Antonio Guterres, UN Secretary General: the threat to international law from power

Summary

The Interview – Antonio Guterres, UN Secretary General: The Threat to International Law from Power

Host: Anna Foster, BBC World Service
Date: January 21, 2026
Guest: Antonio Guterres, Secretary-General of the United Nations

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Episode Overview

This episode features a candid and urgent conversation with Antonio Guterres, the outgoing Secretary-General of the United Nations. With global conflicts escalating, the humanitarian system under pressure, and international law being challenged by state power—most notably by the United States under Donald Trump—Guterres reflects honestly on the limitations and strengths of the UN, the problems of impunity, the failures and necessity of multilateralism, and the urgent need for reform. As he prepares to leave his post, Guterres offers both a stern warning and a note of hope for the role of international institutions in a rapidly shifting, multipolar world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Crisis of International Law and Multilateralism

• Guterres’ Warning: International law is being consistently undermined in favor of great power politics. The belief that “the power of law should be replaced by the law of power” is gaining ground.
  • “There are those that believe that the power of law should be replaced by the law of power.” (05:20, Guterres)
• Impunity is Rising: Geopolitical divides mean conflicts are more intractable, international mechanisms are blocked, and humanitarian suffering is escalating while global military expenditure soars (04:07, Guterres).
• Undermined Multilateralism: Big powers, especially the US, sideline the UN, believing unilateral action more effective.
  • “There is a clear conviction that multilateral solutions are not relevant and that what matters is the exercise of … power and the influence of the United States.” (05:30, Guterres)

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2. Failures and Limitations of the UN System

• Security Council Paralysis:
  • Outdated structure with no African or Latin American permanent members, dominated by Europe and Russia.
    • “The Security Council no longer represents the world that today exists.” (15:07, Guterres)
  • Veto power by powerful states used to block humanitarian or peace initiatives.
    • “The veto power is used in the protection of the interest of the members themselves, which … should not exist.” (15:40, Guterres)
• Lack of Leverage: The UN is deeply engaged globally but lacks meaningful leverage, especially compared to big state actors.
  • “The UN has no leverage. … Big powers have a stronger leverage in relation to others. The question is whether this leverage allows for a quick impact or whether the root causes of conflicts are solved.” (06:20, Guterres)

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3. Humanitarian Failures: Gaza as a Case Study

• Aid Blockages: The UN’s core humanitarian mission has repeatedly been thwarted by Security Council vetoes and access restrictions.
  • “We are not [distributing aid] because we are simply not allowed to do so.” (10:19, Guterres)
• Recent Improvements: After a ceasefire, humanitarian access improved, allowing credible aid delivery.
• US and Israel: Guterres acknowledges both criticism (“obstacles are too many”) and recent praise for US and international efforts (“humanitarian aid now is a miracle in Gaza”).
• Ongoing Crisis: Even with progress, enormous suffering persists: food, water, shelter, and sanitation needs remain unmet.
  • “The famine has been addressed. We are distributing 1,300,000 hot meals per day, but all the problems of water and sanitation are not solved … People are suffering still enormously.” (12:03, Guterres)

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4. On Iran, Venezuela, and the Question of Intervention

• Iran: Guterres unequivocally condemns human rights abuses by the Iranian regime but rejects military intervention as a means of response, warning it would plunge the world into chaos.
  • “We witnessed a level of repression that is totally unacceptable, with violations of human rights. … That doesn't mean that…other countries should go there and bomb.” (16:53, Guterres)
• Venezuela: Acknowledges election irregularities and human rights violations, but insists use of force or threats outside self-defense are violations of international law—and can set dangerous precedents.
• Member States’ Responsibility: The Secretary-General reiterates that impunity exists because member states wield power for their own interests and block reform rather than the UN institution itself.

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5. Reform and the Future of the UN

