Is Indigenous education at risk?

Summary

Episode Summary: Is Indigenous Education at Risk?

Podcast: The Inquiry, BBC World Service
Host: Charmaine Cozier
Date: August 4, 2026

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Overview

This episode of The Inquiry asks: “Is Indigenous education at risk?” Against the backdrop of sweeping curriculum changes in New Zealand, especially the removal of a legal mandate for schools to include Māori knowledge and culture, the episode explores the ramifications for Indigenous education in Aotearoa/New Zealand, draws parallels with Canada, and examines the balance between standardized and culturally responsive curricula. Four expert witnesses share historical context, policy analysis, comparative perspectives, and their hopes and warnings for the future.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The History and Importance of Māori Education

Witness: Mere Skerritt, Associate Professor, Te Herenga Waka (Victoria University of Wellington)

• Why Māori Language and Culture in Schools Matters
  • “It's incredibly important to have Māori language, culture, identity reflected in the education system because it gives a sense of well being.” (02:34)
  • Not just for Māori children; all children in Aotearoa benefit.
• Colonial Erasure and Decline of Te Reo Māori
  • Post-1847: State funding tied to English instruction, leading to a decline in Māori language.
  • By 1950, only 1% of Māori children spoke their language. (04:10)
• Revival Through Activism
  • 1970s: Community activism and the creation of kōhanga reo (language nest preschools).
  • Rapid growth from one to 900 kōhanga reo centers in a decade (05:44).
• Legislative Inclusion
  • 2019: Māori history made compulsory in schools.
  • 2020: Legal obligation added for school boards to reflect local Māori knowledge and values (06:36).
  • Teachers made efforts to include Māori language, ceremonies (pōwhiri), and environmental values (kaitiakitanga, manaakitanga) in classrooms.
  • "It's all come about through the revitalisation of our language..." (07:10)
• Recent Policy Rollbacks
  • 2025: New government removed the legal obligation, arguing Treaty obligations fall outside school boards’ remit (08:15).
  • Parents retain the right to request Te Reo Māori be taught, but it’s no longer universal.
• Enduring Significance
  • “When Māori language thrives, all our people thrive.” (08:36)

2. The Curriculum Debate: The Push for Basics

Witness: Dame Elizabeth Rata, Professor, University of Auckland; curriculum architect

• Significance of Curriculum Reform
  • New Zealand is returning to a standardized, knowledge-rich curriculum due to parental demand (09:18).
  • Critique of previous trends towards student-driven inquiry and lack of nationwide standardization.
  • “We are going back to a standardised curriculum that is rich in subject knowledge.” (10:18)
• Structure and Scope
  • New curriculum covers ages 5–17, emphasizing reading, writing, maths, and science (12:00).
  • Detailed content per subject for parental transparency.
• Indigenous Knowledge’s Place
  • “Traditional knowledge is important ... in how it contributes to mythologies... to social studies and to history... But traditional knowledge is not science.” (12:45)
  • Stresses the distinction between scientific methods and Indigenous knowledge; both are valued, but differently.
  • “This new curriculum offers the opportunity for all New Zealand children to have the type of quality education we used to have. We want it back.” (14:09)
• Tension
  • Concerns from some educators and the public that standardization may sideline Indigenous content.

3. International Perspective: Canada’s Experience

Witness: Lindsay Morcom, Professor & Canada Research Chair, Queen’s University

• Provincial Variability
  • “Some provinces are doing much better than others in terms of their integration of Indigenous knowledges...” (16:04)
• Defining Decolonizing Education
  • “Decolonizing education means examining the social inequities ... as a result of colonial structures and working to dismantle those.” (16:31)
• Policy Developments
  • Ontario updated its curriculum to include more Indigenous perspectives (grades K–8 and 10) (16:51).
  • Some high schools replace English or fine arts with Indigenous literature or art courses, but offerings aren’t yet mandatory (17:06).
• Drivers of Change
  • Truth and Reconciliation Commission’s findings (2015) highlighted abuses in residential schools; spurred reforms (17:34).
  • “That really put pressure on governments to make meaningful changes.” (18:14)
• Persistent Challenges
  • Shortages of Indigenous language teachers hinder language revitalization (18:33).
  • Teacher training gaps result in either avoidance or inaccurate teaching of Indigenous material (19:24).
  • “The big solution to that problem is more professional development for teachers.” (19:28)
  • Most curriculum control is provincial, with limited community input.
• Community Programs
  • Over 500 First Nation immersion schools and urban Friendship Centres support education and cultural sharing (19:53).
• Impact
  • “I have seen a difference in terms of awareness... young people coming out of schools ... are more aware of Indigenous knowledges.” (20:13)

