Allen Ault: Opposing the death penalty

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Interview

Episode Title: Allen Ault: Opposing the Death Penalty
Host: Stephen Sackur (BBC World Service)
Guest: Allen Ault (Former Corrections Commissioner, Georgia, USA)
Date: March 17, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this deeply personal and thought-provoking episode, Stephen Sackur speaks to Allen Ault, who served as the head of corrections in Georgia and supervised state executions during the 1990s. Once a psychologist committed to rehabilitation, Ault ultimately became a vocal opponent of the death penalty after directly witnessing and ordering executions. The conversation traverses his experiences, the psychological toll, ethical dilemmas, and the enduring social and political forces upholding capital punishment in the United States.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Living with the Legacy of Executions

• Nightmares and Lasting Trauma
  • Ault confesses that his experiences are still very present:
    • “I still have nightmares. Not every night, but on occasion… it's a very hard pill to swallow and it stays in your psyche for, I guess, forever.” (02:34–02:52)
  • He stresses the permanence of psychological scars from overseeing executions.

2. From Psychologist to Executioner: The Journey

• Initial Motivation
  • Ault entered corrections with an ethos of helping and rehabilitation, never expecting to participate in executions.
    • “In the 70s, of course, I'd never been in a prison or jail…” (03:34–04:00)
• Systemic Drift
  • Over time, legal changes made executions constitutional again, eventually resulting in Ault having to oversee them.

3. Personal Stories – Humanizing Death Row

• Christopher Berger’s Case
  • Berger, convicted as a juvenile with limited IQ and a history of abuse, spent 17 years on death row.
  • Ault witnessed profound change:
    • “They had educated themselves... they were different human beings actually.” (06:54–07:01)
• Final Moments
  • Berger’s last words:
    • “Please forgive me.” (07:02–07:13)
  • Ault describes the harrowing process of giving the order and witnessing the execution, feeling the gravity of the act:
    • “I knew I had killed another human being.” (08:14–09:23)

4. Moral Reckoning & The Nature of State Execution

• Is It Murder?

  • Ault is unequivocal:
    • “Although it's state sanctioned, it is by every definition, it's premeditated murder, probably the most premeditated of any murders.” (09:38–09:53)
  • Explains that executions are officially listed as homicides.

• Personal Guilt and Rationalization

  • Sought counseling to deal with the guilt:
    • “I finally went and asked for treatment and received some treatment to help me through it.” (10:20–11:06)
  • Recognizes he tried to justify his actions by hoping for a deterrent effect—but doubts its legitimacy:
    • “I already knew… that it has not been a deterrent.” (11:26–11:50)

5. Victims’ Families & The Question of Closure

• Exclusion from Witnessing Executions
  • Made the conscious decision to prevent victims’ families from witnessing executions, believing “closure” would not be found there:
    • “I didn't want an execution to be revenge or seen as revenge… after all, that's truly what retribution is, what it's all about.” (12:55–13:16)

6. Systemic and Racial Issues

• A Case Tainted by Prejudice
  • Describes a case where a Black man was sentenced to death amid clear racial bias among jurors and doubts about his competence:
    • “There was also evidence that this man was mentally impaired… still, despite all of that, had him killed.” (15:08–15:51)
  • Addresses the racial double standards in death penalty application:
    • “Black people who kill whites are about three times more likely to receive the death penalty…” (16:14–16:38)

7. Taking Action—Ault’s Advocacy

• Joining the Fight Against Executions

  • Now works with an organization of former corrections officials and wardens to campaign against the death penalty.
    • “There's a group of five of us... we have an organization that we work trying to stop executions.” (17:44–18:35)
  • Relays a personal success story: saving a death row inmate’s life at the last minute.

• Motivation Rooted in Guilt

  • “All the things that I do now is try to alleviate sense of guilt.” (20:05–20:12)

8. The Politics of the Death Penalty

• Political Expediency

  • Politicians use the death penalty to project toughness—a lesson Ault outlines candidly:
    • “The name of the game is reelection.” (21:04)
  • Calls out the political manipulation of fear and prejudice.

• Role of Public Opinion

  • Affirms that while US voters largely support the death penalty, leaders have a duty to also inform citizens and confront the truth about its failures.

