Is your doorbell using AI to spy on you?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Interface – "Is your doorbell using AI to spy on you?"

Host(s): Thomas Germain, Karen Hao, Nicky Woolf
Date: February 12, 2026

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Overview:

In this episode, the Interface team—Tom Germain, Karen Hao, and Nicky Woolf—delve into the increasing use of AI-driven surveillance in everyday technology, focusing on Ring doorbells and their controversial new feature. They also discuss the cultural and political ripple effects of TikTok’s U.S. takeover, and the high-stakes, personal rivalries driving the AI industry's development, particularly the feud between OpenAI and Anthropic. The tone is sharp, witty, and deeply informed, making complex tech topics accessible and engaging.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights:

1. Ring Doorbells & Mass Surveillance

The Viral Super Bowl Ad and ‘Search Party’ Feature

• Discussion kicks off with Ring’s Super Bowl ad, highlighting a new “Search Party” feature that activates neighborhood doorbell cameras to search for lost dogs ([03:25]).
• Nicky Woolf: “What a lot of people describe it as was a Trojan horse. Who could object to lost dogs? But the functionality of this, the potential for this to be used for other things… you’re trusting every government and a massive tech company here. And that is a huge leap of faith that I don’t think tech companies have really earned.” ([05:17])

Privacy, Law Enforcement, and ICE

• Major concern was opt-out default: Users are automatically included in ‘Search Party’ unless they manually disable it ([07:22]).
• Thomas Germain breaks down Ring’s police collaboration history: “Ring partnered with police departments all over the United States… as a tool to set up police surveillance. In fact, they had this system set up where police could create Ring accounts and get access to camera footage from people’s houses without a warrant.” ([05:58])
• ICE Parallels: Karen Hao highlights how agencies like ICE use tech–including partnerships with Palantir–to expand surveillance through nonofficial channels ([08:24]).
  • Karen Hao: “Think about it: Flock is 80,000 cameras and it’s specifically license plate recognition. Ring is millions and millions and millions more cameras. This is the largest private camera network in the world.” ([08:34])

Ring’s Response & Privacy Trade-offs

• Ring claims only dogs are recognized, no automatic video sharing, and data is only provided to law enforcement when legally required ([09:55]).
• Woolf offers a nuanced take: “These are very useful. My dad, who’s disabled, has… a similar camera installed in his flat so that his carer can always check in… But there is a trade-off, which is giving up control over… what is happening on your property, sometimes inside your own house.” ([10:50])
• Germain on digital hygiene: “If you have a ring camera… open up the Ring camera app… Privacy settings… Everyone should go look at [them].” ([13:10])

Memorable Quote

• Karen Hao on privacy erosion for convenience:
  “These companies kind of use the convenience to erode privacy, but they don’t actually have to do that… They use the convenience doorway into being able to monetize off of really intimate data and intimate moments in people’s lives.” ([12:42])

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2. TikTok’s U.S. Takeover—Why it Matters

Takeover Dynamics & Algorithm Concerns

• BiteDance, TikTok’s Chinese parent, forced to divest U.S. ops to a consortium (including Oracle and Abu Dhabi’s MGX) for security reasons ([15:28]).
• Germain frames TikTok’s outsized influence:
  “TikTok is, I think, without a doubt… the sun at the center of the solar system of the Internet… the locus of online digital culture.” ([16:55])
• Algorithm reset prompts chaos: US-specific TikTok now retraining its recommendation algorithm; initial glitches led to wild speculation about censorship or political bias ([19:36]).

Political Ties and Content Moderation Fears

• Woolf: “There is precedent for this… exactly what did happen after Elon Musk took over Twitter… the algorithm started favouring things based on differing political [views].” ([21:11])
• Germain: “Any concerns you had about China… still have major control over the app… But you can just kind of feel that things are different on there. The videos that are getting recommended are just different.” ([21:57])

Cultural Necessity & Algorithmic Opacity

• Germain on TikTok’s cultural necessity: “You’re not participating in the modern era if you’re not on there.” ([23:32])
• On future risks: “People are going to be looking for examples of where things are going wrong… Is that happening because TikTok and its allies… are putting their thumbs on the scale, or is it just that people are making bad videos that nobody wants to watch? You’ll never know because the algorithm is a total mystery…” ([25:20])

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3. AI Rivalries and the “Beef” That Changed History

