The Interview – Antonio Guterres, UN Secretary General: The Threat to International Law from Power

Host: Anna Foster, BBC World Service
Date: January 21, 2026
Guest: Antonio Guterres, Secretary-General of the United Nations

Episode Overview

This episode features a candid and urgent conversation with Antonio Guterres, the outgoing Secretary-General of the United Nations. With global conflicts escalating, the humanitarian system under pressure, and international law being challenged by state power—most notably by the United States under Donald Trump—Guterres reflects honestly on the limitations and strengths of the UN, the problems of impunity, the failures and necessity of multilateralism, and the urgent need for reform. As he prepares to leave his post, Guterres offers both a stern warning and a note of hope for the role of international institutions in a rapidly shifting, multipolar world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Crisis of International Law and Multilateralism

• Guterres’ Warning: International law is being consistently undermined in favor of great power politics. The belief that “the power of law should be replaced by the law of power” is gaining ground.
  • “There are those that believe that the power of law should be replaced by the law of power.” (05:20, Guterres)
• Impunity is Rising: Geopolitical divides mean conflicts are more intractable, international mechanisms are blocked, and humanitarian suffering is escalating while global military expenditure soars (04:07, Guterres).
• Undermined Multilateralism: Big powers, especially the US, sideline the UN, believing unilateral action more effective.
  • “There is a clear conviction that multilateral solutions are not relevant and that what matters is the exercise of … power and the influence of the United States.” (05:30, Guterres)

2. Failures and Limitations of the UN System

• Security Council Paralysis:
  • Outdated structure with no African or Latin American permanent members, dominated by Europe and Russia.
    • “The Security Council no longer represents the world that today exists.” (15:07, Guterres)
  • Veto power by powerful states used to block humanitarian or peace initiatives.
    • “The veto power is used in the protection of the interest of the members themselves, which … should not exist.” (15:40, Guterres)
• Lack of Leverage: The UN is deeply engaged globally but lacks meaningful leverage, especially compared to big state actors.
  • “The UN has no leverage. … Big powers have a stronger leverage in relation to others. The question is whether this leverage allows for a quick impact or whether the root causes of conflicts are solved.” (06:20, Guterres)

3. Humanitarian Failures: Gaza as a Case Study

• Aid Blockages: The UN’s core humanitarian mission has repeatedly been thwarted by Security Council vetoes and access restrictions.
  • “We are not [distributing aid] because we are simply not allowed to do so.” (10:19, Guterres)
• Recent Improvements: After a ceasefire, humanitarian access improved, allowing credible aid delivery.
• US and Israel: Guterres acknowledges both criticism (“obstacles are too many”) and recent praise for US and international efforts (“humanitarian aid now is a miracle in Gaza”).
• Ongoing Crisis: Even with progress, enormous suffering persists: food, water, shelter, and sanitation needs remain unmet.
  • “The famine has been addressed. We are distributing 1,300,000 hot meals per day, but all the problems of water and sanitation are not solved … People are suffering still enormously.” (12:03, Guterres)

4. On Iran, Venezuela, and the Question of Intervention

• Iran: Guterres unequivocally condemns human rights abuses by the Iranian regime but rejects military intervention as a means of response, warning it would plunge the world into chaos.
  • “We witnessed a level of repression that is totally unacceptable, with violations of human rights. … That doesn't mean that…other countries should go there and bomb.” (16:53, Guterres)
• Venezuela: Acknowledges election irregularities and human rights violations, but insists use of force or threats outside self-defense are violations of international law—and can set dangerous precedents.
• Member States’ Responsibility: The Secretary-General reiterates that impunity exists because member states wield power for their own interests and block reform rather than the UN institution itself.

5. Reform and the Future of the UN

• Urgent Reform Required: Both Security Council composition and veto usage must change to regain global legitimacy and effectiveness.
  • Suggests model proposals limiting veto usage to certain crises (15:40, Guterres).
• Adapting to Multipolarity: Guterres foresees a shift as economies rise outside the old West, especially in Asia and the Global South, heralding eventual rebalancing:
  • “I am deeply convinced that the result of this will inevitably be a revival of multilateralism linked to a much more multipolar world with a much bigger equilibrium among the different powers.” (22:24, Guterres)
• Reasons for Hope: He observes younger generations are “more cosmopolitan” and believes in the inevitability of a “renewal”—with the UN still at its core.
  • “I am very optimistic about the future … and I'm fighting as much as I can in order to make sure that the UN is part of that renewal that I believe will become inevitable.” (24:13, Guterres)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Institutional Paralysis:
  “We are witnessing a situation of total impunity as the geopolitical divides are high.” (04:07, Guterres)
• On Humanitarian Work:
  “We had in Gaza 400 staff members killed, losing their lives, helping people…This is something whose value is unimaginable.” (07:51, Guterres)
• On Confronting Power:
  “If we don't confront the powerful, we will never be able to have a better world.” (21:32, Guterres)
• A Note of Realism and Hope:
  “Many fantastic, positive things are happening… I have a lot of confidence in the future of humankind.” (23:54, Guterres)

Key Timestamps

• 01:17 – Guterres warns: “If you’re not a little bit afraid, then you’re not paying attention.”
• 02:13–03:48 – The structural legitimacy, efficiency, and composition crisis of the Security Council.
• 04:07 – Global impunity, suffering, and lack of humanitarian resources.
• 05:20 – The erosion of international law by powerful states.
• 10:12–12:47 – The humanitarian crisis and UN limitations in Gaza.
• 15:01–16:24 – Security Council reform necessity.
• 16:53–18:32 – Iran protests and challenges of accountability.
• 19:25–21:05 – Venezuela, use of force, and human rights.
• 22:12–24:13 – The future of the UN, adapting to a changing world.

Conclusion

This conversation with Antonio Guterres lays bare the strengths and faults of the international system as it confronts unprecedented threats to law, legitimacy, and collective action. While brutally honest about the institutional failures and the corrosive effect of power politics, Guterres also makes the case for deep reform, a renewed faith in multilateralism, and optimism in the generations to come. He calls for courage among member states and sees hope in a world shifting towards greater multipolarity and accountability.

For listeners seeking a clear-eyed assessment of the UN and the international order’s future—tempered by experience but not devoid of hope—this episode is essential.