Anika Wells, Communications Minister: Australia’s social media ban

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Interview – Australia’s Social Media Ban with Annika Wells

Podcast: The Interview
Host: BBC World Service
Guest: Annika Wells, Australian Communications Minister
Date: December 3, 2025
Location: Annika Wells' electorate office, Brisbane
Topic: Australia’s social media ban for under-16s

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Overview

In this episode, Katie Watson (BBC Australia Correspondent) interviews Annika Wells, the Australian Communications Minister, about the nation’s world-first digital law banning children under 16 from accessing major social media platforms including TikTok, Instagram, Snapchat, and YouTube. The conversation delves deeply into the motivations behind the law, responses from young people, parents, and tech companies, and anticipated challenges in implementation and enforcement. Wells, herself a mother of three, discusses personal experiences and addresses public concerns, outlining both the intentions of the legislation and the landscape of opposition.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Intent and Scope of the Ban

• Law Details: From December 10, children under 16 in Australia will not be able to sign up for or access specific social media platforms, with companies facing fines up to AUD 50 million (~USD 32 million) for failures to comply ([01:18]).
• Minister’s Framing: “I've been honest from the outside, this isn't a cure, it's a treatment plan. And treatment plans will always evolve as we adapt and address harm and see what works and what doesn't.” (Annika Wells, [02:53])

2. Protecting Children’s Mental Health

• Rationale: Wells highlights compelling evidence that 7 out of 10 Australian kids face harms online, especially due to algorithm-driven content targeting ([04:20]).
• She emphasizes how online “doom scrolling” and algorithm exposure are uniquely harmful compared to other typical teenage responsibilities, such as bank accounts or jobs.

3. Parental Experience and Support

• Personal Perspective: Wells discusses managing her own children’s online experiences, acknowledging challenges even for regulators at home ([05:32]).
  • “You can't out-parent an algorithm and this is giving parents another weapon in their arsenal for... the happiness and mental well-being of their children.” (Annika Wells, [06:42])
• Community Response: She reports overwhelming relief and gratitude from parents who feel helpless in the face of algorithm-driven harms.

4. Concerns About Minority and Vulnerable Communities

• Wells addresses worries about social isolation for neurodiverse youth, LGBTQI groups, or children in remote areas, noting exemptions for health and educational apps ([07:09]).
  • “We did try to think through those spaces that people with particular needs use... We're not trying to ban the Internet...” (Annika Wells, [07:09])

5. Tech Companies' Response & Global Context

• Industry Pushback: Tech companies agree with safety aims but dispute the outright ban, favoring delays or more nuanced approaches ([07:31]).
  • “Manifestly, they have had 15, 20 years in this space to do that of their own volition now. And the harms... demonstrate it's not enough.” (Annika Wells, [07:44])
• Fines as Deterrents: The Minister explains the fines are significant within the context of Australian law, though she concedes tech giants could “cop the fine and continue on,” but would be operating illegally ([08:41]).
• Comparisons to Other Laws: The ban is likened to compulsory seatbelt and underage drinking laws—effectiveness is measured by cultural change, not perfect compliance ([09:34]).

6. Risks of Circumvention & Unintended Consequences

• Potential for Darker Platforms: There’s concern that excluding platforms like Roblox and Discord might push children to less policed areas of the web ([18:15], [21:52]).
  • Wells assures ongoing monitoring for “migratory patterns” and an agile approach for adaptation.
  • “These are known predators who have made decisions that have harmed people and have chosen not to act. We can police them... as we move forward.” (Annika Wells, [22:21])
• Whack-a-mole Problem: Legislation risks falling behind tech innovation. Laws are designed to target harmful “features and functions,” enabling adaptive regulation ([20:21]).

7. Education and Holistic Approach

• Wells acknowledges that banning is not a standalone solution:
  • “Digital literacy has been part of a holistic approach to trying to improve our response to online safety. There is no one silver bullet for this.” ([23:57])