• Urgent Reform Required: Both Security Council composition and veto usage must change to regain global legitimacy and effectiveness.
  • Suggests model proposals limiting veto usage to certain crises (15:40, Guterres).
• Adapting to Multipolarity: Guterres foresees a shift as economies rise outside the old West, especially in Asia and the Global South, heralding eventual rebalancing:
  • “I am deeply convinced that the result of this will inevitably be a revival of multilateralism linked to a much more multipolar world with a much bigger equilibrium among the different powers.” (22:24, Guterres)
• Reasons for Hope: He observes younger generations are “more cosmopolitan” and believes in the inevitability of a “renewal”—with the UN still at its core.
  • “I am very optimistic about the future … and I'm fighting as much as I can in order to make sure that the UN is part of that renewal that I believe will become inevitable.” (24:13, Guterres)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Institutional Paralysis:
  “We are witnessing a situation of total impunity as the geopolitical divides are high.” (04:07, Guterres)
• On Humanitarian Work:
  “We had in Gaza 400 staff members killed, losing their lives, helping people…This is something whose value is unimaginable.” (07:51, Guterres)
• On Confronting Power:
  “If we don't confront the powerful, we will never be able to have a better world.” (21:32, Guterres)
• A Note of Realism and Hope:
  “Many fantastic, positive things are happening… I have a lot of confidence in the future of humankind.” (23:54, Guterres)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:17 – Guterres warns: “If you’re not a little bit afraid, then you’re not paying attention.”
• 02:13–03:48 – The structural legitimacy, efficiency, and composition crisis of the Security Council.
• 04:07 – Global impunity, suffering, and lack of humanitarian resources.
• 05:20 – The erosion of international law by powerful states.
• 10:12–12:47 – The humanitarian crisis and UN limitations in Gaza.
• 15:01–16:24 – Security Council reform necessity.
• 16:53–18:32 – Iran protests and challenges of accountability.
• 19:25–21:05 – Venezuela, use of force, and human rights.
• 22:12–24:13 – The future of the UN, adapting to a changing world.

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Conclusion

This conversation with Antonio Guterres lays bare the strengths and faults of the international system as it confronts unprecedented threats to law, legitimacy, and collective action. While brutally honest about the institutional failures and the corrosive effect of power politics, Guterres also makes the case for deep reform, a renewed faith in multilateralism, and optimism in the generations to come. He calls for courage among member states and sees hope in a world shifting towards greater multipolarity and accountability.

For listeners seeking a clear-eyed assessment of the UN and the international order’s future—tempered by experience but not devoid of hope—this episode is essential.

Transcript

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[Anna Foster]

Hello, I'm Anna Foster and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC People shaping our world from all over the world.

[Antonio Guterres]

If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united.

[Anna Foster]

Do not make that boat crossing, do not make that journey.

[Antonio Guterres]

Being born in America, feeling American, having.

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[Anna Foster]

We're more popular than populism. For this interview I met Antonio Guterres, Secretary General of the United Nations. As the head of the UN since 2017, he's now entering his final year in office and he's issuing a stark warning about the state of the world. Global conflicts are increasingly complex and seemingly intractable, and international law is seen by some as secondary to power and influence, in particular by the United States. In the face of this threat to the world order, he says the UN Security Council, designed to maintain international peace and security, is ineffective and in desperate need of reform.

[Antonio Guterres]

There is a problem of efficiency. There is a problem of legitimacy. Security Council was created after the Second World War. There was been a few adjustments, but still today we have no African permanent member in the Security Council. You have no Latin American permanent member of the Security Council. You have three European countries as permanent members of Security Council. First, there is a problem of legitimacy and of the composition. Second, there is the veto power and the fact that the veto power is used in the protection of the interest of the members themselves, which Is something. Something that, in my opinion, should not exist.

[Anna Foster]

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Antonio Guterres.

[Antonio Guterres]

It is clear that we are facing very difficult moments. It is clear that multilateralism is under attack. It is clear that many people think that they can solve the problems of the world by themselves. When the problems are more and more difficult, the challenges are bigger and bigger, from climate to the impacts of artificial intelligence. It is obvious that never like today, it was necessary to have strong international cooperation. It was obvious that never like today, we needed strong multilateral organizations. More than ones, reformed ones, but strong and unfortunately something. That it is enough to use power when we need law, that it is enough to use their strengths when you need international cooperation, when it is enough to impose a unilateral view when the world is more and more complex.

[Anna Foster]

As you come to the end of your tenure, it must be difficult for you to see intractable conflicts which are no closer to being resolved, which are devastating for countries around the world. And as you say, instead of coming together to try and solve those, we're moving further and further apart.

[Antonio Guterres]

We are witnessing a situation of total impunity as the geopolitical divides are high. Conflicts that before were localized are now conflicts in which different entities get involved, countries around and sometimes even further afield with the geopolitical divides, with the sense that anyone can do whatever they want because nothing will happen to them. Conflicts are becoming more intractable. And as I said, the suffering of people is increasing. And we see military expenditures growing exponentially, but humanitarian aid diminishing tragically. We are having more and more difficulties to support the people. People that is dying, the people that is suffering, hunger. And the frustration to see people dying, knowing that we could solve their problem and that we do not have the resources to do so. That is terrible.

