes me his life. This person owes me his job. This person owes me."
  —Jeffrey Epstein (04:21)

• Expert analysis: Bombardini reacts:

  “My first reaction is that this is not necessarily emphasizing the expertise from truly knowledge point of view.”
  —Matilda Bombardini (04:43) “So in the sort of balance of whom you know or what you know here points to the whom.” —Matilda Bombardini (05:16)

• Memorable moment: Bombardini remarks on the explicitness of the conversation:

  “This is really the first time I could hear it with my ears.”
  —Matilda Bombardini (05:24)

• Epstein's emphasis on connections:

  “What is your real advantage for them? The fact that you know rich people and the fact that you have open [doors]... You’re the door opener.” —Jeffrey Epstein (05:38, 05:59)
  Barak responds, “Yeah, in a way... they know me and they trust me because we work together.” (06:01)
  Epstein affirms, “It’s not really your expertise... you’re gonna make a lot of money.” (06:08–06:17)

Empirical Research on Connections versus Expertise (06:35–07:00)

• Bombardini’s findings: Connected lobbyists can command about 9% higher pay than those hired for technical expertise.

  “Those connected lobbyists could get paid about 9% more than others, substantially more than lobbyists who were actually experts on the topic at hand.” —Adrian Ma (06:35)

• Real-life impacts: Following the Epstein-Barak conversation, Barak took high-profile consulting and board roles (e.g., Swiss bank Julius Baer, biometric and medical cannabis startups).

Defending Expertise and Scrutiny of Connections (07:31–08:47)

• Barak’s defense: His office claims he has substantial expertise in science and technology (Stanford master's, military, and political experience) and always operated within the law.

• Expanding the network: Epstein encourages Barak to leverage his personal acquaintance with Vladimir Putin.

  “I would send a note to Putin... We should have dinner. Putin for dinner or tea?”
  —Jeffrey Epstein (08:01) With Barak joking, “Tea or vodka?” (08:26)

• Wider implications: Bombardini notes Epstein’s possible ulterior motive—using Barak’s connections to enhance his own network:

  “This looks more like Epstein trying to use this conversation to increase this network. That seems to be pretty wide reaching.”
  —Matilda Bombardini (08:35)

Fallouts and Ethical Questions (08:47–09:40)

• Broader reach: Epstein’s connections crossed political and ideological divides, involving prominent figures from Steve Bannon to Noam Chomsky.
• Consequences: There have been notable resignations (e.g., Hyatt chairman, law firm leaders) and arrests, including the former PM of Norway and Prince Andrew.
• Final caution: Woods and Ma conclude:

  “The connections that Epstein promised to be so valuable have turned toxic in the sunlight. Yes, it's not what you know, but who you know. But now an addendum has become painfully apparent. Be careful who that person is.”
  —Darian Woods (09:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You’re the door opener.”
  —Jeffrey Epstein (05:59)

• “This is really the first time I could hear it with my ears.”
  —Matilda Bombardini (05:24)

• “Those connected lobbyists could get paid about 9% more than others, substantially more than lobbyists who were actually experts...”
  —Adrian Ma (06:35)

• “Tea or vodka?”
  —Ehud Barak (08:26)

• “The connections that Epstein promised to be so valuable have turned toxic in the sunlight... Be careful who that person is.”
  —Darian Woods (09:40)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:11–01:26 — Introduction: Who you know versus what you know
• 02:33–03:30 — The revolving door and systemic issues
• 04:04–06:24 — Epstein’s advice and Bombardini’s reaction
• 06:35–07:00 — Empirical research on value of connections
• 07:15–07:24 — Post-politics career moves of Ehud Barak
• 08:01–08:47 — Connections to world leaders (Putin), Epstein’s motives
• 08:47–09:40 — Fallout: scandals, arrests, and ethical lessons

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Takeaway

The episode powerfully illustrates how, at the highest tiers of power, connections can matter more than expertise—not only opening doors to personal enrichment for politicians and business elites but also creating hidden networks of obligation and influence. However, these same connections, once exposed, can become reputational and legal liabilities, underlining the importance of both transparency and ethical caution in the cultivation and use of elite networks.

