The Interview – Audrey Tang: Bringing Digital Diplomacy to the World

BBC World Service | Host: Zoe Kleinman | Date: December 19, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features Audrey Tang, Taiwan’s Cyber Ambassador at Large and former Digital Minister, renowned for shaping Taiwan's digital democracy, transparency, and civic engagement. Host Zoe Kleinman delves into Tang’s extraordinary personal story, their digital philosophy, use of technology to strengthen democracy, and proactive approach to digital threats—especially AI and foreign interference. Tang's insights emphasize the centrality of humanity in technology and offer a vision for globally scalable digital governance.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Audrey Tang’s Background and Philosophy

• Childhood Health and Early Digital Life
  • Tang recounts being born with a serious heart defect and the impact it had:

    "When I was almost five years old, doctors told me and my family that I only had a 50% chance to survive until heart surgery. So for the first 12 years of my life, I could not get too upset or too happy." (03:25)

  • Developed practices of Taoist breathing, meditation, and a habit of sharing knowledge openly:

    "I learned that before I go to sleep, I publish everything I learned every day. I call this publish before I perish. Because it felt like a coin toss." (03:56)

  • Embraced imperfection online to foster collaboration:

    "Imperfection is an invitation. If I post something too perfect, people just press like, and then they scroll away. But... people see those vulnerabilities, those cracks, as invitations to chime in, to contribute." (04:32)

2. From Activist to Government Innovator

• 2014 Sunflower Movement and Democratic Innovation
  • Involvement in protests against a China trade deal led to a new participatory democratic model in Taiwan:

    "We turned the protest into a demonstration... to have a real conversation about our preferences... After three weeks... we actually converged on a set of uncommon ground... The speaker of the parliament at the time said, well, the people's version is better than the MPs version, so let's go with it." (05:24)

  • Emphasized moving from mere rebellion to constructive demonstration:

    "The rebellion was the direct action, but the demonstration was in a new form of democracy." (07:32)

3. Transparency and Digital Engagement in Governance

• Radical Trust and Civic Technology (vTaiwan Example)
  • Government moved from low trust to high trust by involving citizens directly:

    "To give no trust is to get no trust. So the government needs to radically trust the people." (08:22)

  • The vTaiwan process enabled consensus-driven policymaking:

    "By making the bridging ideas viral, not the extreme ideas, we agreed on a set of law that is not just fair to taxi and Uber, but also takes care of the rural places..." (09:06)

  • Resulted in a jump in government approval ratings, from 9% to over 70% (09:25)

4. Digital Resilience: Pandemic and Disinformation

• Media Competency and Civic Journalism

  • Taiwan prioritized creating journalists, not just information consumers, even among students:

    "All our primary schoolers, high schoolers, learn not just media literacy receiving information, but rather media competency producing information... so that everybody share the same common knowledge..." (10:07)

  • Enabled rapid and collective adaptation during COVID-19, effective mask allocation, and minimized deaths:

    "We only lost seven people in the first year of the pandemic. And we never locked down any city during the three years." (11:20)

• Countering Foreign Interference and Deepfakes

  • Tang embraced "pre-bunking" by demonstrating deepfake vulnerability to the public ahead of elections:

    "Already two years ago I deep faked myself showing people how easy it is at a time already." (11:46)

  • Used grassroots discussion to define regulatory “red lines” and civic AI for democratic decision-making:

    "This conversation to draw the red lines around deepfakes online was facilitated by what I call assistive intelligence. So it's also AI, but it's civic AI, it's communal AI." (12:44)

5. International Scaling of Digital Democracy

• Global Relevance of Taiwan's Digital Methods
  • Collaborations with U.S. partners using civic AI to facilitate nationwide conversations:

    "We have just concluded a very successful experiment... together these 1,000 or so people... using assistive intelligence... build a social translation between people..." (14:08)

  • Showcased how bridging different worldviews can lead to actionable consensus.