[Anna Foster]

We use the word impunity, and you've talked about brazen violations of international law. Well, there are countries that we've seen do that time after time, but the US Is in the mix now in a way that we've never seen before. And Donald Trump is violating international law in a way that we've never seen before, isn't he?

[Antonio Guterres]

It's more general than that. It's the concept itself that is unfortunately losing ground. There are those that believe that the power of law should be replaced by the law of power. And indeed, when one see the present policy of the United States, there is a clear conviction that multilateral solutions are not relevant and that what matters is the exercise of the power and the influence of the United States. And sometimes in this respect, by the norms of international law.

[Anna Foster]

Donald Trump's been very clear about that. He spoke at the UN General Assembly. His words were scathing. He talked about the wars that he had ended. He said, it's too bad that I had to do these things instead of the United nations doing them. The United nations did not even try to help in any of them. Why? What is the purpose? He said of the United Nations.

[Antonio Guterres]

Let's be clear. There has been a number of peace initiatives from the United States, and we support them. And we are working closely with the United States in 80. We are working closely with the United States in humanitarian aid in Gaza. We are doing lots of things in which we are actively cooperating. But it's important to recognize that the UN is extremely engaged in the solution of all these conflicts. But the UN has no leverage. And indeed, it is true that big powers have a stronger leverage in relation to others. The question is whether this leverage allows for a quick impact or whether the root causes of conflicts are solved. And there is a big difference between the two things. We have many ceasefires, but then the fire breaks again. And unless you address the root causes, and the root causes are related to the questions of development in which the UN is involved. The root causes are related to the questions of human rights in which the UN is involved. The root causes are related to the cohesion of the societies in which we are involved. And so I believe that the need for this work in depth is essential. And it's not enough just to reach a quick agreement. Sometimes it's very difficult.

[Anna Foster]

So when Donald Trump questions the purpose and the usefulness of the United nations in this day and age, it is an attack on your institution and on you.

[Antonio Guterres]

But I believe the United nations is doing with all these difficulties and all these problems with the lack of resources, is doing something that we are very proud of, humanitarian aid around the world. I was High Commissioner for Refugees. You see UN staff supporting people in the most remote and dangerous positions in the world losing their lives. We had in Gaza 400 staff members killed, losing their lives, helping people. And this is something whose value is unimaginable. We see the United nations today a forum where countries accept to come in international cooperation, even if sometimes the United States is absent. We just formed the High Level Panel, Scientific Independent Panel on Artificial Intelligence. We are having a very committed and, I believe, leading role in fighting for climate action and in making sure that, unfortunately, we are going to have an overshoot over the 1.5 degrees because measures were not taken on time, but we are working hard to make it as short and limited as possible and to increase the international engagement, especially in supporting the weak countries that are suffering the impacts of climate change. So we are in the front lines of all the battles of today's world. And I'm very proud of the work the UN is doing. Of course, we need to do better, we need to do more. That's why we are involved in a very deep reform.

[Anna Foster]

Let's talk about some of the priorities, and you mentioned one of them there, which is Gaza. And you also gave us an insight into how deeply personal and difficult it must be, as you said, to see your staff losing their lives there, being killed there. When we look at what the UN has tried to do in Gaza, you've tried to deliver humanitarian aid, which is your purpose, which is something you do around the world, but you've been prevented from doing it. The Security Council has tried time and time again to establish resolutions for humanitarian pauses in the fighting to try and open up aid, but that hasn't happened because it's been VetoeD by the US. When you look at Gaza, does that feel like a failing for the United nations, something where you. You should have made a difference but couldn't?

[Antonio Guterres]

Well, of course, we always must aim to do better. But let's be clear. For a long time, Israel was saying that humanitarian aid was not distributed because the UN was not able to do so. And we were saying that we are not distributed because we are simply not allowed to do so. The obstacles are too many. And then there was a ceasefire, and all of a sudden, there was a massive flow of humanitarian. We were ready, provided we had the conditions. Again, conditions were stopped. There was a blockage. We could not deliver humanitarian aid. But recently, with the ceasefire that was established, even President Trump has recently said that humanitarian aid now is a miracle in Gaza is happening in an extraordinary way. But you have not so for so long that the truth is that at the present moment, we have dramatically improved our capacity to deliver as the obstacles have been reduced. We want to do better and we want to do more. But I'm quite proud of the work that our people in the. In the field, together with the Egyptian Red Crescent, together with the other partners, the NGOs, that now Israel wants to kick out, and they are absolutely essential for this work. Things have considerably improved in Gaza, even if life in Gaza is still an absolute tragedy. The US has announced the creation of a number of structures, and I want to say with the same clarity with which I have criticized many things. I think it's very important that these structures work and that it is possible to finally have a true ceasefire in Gaza and to move into phase two and to move in the end to decommissioning on one hand and to the creation of a Palestinian state on the other.