Transcript

[NPR Announcer]

Npr.

[Darian Woods]

We all know the saying, it's not what you know, it's who you know. And so for career advancement and business success, what matters more, honing our skills or building our network?

[Adrian Ma]

Well, it depends. But the recently released Epstein files have shown in unprecedented detail how elite politicians, business leaders and celebrities profit from connections. Case in point, Jeffrey Epstein giving former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak advice on how to make money after leaving political office.

[Jeffrey Epstein]

They will know more about what you can do for them than you can guess.

[Darian Woods]

In other words, private companies will know how they want to use ex politicians for their reputations or for the doors they can open. This is the indicator from Planet Money. I'm Darian Woods.

[Adrian Ma]

And I'm Adrian Ma. Today on the show Elite Power Brokering, the Epstein files have revealed extraordinary details about how many top business people and politicians operate inside an economy of favors and implicit debts. We'll learn just how much personal networks are valued compared to competency. And we'll hear more of that conversation between Epstein and Ehud Barak.

[Sponsor Announcer]

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[Darian Woods]

In government, there's a concept called the revolving door. That's when people in the private sector go to work for the government, maybe as a regulator. Later they go back to work for the industry they were just regulating. The door revolves around and around looking through the Epstein files. One thing that was striking was just how blended the networks of elite decision makers were between the public private sectors.

[Adrian Ma]

And this revolving door has some problems. Of course, it could mean that regulators go soft on the industry if they're hoping to later get hired by them. At the same time, it means that people in the Government have industry expertise. Matilda Bombardini is an economics professor at UC Berkeley.

[Matilda Bombardini]

Is this true expertise, or is it just really because you know people in the right places and you can just direct the firm that hires you to knock on the right doors, even though maybe for society this is not a benefit?

[Darian Woods]

Mathilde started her research basically agnostic about whether former public servants were providing useful advice or were just exploiting their connections.

[Matilda Bombardini]

Of course, again, this is hard to disentangle, and so that's why we look at the data. We look at the aggregate data.

[Darian Woods]

Matilda's research gives her an expert lens into what was happening in the Epstein files. So we invited her to listen in on this remarkable recording, which is a conversation between former former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Jeffrey Epstein in 2013.

[Adrian Ma]

Epstein is giving Barak advice on how to use his power and connections to make money as a politician about to leave politics. We started by showing Matilda a clip of Epstein talking to Barack. And in this one, Epstein is repeating a mutual friend's advice was he thought

[Jeffrey Epstein]

you should make a list of who has IOUs to you. This person owes me a favor. This person owes me his life. This person owes me his job. This person owes me.

[Ehud Barak]

Yeah.

[Adrian Ma]

Okay, so sort of like a log of people who are in your debt. Yeah.

[Darian Woods]

Here's Mathilde's reaction.

[Matilda Bombardini]

My first reaction is that this is not necessarily emphasizing the expertise from truly knowledge point of view.

[Adrian Ma]

So that's one point for connections, zero for expertise as being valuable here.

[Matilda Bombardini]

It's really just sort of emphasizing the people that are indebted to Barak. So this, to me, points more to his. Not a lot of expertise that he's bringing, other than just the connection to specific people. So in the sort of balance of whom you know or what you know here points to the whom.

[Darian Woods]

Even as a researcher on lobbying, Mathilde hadn't heard people say these kinds of words so explicitly until she listen to this tape.

[Matilda Bombardini]

This is really the first time I could hear it with my ears.

[Adrian Ma]

Now, if that clip suggested Barack would mostly use his connections to make money, the next clip has Epstein shouting it.

[Darian Woods]

So let's listen to that one.

[Jeffrey Epstein]

What is your real advantage for them? The fact that you know rich people and the fact that you have open.

[Ehud Barak]

I can access the door. I can access.

[Adrian Ma]

I can.

[Ehud Barak]

I can.

[Darian Woods]

So in this clip, Epstein is asking Barack what he brings to the table. They're talking in the context of Swiss banks, sovereign wealth funds, and Silicon Valley companies.

