Episode Overview
Podcast: The Indicator from Planet Money
Episode Title: Why the US chose not to have a passenger train system like Europe
Date: December 1, 2025
Hosts: Waylon Wong and Stephen Basaha
Guest: Alan Zaremski, Railroad Engineering Professor, University of Delaware
This episode explores the long-debated question of why the United States, unlike Europe, does not have a robust passenger rail system connecting its cities. Hosts Waylon Wong and Stephen Basaha, along with guest Alan Zaremski, break down the historical, economic, and geographic reasons behind America's freight-centric railroads—and discuss what would need to change to make expanded passenger rail possible.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
The US Emphasis on Freight vs. Passenger Rail
- US Rail Success—Just Not How People Think
- Alan Zaremski immediately reframes the central question, highlighting what he calls “the classical misunderstanding” about U.S. railroads (02:28).
- Quote:
"The United States has the best freight railroad in the world."
— Alan Zaremski [03:00] - The hosts emphasize that, while the US has more railroad tracks than any other country (including China), they are almost exclusively used to transport goods, not people (03:09).
Geography and Density: The Foundational Differences
- Distance and Demographics Matter
- Europe’s cities are much closer together, making frequent passenger rail practical and popular (03:47).
- Quote:
"New York to Los Angeles is 3,000 miles. Even if you're going at 200 miles an hour... you're still talking about a day and a half to two days [on a train] versus six hours on a flight."
— Alan Zaremski and Stephen Basaha [04:02–04:18]
Profitability and Who Owns the Tracks
-
Follow the Money
- Freight railroads in the US are extremely profitable and largely owned by publicly traded companies (04:27).
- Warren Buffett’s investment in BNSF is cited as proof that big money sees long-term freight value (04:27).
- Quote:
"Freight railroads are extremely profitable."
— Alan Zaremski [04:27] - Publicly maintained roads and airports are compared to largely private, for-profit railroad infrastructure (05:11).
-
Passenger vs. Freight: The Core Conflict
- Theoretically, tracks could be shared, but in practice, freight companies resist sharing with passenger trains due to potential financial losses and logistical conflicts (05:11).
- Quote:
"You can't rent as many freight trains as you can, which means railroads suddenly are losing money."
— Alan Zaremski [05:38]
Subsidies, Society, and the 'Socialism' Debate
-
Subsidies for All—Except Rail?
- Highway and air travel in the US are heavily subsidized, even if they’re not labeled “socialist” (06:24–06:43).
- The show raises the imbalance in how different forms of transportation are supported with public money.
-
A Capitalist vs. Socialist Dilemma
- Zaremski frames the sharing-of-tracks issue as a fundamental debate between maximizing private profits and delivering broad societal benefit (06:03).
- Quote:
"What the railroads would say is it's our duty to our stockholders to maximize our profit. What you are saying is that there's a societal benefit by you allowing to route the passenger trains and it has some value. And how do you reconcile that?"
— Alan Zaremski [06:06]
The Challenge of Building New (High-Speed) Lines
- Why Not Just Build More?
- California’s attempt at high-speed rail is brought up as a case study in political and financial obstacles (07:29).
- Estimated costs ballooned from $33 billion to nearly $128 billion (07:50).
- Quote:
"One of the problems with California high speed rail is that it's turned out to be much more expensive than anybody expected it to be."
— Alan Zaremski [07:43]
Is There Any Hope? The ‘Corridor Approach’
-
Where US Passenger Rail Works
- The Northeast Corridor between Washington, New York, and Boston is cited as a successful US passenger rail system (09:01).
- Quote:
"We actually have a very successful passenger rail system in the Northeast Corridor. Washington, New York to Boston... It's an efficient, effective system."
— Alan Zaremski [09:01] - Other efforts like Florida’s Brightline corridor are mentioned, but profitability remains elusive (09:21, 09:31).
-
The Inevitable Role of Government Support
- Zaremski points out that even Europe’s train networks are supported by taxpayer dollars (09:31).
- Quote:
"Passenger trains are almost never profitable, not even in Europe. Those trains are supported by taxpayer dollars."
— Alan Zaremski [09:31] - Conclusion: For the US to have extensive passenger trains, there needs to be both public willingness and robust public funding (09:42).
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On US Railroad Strength:
"The United States has the best freight railroad in the world. In the world."
— Alan Zaremski [03:00] -
On US Geography:
"New York to Los Angeles is 3,000 miles...a day and a half to two [on a train] versus six hours on a flight."
— Alan Zaremski & Stephen Basaha [04:02–04:18] -
On Profit Motive vs. Public Good:
"What the railroads would say is it's our duty to our stockholders to maximize our profit. What you are saying is that there's a societal benefit...and how do you reconcile that?"
— Alan Zaremski [06:06] -
On California High-Speed Rail:
"It's turned out to be much more expensive than anybody expected it to be."
— Alan Zaremski [07:43] -
On Northeast Corridor Success:
"We actually have a very successful passenger rail system in the Northeast Corridor... It's an efficient, effective system."
— Alan Zaremski [09:01] -
Final Takeaway:
"Passenger trains are almost never profitable, not even in Europe. Those trains are supported by taxpayer dollars."
— Alan Zaremski [09:31]
Timestamps for Major Segments
- [00:24]: Stephen's train ride, setting up the big question
- [02:20]: Introduction of Alan Zaremski
- [03:00]: Zaremski's thesis: U.S. as world freight rail leader
- [03:47]: Geographic and demographic explanation for the US/Europe divergence
- [04:27]: Discussion of railroad profitability and Warren Buffett
- [05:11]: Track-sharing conflicts and history of Amtrak service
- [06:03]: Capitalist vs. societal perspectives on passenger trains
- [06:43]: U.S. transport subsidies context
- [07:29]: California high-speed rail difficulties
- [09:01]: The success of the Northeast Corridor & the corridor model
- [09:42]: Funding realities and lessons from Europe
Conclusion
This episode challenges the narrative that the U.S. lacks a robust train system due to backwardness or incompetence. Instead, the choice for freight over passenger rail is rooted in geography, business incentives, and political will. Expanding passenger rail to European levels would require costly new infrastructure and, crucially, public willingness to fund it as a social good—as is already the case with highways and airports.
Zaremski ultimately argues for nuance and balance, recognizing both the economic realities and the societal benefits of rail systems, leaving listeners with the core idea: if Americans want more passenger trains, they’ll have to collectively decide it’s worth the investment.