8. International and Legal Challenges

• Legal Resistance: Australia's law faces High Court challenges; overseas attempts (e.g., in US states) have sometimes failed ([11:00]).
  • Wells is undeterred: “We stand firm on the side of parents and not on platforms. These people who seek to stymie us have ulterior motives and we will fight it in the courts.” ([11:00])
• Global Interest: Multiple foreign governments are watching or seeking advice as they consider similar legislation ([17:01]).
  • “I genuinely feel in 10 years time we're all going to look back and ask why did that take so long? Not why did they do that?” (Annika Wells, [17:37])
• US Political Pressure: Questions are raised about potential retaliation from figures like Donald Trump. Wells is resolute, emphasizing her duty to Australian citizens ([15:49]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Parental Helplessness:
  “You can't out-parent an algorithm and this is giving parents another weapon in their arsenal for, for their lives and for the happiness and mental well being of their children.” — Annika Wells ([06:42])

• On Tech Company Responsibility:
  “Whilst they have every right as private companies... we feel that they have more of a social responsibility as social media platforms than they have signed up for themselves. So we have made it the law.” — Annika Wells ([07:44])

• On Facing Tech Giants:
  “Anyone who's got multiple small children knows how to negotiate against powers that seem beyond your control. I am not intimidated by Big Tech because I understand the moral imperative of what we're doing.” — Annika Wells ([11:57])

• On the Human Impact:
  “I remember walking into a room... and a guy named Whipper said, Annika, this is Rob. Rob was standing there in a suit. He was holding a pink urn, and he said, and this is Liv. And I just felt the oxygen suck out of my body as the very real impact of what is happening stood so politely and respectfully in front of me, asking me to act.” — Annika Wells ([12:17])

• On Adaptation and Agility:
  “We’ll see what kind of cultural change it creates. We’ll keep working on the response to the Online Safety act, we’ll implement a digital duty of care for Australians next year and keep working.” — Annika Wells ([21:12])

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Important Timestamps

• [01:18] – Introduction to the legislation and its scope
• [02:53] – Wells outlines the evolving “treatment plan” philosophy
• [04:20] – Addressing teens’ concerns and mental health research
• [06:42] – Parental challenges and the role of legislation
• [07:09] – Consideration for marginalized and remote communities
• [07:31] – Tech company responses to the ban
• [09:34] – The aim for cultural change and analogy to other public health laws
• [11:00] – Legal and international challenges, High Court mention
• [11:57] – Wells’ personal convictions and stories from bereaved parents
• [15:49] – Political implications and US international pressure
• [17:01] – Global impact and consultations with other nations
• [18:15] – Why gaming/chat platforms are (for now) excluded
• [20:21] – Adaptive regulation and “whack-a-mole” issue
• [21:52] – Risks of “migration” to other platforms
• [23:57] – Role of digital literacy and education
• [24:40] – Dynamics of negotiating with international tech companies

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Summary

This in-depth conversation frames Australia’s under-16 social media ban as a bold, necessary step—part public health intervention, part parental support tool, and part cultural shift. Annika Wells articulates the government’s rationale, personalizes the stakes, and acknowledges the complexity of keeping pace with technology, while candidly addressing criticisms and practical challenges. The Minister emphasizes flexibility, monitoring, and education as integral to the law’s impact, positioning Australia as an international leader on digital child safety.

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Transcript

[Ray Winstone]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk. Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

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[Katie Watson]

Hello, I'm Katie Watson, the BBC's Australia correspondent, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

Today we are spending trillions on war and peanuts on peace.

[Annika Wells]

Wind power in the United States has been subsidized for 333 years. Isn't that enough? Solar for 25 years, that's enough. I don't have army, I don't have missile rockets. I have my body, I have my voice.

[Ray Winstone]

I love singing. And so my goal was always to do better and better at it.

[Annika Wells]

I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me.

[Katie Watson]

For this interview, I met Annika Wells, the Australian communications minister, at her electorate office in Brisbane. You're going to hear about a new digital law that she's spearheading to protect children's health and well being. From December 10, Australian children under 16 will no longer be able to access platforms including TikTok, Instagram and Snapchat, platforms that encourage them to spend more time online with their algorithms. Doom scrolling. That's what the government's trying to avoid. It's a world first. And social media companies will face fines of up to 50 million Australian dollars. That's about US$32 million if they fail to take steps to ensure that under 16s in Australia cannot set up accounts. The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, wants his government to encourage better mental health in young people, and the ban has the backing of many Australian adults. But the technology companies most affected are based outside the country and could challenge the ban. One concern is that kids could be driven to more dangerous online content. Plenty of others want the ban lifted because they think it will leave them more isolated or less informed and, of course, less connected. Annika Wells, a mother herself, is up for the fight and concedes that the law is still a work in progress. You'll hear her explain why some gaming platforms and chat forums like Roblox and Discord have been excluded and how the Ban will be policed. No easy task.