6. AI Threats, Alignment & Techno-Communitarianism

• Synthetic Intimacy and AI Alignment
  • Tang highlights the growing concern over AI shaping human relationships:

    "One in ten people report that when they have an extended conversation with AI chatbots, it is the chatbot controlling the direction... already people are feeling pulled by synthetic intimacy." (02:38 and 24:59)

  • Advocates for AI designed to empower communities, not just corporations:

    "Instead of making tech progress at the expense of the local communities, empower the local community in what I call techno communitarianism..." (19:17)

7. Regulation, Portability, and Healthier Alternatives

• Constructive Regulation over Banning
  • On social media and AI:

    "I'm not saying that banning is the complete solution. It may be one part of the solution, but it always works best if you can provide a healthier alternative in the same place." (20:10)

  • In Taiwan, students use devices for constructive, communal activity as an alternative to passive consumption.
• Data Portability and User Empowerment
  • Advocates for context portability across platforms to prevent monopolistic traps:

    "If I switch from one AI service to the other, anything this AI learns about me should be transferred to the next service..." (23:04)

  • Notes that competition, not just incumbents, can drive support for such reforms.

8. Cybersecurity and Geopolitics

• Resilience Against Cyberattacks
  • Taiwan faces millions of daily cyberattacks, sees them as global learning opportunities:

    "We enjoy free penetration testing... 2 million attempts every day... each attack becomes some intelligence that we can share with democracies around the world..." (26:09)

  • Stresses that the digital defense of one democracy benefits the collective.

9. Closing Reflections and Poetic Vision

• Human-Centric Technology
  • Audrey Tang shares a 2016 poem as a guiding vision for technology:

    "When we see Internet of things, let's make it an Internet of beings. When we see virtual reality, let's make it a shared reality. When we see machine learning, let's make it collaborative learning... And whenever we hear that the singularity is near, let's always remember the plurality is here." (17:43)

• Final Word on the AI Race
  • Tang insists humanity must come first:

    "If humanity do not win the AI race, there may not be a human race anymore. So we're all in this together." (26:51)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On trust and democracy:

  "To give no trust is to get no trust. So the government needs to radically trust the people." (08:22) – Audrey Tang

• On AI and synthetic intimacy:

  "One in ten people report that when they have an extended conversation with AI chatbots, it is the chatbot controlling the direction of conversation. They are out of control..." (02:38/24:59) – Audrey Tang

• On digital resilience:

  "We enjoy free penetration testing... each attack becomes some intelligence that we can share with democracies around the world..." (26:09) – Audrey Tang

• On the human mission in technology:

  "When we see Internet of things, let's make it an Internet of beings ... And whenever we hear that the singularity is near, let's always remember the plurality is here." (17:43) – Audrey Tang

• On the AI race:

  "If humanity do not win the AI race, there may not be a human race anymore." (26:51) – Audrey Tang

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Topic | Timestamp | |---------|-------|-----------| | Tang’s Childhood & Publishing Practice | 03:25–04:23 | | Sunflower Movement & Democratic Innovation | 05:09–08:06 | | vTaiwan and Civic Tech Success | 08:22–09:43 | | Pandemic, Misinformation, and Civic Journalism | 09:53–11:27 | | Pre-bunking Election Interference | 11:46–13:53 | | International Collaboration on Civic AI | 14:08–15:24 | | Tang’s 2016 Poem | 17:43–18:11 | | AI Threats and Alignment | 18:17–20:10 | | Data Portability & Platform Competition | 23:04–24:49 | | Resilience Against Cyberattacks | 26:01–26:47 | | “Who wins the AI race?” | 26:51 |

Tone & Style

Warm, approachable, and optimistic, Tang blends philosophical depth with practical optimism. Tang’s language is inclusive (“we,” “together”), focusing on empowerment, transparency, and civic belonging, while maintaining a pragmatic stance on digital threats and future challenges.

Takeaways

• Human-centred technology is achievable through civic engagement, transparency, and community-aligned AI.
• Democratic resilience relies on participatory governance, media competency, and international cooperation.
• Global challenges such as AI alignment, social media toxicity, and cyber warfare can be faced by empowering communities—plurality over singularity.

This episode vividly illustrates how digital diplomacy, when grounded in trust and civic participation, can both defend and advance democracy in the digital age. Audrey Tang stands as an exemplar for techno-humanism, making Taiwan's story a model for the world.