• Example of Legislative Change

  • Uses Connecticut’s abolition of the death penalty after decades of review as proof that informed debate can change policy. (22:03–22:41)

9. Lifelong Sentence of Conscience

• Enduring Psychological Sentencing
  • Ault wrote:
    • “No one has the right to ask a public servant to take on a lifelong sentence of nagging doubt, shame and guilt.” (22:42–22:59)
  • Sackur asks if this is now his burden:
    • “Absolutely. Every time I think it's behind me, then something happens and it all comes back with a rush…” (23:04–23:58)

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Notable Quotes

• On Carrying the Weight:

  • “I have spent a lifetime since then regretting every moment and every killing. Five in total.” (14:30–14:46)

• On the System:

  • “Executions… are listed as a homicide. So yes, I feel like I was very much involved in premeditating a man's killing.” (09:49–10:15)

• On Political Realities:

  • “In the field of corrections, politicians play to the base instincts of the electorate. There is an awful lot of grandstanding.” (20:25–20:47)

• On Seeking Closure:

  • “I didn't want an execution to be revenge or seen as revenge. But after all, that's truly what retribution is, what it's all about.” (12:55–13:16)

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Important Timestamps

• Allen Ault on Nightmares and Trauma: 02:34–02:52
• Discussion of Berger Case: 05:05–07:27
• Berger's Last Words & Execution: 07:02–09:23
• Ault Calls Execution ‘Murder’: 09:38–10:15
• Rationalizing the Death Penalty, Deterrence Myth: 11:06–11:50
• Victims’ Families and Closure: 12:55–13:16
• Racial Bias in Death Penalty Cases: 16:14–16:47
• Ault’s Work with Death Penalty Opposition: 17:44–18:35
• Connecticut Legislative Change Example: 22:03–22:41
• On Psychological Burden: 22:59–23:58

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Memorable Moments

• The chilling recounting of Berger’s execution—right down to the moment the switch was flipped and the room fell silent—offers a firsthand window into the horror and finality of state killing.
• Ault’s admission of personal guilt and search for atonement through advocacy work is profoundly affecting.

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Tone and Style

The conversation is unflinchingly frank, somber, and self-reflective. While Sackur probes sharply, Ault does not deflect, sharing his shame, doubts, and trauma with palpable honesty. The episode maintains a grave, empathetic tone throughout, always centered on the human consequences of policy decisions.

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This summary captures the depth and breadth of Allen Ault’s personal reckoning with the death penalty, the systemic failures he witnessed, and his ongoing commitment to advocacy, making the episode both a confessional and a rallying cry for reform.

Transcript

[Stephen Sackur]

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[BBC Announcer]

Welcome to Hard Talk on the BBC World Service with me, Stephen Sacka. Today's program is from our archives and it examines the idea of freedom, how it's achieved and how it is taken away. Speaking to me in 2014 on a visit to London, my guest had a special insight into the ultimate denial of freedom that is state sanctioned execution. Alan Alt was, during the 1990s, the head of corrections in the American state of Georgia. He was responsible for running the machinery of death. Mr. Ault didn't just order others to carry out executions, he felt it was his duty to be present and as those executions were carried out. But after watching a handful of the state's most serious criminals being strapped into the electric chair, he decided he could stomach it no more. He left his post and became a campaigner against the use of capital punishment in the United States. What prompted that momentous change of heart? And is the death penalty itself doomed to extinction?

[Stephen Sackur]

It's back in the 1990s that you were the commissioner of corrections in the US state of Georgia and you were responsible for running the machinery of capital punishment. Is that experience still with you today?

[Alan Ault]

It is still here.

I still have nightmares. Not every night, but on occasion I.

Still have nightmares about it. Still. It's a very hard pill to swallow and it stays in your psyche for, I guess, forever.

It's the most premeditated murder possible, but the manual is about that thick.

And the preparation that you go through.

[Stephen Sackur]

To execute someone, well, I can tell from your words already that this is seared into your soul, this whole experience. So let us start at the beginning and figure out how on earth you got yourself involved in this element of the corrections business. Because as I understand it, you were a trained psychologist and you entered the world of corrections, the prison system, believing that you were there to help and to rehabilitate.

[Alan Ault]

Yes.

[Stephen Sackur]

So how on earth did you end up running death row and an execution chamber?