[Annika Wells]

I've been honest from the outside, this isn't a cure, it's a treatment plan. And treatment plans will always evolve as we can. We adapt and address harm and see what works and what doesn't. So we aren't banning the Internet here. And whilst lots of people would like us to do more drastic measures, we've started with a social media login. And for every person that says to me, why haven't you included these big elements? Someone else is saying to me, it is impossible for you to do what you've even set out to do now. So we'll watch what happens, we'll see what kind of cultural change it creates. We'll keep working.

[Katie Watson]

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Annika Wells.

[Annika Wells]

In these kinds of jobs, you face different kinds of pressure every single day. I was the aged care minister before I got this role. We landed these big systemic, sustainable funding reforms for aged care that was sort of the biggest in about 30 years that took nine months to do. Every single day that I didn't land those, I had people waiting for a bed. So whilst this is enormous and this is world leading, I think the nature of the pressure upon me is much the same.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

We've been speaking to lots of young people in the last few weeks and some are okay with this ban, others are not. Less okay, less patronising, they call it. They can have a job, you know, they can have a bank account, but they can't get on the platform of their choice. What do you say to them?

[Annika Wells]

Having a job or a bank account aren't necessarily so demonstrably harmful as being online on social media and subject to predatory algorithms. The research that places like the Safety Commission, which is Australia's independent regulator for safety online, the evidence is now that 7 out of 10 Australian kids are suffering harm online, and that's as a result of activity on these kinds of platforms, the predatory algorithms that they see there. So while I appreciate for people between 13 and perhaps even younger, if those platforms aren't policing their own policies, if they're having something taken away on the 10th of December, and that is hard, I appreciate that. We think that overall, culturally, this will really change the landscape. And for Generation Alpha, who are coming along, who are babies, toddlers, little kids looking up to their siblings, this will really make for cultural change. By the time they have their own device and ability to have a login.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

And you've got small children in that generation. What are you talking about? How are you talking to them, obviously you've got an eight year old so potentially interested in going online.

[Annika Wells]

Well, I think she's asked for a smartphone for Christmas. I think that every household has their own challenges and even if you are a household that doesn't want screen time, strict about not having devices for children. I know for us the change was when she reached the year at school where you had to have an iPad. So overnight we had to have rules and policies in our house about what that looked like for her, even if previously she'd been device free. And I guess personally for me, I am not there every night to police her screen time or to check her activity on Roblox or what have you, because I'm traveling Australia doing this job which my husband is very supportive of, but it falls to him to do that policing. So in a funny way, me being the lawmaker for this social media ban is my own contribution to helping those kinds of fights. Not just in our house, but in houses all down our street, everywhere. I've been surprised by the number of parents who have come up to me, whether it's at the shops, at a community event, as a local member, to say, I just want to say thank you. I felt so helpless in this fight. It has felt never ending. You can't out parent an algorithm and this is giving parents another weapon in their arsenal for, for their lives and for the happiness and mental well being of their children.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

There are neurodiverse communities, LGBTQI communities, people who live perhaps more remotely. The worry is that this ban could impact minority groups. There are positives about social media, that connection, that community. Why a blanket ban? Why not something more nuanced?

[Annika Wells]

There are exceptions for health apps, for education apps. For example, Kids Helpline has an app and exemption. So we did try to think through those spaces that people with particular needs use. And like you say, Internet has utility. We're all on these apps ourselves for our own leisure. We're not trying to ban the Internet, but there are places for them to.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

Go now to tech companies. So tech companies have said they agree with you on making social media platforms safer, but they don't agree with this ban or delay as it's known. Why was it anything other than a band?

[Annika Wells]

Just not an option, I would contend whilst many of these platforms have safety features, have put their shoulders to the wheel improving particular elements of their platforms online, manifestly, they have had 15, 20 years in this space to do that of their own volition now. And the harms that are coming through by independent research demonstrate it's not enough. It's not enough. And whilst they have every right as private companies to transact business on our shores, every right to make their millions and billions off selling the data of their customers, we choose to do this. We feel that they have more of a social responsibility as social media platforms than they have signed up for themselves. So we have made it the law.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

And you talk about making millions and billions of dollars. The maximum fine is what, 49.5, $49.5 million, which is about US$32 million. The likes of Meta will earn that in a matter of hours. Is it enough of a deterrent?