Anthropic vs. OpenAI—Super Bowl Ad Showdown

• Anthropic runs a series of humorous attack ads during the Super Bowl, mocking OpenAI’s decision to introduce ads to ChatGPT, and claiming “ads are coming to AI, but not Claude” ([26:25]).
• Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI reacts intensely: “He tweets out this really long dramatic essay… These ads were funny. Second of all, seriously dishonest.” (paraphrased, [28:05])

The Personal Feud’s Origins

• Karen Hao unpacks the origins:
  “This literally is the beef of the century because this is the beef that launched ChatGPT. OpenAI did not actually intend to launch ChatGPT as a product… Rumours started circulating within OpenAI that Anthropic might launch a chatbot before them… So [they] made a decision on the spot to accelerate the launch… And they messaged it as a low key research preview… Instead it just blows up and completely changes history.” ([29:37])

Implications for the AI Sector and Users

• Competition, addiction, and “AI psychosis”
  • Hao: “The New York Times reported… when OpenAI started seeing this drop in its market share, the company internally declared a code orange… tinkering with the model… people are worried the company is going to make the product more addictive… This beef and the competition… is literally driving how hundreds of millions of people are going to be experiencing their AI product.” ([33:32])
  • Germain on AI market volatility: “With AI, there’s all these different companies that make a product that is kind of the same… there’s this desperate competition to be the cool kid in high school. Anthropic launching this ad that makes OpenAI look bad, like that’s a code red.” ([33:08])
  • Hao: “It’s not just a beef between OpenAI and Anthropic… The CEOs of every single AI company has beef with one another. You think… this is primarily driven just by profit and business competition, but actually a huge, huge component… is because these individuals hate each other.” ([34:55])

Memorable Quote

• Hao on tech titan drama:
  “It is the beef that is still fueling so many decisions in the AI race today.” ([32:31])

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps:

• “This is the largest private camera network in the world.”
  — Karen Hao, [08:34]
• “Who could object to lost dogs? But the functionality of this, the potential for this to be used for other things…”
  — Nicky Woolf, [05:17]
• “TikTok is… the sun at the center of the solar system of the Internet.”
  — Thomas Germain, [16:55]
• “This literally is the beef of the century because this is the beef that launched ChatGPT.”
  — Karen Hao, [29:37]

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Timestamps for Important Segments:

• [03:25] – Ring’s ‘Search Party,’ Super Bowl controversy, and privacy implications
• [05:58] – Ring’s law enforcement collaborations and opt-out mechanics
• [08:24] – Tech and ICE: Surveillance infrastructure and Palantir’s reach
• [15:28] – TikTok U.S. takeover context and corporate maneuvers
• [19:36] – TikTok’s algorithm chaos and content moderation fears
• [26:25] – Anthropic’s Super Bowl ad and OpenAI rivalry
• [29:37] – Inside story: How the OpenAI vs. Anthropic feud shaped ChatGPT’s launch
• [33:32] – Ongoing impacts of AI rivalry on user experience and product trajectory

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Summary Takeaways:

• AI-powered consumer tech is quietly scaling up surveillance—with potential for serious privacy trade-offs that users often aren’t explicitly consenting to.
• The boundaries between public safety features and mass surveillance are blurry and easily stretched in the name of convenience or security.
• Platform changes at cultural hubs like TikTok affect everyone, not just “the kids using it,” shaping societal conversation and even politics.
• High-stakes, deeply personal rivalries in the AI world profoundly affect products millions use daily—the personal is very much the political, and the technical.
• Vigilance (both personal and regulatory) is critical, and understanding the backstage drama of tech helps decode what's coming next.

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This episode is fast-paced, accessible, and loaded with both practical tips (like managing device privacy settings) and sharp commentary on tech's biggest controversies. An essential listen for anyone curious about the connective tissue—and drama—binding today's digital world.

Transcript

[A]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

[B]

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[C]

World feels more chaotic than ever. Huge data breaches, AI threatening jobs, foreign meddling, that creeping feeling of obsolescence. It's information overload. I'm Dina Temple Rastin, host of Click Here from PRX and Recorded Future News. Want to understand how we got here and how you can get ahead of it all? Listen to Click Here. We can help you make sense of all the noise wherever you get your podcast.

[D]

Yes, This literally is the beef of the century, because this is the beef that is still fueling so many decisions in the AI race today.