[Anna Foster]

But are there moments when you have felt powerless in that conflict, powerless to act, powerless to deliver aid, powerless to stop what was happening?

[Antonio Guterres]

Of course, whenever Israel would not allow us to move into Gaza, we couldn't move into Gaza. Fortunately, as I said, now things have improved and I hope that they will go on improving because the needs are still huge. The famine has been addressed. We are distributing 1,000,300 hot meals per day, but all the problems of water and sanitation are not solved. All the problems of rubble are not solved. Shelter is not solved. People are suffering still enormously. We must do much more and we need to stabilize the peace fire and to make sure that things will move in the right direction. And I hope that the structures that were created will make it happen.

[Anna Foster]

You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

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[Anna Foster]

Security was tight for Antonio Guterres visit to the BBC. He was in London to mark 80 years since the UN's very first meeting there. He was also fresh from a conversation with the Prime Minister, Sakir Starmer in Downing Street. Now, he doesn't give interviews often, but he was eager to talk. In the final year of his tenure as UN chief, Mr. Guterres has plenty that he wants to say about the changing global order as he prepares to hand over one of the most complex diplomatic jobs in the world to someone new. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Antonio Guterres. You've talked about reform in various different sectors, but one of the things that you mentioned in your speech was reform of the Security Council. And we talked about the way that veto countries are able to stop things happening. We talked about it happening on Gaza, but it's also happened on Ukraine as well, where Russia has repeatedly vetoed humanitarian pauses, ceasefires, ends to the fighting. Do you think it's time now for the Security Council structure to be reformed?

[Antonio Guterres]

Well, it has been a long time that that is absolutely essential. There is a problem of efficiency. There is a problem legitimacy. Security Council was created after the Second World War. There was been a few adjustments, but still today, you have no African permanent member in the Security Council. You have no Latin American permanent member Security Council. You have three European permanent. Russia is a European country, whether you like it or not. But I mean, you have three European countries as permanent members of the Security Council. I mean, the Security Council no longer represents the world that today exists.

[Anna Foster]

And you also have protagonists who are able to frustrate the will of a huge number of other member countries.

[Antonio Guterres]

So, first, there is a problem of legitimacy and of the composition. Second, there is the veto power, and the fact that the veto power is used in the protection of the interest of the members themselves, which is something that, in my opinion, should not exist. There was an interesting proposal by the UK and France to limit veto power to situations of atrocities and others of the kind. And I would very strongly encourage not only the change of composition of the Security Council that is absolutely essential to regain legitimacy and to give voice to the whole world, but also to limit the veto power in order to avoid the kind of blockages that we are witnessing that are very difficult to accept and very difficult to swallow.

[Anna Foster]

You've said that you are deeply concerned about the violent repression that's been happening in Iran. Regime forces killing protesters in large numbers. In fact, the regime wrote to you asking you to confirm and support narratives that they were not behind that violence. They were asking you to condemn the U.S. what is your view and what is your assessment? Because, of course, it's very difficult to know how many people have been killed, how terrible those atrocities were.

[Antonio Guterres]

We have no reliable information about exactly what has happened. But it is obvious that we witnessed a level of repression that is totally unacceptable, with violations of human rights. That we cannot accept. That doesn't mean that we believe that in such situations, other countries should go there and bomb or should start a war because of that, because then the world will enter into absolute chaos. International law will be completely trampled. But what has happened in Iran is indeed completely unacceptable. The number of people killed that we don't know exactly. But in any case, it was very meaningful. It's not compatible to what it is today's world.

[Anna Foster]

And you have member countries carrying out atrocities like that and no power to stop them.

[Antonio Guterres]

But that is the big question of impunity. We have very few instruments, first of all, because Security Council in itself is ineffective. You have the International Criminal Court under fire and with enormous difficulties to operate. And even the International Court of Justice, we see how difficult it is for their decisions to be accepted. So there is a sense of impunity. And we need to create mechanisms of accountability that are more effective because that.

[Anna Foster]

Makes people question the purpose and the value of the United Nations.

[Antonio Guterres]

The question is not the United Nations. The question is the member states. I mean, it's not United nations that creates the situations that you mentioned, or it's not United nations that deliberately doesn't stop them.

[Anna Foster]

No, but people say if the United nations has no power and the mechanism.