[Annika Wells]

It is commensurate to the other systemic breaches in spaces like privacy, FOI and those sort of bundles of laws in Australian law systems here. So that's the reason for it. Yes. Other people have made that point to me that the risk is that a platform might decide to just cop the fine and continue on unassisted. Should they choose to do that, they would still be failing to comply with the law. And any Australian company that seeks to conduct business on our shores must comply with Australian law. So. So we have found that even, like you say, they've been publicly reluctant, they've agreed with the principle, they do not agree with the method. We have found that the vast majority of the affected platforms have said, we consider ourselves to be a good company, we comply with the laws in the countries within which we operate.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

What do you see as success? You know, when will you know that this ban has been a success or not?

[Annika Wells]

So we've put in place a couple of different markers. We're going to have a two year survey that kicks off that monitors different parts of the law, speaking to the 13 to 16 year olds experts to track how this has gone and what we need to do differently or to adapt to make it work more effectively. And I've been trying to look at other cultural change laws like when we put seatbelts in, made them compulsory. When laws that prohibited under 18s from drinking alcohol, how long did that cultural change take to effect? And I think people understand this law in terms of that experience. This is a law, for example, in the same way that people under 18 aren't allowed to drink alcohol in Australia, there will be people today under 18 that drink alcohol in Australia. They may even be supported in doing that by their parents. That still doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a law that prevents under 18s from drinking alcohol in Australia because the public health evidence tells us that is a good and proper thing. To do. There will be people that act outside this law. We accept that doesn't mean it's not worth us putting the law in place and having a big swing at these reforms.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

Now Australia's being touted as a world first in smaller jurisdictions in some states in the U.S. for example, they've tried and failed to implement similar bans. The court has pushed them back. Are you worried about that failure? I mean, there's a High Court challenge here in Australia now by two teenagers. Is that something that worries you?

[Annika Wells]

Yes, I've met with some of those people. The governor of Utah came to Australia about a month ago, and we met about these laws, about his experiences. He pointed out some disclosure that's happening through the US court system because of these cases that actually reveals internal documents of these platforms where it's even worse than we thought in terms of intention and what they knew and what they chose not to do about it. That give me ballast that we have done the right thing and that of their own accord, they knew things and they chose not to do anything about it. We're pleased to be the first, we're proud to be the first, and we stand ready to help any other jurisdiction who seeks to do these things. Like you say, we have a High Court challenge somewhat limits what I'm able to say about this compared to this time last week, but in no way does it intimidate me. We stand firm on the side of parents and not on platforms. These people who seek to stymie us have ulterior motives and we will fight it in the courts.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

Are you intimidated by the tech companies?

[Annika Wells]

No. Anyone who's got multiple small children knows how to negotiate against powers that seem beyond your control. I am not intimidated by Big Tech because I understand the moral imperative of what we're doing. Pretty early on becoming the communications minister, some parents, bereaved parents who had lost kids to suicide through their social media activities, through bullying, through a series of events. I remember walking into a room to be introduced to them, and a guy named Whipper said, annika, this is Rob. Rob was standing there in a suit. He was holding a pink urn, and he said, and this is Liv. And I just felt the oxygen suck out of my body as the very real impact of what is happening stood so politely and respectfully in front of me, asking me to act. So in the face of that and countless other stories like that, I am firm and unintimidated by those companies continuing to act the way that they have chosen, chosen to act for so long.

[Katie Watson]

You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. People shaping our world from all over the world.

[Ray Winstone]

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

[Podcast Narrator/Ad Voice]

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[Ray Winstone]

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[Katie Watson]

For this episode of the Interview, I'm speaking to Annika Wells, Australia's communications minister, at her office in her electorate of Lilly, which is in Brisbane. It's a busy time for her. She got the job of communications and sports minister at the beginning of the year. The social media legislation had already been passed in Parliament by that stage, so she inherited the rollout if you like, and her media team was saying as much. This is big news and they're flat out speaking to families and teens and of course, media like us. She's pretty forthright on the reasons why this is good for parents. She's a mother of three herself and talked about those personal challenges. But perhaps more significantly, she seems unfazed by the potential challenges ahead, including from Silicon Valley giants and even the US President. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Anika Wells.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

Donald Trump has said he'll stand up to any country that attacks US Tech companies. The Australian Esafety Commission has been called to testify in front of the US Congress and being called a zealot. How worried are you about retaliation? You say you're not intimidated, but it's a big deal.