[B]

From the BBC, this is the Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. I'm Thomas Germain, a tech columnist at the BBC who covers how we use technology and how technology uses us.

[D]

I'm Karen Howe, investigative reporter covering all things AI.

[A]

And I'm Nicky Wolfe. I do the weird Internet subculture and national security stuff.

[D]

Today on the Interface, we will be discussing.

[A]

Is your doorbell spying on you and your neighbors?

[B]

Why the US TikTok takeover matters, even if you don't use the app and.

[D]

The beef that launched ChatGPT.

[A]

So who caught the super bowl on Sunday?

[B]

I can't.

[D]

Not I.

[A]

The only Brit in this recording is the only one who watched the Super Bowl, I guess, for the football.

[B]

Yeah, I. I had a friend come over for dinner and I was like, oh, we should watch something. Like, what do you. What do you want to put on? He's like, oh, the super bowl is right. I'd completely forgotten it, which makes me feel like I'm not a real American.

[A]

Maybe not a real American.

[D]

Are you guys, like, big fans of the ads?

[B]

It was this time.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

There's one ad in particular that we want to talk about now, right?

[A]

Yeah. And it got people very riled up because of what it. What it implied. And that ad was by Ring the Doorbell company. Loads and loads of people I know use it. I'm sure that's the Same for you guys. It's very useful. You know, someone rings the doorbell, you have an app on your phone, you can see who stood outside. What they announced during the super bowl ad was a new feature that they've been soft rolling out for a little while called Search Party. They announced it for lost dogs. They were like, we have already saved 99 missing dogs. Because someone, someone whose dog runs away, you can hit the app and it will turn on everyone's ring door cameras and look around for the lost dog.

[B]

I like finding lost dogs. I mean, that sounds nice, but it also means that your camera is part of this giant surveillance network. A lot of people totally freaked out about this, right?

[A]

Yeah. And I think fairly rightly so. I mean, we live in an era where surveillance, mass surveillance, and law enforcement overreach, if we can very diplomatically put it like that, is top of the news.

[D]

I saw this ad too, and I feel like the thing that was. There were two things that made this ad, I think really bad for the company. Like, the first one is that they talked about how this Search Party feature has successfully found 99 dogs in 90 days of operation. There are 10 million lost dogs in the world. So it's like not even a good functioning product like people have been talking about.

[B]

That's pretty good.

[D]

That's literally a 0.005% success rate. Like, they have 99 dogs.

[B]

That's more than no dog. You gotta. I like that.

[D]

That's true. That's true. But the problem number two is that I think the visuals of the ad, I think that's why it set off alarm bells for everyone, because they literally showed all of the homes suddenly lighting up and scanning the streets with blue light to find a dog. And in a moment right now, where so much of the US Is has ICE on the top of their minds, and all the things that have been happening, happening with confrontations between ICE and citizens.

[B]

Immigration and customs enforce horseback.

[D]

Yeah. This is why the ad has gone instantly viral in the wrong direction for the company. Like so many hundreds of thousands, millions of people now are talking about how they never knew that this was a possibility. They had no idea, and they want to immediately opt out of the future or ditch the product.

[A]

And what a lot of people describe it as was a Trojan horse. Who could object to lost dogs. But the functionality of this, the potential for this to be used for other things. Even if we say that the US Government will be absolutely above board with this, and we already know that the US Government has successfully requested and received ring Camera footage. You know, this can. You're trusting every government and a massive tech company here. And that is a huge leap of faith that I don't think tech companies have really earned.

[B]

And Ring in particular, these aren't like, hypothetical concerns like sharing Ring camera footage with law enforcement for a long time, like, was the point. Ring partnered with police departments all over the United States, passed out these cameras, encouraged them to distribute them in neighborhoods, specifically as a tool to set up police surveillance. In fact, they had this system set up where police could create Ring accounts and they could get access to camera footage from people's houses without a warrant. They could just request it from the company and they would hand it right over. This caused a big controversy. There were cases where people were like, they didn't realize that they were handing over, like, their home security footage to police departments and they shut that feature off. But there's all kinds of other concerns, right? There was this big Federal Trade Commission, but I think a lot of people who pay really close attention to Ring saw this ad and were like, yeah, duh. What did you think this was? There's this giant tech company that has all of these cameras all over the United States and all over the world. And yeah, they are in control of that footage. It's stored on their servers. And like you were saying, this search party feature that for now is just about finding lost dogs is on automatically. If you don't want to participate, you have to go.