4. Social Implications and Risks

Witness: Liana MacDonald, Associate Professor, University of Otago

• Loss of Progress
  • “It feels to me like we've taken a step backwards in terms of becoming a society that really understands each other's perspectives.” (20:41)
• Effects on Students
  • A devaluing of Indigenous content can alienate not just Māori, but all students (21:00).
  • “If teachers are so focused on these sort of literacy and numeracy approaches ... applying the strategies they need to do to support Māori students is going to be ... not there at all for teachers.” (21:38)
  • Risks of tokenism if Māori culture is tacked on rather than integrated (23:24).
• Community Response
  • Many schools and educators oppose the removal of requirements; “an overwhelming response ... they didn't agree with the government's approach.” (23:24)
• Societal Stakes
  • Teaching Māori and New Zealand history seen as vital for better race relations and mutual understanding (22:43).
• Key Warning
  • Curriculum, teacher shortages, training gaps, and inconsistent political will all threaten Indigenous education’s visibility and accessibility (24:00).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “When Māori language thrives and all of our people thrive.” — Mere Skerritt (08:36)
• “We are going back to a standardized curriculum that is rich in subject knowledge.” — Elizabeth Rata (10:18)
• “Traditional knowledge ... both have a place in our curriculum. But traditional knowledge is not science.” — Elizabeth Rata (12:45)
• “Decolonizing education means examining the social inequities ... and working to dismantle those.” — Lindsay Morcom (16:31)
• “If teachers are so focused on these sort of literacy and numeracy approaches ... support for Māori students is going to be ... not there at all.” — Liana MacDonald (21:38)
• “I wouldn't like to see teachers going into a situation where they were teaching predominantly Eurocentric content for like 80% of the time and then switched and did a little bit of Māori culture and heritage, because that can feel quite tokenistic.” — Liana MacDonald (23:24)
• “We're going to have a system that is fairer and more equitable for all of us and a system where we can make real connection and really see each other's humanity.” — Lindsay Morcom (24:39)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:14 – Introduction to the episode and the current situation in New Zealand
• 02:34–09:00 – Mere Skerritt on Māori education history, resurgence, and recent rollbacks
• 09:10–14:09 – Elizabeth Rata on curriculum standardization and the debate over Indigenous knowledge’s place
• 16:04–20:32 – Lindsay Morcom on Canadian provincial experiences, Truth and Reconciliation Commission, teacher shortages
• 20:41–24:00 – Liana MacDonald on the social consequences of policy changes in New Zealand
• 24:00–24:55 – Summary and concluding reflections

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Concluding Reflection

The episode underscores that Indigenous education’s future is shaped not only by policy, but by the deeper currents of community will, teacher support, and the respective value placed on traditional knowledge alongside core academic skills. Both New Zealand and Canada illustrate promises and pitfalls: advances through advocacy, setbacks from political shifts, and a shared realization that the cultural fabric in schools matters for all students—and for society.

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Flow & Tone

• The discussion blends regret over setbacks, pride in community resistance, and cautious optimism for inclusive, responsive education.
• The tone is factual, contemplative, with moments of passion from the witnesses on the cultural stakes involved.

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This summary aims to capture the spirit, depth, and critical moments of the episode, allowing those who haven’t listened to grasp its key debates and insights.

