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The Interview
Aisha Musa, former leader: Can Sudan rebuild?
00:22:54
Former Sudanese leader Aisha Musa on war, refugees and the collapse of democracy.
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- [00:00]
James Copnell
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:06]
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- [02:05]
James Copnell
Hello, I'm the BBC presenter James Copnel and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC people shaping our world from all over the world.
- [02:18]
If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention.
- [02:23]
Aisha Musa
We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing.
- [02:28]
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Do not make that journey.
- [02:29]
Aisha Musa
Being born in America, feeling American, having
- [02:32]
James Copnell
people treat me like I'm not.
- [02:33]
Aisha Musa
We're more popular than populism.
- [02:37]
James Copnell
For this episode I speak to Aisha Musa, one of the civilian figures who helped lead Sudan after the overthrow of Omar al Bashir in 2019, after popular protests led to his fall, Sudan's presidency was replaced by a sovereign council made up of military and civilian representatives. Aisha Musa was one of only two women appointed to the body, an unprecedented position of influence for a woman in Sudan. But hopes of democratic change collapse, first with a coup, and then in April 2023, when a vicious power struggle between Sudan's army and the paramilitary Rapid Support Forces plunged the country into civil war. The conflict has led to famine, accusations of genocide and the deaths of more than 150,000 people. Aisha Musa once worked alongside the generals now leading that war.
- [03:33]
Aisha Musa
Never. I did suspect that something is going to happen in them. I did not see that they could be that blasphemous that they could damage their country to this extent. I knew them as colleagues sitting around the table. We laughed with each other, we ate together, we traveled on the same planes, we attended the same meetings, we discussed and we shouted at each other. And they were very respectful to me and I felt highly respected. I felt like I was actually the chairman of that if Aisha doesn't speak, the meeting is not finished. So I was never afraid of them as a threat to life or to the lives of people.
- [04:21]
James Copnell
Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Ayesha Mousa.
- [04:27]
Aisha Musa
I feel numb, actually. Still, it feels unreal to me having been in Sudan all my life. It looks like a nightmare because for those Sudan during the last three decades has not been in its best here. We have been through quite a lot of difficulties and insecurities. But I have never imagined that it will turn into a war theme, kind of. And it keeps. We thought at first that it is just days or months or even a year. But it went on and it kept escalating. Now it has been moving during these three years. But when it started as a war for us in Khartou, we saw that it is definitely going to stop. It is not going to go that far. But it didn't stop. It went on and on. And we were faced with the fact that even our homes no longer habitable. And people started exhorting. Even at that stage, I was still feeling not safe. But I felt that at my age, where would I go? And I didn't have any alternative. But that home, that house that I have spent all my life trying to build after I lost my husband and to leave. It was something I've never thought about. But I had to. I had to. And it is a long story how we left the house. At first I started housing people and trying to convince them and collecting water for those who needed it and bringing things for people. And then I finished. I used all I used uphold that I have. And I still feel far as I am. I feel so insecure. I left behind a library that as a family, we spent all our life trying to build it. And I built the best I could for to house the about 7,000 books that we collected. And now one of my sons went back to have a look since we left. He went on the last month and he said he found a good number but it was all piled and. And the shelves broken and it was all quite. Apparently they were looking for something. I don't know what for. The house is looted. Everything has been taken away. He said you wouldn't even find the spoon for your best cup of tea if you can manage to have a cup of tea.
- [07:09]
James Copnell
Does it feel then.
- [07:11]
Aisha Musa
I feel devastated. I feel, you know, this feeling of loss. I do not feel the loss of material things, but the loss of my life. And all my papers, everything, our pictures, everything, Everything. And most of the things that belonged to my father were in that house. My mother gave them to me before she died.
- [07:32]
James Copnell
And that story of loss of your possessions, of your home is one replicated for millions of Sudanese, is it not? Almost everybody's been affected by this war.
- [07:43]
Aisha Musa
Yes, everybody. Everybody. And this is actually. This is the. The condolence that made it survive. And no matter how much you lost, there's someone who has lost more. And maybe you will have the means to. To. To. To build some sort of life after that. But some people do not have means to. They do not have places to go back to. Some. Some houses are totally ruined. Our house is not destroyed and the walls are there, the rooms are there. But everything, kitchen, bathrooms, everything is taken. Even the trees. You know, they cut the trees. You have lemon trees and palm trees and everything. They are not cut from. I don't know why. Why this happened. This makes you think, why. Why did this war take place? Is it really a fight between two people?
- [08:40]
James Copnell
Well, look, I wanted to ask you about that because you were on the Sovereign Council the body that replaced President Omar Bashir as a civilian. You had to deal with those two men, the generals you're talking about. Abdul Fattel Bahan from the Sudanese Armed Forces and Mohammed Hamdan Dagalore, known as Hermeti from the rsf. The Rapid Support Forces. Did you suspect at the time that they might take your country to the devastating war we see now?
