Podcast Summary: The Interview – Amina Mohammed, UN Deputy Secretary-General: Peace as a Word Losing Its Value

Podcast: The Interview, BBC World Service
Episode Date: September 23, 2025
Host: Waihiga Mwaura
Guest: Amina Mohammed, Deputy Secretary-General, United Nations

Overview

In this episode, Waihiga Mwaura interviews Amina Mohammed, the Deputy Secretary-General of the United Nations, during the 80th UN General Assembly in New York. The conversation centers on the evolving challenges facing the UN, including rising global conflict, frustrations with the Security Council, the apparent devaluation of “peace” in international discourse, and the continual struggle to deliver on the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs). Mohammed speaks candidly about the need for institutional reform, greater accountability, and the enduring hope for meaningful change, especially for countries afflicted by conflict.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State of the World and the UN (04:22–07:25)

• UN’s Mission and Current Challenges

  • Mohammed emphasizes the UN’s origins from the ashes of war and its mission to keep peace (“It is about we the people, not we the governments.” – 05:25).
  • She stresses the importance of dialogue, convening, and recommitting to peace—not allowing it to become a sidelined issue.

• Hope and Consensus

  • Despite growing geopolitical tensions, she notes a recent trend towards consensus among member states: “Consensus is not unanimity...we have to move with the rest of the world.” (06:35)

2. Peace, Conflict, and the Price of War (07:25–10:32)

• The Cost of Conflict

  • Mohammed expresses frustration with the ongoing wars that prevent investment in development.
  • On Sudan, DRC, Myanmar, Ukraine, and the Sahel: “Today we are spending trillions on war and peanuts on peace.” (08:44)

• Responsibility and Accountability

  • The need for all parties—including external funders fueling conflicts—to be held accountable: “You cannot, with one hand, pay for the weapons of war, and at the same time say you’re doing something on the humanitarian side...” (09:33)
  • Mohammed highlights that often those funding wars are outside the conflict zones and must also be called out.

3. Sexual Violence and UN’s Limitations (08:51–10:32)

• In response to data about increased sexual violence, Mohammed underscores the UN’s toolbox—and its limits. True success depends on getting all parties, including external actors, to the negotiating table: “You need all parties around the table...and we have to call that out.” (09:08)

4. Effectiveness and Frustrations with the Security Council (10:32–13:17)

• Security Council Paralysis

  • The veto power is often paralyzing, leading to inaction: “The Security Council often is paralysed in its decision making...now there’s a light on it that creates a lot of pressure in countries.” (04:22, repeated at 12:06)

• Growing Transparency

  • The move to discuss vetoes in the General Assembly brings greater transparency: “You can’t hide behind the two letters of United Nations...you have to stand up and be counted.” (12:42)

5. Reforming UN Structures, Especially the Security Council (14:37–17:46)

• Security Council Reform

  • Reform is long overdue; Africa’s representation is central: “We cannot be treated as a country. And then a country that’s not even represented there, that’s an African speaking as a DSG.” (15:32)
  • On the question of seats: “Two, three seats—I mean, it’s better than zero.” (15:28)

• Role of Regional Bodies

  • Mohammed advocates for empowering regional organizations like the African Union to drive peace in their regions: “Peace in Africa has to come from Africans first.” (17:43)

6. Assessment of Past Interventions and the Way Forward (17:46–18:59)

• External Intervention
  • On President Trump’s intervention in the DRC: “He put his best effort forward. We haven’t yet got peace. Let’s hope we can.” (17:55)
• Negotiation Tactics
  • Encourages African leaders not to give up on demands for permanent Security Council seats, but to negotiate more effectively: “Put the volume up, negotiate better. Find the different partners...convince them.” (18:26)

7. Reasons for Optimism—Achievements and Progress (19:06–20:38)

• Despite dire headlines, Mohammed stresses the huge positive impact of the UN: “It’s not the first time [the world’s] been burning...But what this place has been able to do is look at the reality...and try to close that gap.” (19:12)
• Climate Action and Development
  • There are more investments in clean energy than ever.
  • Progress on climate and development agendas continues, albeit slowly.

8. Reform Ambitions — What Would She Change? (20:38–21:23)

• First Priority: Accountability
  • “Recalibrate the Security Council to give us much more accountability for peace. This is really important.” (20:46)
  • Emphasizes mechanisms for holding the Security Council to its founding purpose of upholding peace.

9. Funding, Partnerships, and Humanitarian Challenges (21:23–25:28)

• Global Health and Partnerships

  • Remarks on the US new health strategy: “We need more support for frontline workers...But NGOs are very much a part of this. These are partners on the ground who go the last mile.” (21:44)

• Efficiency, Humanity, and Corruption

  • Efficiency is vital, but so is genuine partnership. Technology may provide improvement, but humanitarian responses remain necessary.

• On shifting UN agency presence to Africa: “No, it is not [because of donor cuts]. We’ve been in Kenya...big footprint in Uganda, big footprint in my country, Nigeria.” (24:31)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Today we are spending trillions on war and peanuts on peace.”
  — Amina Mohammed (08:44)

• “Peace seems to be a word, a five-letter word that is losing its value. And we have to ask ourselves why.”
  — Amina Mohammed (10:18)

• “You cannot, with one hand, pay for the weapons of war, and at the same time say you’re doing something on the humanitarian side...That’s just not—should not.”
  — Amina Mohammed (09:33)

• “Consensus is not unanimity...we have to move with the rest of the world.”
  — Amina Mohammed (06:35)

• “You can’t hide behind the two letters of United Nations...You have to stand up and be counted.”
  — Amina Mohammed (12:42)

• “Peace in Africa has to come from Africans first.”
  — Amina Mohammed (17:43)

• “We have the largest cohort (of young people in Africa)...the greatest opportunities because quite frankly, technology coming along today can be a good thing for us.”
  — Amina Mohammed (11:30)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:22] – Amina Mohammed on war, the Security Council, and veto transparency
• [05:25] – Perspective on leaders’ duty to recommit to peace
• [07:42] – Discussion on Sudan and DRC, hope for resolutions
• [08:44] – "Trillions on war, peanuts on peace"
• [10:18] – Peace “losing its value”
• [12:06] – Frustration with Security Council and veto system
• [14:45] – Security Council reform, Africa’s representation
• [17:43] – African Union’s role in African peace
• [19:12] – Hope and positive change, even amid crisis
• [21:44] – US global health funding and role of NGOs
• [24:31] – Moving UN agencies to Africa: strategic, not reactive

Tone & Language

Amina Mohammed speaks with passion and forthrightness, oscillating between frustration and hope. Her language is accessible and direct, often using vivid metaphors ("Trillions on war and peanuts on peace") and stressing the urgency of leadership, dialogue, and action.

Conclusion

This conversation with Amina Mohammed provides a clear-eyed assessment of the UN’s current limitations and opportunities. Despite deep frustrations over global conflict, Security Council impasses, and slow reform, Mohammed remains optimistic about the possibility of progress—through greater accountability, stronger partnerships, investment in development, and the empowerment of young and marginalized voices. The episode is essential listening for understanding the current crossroads facing both the UN and the broader international system.