Transcript

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[Charmaine Cozier]

Welcome to the inquiry from the BBC World Service. I'm Charmaine Cozier. Each week, one question, four expert witnesses and an answer. November 2025 New Zealand the removal of a national legal obligation for school boards is announced. A clause in the Education act had required the culture of indigenous Mori people to be incorporated in classrooms. Also happening is the biggest makeover of the education system for decades, including the phased rollout of a plan to reshape the national curriculum called Teaching the Basics brilliantly, with reading, writing, maths and science as core subjects. New Zealand's coalition government, led by the Centre Right National Party, says education reform is necessary to reverse declining student achievement and give disadvantaged children the opportunity to succeed and change their futures. Not everyone's convinced, arguing that switching a universal mandate to an option and reworking the curriculum narrows choice and stands to erode years of advancement in expanding access to Mori heritage and culture. So this week we're asking, is Indigenous education at risk?

[Mere Skerritt]

Part 1 A hard road. Oh, it's incredibly important to have Mori language, culture, identity reflected in the education system because it gives a sense of well being. My name is Mere Skerritt. I am an associate professor in the School of Education at Te Heerenga Waka or Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand. One of our main aims in Mori education is that our young children are secure in their own identity. That's knowing language, Te Reo Mori, knowing their culture, knowing their roots, knowing where they come from, knowing which marae you know they Whakapapatu, or their genealogical links to the land, important for them to

[Liana MacDonald]

know all of that.

[Mere Skerritt]

But not just Mori children, really. It's for all of our children in Aotearoa to give them a sense of this place and a sense of belonging to this place.

[Charmaine Cozier]

Aotearoa is the Maori name for New Zealand. It means land of the long white cloud. Maori people were the first to live there after arriving from Polynesian islands around seven or 800 years ago. In 1840, it became a British colony. A founding document was agreed with hundreds of Maori chiefs, but not all of them, and British law was established. There are two versions of it. Tetritio Watani is in Maori and the Treaty of Watangi is in English. They're not exact translations, so disagreements over its interpretation are ongoing.

[Mere Skerritt]

So just within seven years of signing the treaty, Governor Gray decided that shifted money or funding that was going into the missionary schools, to schools that taught totally through the medium of English. She only got funded if English was the medium of instruction, which was a big shift away. That was in the Education Ordinance, 1847. The first missionary that came out here and wrote a reader actually for teaching young Mori children was in 1815, a long time before signing the treaty. So the language of instruction was all in Te Reo Mori. All the missionaries learnt how to speak Mori. But then once 1847 hit and successive legislative documents or movements to eradicate Mori language, once that started to systematically kick in, Te Reo Mori across the 1900s really went into rapid decline. So much so that by 1950, basically only 1% of young Mori children would have been speaking Te Reo Mori.

[Charmaine Cozier]

So when would you say the approach of making Mori culture and heritage part of mainstream education really started to happen?

[Mere Skerritt]

In the 1970s there was a lot of activism. Play centres had a big part to play in the erasure of Mori language because they were teaching the older children to speak English and those children, children were taking English into the homes. And it wasn't until 1982 that the first kangaroo opened.

[Charmaine Cozier]

Kohongaru translates to language nest. It's an early childhood care and education centre.

[Mere Skerritt]

So once that opened, the model was set and there was an exponential increase in the numbers of Khanga over the next decade, went from one to nearly 900 in the space of 10 years. So in the 1980s we stepped outside of the system because it wasn't happening. It was very monolingual, English only, English dominant system. We stepped out to start our Kangareo through a Mori immersion approach, so that we had Young ones that were living, breathing, eating, sleeping, you know.

[Charmaine Cozier]

Through Te Reo Mori immersion schools expanded to include older children.

[Mere Skerritt]

But still it's a very small stream of education. 97% of our tamariki or our children, our young people, are actually in the English stream of education and actually being failed in that system. So the successes and the gains have been made in the Mori medium sector.

[Charmaine Cozier]

There were gains in the public school system too. In 2019, the ruling Labour government announced that New Zealand history, including Mori history and colonisation, would be compulsory in all primary and secondary schools. It had been optional. Mori leaders and educators were actively involved in creating the content. Then in 2020, a clause in the Education and Training act referenced the 1840 treaty to make reflecting local Mori knowledge, values and worldviews a legal obligation for school boards, which typically have parents and staff as members.