[A]

This is a huge point.

[B]

Turn it off. They've opted you in.

[D]

It's worth saying as well. Like, the reason why I think people were so freaked out is because of the ICE stuff that's happening right now. And just as you were saying, Tom, that Ring has a history of giving data to law enforcement, ICE also has a history of trying to use data, different types of technology platforms like this one to engage in more surveillance. Like, there was this zine that 404 media published that actually documented a bunch of the different tech apps and tech platforms that ICE has used, including ones that they have partnerships with, like with Palantir, where Palantir is developing this immigration OS platform that's integrating all this data into. From different government agencies to track immigrants, but also from tech companies that they don't actually have official partnerships with. So the 404 zine talks about Flock, which is the. This network of cameras that do automated license recognition in the US and what 404 found was that ICE will ask local police departments that have access to Flock to do searches at the behest of ICE. So think about like flock is 80,000 cameras and it's specifically license plate recognition. Like Ring is millions and millions and millions more cameras. Like, this is the largest private camera network in the world. And that just completely expands to a different scale the level of visibility that a law enforcement agency like ICE could have if they wanted it.

[B]

Palantir, of course, is a tech company founded by the billionaire Peter Thiel that does a lot of data processing for the US government and the military and now ice. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement.

[A]

Yeah, and the UK government just signed a huge, just a few months ago, signed a huge deal with Palantir. So they're also working in security here. I mean, Palantir is literally named for the scrying device that Sauron uses in the Lord of the Rings. I mean, it, it could not be more.

[D]

These tech companies are not subtle.

[A]

But if you name yourself after literally the ultimate evil and one of the largest stories, I think, I mean, help us help you guys. Silicon Valley.

[B]

Now Ring, in their defense, says they have like really robust security practices. We also aren't here to say like, Ring is evil. This is bad, no one should use it. It's, it's a personal choice.

[A]

So we did get in touch with Ring and they got back to us with a response which says that right now this particular feature, search party can only recognize dogs. They said they do have an optional feature called familiar faces that does use human facial recognition. They said that video sharing is never automatic and you can with search party share by choice to share the video with the dog owner. They also said that Ring has no partnership with ice, but they did say that they do hand over data to law enforcement, but only when they're legally required to do so.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, those are pretty robust protections. Right. But I think what a lot of critics are concerned about and also like what a lot of people who saw this ad are worried about is like, it shows you like, the potential of this technology and the kinds of things it could be used for if the company, you know, changes its policies or changes its strategies at some point in the future.

[A]

The, in fairness is that these are very useful. My dad, who's disabled, has a, I don't think it's Ring, but another similar camera installed in his flat so that his carer can always check in and make sure that he hasn't had a fall, make sure that he's safe. Loads of people feel like this makes.

[B]

Them safer, but you know, there's a trade off that people are making like you're saying, Nikki, there's a very real way in which these can help promote the safety of your house and your family. That's, that's an absolutely realistic possibility and outcome of using these products. But there is a trade off, which is giving up control over, you know, what is happening on your own property, sometimes inside your own house. And it opens you up to potential consequences in the future. I mean, you could think about people talk about your data. You know, maybe no one's doing anything bad with it right now, but the fact that it exists means that someday in the future, it could be used for a purpose that you don't like or you're not comfortable with.

[A]

Yeah. And it is possible to say, I can see the argument that this is worth it for the chance at saving a life, even for the chance at finding your dog. Right. But that's the question that we're being asked. And because it's opt out rather than opt in, that's not even a question we're being asked.

[B]

And in terms of questions being answered for you, let's say you're not comfortable with having a ring camera. If your neighbor across the street puts one on their door and it's pointed towards your house and you're filming, there's nothing you could do about that. So it's like other people are deciding.

[A]

And I think this speaks to one of the key questions that surrounds all of tech, which is how much privacy are you willing to sacrifice for convenience?

[D]

Yeah, I mean, this is one of the things is like these companies kind of use the convenience to erode privacy, but they don't actually have to do that. Right. Like, they could provide these features without also accessing the footage. So they kind of use the convenience doorway into being able to monetize off of really intimate data and intimate moments in people's lives.