- [09:08]
Aisha Musa
Never. I did suspect that something is going to happen, but it never reached this. I did not see this. I don't know even what to call it. And I did not see that in them. I did not see that they could be that blasphemous, that they could damage their country. To this extent. So this is why I'm saying, whether it is a war between two men or two groups, even that they represent, or something deeper than that and more than that. I knew them as colleagues sitting around the table. We laughed with each other. We ate together. We traveled on the same planes. We attended the same meetings. We discussed and we shouted at each other. And they were very respectful to me. They respected me as one of the eldest people in the group and the only, the second. We were two. Two women, the first two women in such a post in Sudan. And I felt high. I felt like I was actually the chairman of that. And. And. And Morhan does say sometimes if Aisha doesn't speak, the. The meeting is not finished. She has to say something. I was never afraid of them as a threat to life, to the. Or to the lives of people.
- [10:28]
James Copnell
What I was wondering then is you talk of, is it just these two generals, the forces they represent, or something broader? By that, do you mean is it something within Sudanese society or are you making a reference to external countries, other countries, foreign countries supporting both sides?
- [10:50]
Aisha Musa
I think that the Sudanese community environment is a source of encouraging this kind of thing to happen. But the real thing is that, as I said in my resignation note that there is something, some strong hand behind the whole thing that's happening. When I said that I did not go as far as other countries, I was just thinking of Al Bashir and the Muslim Brothers, whom were suspected by everybody, that they were behind everything. And this thing, all the rulers of the past who were trying to come back through these two. But then the thing, when it has gone so far and so deep and it has used the equipment and facilities and money and things that I know as a member of the government at one time, that we don't have it in Sudan, that there is some strong hand behind them from other countries. And now, of course, it is obvious that someone is igniting this war by supplying both parties with weapons, that we did not have any means of having them at that time before this war. And things are renewing. The new things are coming and up to date. Things, equipment of war, things that I don't even know their names are coming to the scene, to the scene.
- [12:23]
James Copnell
And that massively complicates the search for a solution for peace, does it not? Because you don't just have to deal with Sudanese armed groups, you have to deal with foreign backers as well.
- [12:35]
Aisha Musa
Exactly. This is why I was one of the people who thought that we should never turn, help, turn away a helping hand. If any country suggests that they want to help or they want to interfere or something, we listen to them and we go to them. And then. But then now it is obvious that it is a war that is meant to break us to pieces and that the only solution will be that we use our own hands and our own authorities, if we have any left and our own abilities and what we have known already to fight back and to stop this war and to govern this country. I think that it is something that has got to be done by the same hands in. If they are the same hand that killed. Actually, these hands have killed someone, used them, our hands. Sudanese people. I mean, the people who attacked me in my house are young Sudanese men whom I would call my son. I would say, this is my son. They broke into my house, and I was sitting right there in front of them. I could have opened the door. If they knock before I could walk, take my stick and walk to the door, they broke into the house. And when I said, why? They said, we thought that maybe there are soldiers here because we have been attacked by them and we are looking for anyone in the military forces. Because before them, another group also came to the house. And they hit their way, broke into the house. I was also sitting. I always, after saying Fajr prayer, I sit outside. I have a small bed and I sit outside next to the doorway to the street. It was a small street. It is a small street outside the house. So they knocked, and before I could get up, they also used the back of their guns. And they opened the door and walked in. They said they just want a drink of water and their shoes need came. They want some shoes. My son came downstairs and I asked him. He was furious. I said, no, no, bring them some shoes if you have. He brought them a pair of shoes. One of them actually sat next to me, and he was speaking to me, and I was trying to convince him, like. Like I'm speaking to you now. Why are you doing this? Why don't you take talk, speak to us and say what you want? Really? Why do you break into other people's houses? And why do you do this and that?
- [15:19]
James Copnell
Is there any way that the civilians, the young protesters, the voices of experience like you, will be able to convince the military men to lay down their weapons to take Sudan back to a more peaceful future?
- [15:34]
Aisha Musa
These young men that I have seen a sample of them three times in my own house and spoke to them are just tools. They are machines. They are used. They are filled up with something. And they are, you
- [15:53]
James Copnell
you're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service with me, James Copnell.
- [16:02]
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- [17:06]
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- [17:39]
James Copnell
I've interviewed Aisha Musa before, including in the Sudanese capital Khatoum, when she was a member of the Sovereign Council. As always, her humanity shone through. She asked after my mother, who'd been unwell, and shared stories of her family, which has been forced into exile in several parts of the world. Aisha herself is in Riyadh. I was struck by how profoundly she has been affected by the war in Sudan, both personally and because of how it has weighed so heavily on her fellow citizens. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Aisha.
- [18:14]
Musa and Aisha, you are living in exile now. I wonder your thoughts on the way people around the world are reacting to this wave of Sudanese people who have been forced from their homes. I know you wanted to talk, for example, about young Sudanese students in the UK and the difficulties they are having in getting visas over the years.