[Alan Ault]

In the 70s, of course, I'd never been in a prison or jail, but in Georgia, they had a brand new maximum security prison which was called the Georgia Diagnostic and Classification Center. The only problem was that they didn't have a program. So they hired me to develop a diagnostic and classification system as a psychologist, and they made me superintendent and warden of this institution.

[Stephen Sackur]

And that was ultimately the institution and the facility that became the chamber of death.

[Alan Ault]

Yes. Many years later.

[Stephen Sackur]

So listen, how did you get sucked into a system to the point where, having been a psychologist, having entered the system as somebody committed to rehabilitation, you ended up as the chief who was signing off on and running a system of death?

[Alan Ault]

In the early 70s, when I started in corrections, the death penalty was unconstitutional. And then it was later, in 74, that Georgia wrote a new law that was determined to be constitutional by the U.S. supreme Court. But the actual executions didn't take place till many years later because of appeals. And the first two that I executed had been on death row 17 years. In fact, they were 17 when they came in and they were 34 when they were executed. Actually, they were different individuals.

[Stephen Sackur]

Let's talk about that case because I think it's important to get very specific here. The 17 year old that you mentioned, I believe he was called Christopher Berger.

[Alan Ault]

Right.

[Stephen Sackur]

He was of limited IQ. I think he scored something like 80 or so on the test, suggesting he was close to being mentally impaired. He also had been abused as a child. He ended up being involved in the kidnap, rape and murder of a young man. As you say, he was on death row for 17 years. You got to know him?

[Alan Ault]

Yes, I visited when I was commissioner, I visited death row on several occasions.

And got to know them. And before this was the first warrant that I had to execute someone.

I went down to Jackson, which is about 40 miles from Atlanta, where the.

The central headquarters are. So I talked to him and other people on death row. So it wasn't just a matter of executing somebody that you didn't know or you've said.

[Stephen Sackur]

I think that you saw the change in him.

[Alan Ault]

Yes.

[Stephen Sackur]

From a very disturbed young man to a man who by the time he was approaching his end, you describe as being thoughtful and actually contrite.

[Alan Ault]

Yes, very, very contrite. And, you know, to put it in.

Psychological terms, when he committed the act, he didn't even have fully developed frontal lobes, which allowed you to make decent decisions.

[Stephen Sackur]

He was a juvenile.

[Alan Ault]

Yes, he was. And the other individual involved in the.

Crime was also a juvenile. So they were now adults. They had been on death row for 17 years, and.

They had educated themselves.

While on death row, and they had received a lot of counseling and other.

Services while they were on death row. So they were different human beings.

Actually.

[Stephen Sackur]

Christopher Berger's last words to you just before you gave the order for the switch to be pressed were, please forgive me.

[Alan Ault]

Yes.

I found out as I executed others, some of them even went on to filibuster. You had to cut them off.

I probably would have done that, too. But his was very simple. Please forgive me.

[Stephen Sackur]

How did you feel at that moment it was your responsibility to give the order?

[Alan Ault]

Yes. I was standing behind in another room.

With a glass, looking at the back of the electric chair. I was there with the attorney general for the state of Georgia, and we.

Had phones cook hooked up to the US Supreme Court, the governor's office, the Georgia Pardons and Parole Office. And so then when he checked with each of those entities which might grant.

A stay or parole or a commute to sentence.

But when he checked with each of.

Those entities and there was no stay, he indicated that to me.

And there was an individual standing behind me who had been my electrician when.

I was the warden of this institution. I knew him very well. And so when the attorney general indicated there was no stay, then I asked the individual for his last if he'd like to give his last words, which he said, please forgive me. And then I turned to Brad and said, brad, it's now time. Brad flipped a switch, and we could see the jolt of electricity running through this individual's body. Snapped his head back. And then there was just total silence. And I knew I had killed another human being.

[Stephen Sackur]

At the very beginning of this interview, you used the word murder.

[Alan Ault]

Yes.

[Stephen Sackur]

Do you believe in your heart that you murdered or were involved complicit in the murder of Christopher Berger?

[Alan Ault]

Although it's state sanctioned, it is by every definition, it's premeditated murder, probably the.

Most premeditated of any murders.

In fact, in most states, executions on the coroner's report listed as a homicide. So, yes, I feel like I was very much involved in premeditating a man's killing. And Giving the order for him to be murdered.

[Stephen Sackur]

How much damage has that done to you?

