Why the US chose not to have a passenger train system like Europe

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: The Indicator from Planet Money
Episode Title: Why the US chose not to have a passenger train system like Europe
Date: December 1, 2025
Hosts: Waylon Wong and Stephen Basaha
Guest: Alan Zaremski, Railroad Engineering Professor, University of Delaware

This episode explores the long-debated question of why the United States, unlike Europe, does not have a robust passenger rail system connecting its cities. Hosts Waylon Wong and Stephen Basaha, along with guest Alan Zaremski, break down the historical, economic, and geographic reasons behind America's freight-centric railroads—and discuss what would need to change to make expanded passenger rail possible.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The US Emphasis on Freight vs. Passenger Rail

• US Rail Success—Just Not How People Think
  • Alan Zaremski immediately reframes the central question, highlighting what he calls “the classical misunderstanding” about U.S. railroads (02:28).
  • Quote:

    "The United States has the best freight railroad in the world."
    — Alan Zaremski [03:00]

  • The hosts emphasize that, while the US has more railroad tracks than any other country (including China), they are almost exclusively used to transport goods, not people (03:09).

Geography and Density: The Foundational Differences

• Distance and Demographics Matter
  • Europe’s cities are much closer together, making frequent passenger rail practical and popular (03:47).
  • Quote:

    "New York to Los Angeles is 3,000 miles. Even if you're going at 200 miles an hour... you're still talking about a day and a half to two days [on a train] versus six hours on a flight."
    — Alan Zaremski and Stephen Basaha [04:02–04:18]

Profitability and Who Owns the Tracks

• Follow the Money

  • Freight railroads in the US are extremely profitable and largely owned by publicly traded companies (04:27).
  • Warren Buffett’s investment in BNSF is cited as proof that big money sees long-term freight value (04:27).
  • Quote:

    "Freight railroads are extremely profitable."
    — Alan Zaremski [04:27]

  • Publicly maintained roads and airports are compared to largely private, for-profit railroad infrastructure (05:11).

• Passenger vs. Freight: The Core Conflict

  • Theoretically, tracks could be shared, but in practice, freight companies resist sharing with passenger trains due to potential financial losses and logistical conflicts (05:11).
  • Quote:

    "You can't rent as many freight trains as you can, which means railroads suddenly are losing money."
    — Alan Zaremski [05:38]

Subsidies, Society, and the 'Socialism' Debate

• Subsidies for All—Except Rail?

  • Highway and air travel in the US are heavily subsidized, even if they’re not labeled “socialist” (06:24–06:43).
  • The show raises the imbalance in how different forms of transportation are supported with public money.

• A Capitalist vs. Socialist Dilemma

  • Zaremski frames the sharing-of-tracks issue as a fundamental debate between maximizing private profits and delivering broad societal benefit (06:03).
  • Quote:

    "What the railroads would say is it's our duty to our stockholders to maximize our profit. What you are saying is that there's a societal benefit by you allowing to route the passenger trains and it has some value. And how do you reconcile that?"
    — Alan Zaremski [06:06]

The Challenge of Building New (High-Speed) Lines

• Why Not Just Build More?
  • California’s attempt at high-speed rail is brought up as a case study in political and financial obstacles (07:29).
  • Estimated costs ballooned from $33 billion to nearly $128 billion (07:50).
  • Quote:

    "One of the problems with California high speed rail is that it's turned out to be much more expensive than anybody expected it to be."
    — Alan Zaremski [07:43]

Is There Any Hope? The ‘Corridor Approach’

• Where US Passenger Rail Works

  • The Northeast Corridor between Washington, New York, and Boston is cited as a successful US passenger rail system (09:01).
  • Quote:

    "We actually have a very successful passenger rail system in the Northeast Corridor. Washington, New York to Boston... It's an efficient, effective system."
    — Alan Zaremski [09:01]

  • Other efforts like Florida’s Brightline corridor are mentioned, but profitability remains elusive (09:21, 09:31).

• The Inevitable Role of Government Support

  • Zaremski points out that even Europe’s train networks are supported by taxpayer dollars (09:31).
  • Quote:

    "Passenger trains are almost never profitable, not even in Europe. Those trains are supported by taxpayer dollars."
    — Alan Zaremski [09:31]

  • Conclusion: For the US to have extensive passenger trains, there needs to be both public willingness and robust public funding (09:42).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On US Railroad Strength:

  "The United States has the best freight railroad in the world. In the world."
  — Alan Zaremski [03:00]

• On US Geography:

  "New York to Los Angeles is 3,000 miles...a day and a half to two [on a train] versus six hours on a flight."
  — Alan Zaremski & Stephen Basaha [04:02–04:18]