[Jeffrey Epstein]

You're the door opener.

[Ehud Barak]

Yeah, in a way. And, yeah, someone that they respect. Give them certain respect. And they know me and they trust me because we work together.

[Jeffrey Epstein]

It's not really your expertise. Yeah, but it's your kit.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I understand.

[Jeffrey Epstein]

You see your capabilities.

[Ehud Barak]

I think you what they basically say

[Jeffrey Epstein]

you're gonna make a lot of money. See, you're going to make a lot of money. You're definitely going to make a lot of money.

[Darian Woods]

You're smiling a bit there.

[Matilda Bombardini]

I was smiling because the word opening a door was actually mentioned. So I didn't do it on purpose. I mean, this is just the language that we use.

[Adrian Ma]

Epstein seems to be assuring Barack that even if his only role is a door opener, that will still be very valuable to companies. And this is actually consistent with Matilda's research. She studied payments to lobbyists who had personal connections to a lawmaker. It turned out those connected lobbyists could get paid about 9% more than others, substantially more than lobbyists who were actually experts on the topic at hand.

[Darian Woods]

Barack found plenty of opportunities to capitalize on that value. A few months after this conversation, he joined the Swiss bank Julius Bayer as a special consultant. At the time, industry press said he would help the bank establish ties with wealthy Israelis.

[Adrian Ma]

Two years later, Barack became chairman of a public safety tech startup called Carbine.

[Darian Woods]

That year, he joined the board of a biometric startup, too.

[Adrian Ma]

He later became chairman of a medical cannabis company and co founded a cybersecurity and surveillance company called Toca.

[Darian Woods]

Now Barack has defended his expertise. We reached out to Barack and a spokesperson from his office told us on his behalf that Barack has a deep background in science and technology. He has a master's degree from Stanford in economic and engineering systems and multiple decades in the military and in politics.

[Adrian Ma]

Epstein, though, was emphasizing personal connections. Like in that conversation, Vladimir Putin comes up. Barack knows the Russian president personally. And so Epstein encourages Barack to take advantage of that as he leaves office.

[Jeffrey Epstein]

I would send a note to Putin, I'm going to leave government in March 14. I'm going to be in Scandinavia or I plan to be in northern Europe. We should have dinner. Putin for dinner or tea?

[Ehud Barak]

Tea or vodka?

[Adrian Ma]

Matilda suspects that underneath this conversation, Epstein's also thinking about how Barack's connections could be useful to him.

[Matilda Bombardini]

This looks more like Epstein trying to use this conversation to increase this network. That seems to be pretty wide reaching

[Adrian Ma]

and we are seeing just how wide that reach was. Epstein's network crossed traditional political divides from right wing strategist Steve Bannon to linguist and author Noam Chomsky. There have been waves of resignations over Epstein connections from the chairman of Hyatt hotels to a leader of an elite law firm to the CEO of a Dubai port operator.

[Darian Woods]

There have also been arrests. The former prime minister of Norway was charged with gross corruption. Former Prince Andrew Mountbatten Windsor was arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public Office. On Monday, UK's former US ambassador Lord Peter Mandelson was arrested with police using the same language.

[Adrian Ma]

Ehud Barack's office told us that Barack's business activities were always within the law. And they added, many people tried to give Barack informal advice about what he could do after leaving office, including Epstein.

[Darian Woods]

The connections that Epstein promised to be so valuable have turned toxic in the sunlight. Yes, it's not what you know, but who you know. But now an addendum has become painfully apparent. Be careful who that person is. This episode was produced by Julia Ritchie with engineering by Sina Lofredo. It was fact checked by Vito Emanuel. Kate Concannon edits the show. The indicator is a production of npr.

[NPR Announcer]

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[Brian Reed]

We've got a story about a journalist covering an anti ice protest and he ends up behind bars for more a hundred days because of it. And here's the twist. He was a Trump supporter. He liked dice. Check it out on Question everything from placement theory and kcrw, part of the NPR network.