[Antonio Guterres]

It'S the action of member states that creates the problems and do not allow the problems to be solved. Now, the drama is that multilateral institutions we have, namely the United nations, are today not adapted to the dramatic problems and challenges of the world that we face. And that is why reform is necessary. And you just mentioned some of the reforms that are needed and we are doing in the area of competence that we have a huge effort to make the UN more effective, more cost effective, more united, and more able to respond to the needs of the people we care for.

[Anna Foster]

You touched on this, but do you feel that potential US Military intervention in Iran could make things worse for people there?

[Antonio Guterres]

I don't think it would change anything. I don't think it's with military interventions that we change things. But I think that all the pressure should be put in Iran to make sure that these violations of human rights are not repeated.

[Anna Foster]

And when we look at Venezuela, for example, and I feel that the themes and the countries and the conflicts that we keep talking about keep bringing us back to that point you made about brazen violations of international law. We saw the US Go in there. We saw them seize the president of the country. Again, we come back to that word that you used, impunity, acting with impunity.

[Antonio Guterres]

But let's be clear. You need to see the whole picture in Venezuela. I mean, we had elections in which our people that were there verified that there were irregularities. You have violations of human rights. You had difficulties for the opposition in the electoral campaigns. So you had many things that of course we were not in agreement with what was happening in Venezuela. That is one point.

[Anna Foster]

Yes, it is.

[Antonio Guterres]

We shouldn't forget that.

[Anna Foster]

We shouldn't forget that. No, that's very important. There was also a violent point in.

[Antonio Guterres]

That second point that this does not legitimate the use of force because the use of force or the threat use of force except in self defense are a violation of international law. And obviously, as this then is the decision of those that do it, we risk to have that use of force for all kinds of purposes in all kinds of circumstances. And even without any kind of justification, even if that justification is not enough to justify the use of force, but with justifications that could be completely false in several circumstances. We have the paradoxical situation to a certain extent in which the regime is still in place and the big discussions are more about oil than about the human rights of the Venezuelan people.

[Anna Foster]

They are. When you see member states and world leaders and you see, as you said there, you know you have identified a violation of the UN Charter with what happened in Venezuela. And when you see world leaders and here in the UK as well, and the response to that is muted, do you feel that they are speaking up strongly enough in defense of the UN Charter, in defense of international law?

[Antonio Guterres]

I think that people are sometimes reluctant to confront the powerful. But the truth is that if we don't confront the powerful, we will never be able to have a better world.

[Anna Foster]

What do you think the next few years hold for the organization? And again, I feel like we've come back to several key themes as we've been speaking here, international law being one of them. And the fact that the US in particular, one of the founding countries of the United nations, is really operating in a very different way now. Do you think the United nations can survive the age of President Trump?

[Antonio Guterres]

I have no doubt about it. And we are perfectly convinced that we need, of course, to adapt. The world is changing very quickly, so we need to change. But never multilaterally is more money than ever. And at the same time, there are megatrends that are happening. I mean, if you look at the world of a few decades ago, developed countries would represent the overwhelming majority of the world economy every single day. Now the developed countries represent a little bit less of the global economy than the day before and every single day, the emerging economies, you have China, you have India, you have Indonesia, you have Brazil, you have Vietnam and so on. I could go. I mean, they represent bigger share of the international economy. Power relations are changing slowly. I am deeply convinced that the result of this will inevitably be a revival of multilateralism linked to a much more multipolar world with a much bigger equilibrium among the different powers.

[Anna Foster]

How do you retain that positivity when you see, for example, the US And Donald Trump saying that he will annex Greenland and countries in Europe, and indeed he himself saying, well, that would be the end of, of NATO, another multilateral organization. When people talk about these organizations that were put together in a spirit of cooperation and peace and you hear them being described in, in such a disposable way, how do you retain your positivity that they, they do have a future?

[Antonio Guterres]

People talk about lots of things, but that doesn't mean that. That those things will happen. And many other people are doing things.

[Anna Foster]

Rhetoric is important, though. If people feel.

[Antonio Guterres]

And many other people, many other people are doing things in the right direction. And many fantastic, positive things are happening in the world. Many examples of generosity, of solidarity are happening in the world. I have a lot of confidence in the future of humankind. I see the young generations much more cosmopolitan, much more based on a strict, strict nationalist approach. Of course, we see populism with the present generations, but the future generations, I see them with a much more sense of humanity. And I am very optimistic about the future and I'm fighting as much as I can in order to make sure that the UN is part of that renewal that I believe will become inevitable.

[Anna Foster]

Thank you for listening to the interview. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can find many more episodes of the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including ones with the President of Poland, Carol Navrocki, author Sir Salman Rushdie, and Russian punk activist Maria Alyokina. Until next time. Bye for now.

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