[Alan Ault]

Well, we provided psychiatric psychological help for everybody involved, the officers involved and the warden that was involved. But then I realized that the attorney General and I were not receiving any treatment. And it just. It got harder and harder for me. The attorney general, he handled it by running for governor and talking about being tough on crime, but I don't think he handled it very well. I finally went and asked for treatment and received some treatment to help me through it.

[Stephen Sackur]

Help you through what? I mean, did you feel a sense of guilt?

[Alan Ault]

A large sense of guilt. At first, I tried to rationalize this whole process that, well, if I could save one human being by this process, then that would be worth it.

[Stephen Sackur]

You mean the idea of the deterrent effect?

[Alan Ault]

Deterrent effect. But I already knew. I mean, I had already read the research on deterrent effect, and I talked to so many inmates even before we had the death penalty, and rarely do any of the inmates ever think through to the consequences of their actions. So to say that it detours.

And, you know, there have been some.

Pieces of research that indicated it was a deterrent, but I don't think any reputable research would say that it has been a deterrent. Even the family of the victim, they.

Were in the institution.

I didn't allow them to go into the room where the witnesses were at an execution.

[Stephen Sackur]

Why didn't you allow them? Because I know. I mean, I used to work in the United States. I've covered executions myself. And I know that in many states and many situations, the family of the victims, those who were murdered, and it's always, almost always a murder, they are invited if they want to witness the death, the execution.

[Alan Ault]

We invited him to the institution, but not to witness the execution.

[Stephen Sackur]

But there are families who want to be there. They say it adds to their sense of justice being done, their sense of this word that gets used so often, closure.

[Alan Ault]

Well, that is, I've talked to many, and they did not receive the closure that they thought they would. And I didn't want an execution to be revenge or seen as revenge. But after all, that's truly what retribution is, what it's all about.

[Stephen Sackur]

And was it for you to decide?

[Alan Ault]

It was for me to decide I was responsible. So I decided that the victims would not attend the execution. And we had other witnesses in a witness pool, but not the victim's family.

[Stephen Sackur]

Here is what I find most, perhaps puzzling about the real honesty with which you describe your feelings in this first execution. You say you didn't actually, even then, really believe in the deterrent effect. And you clearly had grave doubts about what you were doing, but you went on.

[Alan Ault]

Yes, I did.

[Stephen Sackur]

To supervise the killing of more prisoners.

[Alan Ault]

Four after that.

[Stephen Sackur]

How could you do that? How could you live with your conscience?

[Alan Ault]

I didn't do it. Well, I didn't. It was a small part of that job. I had 15,000 employees, a billion dollar budget.

[Stephen Sackur]

You were a top official in the prison system in the United States. But with all due respect, it was not a small part of your job because it was the in which you, in a certain sense, were playing God. You were playing with people's lives. And that is no small matter.

[Alan Ault]

It certainly is not. And I have spent a lifetime since then regretting every moment and every killing. Five in total.

[Stephen Sackur]

It is perhaps too easy for me to sit here with you and go through cases and ask you difficult questions. But there is one other case that I really must ask you about. That is the black man who was convicted of murdering three women. Now, he was sentenced to die.

[Alan Ault]

Yes.

[Stephen Sackur]

It became plain in that period between conviction and death that first of all, there had been a significant racial element within the jury. One juror described an atmosphere of intimidation where the N word was repeatedly used for that minority of jurors who were black, who were ultimately to decide his fate. There was also evidence that this man was mentally impaired to the point where, frankly, many experts didn't believe he was competent to make a plea. You still, despite all of that, had him killed.

[Alan Ault]

Yes.

I was. Without trying to excuse myself at all. I was the vehicle for the execution, and I have no defense for that.

[Stephen Sackur]

Why didn't you walk away?

[Alan Ault]

I did, but not then.

[Stephen Sackur]

That was too late.

[Alan Ault]

Yes.

[Stephen Sackur]

For him, it was too late.

[Alan Ault]

It was too late.

Yes.

When you're doing the executions, you don't get all the history of what went on in the jury and all, you know, looking back over it, all that information came out, but you certainly didn't have that type of information. But when you look at the research, black people who kill whites are about three times more likely to receive the death penalty than the other way around. Certainly, it's a racial thing. I've found that in talking to many, many citizens, they usually have a stereotype in the back of their mind that they're frightened of in the south that might be a large black rapist or, you know. But there's always a racial stereotype involved, usually. And so when you talk about execution, they're killing that stereotype, not the human being that actually Is there. I have many compatriots who were directors who have gone through this execution. I don't know any of them that I haven't shed a lot of tears over it.