[Annika Wells]

I mean, the safety commissioner ultimately answers to me as the communications minister. She and I both consume ourselves with the work on our own shores, and at the moment we are very much concerned with doing our duty to Australians and Australian taxpayers who pay us to look after good public policy. The U.S. congress has every right to call whomever they want, but it doesn't mean that what we are obliged to do and what we should be doing should be impacted.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

Would you expect Donald Trump to weigh in on this?

[Annika Wells]

He may yet. He may even as we speak, and that's his right. But Australia was the world first in implementing eSafety, which is an independent regulator and a shop front essentially for harms that happen online. We did that 10 years ago. This is the next step in that work. And when I do this at the end of this year, the next thing I'll be doing is the digital duty of care, which we've committed to doing. It's an expansion of responsibility that social media platforms have to their users on Australian shores. Kind of answers the what abouts when people say often against these laws, but what about this? But what about this? A digital duty of care is about what do social media platforms owe to their users? And that's why we currently have out for consultation. What do Australians and Australian users of these platforms express? What do they think these platforms owe to them as Australian users? And that will form the digital duty of care, which forms part of the Albanese government response to the Online Safety act review.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

This has been turfed as a world first. There are lots of people watching this. What discussions are you having? Are countries coming to you asking advice or just are they sitting back and watching and waiting to see how this pans out?

[Annika Wells]

Both, I think. We went to the UN during High Level Week and we held an event, the President of the EU attended that to applaud the laws and to announce that the EU would be setting up a task force in December. Watching what Australia does, learning the lessons and seeing how that might apply in an EU context. Several of the other countries that attended that event have followed up with us. I think we had the President of Malta there, president of Greece there, president of Fiji, Prime Minister of Fiji. We had a number of world leaders there and many others who couldn't make it, who have remained interested in what we're doing. And I think it's one of those things that yes, we're the first in the world to do it, but I genuinely feel in 10 years time we're all going to look back and ask why did that take so long? Not why did they do that?

[Interviewer/Journalist]

I was at a school last week at a parents evening and lots of parents putting their hands up and then one dad put his hand up and asked about roadblocks. You yourself have mentioned that your daughter plays Roblox. When he asked that question, the mood and the room change, people were gasping, going, that's a question I want. Why there are so many parents want to know why on earth gaming platforms like Roblox Discord is another one, why they've not been included.

[Annika Wells]

So the safety commissioner definitely has her eye on Roblox and you would have seen that Roblox, even in recent weeks has had to take steps to make their platform more safe. I guess for us it is the login of the social media platform that we discerned as the first and most imperative thing to do do because it is the login that allows the algorithms to occur, that allows the data to be collected about you when you use the platform and I guess how they can make money out of you essentially. There was that piece of evidence that came out in a book recently about a 13 year old girl might take a selfie, might post it on a platform, might take it down a couple of hours later. That triggers the platform to know that she's not feeling particularly good about how she looks. The dieting ads, the makeup ads, the skincare ads all start up. That is bone chilling predatory behaviour for someone so vulnerable. And the person, the 13 year old who uploaded a selfie and deleted it never even knows. Like she can't see the harm. It's different from seeing porn online or violent content online. She never even knows that uploading a photo and deleting it has triggered an algorithm that can harm her mental and physical health. So for us it's the logins. It's not to say that we might do other things as the research comes in, to say that there'd be public utility in us doing other things. But this is where we decided to start. And for the nine particular platforms impacted as opposed to the ones that are not currently on the list, we really went to addressing the greatest harm first, the biggest users. So YouTube was originally exempted. I chose to include it when I tabled the rules in the Parliament with those bereaved parents in July. That's because YouTube has some of the greatest volume and extent of harm for 13 to 16 year olds online. So we'll start there and then we'll review it across the next two years. And we're operating in big tech. It's an innovative and agile space. So we'll have to do our best to be innovative and agile as well.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

Yeah, I mean a lot of people have said they've used the same word. It's a kind of whack a mole game of finding the right platforms. That legislation cannot keep pace with the change in technology.