[B]

If you want to turn this off, it's very easy to do. If you have a ring camera, you open up the Ring camera app, you go to the homepage, there's like a little menu up at the top that you can click on, and then you go to the control center and there should be a feature there called search party. Or it'll say something like opt into or opt out of helping to find lost pets. Which, I mean, why would you want to do that? We all, we love lost pets. So this is easy to turn off if you're not comfortable with it. There are a whole bunch of other privacy settings that you can go switch off as well, which is something that I really think Everyone should go look at. Like, even if you're totally comfortable with Ring, if you've got one of these things on the front of your house or inside your house, just go look at what privacy settings they offer you with and make sure you're comfortable with.

[D]

It a hundred percent.

[B]

Yeah, we're fixated on Ring here. But just think for a second about all of the products in your house that are connected to the Internet. All of them are collecting information. I know at Karen's house, it's like you're a Luddite, so it's just like a bunch of rocks and stones. Like nothing. Like, I don't even know if you have WI Fi. But for the rest of us, there's even. I worry about this stuff, and it's worth just putting in any effort that you can. You know, after you're done listening to the show, just check it out, see what's out there. It's worth your time.

[D]

I. I love that. I, like, surprisingly, do not have a digital hygiene routine, so I feel like after this episode, I'm immediately gonna. Yeah, I'm gonna.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And look at my two technology objects in my house.

[A]

Right?

[B]

You're like. Like 2005 Nokia brick cell phone. Yeah. And your. Your abacus. You know.

[C]

The digital world feels more chaotic than ever. Huge data breaches, AI threatening jobs, foreign meddling, that creeping feeling of obsolescence. It's information overload. I'm Dina Temple Rast and host of Click Here from PRX and Recorded Future News. Want to understand how we got here and how you can get ahead of it all? Listen to Click Here. We can help you make sense of all the noise wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

So we've been talking about the power that all these technology companies have over our lives, and I think there's one in particular right now that perhaps, like, culturally and the conversations we're all having, that has more of an influence than any other, and that is TikTok. And it's a good moment to be talking about it because there was this huge transition. There's a TikTok takeover, right? Where the company that owns TikTok, a Chinese company called Bite Dance, was forced to sell the US Operations of the app to a consortium of other companies in order to keep operating in the US because of a bunch of laws that the government passed over, you know, privacy and security and national security concerns. So now, as of January 22, TikTok's US version of the app is now owned by three different companies, including Oracle, which is a Big data processing company owned by Larry Ellison, who's a major Trump donor and ally, and a company called mgx, which is based in Abu Dhabi, which did a big crypto deal with the Trump family and then, like, another, like, investment firm. So what's been happening on the app is absolute chaos over the past couple weeks. And I know a lot of people, you know, hear this, and they go, oh, TikTok, like, whatever. I don't care about that. I think we've kind of gotten over some.

[A]

Isn't that for Gen Z? Like, what's right?

[B]

It's like, there's. There. You still hear people go, oh, that's where the kids are dancing. This matters to your life whether or not you use TikTok. You hate TikTok. You've never watched a TikTok video in your life. It still has a major influence over your life in your future. TikTok is, I think, without a doubt, it's like the sun at the center of the solar system of the Internet. Right. It's. It's not the biggest app in the world of social media. Not even close. But it has become, like, the locus of online digital culture. It's the place where conversations start and then branch out into other parts of the Internet and then leak into the real world.

[A]

It's the cultural engine room right now.

[B]

Exactly.

[D]

The most compelling explanation of TikTok that I've ever heard. Like, I personally think about TikTok, but now I'm feeling FOMO.

[B]

Yeah, it. It is a really, really important ecosystem. And what people are freaking out about now is the app is undergoing some major changes. So part of this deal that was struck, among the big concerns is that the Chinese government might have control over the algorithm and they might, like, spread propaganda.

[A]

There was this amazing hearing in the U.S. senate where the CEO of ByteDance.

[B]

Oh, yeah, well, that was the CEO of TikTok, not the CEO of ByteDance. That was.

[A]

Oh, right, right.

[B]

So that's.

[A]

But yeah, the.

[B]

The.

[A]

I think it was Tom Tillis. The senator was like, have you ever been a member of the Chinese Communist Party? And the guy's like. He was like, so I'm. I'm Singaporean. The guy's like, have you ever been a citizen of China? And the guy's like, I'm Singaporean.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But there is no reason to think that. I mean, Tom, maybe you can quote me on this, but there's no reason to think that your data is less safe with TikTok than it is with, say, Meta or Elon Musk's. Twitter.

