Why infinite scroll's inventor wants to kill his creation

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Indicator from Planet Money

Episode: Why infinite scroll's inventor wants to kill his creation
Date: April 7, 2026
Host: NPR (Adrian Ma & Darian Woods)
Guest: Aza Raskin – Inventor of Infinite Scroll

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the hosts delve into the addictive nature of social media, spotlighting the role of "infinite scroll" in driving user engagement—and its unintended consequences. The conversation features Aza Raskin, credited with inventing infinite scroll, who now advocates for design changes to mitigate platform addictiveness. The episode unpacks recent legal verdicts against tech giants like Meta and Google, explores the psychological impact of design choices, and contemplates how regulation or redesign could empower users to reclaim their attention.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Addictive Design of Social Media

• Context: Infinite scroll was invented in 2006 as an efficient interface before social media became ubiquitous.
• Unexpected Consequences: Originally meant to help users, infinite scroll was quickly leveraged by social media companies to maximize engagement.
• Aza Raskin’s Regret:
  • "So I invented that technical technology before social media got going really as a technology to help people…incentives eat intentions." (02:34, Aza Raskin)

2. Legal Accountability: Landmark Verdicts

• Recent Jury Decisions:
  • Meta (Instagram) and Google (YouTube) found negligent in separate cases for knowingly designing addictive and harmful platforms, especially for children ([01:05]).
  • Notably, $6 million and $375 million were awarded in California and New Mexico cases, respectively ([04:44]).
• Legal Precedent:
  • Companies couldn’t hide behind Section 230 because plaintiffs focused on platform design, not user content ([05:08], [05:26]).
• Aza’s Testimony:
  • "I actually had to write software to break my own addiction. And it was really important for the jury to understand that this is not a fair fight..." (03:10, Aza Raskin)

3. The Science & Ethics of Addictiveness

• Deliberate Design:
  • Evidence exists (internal memos/emails) that social media companies intentionally optimized apps to maximize “engagement” at the expense of wellbeing ([04:15], Aza Raskin).
  • "Despite my good intentions in technology, incentives eat intentions." (02:34, Aza Raskin)
• Lack of Stopping Cues:
  • Infinite scroll removes natural endpoints, leading to unintentional overuse.
  • Memorable Metaphor:
    • "It's sort of like if your wine glass filled up without you looking at it, you would drink much more..." (03:10, Aza Raskin)
• Research Perspective:
  • The American Psychological Association notes social media has both risks and benefits, but children/adolescents may be particularly vulnerable ([05:55]).

4. What Should Change? (Aza Raskin’s Recommendations)

• Design Tweaks for Safer Use:
  • Add friction (e.g., slower loading times, manual page advancement).
  • Remove infinite scroll and autoplaying videos.
  • These changes act like “speed bumps” without restricting freedom:
    • "It's literally like adding speed bumps to a road. Doesn't remove any freedom. It just says maybe go a little bit slower..." (06:39, Aza Raskin)
• Countering the “Nanny State” Critique:
  • Parallels to seatbelt legislation:
    • "I should just be able to have whatever car with whatever lack of safety…We make rules that keep us all safe." (07:29, Aza Raskin)

5. Broader Implications: AI and Future Regulation

• New “Race to Intimacy”:
  • AI platforms may compete to be the most “intimate” in users’ lives, raising parallel concerns for attention and manipulation:
    • "Well, now the race to attention becomes the race to intimacy...especially kids." (08:00, Aza Raskin)
• International Regulation:
  • Countries are moving to restrict or ban social media for children (e.g., Indonesia, India, Australia, several European countries):
    • "There's this growing, I think, human movement where we are recognizing that technology is encroaching onto our humanity." (08:59, Aza Raskin)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On unintended harm:
  • "Incentives eat intentions." (02:34, Aza Raskin)
• On addictiveness by design:
  • "When you open up Instagram or Facebook or YouTube, it's not just your mind trying to have willpower or control. On the other side of that screen are thousands of engineers...using your own psychology to keep you there." (03:29, Aza Raskin)
• On regulation:
  • "We make rules that keep us all safe." (07:29, Aza Raskin)
• On global change:
  • "If you went back two years, you'd say, that's impossible. There's this growing… human movement where we are recognizing that technology is encroaching onto our humanity." (08:59, Aza Raskin)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:32 — Introduction to the addictive nature of social media
• 01:34 — Introduction of Aza Raskin and Infinite Scroll
• 02:22 — Aza explains inventing Infinite Scroll and his regrets
• 03:10 — Aza’s testimony: psychology and design of addiction
• 04:15 — Evidence of intentional addictiveness by tech companies
• 05:08 — Legal significance of targeting app design over content
• 06:39 — Aza's recommendations and design “speed bumps”
• 07:29 — Arguments for regulation compared to seatbelt laws
• 08:00 — Concerns about AI competition for “intimacy”
• 08:59 — Global momentum toward regulation and bans