• On Profit Motive vs. Public Good:

  "What the railroads would say is it's our duty to our stockholders to maximize our profit. What you are saying is that there's a societal benefit...and how do you reconcile that?"
  — Alan Zaremski [06:06]

• On California High-Speed Rail:

  "It's turned out to be much more expensive than anybody expected it to be."
  — Alan Zaremski [07:43]

• On Northeast Corridor Success:

  "We actually have a very successful passenger rail system in the Northeast Corridor... It's an efficient, effective system."
  — Alan Zaremski [09:01]

• Final Takeaway:

  "Passenger trains are almost never profitable, not even in Europe. Those trains are supported by taxpayer dollars."
  — Alan Zaremski [09:31]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:24]: Stephen's train ride, setting up the big question
• [02:20]: Introduction of Alan Zaremski
• [03:00]: Zaremski's thesis: U.S. as world freight rail leader
• [03:47]: Geographic and demographic explanation for the US/Europe divergence
• [04:27]: Discussion of railroad profitability and Warren Buffett
• [05:11]: Track-sharing conflicts and history of Amtrak service
• [06:03]: Capitalist vs. societal perspectives on passenger trains
• [06:43]: U.S. transport subsidies context
• [07:29]: California high-speed rail difficulties
• [09:01]: The success of the Northeast Corridor & the corridor model
• [09:42]: Funding realities and lessons from Europe

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Conclusion

This episode challenges the narrative that the U.S. lacks a robust train system due to backwardness or incompetence. Instead, the choice for freight over passenger rail is rooted in geography, business incentives, and political will. Expanding passenger rail to European levels would require costly new infrastructure and, crucially, public willingness to fund it as a social good—as is already the case with highways and airports.

Zaremski ultimately argues for nuance and balance, recognizing both the economic realities and the societal benefits of rail systems, leaving listeners with the core idea: if Americans want more passenger trains, they’ll have to collectively decide it’s worth the investment.

Transcript

[A]

Npr.

[B]

This is the indicator from Planet Money. I'm Waylon Wong.

[C]

And I'm Stephen Basaha. And this is one of my favorite sounds.

[B]

Chugga, chugga, chugga, chugga, chugga, choo.

[C]

That sounds specifically, Waylon. That specific train sound is the new Amtrak line between New Orleans and Mobile, Alabama. I got to be on that first train ride this summer. And looking out the window, you know, at the sparkling Gulf water, the marshlands, I couldn't stop thinking about this nagging question so many Americans have. Why can't we have more trains like this?

[B]

In other words, why can't the US Be like Europe? And it's not just Europe, but also countries like Japan and India. They all have extensive passenger train systems to get from city to city. On today's show, why the US Chose not to have the same.

[C]

And we learn why US Railroads could still be worth bragging about.

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[B]

Our conductor into the world of railroads today is Alan Zaremski. He teaches classes on railroad engineering at the University of Delaware.

[E]

It sounds like you're going to be asking me the classical questions of how come the US Railroad system's not as good as Europe, which is sort of the classical misunderstanding of what's going on.

[C]

Misunderstanding? Oh, I look forward to being corrected.

[E]

I get that question at the start of every one of my classes.

[C]

Okay, so imagine I'm that young undergrad sticking his hand up, Bing. Like, why can't we have these nice passenger trains like Europe?

[E]

Let's start off with the fact that the United States has the best freight railroad in the world. In the world.

[B]

Best freight railroad in the world. That's great news if you're a cargo container full of presents. For good little boys and girls or.

[C]

A coal for all the bad ones.

[B]

Oh yes, the US has more railroad tracks than any other country, including China, which has extensive rail systems. But those tracks are almost exclusively used to transport goods, not people.

[C]

Why do we have so much freight train traffic and business in the U.S.

[E]

Okay, now we're getting into the underlying basis of your question. Okay. The United States, for a variety of reasons, has chosen to put its emphasis on freight transportation. Europe has put its emphasis on passenger transportation.

[B]

So this was a choice. And one reason for that choice comes down to density. Europe by comparison, is packed in with lots of cities not too far apart. The US is vast and spread out. A coast to coast train ride would just take forever.

[E]

New York to Los Angeles is 3,000 miles, even if you're going at 200.

[C]

Miles an hour, which our trains are not.

[E]

But even if you did have built an investor system, you're still talking about a day and a half to two.

[B]

Days versus, you know, six hours on a flight.

[C]

Yeah, so you could have a multi day train ride between LA and New York, or you could have freight trains.

[B]

Or maybe we should call them money trains.

[E]

Freight railroads are extremely profitable. And in fact, if you bought railroad stock, well, take Warren Buffett. Warren Buffett bought the Burlington Northern Santa Fe. Now Warren Buffett is no fool.