[B]

There was never. We've been talking about TikTok freaking out about it for years. There has never been a single shred of actual evidence that has been produced that anything untoward happened with the Chinese government and American TikTok data. Never. There hasn't been one shred of evidence. It's all been speculation about things that could go wrong. So these. This new set of companies took over. It's called the US joint venture is what TikTok is calling it. And part of their plan is that they were going to retrain the algorithm, like, take the algorithm and start over from scratch and, like, build a new one. And in the first few days, like, the first week after the app rolled out, things just went nuts.

[D]

What do you mean by that? Like, what. What happened?

[B]

So it seemed to a lot of people, like, there was censorship. So the TikTok account, the official account for the Democrats in the United States, like, usually their videos get, like, millions of views. All of a sudden, they were posting videos that were getting, like, zero views or like, a couple of thousand. There were some examples screenshots sent online where people said, like, they were trying to send messages that had the word Epstein in them and they weren't getting sent. And also there was all this weird stuff. Like, if you looked at the search page, it was suggesting all of this, like, weird, creepy stuff. Like, it would suggest that you search, like, don't look at that mirror in your house. Like, just the weirdest stuff in the world. It turned out that what was happening was that there was this big snowstorm a couple of weeks ago across the United States. And according to TikTok, a data center had a power outage and the app was just going haywire because things weren't working. Then very quickly, like, everything kind of went back to normal. But what we do know is the app is retraining the algorithm, right? They're going to shift how it recommends videos, what it recommends, and people are worried that these companies that now have control over this app have these ties to the Trump administration, and perhaps they could use this new power that they have to promote ideas that are beneficial to Trump or the American government or suppress criticism.

[A]

And it's worth saying there is precedent for this, right? This is people. People are not worried for no reason. This is exactly what did happen after Elon Musk took over Twitter is that the algorithm started favoring things based on differing political.

[B]

And he open, openly said that Twitter.

[A]

At the time was basically in that same position of being a cultural engine room. And it really changes conversation off the app in a way that affects people's lives, even if you've never been on Twitter or TikTok.

[D]

Tom, to take a step back when you said that they're retraining the algorithm, like, how is it actually working between all of these companies? Like, is Oracle the one that's going to be retraining the algorithm, is the other company? And have they said anything about why they're retraining the algorithm or what they're going to retrain the algorithm with?

[B]

That's a really interesting question. So part of the agreement in the sale of the app is that they have to retrain the algorithm because the algorithm is intellectual property. And ByteDance, the company that, you know, owns most of TikTok, they still have like a 20% share in this new company, the TikTok joint venture. So any concerns that you had about China, it's not like those have gone away, right? Like, China still has major control over the app. I think it's like there's this new company called the TikTok Joint Venture and like the company is doing it. So Oracle, this giant tech company that Larry Ellison owns, is certainly involved in that process. But, like, you can just kind of feel that things are different on there. The videos that are getting recommended are just different and like the order of.

[D]

Video, whatever reason, they just have Larry Ellison's face in every single one.

[B]

So weird.

[A]

I've never been on TikTok. I've seen things that are tech talks because they come through Instagram reels. I think one of the things I want to do is join TikTok and sort of get an idea of how TikTok works and get a, get a sense of it. If you're, you're. You've been on Tick Tock for a while, right?

[B]

I've been. I'm a big Tick Tock user. I actually joined it because, like, I felt like, well, I'm writing about it. I have to be using this app in order to understand what's going on there. And I really had to force myself to do it. I was like, this is so uncool. I don't want to be using. And then, like, I got completely addicted to it. Like, I have to force myself to put it down. But, yeah, I, I'm a big TikTok user at this point.

[A]

Would you be up for teaching me? Would you give me the. I think we have to.

[B]

Yeah, we gotta get you. Because you're like, really? You're not participating in the modern era. If you're not on there. I mean, Karen, I don't know if we can. We can get you involved, but Nikki.

[D]

I feel like this is a situation where Tom, you're the earthling and Nikki is an alien that's coming to Earth.

[B]

Well.

[D]

And I am like the relative that's still on the other planet. And Nikki's just gonna have to call home every once in a while and explain to me what's happening on Earth.

[B]

Let's talk. Let's set you up with an account. I'll tell you how to make a video, like what you can try and do to go viral and get people to pay attention. That could be like a nice project we're working on in the background.