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Tone and Language

The episode maintains a conversational, reflective tone. The hosts balance skepticism and curiosity, channeling the public’s ongoing unease about digital dependency. Raskin’s statements are a mix of tech insider candor, personal regret, and ethical urgency.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode spotlights how a small design choice—intended for convenience—became a tool for mass engagement, sometimes to society’s detriment. As lawsuits mount and nations act, the Infinite Scroll debate is evolving from tech circles to legal courts and policy discussions. Even its inventor now calls for reform, casting “infinite scroll” as not just a feature, but a cautionary tale about the power—and responsibility—of design.

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Transcript

[Darian Woods]

Hey, Darian woods, here it is a big day in the Planet Money world today. Our book is finally out and you can buy it in stores. It's called Planet Money, a guide to the economic forces that shape your life.

[Adrian Ma]

And if you do go by, let

[Darian Woods]

us know what you think and take a pic of you reading it and tag us. Let's see if we can make this a bestseller.

[NPR Announcer]

NPR.

[Adrian Ma]

If you spend even a little bit of time on social media, you know how addictive it can be. You wake up in the morning and you scroll through your feed, you check it again on your way to work. And during work, you scroll when you're eating lunch, when you're laying down to bed, even when you're on the toilet.

Well, speak for yourself. No, I imagine a lot of our listeners are even scrolling right now.

You.

[Darian Woods]

Yeah.

[Adrian Ma]

And if this is, you don't feel too embarrassed because this is what these apps were designed for, to keep users engaged, and they do it so well that it's become a liability for them.

[Darian Woods]

That's right. A couple of weeks ago, a jury in Los Angeles found Meta and Google negligent for designing apps like Instagram and YouTube to be addictive and harmful to children's mental health. The same week, a jury in Santa Fe found Meta is harming children's mental health and safety.

[Adrian Ma]

Meta. Now, Google and Meta have said they disagree with the verdicts and will appeal. But there's already a lot of talk about how these verdicts could reshape social media as we know it. This is the indicator from Planet Money. I'm Adrian Ma.

And I'm Darian Woods. Today on the show, we speak with Aza Raskin. He's an entrepreneur credited with inventing the Infinite scroll feature common in so many social media apps.

He also testified in that New Mexico trial of Meta. After the break, Aza tells us about the changes he thinks platforms should make to help people take their attention back.

[Jen Chavez]

Evergreen trees are Pacific Northwest icons in journalism. An evergreen story isn't tied to one news cycle. It goes deep and helps you understand the world. The Evergreen is also a podcast from OPB about the Northwest. I'm Jen Chavez. Listen to the Evergreen podcast from OPB every Monday, part of the NPR Network.

[Adrian Ma]

It was 2006 when Asa Raskin says he came up with Infinite Scroll. You know, the thing you get when you get to the bottom of your feed and more content loads and you never really get to the end.

Yeah. Asa says he's sorry for that, by the way.

[Aza Raskin]

So I invented that technical technology before Social media got going really as a technology to help people. And then I went around and I explained to Twitter and Google and other companies that this is just a more efficient interface. And what I was blind to was that despite my good intentions in technology, incentives eat intentions.

[Adrian Ma]

In other words, even though ASA didn't intend it, social media companies had a powerful incentive to use Infinite scroll to keep users engaged.

Aza talked about this when he testified in the New Mexico trial of Meta.

[Aza Raskin]

And what I was explaining to the jury is that even though I know perfectly how Infinite scroll works to remove a stopping cue, so you keep scrolling. It's sort of like if your wine glass filled up without you looking at it, you would drink much more because you don't. Your brain doesn't wake up when you reach the bottom of your wine glass. I was finding myself, you know, like disappearing to the bathroom in the middle of a dinner to, like scroll. I actually had to write software to break my own addiction. And it was really important for the jury to understand that this is not a fair fight. That when you open up Instagram or Facebook or YouTube, it's not just your mind trying to have willpower or control. On the other side of that screen are thousands of engineers who have done hundreds of millions of tests using your own psychology to keep you there.