[Mere Skerritt]

A much more culturally responsive education didn't change overnight, but many of our teachers did make a real concerted effort and commitment to learning the language and including in the curriculum aspects like Po Whiri, which is welcoming ceremonies, acknowledging that Papatuanuku is not just an object to be commodified or chopped up and sold. I'm talking about Mother Earth here, Papatuanuku, but that she was a living entity and we were part of her. And so that opened up ideas about Kaitiakitanga, you know, that caring for our environment, for the Tai au Mana Kitanga, having that give and take reciprocity is a very big value in Te Ao Mori and the Mori world. All of these values started to be taught and incorporated into the curriculum. It's all come about through the revitalisation of our language in the early childhood sector, in schools, in secondary schools, and everything has gone next level.

[Charmaine Cozier]

In 1987, a new law made Te Reo Mori an official language of New Zealand. Late last year, the National Party led coalition government removed the legal obligation, saying 1840 treaty obligations fall outside the responsibilities of school school boards. Parents do have a legal right to ask schools to teach Te Reo Mori.

[Mere Skerritt]

So it's been a long road, a hard road, that our ancestors fought these battles and we continue on. But certainly when Mori language thrives and all of our people thrive. And of course education is one of those places where it's important to continue to make joint, inclusive decisions about what counts as curriculum rather than imposed curriculum from the powers that be.

[Charmaine Cozier]

New Zealand's latest national curriculum is being rolled out in phases. Our next expert witness has been involved in shaping it.

[Mere Skerritt]

Part 2 the best in the world again.

[Charmaine Cozier]

So how Significant a change does this represent?

[Elizabeth Rata]

Oh, it's enormously significant. It's huge. I mean, parents have been crying out for it for several decades now. It is most unfair, fortunate that the movement against the knowledge rich curriculum is led by a group of ideologues in academia and in the public service. Now they are the ones getting all the attention from the mainstream media.

[Charmaine Cozier]

Dame Elizabeth Rata is a professor in the Faculty of Education at the University of Auckland in New Zealand and one of the writers of the New English syllabus. For years 7 through to 13 years before that, she developed the Curriculum Design Coherence Model. It essentially involves interconnected elements linking ideas, practical skills and facts in a way that aims to make learning progression and outcomes clear and logical. It's being used to structure New Zealand's education transformation.

[Elizabeth Rata]

Can you imagine what it's like to be in a country where there is no standardised curriculum across the nation and you know, your child might move from one district to another and you've got no idea what will be taught in the school they go to. I mean, it's made it so difficult for parents. So we are going back to a standardised curriculum that is rich in subject knowledge.

[Charmaine Cozier]

The scale of change is extensive.

[Elizabeth Rata]

Well, we're speaking right through from 5 year olds right through to 16, 17 year olds to the end of second school. Now I must point out that many schools did hold on to knowledge and continued to teach the sort of rigorous curriculum that New Zealand education has been known for. We had a world class education system from the 19th century up until the 1970s and it was at that point that I can see the shift away from sound subject knowledge to the approach that children will construct their own. Rather than being taught something by teachers who are knowledgeable in the subject, you now have young people deciding what they want to learn, conducting their own inquiries. So there was a randomness about what material they were engaged with. It wasn't structured, it wasn't designed according to the content of respective subjects. There was a confusion to the content.

[Charmaine Cozier]

Reading, writing, maths and science are at the heart of the new curriculum and

[Elizabeth Rata]

we're rolling out the subjects so not all subjects have been completed, but each subject has very detailed content so that you will know as a parent what your child is being taught from the age of five right through to the age of 16, 17 when they leave school.

[Charmaine Cozier]

What do you make of the view that indigenous knowledge is somehow not as important as non indigenous knowledge? And it's that tension which surfaces in education provision in terms of what is or what isn't a compulsory subject in a school.

[Elizabeth Rata]

Any traditional knowledge is important in how it contributes to mythologies. So in literature for example, it's important in how it contributes to social studies and to history. How did people navigate? How did people travel? So indigenous knowledge, it's really important that as New Zealanders we know the knowledge that comes from the past, from Mori ancestors and from colonial ancestors. Now protoscience, the type of knowledge developed as pre science, knowledge that is developed using observation, using experience, knowledge that all our ancestors developed in that way, is not what we would call modern science today. It's not physics and chemistry and biology. It's a different type of knowledge. And to attempt to equate them especially in terms of value is making a false equivalence. The value for both is very different and they both have a place in our curriculum. But but traditional knowledge is not science. There are a huge range of Mori. You could look at the range in terms of socio economic class. For example, you have the tribal elite, you have growing numbers of middle class professional mori. Then you have Mori who a number have fallen into welfare dependency. But that's the same for other groups as well, no? This new curriculum offers the opportunity for all New Zealand children to have the type of quality education we used to have. We want it back. We want to be the best in the world again.