[A]

Stay tuned. Although, hang on. In the UK, will I be getting the Ellison algorithm or the OG TikTok algorithm?

[B]

Outside of the US, it's the same TikTok it always was there. It's connected to the US TikTok app. So the. The content is flowing back and forth. But you, Nikki, if you set it up, you're still getting that, like, pure, original. It's like classic Coke, right? You're getting the original TikTok algorithm. But what I do want to talk about for a second is maybe why you shouldn't be worried. Like, there are real concerns. What's going to happen with TikTok now? Who's in control? What's going to happen? The algorithm. What we saw with Twitter, now called X, right, is that Elon Musk turned it into an ecosystem to promote his political agenda. Like, he openly said that's what he was doing. And this was, it seems, catastrophic for the app. They lost a ton of users, they lost a ton of advertising revenue. It seemed like this wasn't a great business decision. It certainly wasn't handled in a smooth way that didn't upset lots of people and push them off the app. I think with TikTok, there's like three different companies who are investing along with TikTok. I think that these people are more concerned about business and the TikTok app itself making money. And I think they're very worried about upsetting TikTok's users and losing the cultural cachet and the force and the power of this app. We reached out to TikTok to ask them to comment. They declined. But certainly the company's position is that they are as concerned about protecting people's privacy and promoting free speech as they ever have been. That's the company line. That's what it's always been. But in the time that follows, like the future of this app. People are going to be looking for examples of where things are going wrong, where it seems, oh, they're suppressing this kind of content, they're promoting this, and I don't want them to. Is that happening because TikTok and its allies and, you know, people from the Trump administration are putting their thumbs on the scale, or is it just that people are making bad videos that no one wants to watch? You'll never know because the algorithm is a total mystery to people who are using the app.

[D]

Okay, I need to talk to you guys about a different super bowl ad. I, I, I know that we already talked about one super bowl ad, but there was another one that a lot of people were talking about, which was the Anthropic ads.

[A]

I love this. I, I think this is so funny.

[D]

Yes. Anthropic is an Opening Eye competitor. They make the Chatbot Claude. And this is Anthropic basically made four different variations on an ad where there's a user of a trap bot and then there's a trap bot personified in another person who is then basically responding to the person as though they were the chatbot. So one of the ads is like this guy who's trying to work out and he's struggling to work out, and he's like, can I get a six pack really quickly? And then the Chatbot personified is like.

[B]

It'S like his personal trainer, right?

[D]

Yeah. It's like this is like really buff dude standing next to him who has this like, deadpan expression and then goes, perfect. That is a clear, well established goal. Let's start with. And then whatever. And it goes through this whole thing. The chatbot then suddenly goes, and you know what else you should do instead of working out? Have you considered getting these insoles that will make short kings stand taller? And like, every single one of these ads, Ben, has this tagline, ads are coming to AI, but not Claude. I think for most people who saw this ad, it was probably just really funny because obviously OpenAI and Anthropic are competitors, and OpenAI just announced that they are going to be rolling out ads to ChatGPT.

[A]

This was an attack ad, right?

[D]

This was basically a subtweet back in the day when there were subtweets, because OpenAI is not explicitly mentioned anywhere. There's just this reference that ads are coming. And of course, OpenAI is the only, only company that's rolling out ads. This deeply triggered Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI. He tweets out this really Long dramatic essay where he's like, first of all, these ads were funny. Second of all, seriously dishonest. And then he just like insults Anthropic with like more and more intense insults.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

As like the essay goes on. So he says Anthropic serves an expensive product to rich people. And then he goes, one authoritarian company won't get us there on their own. To say nothing of the other obvious risks. It is a dark path.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, we should talk about why OpenAI was so freaked out about this anthropic end. Like the whole AI industry is in this super precarious position and this like weird petty fight between the billionaires who own these different companies actually ultimately will have a direct effect on the experience that you're having on the Internet. It seems like, you know, just this like high school drama. But this, this actually matters in some surprising.