[Adrian Ma]

What's the evidence that social media companies are knowingly making products that are designed to be addictive or even harmful?

[Aza Raskin]

Well, in this case, it's very clear from internal memos and emails that, you know, everyone from executives down knew exactly what they were doing and chose to do it anyway. Because these are engagement based companies and doing anything that drops engagement and number of users, lowers their stock price, lowers bonuses for people, and causes their competitors to be able to outcompete them.

[Adrian Ma]

Based on this type of evidence, jurors in the California case awarded the plaintiff $6 million in damages. In the New Mexico case, jurors awarded 375 million. That might not be much for companies with billions and billions of profits each year, but there are thousands more similar lawsuits that are still pending.

For Eiza, the money is significant, but it's not the most important thing about these cases.

[Aza Raskin]

This is really the first time that these companies are being held accountable for the design decisions that they make. Normally, these companies hide behind something called Section 230, which says that they are not responsible for the content that users post.

[Adrian Ma]

But the plaintiffs in these cases didn't base their claims on the content of the platforms. So the companies couldn't use Section 230 as a legal shield. Instead, the plaintiffs focused on the design of the apps, arguing the companies knew what they were doing was likely to cause harm, and they did it anyway. Now, the tech companies have argued that they do a lot to keep kids safe online. They also say there's no clinical diagnosis for social media addiction and that mental health is complex and can't be traced to a single app.

And what does the research say? Well, the American Psychological association says social media use comes with both potential benefits and potential risks. But children and adolescents may be particularly vulnerable to the risks because their brains are still developing.

As we said, the companies are appealing the verdicts, but if they eventually stick, these cases and the thousands like them have the potential to reshape our experience with social media. For Aza, it's an opportunity to force companies to change their apps to make them less addictive. And what might that look like? Exactly?

We might reach the end of our social media infinite feed.

[Aza Raskin]

I don't know.

[Adrian Ma]

But, you know, Asa says, for starters, companies could just add a little bit of friction to the user experience.

[Aza Raskin]

So, you know, when you sit on an airplane and it has sort of bad wi fi, you like, see that, you know, Instagram isn't loading fast. You, you, you go do something else. It's literally like adding speed bumps to a road. Doesn't remove any freedom. It just says maybe go a little bit slower, give you a little more time to think. Other tweaks could be just remove infinite scroll. You have to click to go to the next page and remove autoplaying videos. Even that would already do a lot.

[Adrian Ma]

I guess I'm hearing the voice in my head of somebody who sees these sort of recommendations that you're making and feels like this feels like a. Like a nanny state telling private companies to make their products worse for people. What would you say to that person?

[Aza Raskin]

Well, this is very similar to the kinds of arguments that people made about seat belts. I should just be able to have whatever car with whatever lack of safety. And, you know, that's not the society we live in. We make rules that keep us all safe.

[Adrian Ma]

Listening to Azer, we couldn't help but see some similarities between the incentives driving social media companies and those driving AI companies. And he says he's concerned about AI too.

[Aza Raskin]

Well, now the race to attention becomes the race to intimacy. That is, there is massive market incentive to have, you know, your company's AI occupy the chief intimate relational spot in someone's life, especially kids. Because any moment you spend talking with your friends or spending the outside world is a moment. You're not talking to the AI.

[Adrian Ma]

So whether it's AI or social media, these companies have the incentives and the tools to hack our brains. And for the most part, as a society, we've accepted that. But Eiza thinks that might be changing.

[Aza Raskin]

You know, what's so exciting is that, you know, as of a couple weeks ago, India and Indonesia both announced that they are contemplating or will ban social media for kids.

[Darian Woods]

Indonesia actually made the social media ban for kids official on March 28th.

[Aza Raskin]

And when you put it all together, they're following Australia and Denmark and Spain and France. If you went back two years, you'd say, that's impossible. There's this growing, I think, human movement where we are recognizing that technology is encroaching onto our humanity.

[Adrian Ma]

You could argue about whether these bans are the right way to deal with the issue, but one thing is for sure. If social media was like a natural global experiment on humanity, it does seem like that experiment is entering a new phase. This episode was produced by Angel Carreras

[Darian Woods]

with engineering by Kwesi Lee. It was fact checked by Cooper Katz. McKim Cake and Cannon is our editor, and the indicator is a production of npr.