[Stephen Sackur]

You talk about shedding tears. Is that as far as it goes for you or have you taken from your experience a determination to do something about it?

[Alan Ault]

There's a group of five of us, three who were former directors, the other two former wardens. One of them was the director in California, one of the director in Ohio. But we have an organization that we work trying to stop executions. And I appeared before several legislative groups trying to abolish the death penalty in several states. So it's been an ongoing type of thing. We've worked on individual cases, most of them not too successful. But I did have success last year with one case of getting it stayed and then commuted the next day.

And those are very personal experiences.

This individual was a black man who was 6 foot 9. He had a good record until he was around 19. And somebody said, I wonder what Daniel would do if he took this blue pill. And they gave him the blue pill and he just went absolutely berserk for about four hours. Killed his, stabbed and killed his best friend and stabbed one other individual who survived. The prosecutor went all out to try him and he went to death row.

And he was there 19 years. As big as he was, he could.

Have been the bully of death row, but he spent the whole 19 years trying to help other people. So I was asked to try to intervene in this case and I did talk with the parole board. And we took, we gathered affidavits from many of the staff who told how good he was and how great he was on death row. And at the very last moment, about two hours before he's being executed, they stayed the execution.

[Stephen Sackur]

In that sense, did that particular campaign for that particular individual, did that seem like some sort of, I don't know, giving back some sort of payback for what you had done yourself in the past?

[Alan Ault]

I think all the things that I do now is try to alleviate sense of guilt.

I've made two movies, one for Discovery.

Channel, which was produced and directed by a British firm because they wanted to do a non political film. Well, I'm sorry, but the death penalty is totally political.

[Stephen Sackur]

I want to just talk briefly about politics. You said this of politicians that you've had experience of as a director of corrections in the United States. In the field of corrections, you say politicians play to the base instincts of the electorate. There is an awful lot of grandstanding yes. You sound very cynical about politicians on this issue.

[Alan Ault]

One North Georgia chicken farmer told me about politics.

He said, allen, I'll do whatever you ask me to do. You want some more money in your budget or you want to change the law? Unless it becomes between me and one of my constituents. And he said the name of the game is reelection.

And certainly that's our US Congress and that's in most legislature.

And so many of them will tell.

Me we've got to just be tough on crime to our constituents.

[BBC Announcer]

But that in a way is the point.

[Stephen Sackur]

You know, in this extraordinary change of heart you've had and journey that you've made, you're missing out one element, are you not? That is the United States is very proud of its democracy. And every poll in the US to this day, even though the numbers have changed somewhat, shows that a majority, a clear majority of Americans believe in the death penalty as the ultimate deterrent. And as long as that is true, don't politicians have a duty to reflect that?

[Alan Ault]

Well, I don't know. They also have a duty to inform.

Their voters, their constituents.

Example, Connecticut, they had a research that was done over four decades by Donahue.

From Stanford University law professor and they.

Had every capital case judged by independent judges because people thought the most egregious cases were in death row. Turned out that somewhere around 47 or 49 of the most egregious cases where they'd caused pain or rape or whatever, only one of those cases were actually on death row. When that and some other things, the expense of it is tremendous. The Connecticut legislature last year did away.

With the death penalty to end.

[Stephen Sackur]

Let's bring it back to you. You wrote not so long ago some very powerful words. You said, no one has the right to ask a public servant to take on a lifelong sentence of nagging doubt, shame and guilt.

[Alan Ault]

Yes.

[Stephen Sackur]

Is that what you have been sentenced to?

[Alan Ault]

Absolutely. Every time I think it's behind me, then something happens and it all comes back with a rush. I was out at the Lexington airport the morning I had a 6:05 flight and the 6:00 clock flight left. By all rights, I'd always been on Delta Air Lines. This morning I was going someplace else.

And was on another airline and I.

Checked in with all these people and the plane crashed and killed everyone and I had to go again. All those feelings came back, all those faces came back, all those nightmares came back and just have to keep re dealing with it. Re dealing with it.

[Stephen Sackur]

Well, Alan Ald, I thank you for sharing your experience with us. Thanks for being on Hard Talk.

[Alan Ault]

Thank you.

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