[D]

Yeah. 100. So. So this literally is the beef of the century because this is the be beef that launched ChatGPT. I don't know if you guys know this story. Like, basically OpenAI did not actually intend to launch ChatGPT as a product. When they were in November of 2022, they were actually working on a totally different product, which was this super Assistant. It was going to be like a chatbot, but it was going to be built on GPT4. And they were supposed to launch it in the spring of 2023. But in the fall of 2022, rumors started circulating within OpenAI that anthropic might launch a chatbot before them. And so the executives literally made a decision on the spot to accelerate the launch of the chatbot in two weeks time using not GPT4, which the entire company was working on, but using an older model, GPT 3.5 and just smacking on the user interface that they were already developing for the launch in spring of 2023 onto this older model. And they messaged it to the entire company and also to the public as this is going to be a low key research preview. It's not going to be a real product. It's going to maybe have a small viral moment on the Internet. They wanted specifically to get the data flywheel going. So they wanted that virality to then generate a bunch of interest, get a lot of user data, and then use that user data to train up and refine the real product launch GPT4 that was going to happen later. And instead like they pop this out and it just blows up and completely changes history. Right. And the reason why OpenAI made that decision in that moment is also because of the history of Anthropic. So Anthropic was founded by a splinter group from OpenAI.

[B]

Right. So this is personal.

[D]

Yeah. In late 2020, Dario Amade, CEO of Nowanthropic, was actually a executive at OpenAI, gathers up a bunch of his buddies who were in critical roles within OpenAI, and they decide to leave to start this competitor because they fundamentally disagreed with Sam Altman's approach to running OpenAI, and also fundamentally did not trust Altman's character and did not believe that he would be capable of continuing to run an AI company. Well, this is like a multi year, extremely personal event that has literally shaped the entire trajectory of the AI industry and of people's lives around the world. And it is the beef that is still fueling so many decisions in the AI race today.

[B]

That's the interesting thing. Right. There's, there's this moment that we're getting right now with AI that we haven't had in technology for a long time, which is that there is actual competition. Right. Most of these giant tech companies have these monopolies. Right. Google has a monopoly over search engines. Amazon, like, that's where you go to buy things on the Internet. There's all these companies that have their little fiefdoms and nobody really competes with them and, and they can make their products worse and worse and, or like, in the pursuit of making more money and there's nothing you can do about it. With AI, there's all these different companies that make a product that is kind of the same.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

So there's like this desperate competition to be the cool kid in high school. And like Anthropic launching this ad that makes OpenAI look bad, like, that's a code red. Like, they're freaking out right now because, you know, in a month OpenAI's empire could collapse. Like, I'm not saying that's going to happen, but they're like, everybody is right on the razor's edge right now.

[D]

So we talked about how this beef had a historical importance in actually launching ChatGPT, but it also is going to continue to affect your experience with these chatbots moving forward. Because, for example, the New York Times reported last, late last year that when OpenAI started seeing this, this drop in its market share, the company internally declared a code orange to try and figure out how to get their user numbers and their user engagement back up. And when OpenAI declared that code orange and when they were tinkering with the way that the model behaves, it had a direct effect on users. Like people are worried that the company is going to make the product more addictive. And we have already seen the effect that that had earlier last year when OpenAI accidentally made the product more addictive. And then it led to this entire new phenomenon of AI psychosis. So this beef and the competition between all of these companies is literally driving how hundreds of millions of people are going to be experiencing their AI product. And it's worth noting that it's like not just a beef between OpenAI and Anthropic. Like the CEOs of every single AI company has beef with one another. You think that this industry is primarily driven just by profit and business competition, but actually a huge, huge component of the moves that these companies make and how it's ultimately going to affect your experience on your phone phone is because these individuals hate each other.

[A]

It's so childish.

[B]

And that's our show. Join us next week. If you're in the uk, you can listen on BBC Sounds. Or if you're outside the uk, you can listen wherever you get your podcasts or just search for the Interface podcast on YouTube. If you want to get in touch with us over email, you can reach us at the interface@the BBC.com. You don't need AI agents. Which may sound weird coming from ServiceNow, the leader in AI agents. The truth is, AI agents need you. Sure, they'll process, predict, even get work done autonomously, but they don't dream, read a room, rally a team. And they certainly don't have shower thoughts, pivotal hallway chats or big ideas. People do. And people, when given the best AI platform, they're freed up to do the fulfilling work they want to do. To see how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people, visit ServiceNow.com the Digital.

[C]

World feels more chaotic than ever. Huge data breaches, AI threatening jobs, foreign meddling, that creeping feeling of obsolescence. It's information overload. I'm Dina Teppel, host of Click Here from PRX and Recorded Future News. Want to understand how we got here and how you can get ahead of it all? Listen to Click Here. We can help you make sense of all the noise wherever you get your podcasts.