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[Charmaine Cozier]

Canada is among other countries where indigenous education is part of mainstream schooling. But before we hear more on that from our next expert witness, just a quick reminder that other episodes of the inquiry, like why did so many Indigenous children die in Canada's residential schools? Or can we live with Extreme Heat? Are available wherever you get your podcasts. Click to subscribe.

[Mere Skerritt]

Part 3 Education evaluation.

[Lindsay Morcom]

I think that because Canada is such a large country, standardization is not as much a concern. However, some provinces are doing much better than others in terms of their integration of Indigenous knowledges and their honouring of Indigenous intellectual traditions.

[Charmaine Cozier]

Lindsay Morcom is a professor in Canada, Research Chair in Language Revitalisation and Decolonising Education at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario.

[Lindsay Morcom]

It's hard to define, but to me, decolonizing education means examining the social inequities that we have in our education system as a result of colonial structures and working to dismantle those and understanding where we're complicit in those.

[Charmaine Cozier]

So what does that look like within Canada's public school system?

[Lindsay Morcom]

There have been some really positive changes in Ontario recently in our curriculum designs. So the curriculum from kindergarten to grade 8 and grade 10, social studies and history were updated to better include Indigenous perspectives.

[Charmaine Cozier]

That's up to 15 to 16 years old.

[Lindsay Morcom]

We've also had developments in terms of the Indigenous studies curriculum. So right now Indigenous studies courses are not mandatory for anybody. But many school boards are working to change that. So there's a new Indigenous art course for grade nine that is becoming a replacement for the fine arts courses in grade nine. And the grade 11 English has been replaced in many schools by an Indigenous literatures course.

[Charmaine Cozier]

So what's driving those changes?

[Lindsay Morcom]

I think there's been a lot more social pressures. So that's happening now because in 2015 we had the release of the findings of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada.

[Charmaine Cozier]

That was the body set up to inform the public about widespread abuse in state and church funded residential schools for Indigenous people in the 19th and mid 20th centuries. During that time, over 150,000 children were removed by force from their families, cut off from their cultures and religions. Thousands of them died from diseases and neglect. It described the actions of that school system as amounting to cultural genocide against Indigenous people.

[Lindsay Morcom]

And so we need to respond to that by improving education for Indigenous children, but also including education for the general public. And that I think really put pressure on governments to make meaningful changes. And change has been seen slow.

[Charmaine Cozier]

What's the status in terms of learning Indigenous languages?

[Lindsay Morcom]

So my research focuses largely on urban language revitalization and that is something that's really difficult to achieve in provincial schools. In our local school board, for example, it's been very difficult to get teachers. And so children have been learning their languages online. And I think that that's an across the board issue that tells us that we really need to be training more teachers for Indigenous language education. And that is complicated by the fact that we have so many Indigenous languages. But that is not an insurmountable issue. It really has to do with teacher availability and political will. In provincial schools, things are at the whim of the provincial government. So in public schools, because everything is overseen by the provincial government, with much less community input, there's less commitment to ensuring that Indigenous knowledges are present.

[Charmaine Cozier]

There are also challenges for teachers who are new to Indigenous perspectives.

[Lindsay Morcom]

They're being expected to teach that to young people when they don't have that knowledge themselves. And that has resulted in incorrect teaching or real reticence to teach. And so ideas and conversations are avoided. The big solution to that problem is more professional development for teachers. But the emphasis does need to be on Indigenous education if we're asking people to teach information that they don't have.

[Charmaine Cozier]

Beyond the Canadian public school system, There are over 500 First Nation on reserve immersion schools. There's also a National association of Friendship Centres or Community hubs in urban areas. They provide culturally relevant programs and services as well as opportunities for non Indigenous people to learn and share traditions.