- [18:37]
Aisha Musa
They have these strong ties with the British government. We call it Great Britain all the time. And regardless of what we think of the ties, the old ties with Britain, we respect this country. And we respect the fact that all our elites and people who had first high education went to Britain and they come back as people who really done quite a lot to the country. And all the first generations were educated in Britain, actually up to our level. We all went to Britain for education and we came back and we were very happy with what we have achieved. So you can imagine what kind of shock we all had when we read about the Home Secretary. UK Home Secretary Shaban Mahmoud was very hard on us. It was really hard on us to hear that this announcement about the emergency break on study visas for students from Sudan and other four countries, I think another four countries. And at the time she was afraid, she says, that all these are in fact they will turn into asylum seekers, even if they will turn into asylum seekers. At the time when Sudan is passing through this war, which has been described as the most vicious war and humanitarian status that the Sudan has gone through, not just that the whole world has faced recently, isn't it the wrong time to announce such a thing? This is not what we would expect from Great Britain.
- [20:27]
James Copnell
Ayesha, we started this conversation talking about the devastation of three years of conflict. Do you see a way in which it comes to an end soon? Do you think that peace is possible in the short term?
- [20:42]
Aisha Musa
Actually, a lot of things has got to be done if it is to stop. I mean, people speak about stopping the war, as I said, nobody from outside. I mean, there are these negotiations that the group of four and of five and all that, that never include women, let alone any other groups that you know, or youth, okay? They do not even have the young people who are the source of this revolution that has resulted in this catastrophe. So how are you going to negotiate what to do to someone without asking them what they think? I mean, women have never been invited to such negotiations.
- [21:30]
Sudanese Women's Rights Activist
And the women groups also are totally
- [21:33]
Aisha Musa
neglected and left out of all these invitations to them.
- [21:38]
Sudanese Women's Rights Activist
We have got a whole roadmap of what, what we should do. And it kind of culminates into number one, the war has got to stop somehow. Of course, if it doesn't stop, then we have to have a long term ceasefire and civilians have got to get together in one round table round that includes everything. We have a list of all the people that should be invited, not people in names, but in geographical places and who represent, as I was saying, professionals and ordinary people, the stakeholders, the real stakeholders, the young people, the women, the disabled, everybody in the country.
- [22:26]
Aisha Musa
Why?
- [22:26]
Sudanese Women's Rights Activist
Because we want these people to be the first start of forming something like the People's Council or a parliament. Account of parliament.
- [22:37]
Aisha Musa
A parliament.
- [22:38]
Sudanese Women's Rights Activist
This parliament's work should be. Should have two jobs. Job number one is to eliminate the army, the armed forces from the civil forces. The army should go to where they belong and they should do the jobs that they are created to do. And the civilians should take care of themselves and should start preparing for public elections and representation of all kinds of people that are there. Because now this is what it is all about is that everyone is saying that only those are working. But we are not invited, we are not included. So we want to include everybody in this fight or stopping the war. That if we want this war to stop and this country to be rebuilt, we have to go back. Government and the international community should help all the Sudanese who are now treated so unkindly by some of the friendly and the neighboring governments that they have gone too. People who are in camps outside are finding life, a tormented kind of life. They cannot live there. They are all destined to become sick and die eventually starvation. And no medical help. And no, of course we did not even speak about education. Now education now is the luxury. And so they international community can help in these aspects, bettering the help, humanitarian help and helping Sudanese in their refugee camps and in their places which are less than dignified places to live in, to live dignified life until they come back home. And they can help in the reconstruction of infrastructure in the country. And they can help with educational program, temporary educational program for the 19,000 child
- [25:03]
Aisha Musa
who are out of schools for three
- [25:06]
Sudanese Women's Rights Activist
or now four years. 33 million needed humanitarian aid. And 7.3 million are women of reproductive at a reproductive age who are now just roaming around in these camps and trying to help in temporary kitchens and things like that and with no jobs or anything to do. And 12 million are at the risk of gender based violence. And when we say gender based violence, we mean rape and sexual assaults and all these terrible things that are happening to the women all around the world. 1.1 million are pregnant women. And all of these are exposed to sexual violence, rape, kidnapping, child marriages, severe shortage of hygiene products. And millions are still displaced from their homes.
- [26:09]
James Copnell
Thank you for listening to the interview. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with Google CEO Sundar Pichai and Antonio Guterres, Secretary General of the United nations, plus many others. Until the next time, bye for now.
- [26:40]
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- [27:44]
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She was the sister who went unnoticed. A daffodil might look plain next to a lily, but on its own there is no much to be admired. Now her greatest chapter is yet to come. The most important thing is to be yourself. From the world of Jane Austin's Pride and Prejudice comes a new Britbox original drama, Mary, you Will Flourish, based on the best selling novel the Other Bennett Sister, now streaming only on Britbox. Watch with a free trial@britbox.com.