[Annika Wells]

Yes. So that's why we've tried to err on the side of targeting features and functions of particular apps rather than ruling apps in and out. Because the case may be that in 11 days time a new platform pops up that is not named in laws, but has the same kind of toxic and unhealthy features and functions. So that gives the Safety Commissioner the ability to keep a roving watch, inform me. And for us to make decisions, there.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

Is a feeling that there's just a total lack of understanding of how young people work online. So Roblox and other online games, speaking to strangers and connecting with them, that is still a huge risk for young people. And if you're not eliminating that, it feels like there's a massive hole in this legislation.

[Annika Wells]

I don't consider it that way. I've been honest from the outside, this isn't a cure, it's a treatment plan. And treatment plans will always evolve as we adapt and address harm and see what works and what doesn't. So we aren't banning the Internet here. And whilst lots of people would like us to do more drastic measures, we've started with a social media login and for every person that says to me, why haven't you included these big elements? Someone else is saying to me, it is impossible for you to do what you've even set out to do now. So, so we'll Deliver this on the 10th of December, we'll watch what happens, we'll see what kind of cultural change it creates. We'll keep working on the response to the Online Safety act, we'll implement a digital duty of care for Australians next year and keep working.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

There is also a concern that the likes of Meta have perhaps should have worked faster on this. They also have the money to be able to protect children, perhaps more than other platforms that perhaps we don't know about that fear, that concern that by banning the famous ones that, you know, the adults have all heard of, then you're sending children into darker platforms that don't have those controls that they're being forced to work and go online without that protection.

[Annika Wells]

And that's something that we've been talking about, both the Esafety Commissioner and I, as we've working closely together on this and also with all the stakeholders that we've been engaging with as we roll this out. So something that the eSafety commissioner and I have spoken to and in public before is migratory patterns. So platforms have agreed to inform the ECFD Commissioner where they see migratory patterns and she also has the ability to summons, request information. We've bulked up those powers so that she has the ability to get the information that she needs to make those decisions and to provide me with advice. So I made a joke when we did a press conference with the Prime Minister that if the kids end up on LinkedIn, we're going to have a look at LinkedIn. LinkedIn's currently exempt as a professional networking platform, but if we see online harms start to emerge there, because that's where they've ended up as a result of being locked out of platforms they use now, we'll have a look at it. That's why these laws have to be agile and dynamic. And as for do they go to more nefarious or dark places of the Internet, I mean, that's every parent's nightmare. That's a nightmare we all live with day to day. Now, I say sometimes we can't control the ocean. You know, there's always going to be drownings in the ocean. But we can police the sharks. These are known predators who have made decisions that have harmed people and have chosen not to act. We can police them and the policing will look methodical, hopefully, and considered as we move forward.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

You can also, though, teach people to go in the water at, say, periods of time. How much of this should actually be education? There's a lot of money that's been spent on making this legislation work, which could be poured into educating children and parents.

[Annika Wells]

That's right. And that's why digital literacy has been part of a holistic approach to trying to improve our response to online safety. There is no one silver bullet for this. You're right. Part of stopping drownings on the beaches is having surf lifeguards. These are the kinds of things that we set up by having good, robust digital literacy methods and policies alongside regulation and alongside supports like Kids Helpline or Lifeline beyondblue, other people that work in this space.

[Interviewer/Journalist]

You talk about not giving in to intimidation. Have the tech companies been intimidating? Have they made threats or made very clear that they are very anti this ban? I mean, what's the relationship with you and the tech companies?

[Annika Wells]

I've had a broad range of experience experiences in my time since late May when I got the job. And I think one of the interesting elements of this has been that big tech is largely based overseas, and then they have very different setups on Australian shores. So even navigating who is the right person to be talking to, who is the right person to be communicating what needs to be done has been an educational, moving feast. But we've persisted and we haven't let them off the hook and we've said at every step of the way. For example, one thing that I put in place after sort of having a few meetings where it felt like we weren't getting the results we needed, I said, the eSafety commissioner and I will meet you together at the same time so you will have complete confidence that you are not getting two different versions of the same law. So we shall see. And more threats may yet come, but it doesn't change what we're going to do, which is roll out this law on the 10th of December. This is at the end of the day work to try and save a generation. So it's worth doing.

[Katie Watson]

Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with Nobel Prize winning journalist Maria Ressa, the boss of Google, Sundar Pichai, and education activist Malala Yousafzai. Until next time. Bye for now.

[Ray Winstone]

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who defeated fine tough.

[Podcast Narrator/Ad Voice]

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[Ray Winstone]

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