[Lindsay Morcom]

I think I have seen a difference in terms of awareness of Indigenous histories. I see that young people coming out of schools, now into post secondary, into my classroom, are more aware of Indigenous knowledges. We're seeing an increase of Indigenous students learning to be teachers, that they're able to serve their own communities.

[Charmaine Cozier]

Time to return to New Zealand for our final Expert Witness, Part 4, Hard Lessons.

[Liana MacDonald]

The reason why I feel disappointed because it feels to me like we've taken a step, step backwards in terms of becoming a society that really understands each other's perspectives, understands each other's challenges. My name is Liana MacDonald. I'm an associate professor of peace studies. I'm also the co director of Te Aworunga Marairoa, the National Centre of Peace and Conflict Studies at Otakau Whakaihu Waka, which is the University of Otago, not just MORI students. For any young person, when they come into an environment, into a classroom or a school system that values a different cultural perspective, that values experiences, I guess, that are removed from their own, then that's going to make you feel isolated and uncomfortable.

[Charmaine Cozier]

One concern is that the core focus of the new curriculum risks compounding that experience.

[Liana MacDonald]

You know, if teachers are so focused on these sort of literacy and numeracy approaches that the government's proposing and doing the professional development and applying the strategies that they need to do to support MORI students is going to be in the periphery or not there at all for teachers. And not only that, like implicitly, when things Mori are raised, there's going to be this sort of message from, for non Mori students that these things aren't of value. And when Mori families want to raise concerns or want to suggest different approaches. My concern is also that there might be a backlash from non Mori communities that that information or that approach isn't important. So, yeah, there's a lot of dynamics there that are very worrying.

[Charmaine Cozier]

Concerns and objections to existing and upcoming government actions on education include the new curriculum structure, teaching method, content and what that might mean for universal access to Indigenous teaching and society beyond the classroom.

[Liana MacDonald]

The hope for Mori, at least, that in teaching these histories, our perspectives of what it's like to live in Aotearoa, New Zealand, would be more available for non Mori, which would then create conditions where there'd be better race relations or better social relations. Social conditions as a result of Mori and non Mori people knowing each other better, knowing where we come from, knowing our backgrounds, knowing that for Indigenous Mori people, growing up in Aotearoa and the whole history of colonisation was not easy.

[Charmaine Cozier]

Not long after the legal requirement to incorporate local Mori culture in classrooms was removed, a number of schools said they planned to continue with it.

[Liana MacDonald]

I don't know the exact figures, but there was an overwhelming response from schools, teachers, principals, those on the boards that were helping to govern schools, the wider community. They all signed these letters saying that they didn't agree with the government's approach. I wouldn't like to see teachers going into a situation where they were teaching predominantly Eurocentric content for like 80% of the time and then switched and did a little bit of Maori culture and heritage, because that can feel quite tokenistic.

[Charmaine Cozier]

So returning to our main Is Indigenous education at risk? The risk factors shared by many countries include teacher shortages, professional training and development gaps, curriculum content and the instability of political will and priorities. Given the cumulative effect of those, it's not hard to see the hazards to accessibility or visibility. New Zealand's government says extensive education reforms are necessary to stop children being left behind. As our expert witness from Canada, Lindsay Morcom notes, perhaps there's a bigger lesson to be learned beyond school walls.

[Lindsay Morcom]

I think it's extremely important that all of us look at the education system and think about how we can do a better job, because then we're going to have a system that is fairer and more equitable for all of us and a system where we can make real connection and really see each other's humanity.

[Charmaine Cozier]

Thanks for joining us. To find past episodes like can the New World Screw Worm be Stopped? Or can we solve our Space Junk problem? Look for the Inquiry podcast wherever you get yours. Click to subscribe this episode of the Inquiry was written and presented by me, Charmaine Cozier. The producers were Evie Yabsley and Jill Collins, researcher Amelia Cox, editor Tom Bigward and technical producer Nathaniel Danter.

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[Mere Skerritt]

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He heard me praying while he was shooting and he just stopped. He said, I'm not going to. I'm going to leave you here to tell the story.

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[Lindsay Morcom]

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[Lindsay Morcom]

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