[B]

The US freight train industry as a whole is worth about $80 billion.

[C]

That's nowhere near as big as the US banking industry, but it is around the size of the US baking industry.

[B]

The baking industry. How many loaves of sourdough can you fit on one freight train anyway? These railroads are also owned by publicly traded companies and it makes sense these businesses would pick the more profitable option.

[C]

But you know, couldn't they just share the railroads? Passenger and freight trains? Kumbaya taking turns.

[E]

The answer is yes, we can. But there's inherent conflict.

[C]

Okay, so not much kumbaya like take that Amtrak line between Mobile and New Orleans. Passenger trains stop running between those cities because Hurricane Katrina damaged the tracks 20 years ago. And it's taken until this summer to come back. That's because during those past two decades, Amtrak spent a lot of time flying, fighting and negotiating with railroad owners who said it would hurt their freight business.

[E]

You can't rent as many freight trains as you can, which means railroads suddenly are losing money.

[C]

You were telling me though that these freight trains are so profitable and yeah, they might lose some money if a passenger train is sharing the tracks. But is it really that much money that they're losing when they're making so much money. Like you're saying, okay.

[E]

Now you're getting into a classical socialist versus capitalist argument.

[C]

Oh, I don't think I'm making a socialist argument here.

[E]

Yeah. What the railroads would say is it's our duty to our stockholders to maximize our profit. What you are saying is that there's a societal benefit by you allowing to route the passenger trains and it has some value. And how do you reconcile that?

[B]

Now it is worth mentioning that pretty much every version of transportation in the US is subsidized, from cars to flying.

[C]

Yeah. And you don't hear many people tossing this socialism label at interstates. The U.S. and state and local governments all spent just over $300 billion on highways in 2022 alone.

[B]

And when it comes to trains, there is some sharing of the tracks. Pretty much every Amtrak train is riding on private railroads. And if you're one of those private railroad companies, one or two passenger trains on the line each day isn't that big of a deal.

[E]

But if you want to run a true passenger rail system, okay, like they do in Europe, which means you want to run a couple of trains an hour, you want a train running every half hour, then now you're not talking about two trains a day, now you're talking about 20 to 30 trains a day. And all of a sudden you're talking about cutting the freight capacity maybe in half.

[C]

Okay, whole different option. Why not just build new railroads, leave the freight trains alone on their tracks and. And while we're at it, let's make them high speed rails too.

[B]

California has been trying to do that for nearly 20 years to connect San Francisco and LA. But it's been bogged down with political issues like where the train should and shouldn't cut through and stop.

[C]

Alan says there's also another serious challenge here.

[E]

One of the problems with California high speed rail is that it's turned out to be much more expensive than anybody expected it to be.

[C]

Yeah. The California project was forecast in 2008 to cost $33 billion. Last year it was estimated to cost nearly four times more, according to the Fresno B.

[B]

So summing all that up, it's a lot of reasons passenger trains just aren't as common in the US Compared with Europe or Asia. US cities are far apart. Passenger rail is just expensive and it would just slow down the money making freight trains.

[C]

When you tell that young undergraduate with their hand up with the Europe versus US question about passenger train and you give them all this, do they lower their hand and say, thank you so much Professor, My eyes have been opened. I understand they lower it and say.

[E]

We still need passenger trains. We understand it's a business. It's not. It's not a simple issue. I'm not saying we don't need the passenger trains.

[B]

In fact, Alan would like more passenger trains. He just doesn't agree with this simple idea that Europe has great trains while the US Has a lousy railroad system.

[C]

Where does that leave us?

[E]

The corridor approach.

[B]

The corridor approach. A train corridor is a simple stretch of railroad connecting a few large metros, ideally not too far from each other.

[E]

We actually have a very successful passenger rail system in the Northeast Corridor. Washington, New York to Boston. If you want to try, if you want to travel between Washington, New York and Boston, you travel. The majority of people still travel by train. It's an efficient, effective system.

[C]

More than three quarters of a million people ride part of the Northeast Corridor every day.

[B]

And the private company Brightline is building a corridor between Las Vegas and Southern California. The company already launched a South Florida line back in 2018.

[C]

It's just not exactly profitable, at least not yet. But Allen says passenger trains are almost never profitable, not even in Europe. Those trains are supported by taxpayer dollars.

[B]

So if the US really does want a big passenger train network, it has to be willing to pay for it.

[C]

This episode was produced by Angel Carreras with engineering by Signal Lofredo. It was fact checked by Sierra Juarez. Cake and Cannon is our show's editor and the indicator is production of npr.

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