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The Interview
Boris Johnson and Sir Tony Radakin: Ukrainians are heroes
00:23:00
Laura Kuenssberg speaks to Boris Johnson and Sir Tony Radakin about the Russia-Ukraine War
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- [00:00]
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- [01:16]
Laura Kuenssberg
Hello, I'm BBC presenter Laura Kunzberg and this is the interview from the BBC World. The best conversations coming out of the BBC People shaping our world from all over the world.
- [01:30]
Admiral Sir Tony Radakin
If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention.
- [01:34]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing, do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not.
- [01:44]
Admiral Sir Tony Radakin
We're more popular than populism.
- [01:48]
Laura Kuenssberg
For this interview, I met former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson and former head of the British Armed Forces Admiral Sir Tony Radican, at the Royal United services Institute on London's Whitehall. Mr. Johnson was in Downing street four years ago when the Russian invasion of Ukraine began. As one of the driving forces behind the West's initial response, he's long been critical of the slowness of allies in providing support to President Zelensky, which Mr. Johnson says has cost lives. Indeed, both he and Sertoni believe the conflict might have been prevented altogether if Western allies had paid more attention to Putin's increasing aggression and his annexation of Crimea in 2014. With the war grinding on, Mr. Johnson's current successor, Sir Keir Starmer, is building a coalition of the willing to preserve peace and stability in Ukraine, but only if there is a deal to end the war however, Russia's President, Vladimir Putin, would most likely view the presence of international troops, even on a peacekeeping mission, as a major provocation.
- [02:55]
Boris Johnson
Sadly, there is a delusion in the United States if they think that Putin wants peace. I don't think you should underestimate how much the Ukrainians want peace and actually how flexible they're willing to be. And, you know, if you look at where we've got to in the negotiations, these are incredible concessions that Zelenskyy would be asking his people to make. And he can only do it if he gets really powerful security guarantees. But the thing that's missing from all of this is Putin. We've heard nothing from Moscow to suggest that they want to agree such a plan, the way to end this thing, is finally, psychologically to convince Putin that he made a strategic case category error in thinking that he could simply reabsorb Ukraine into the Soviet empire. That that has failed. It's a question of now how he presents that failure to the Russian people. And he has the wherewithal to explain it to them in terms that I think will be politically survivable for him.
- [04:02]
Laura Kuenssberg
Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Boris Johnson and Admiral Sir Tony Radican.
- [04:09]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
Take us back then, to that moment, the early hours in February 2022. The phone call came and the invasion was on.
- [04:18]
Boris Johnson
Yes, this was about 4 in the morning, maybe a bit earlier, from the National Security Adviser, Stephen Lovegrove. And he rang me to say that it was happening. I mean, we'd been expecting it, really. The night before, we all gone to bed thinking probably something was going to happen. And so I think I uttered some sort of expletives and then went downstairs and got on with it. I think the trouble with it was that although we in the UK had been expecting it and the Americans had been expecting it, one of the difficulties in the Western response was that even at that stage, I think some of our European friends weren't convinced that it was actually going to happen. And that meant that our initial response wasn't perhaps as robust as it should have been. And it took some time to get things organized.
- [05:08]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
And so, Tony, you weren't surprised?
- [05:11]
Admiral Sir Tony Radakin
No, because I actually think our intelligence services, our chief of defence intelligence, Jim Hockenhole, had been saying that this was going to happen literally for months. Then, as we were getting closer and closer, it was really clear it was going to happen. Yet at the tactical level, Russia was moving bloods up to their people on the border. They have mobile crematorium. You don't do that in an exercise. And then I got the call at maybe 10 past, 20 past 3 in the morning. And if I'm honest, because it was expected, it's almost like a relief. It sounds awful to say so there's a calmness because it's happened and okay, now what are we going to do about it? What is going to be the international response?
- [05:58]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
You'd spoken to Vladimir Putin not that long before you told him if he went ahead, NATO troops would go to the Russian border. Did he lie to you?
- [06:08]
Boris Johnson
Of course he lied. And he, he lied right up to the, to the very end. I mean, looking back on it, I think what we really. I don't think there was any way of stopping him in the sense that he'd made up his mind, I think way back. And he was determined to capture Ukraine, to conquer, to subjugate Ukraine. And I think what we really should have rammed home to him was that we regarded the freedom of Ukraine, the independence, the sovereignty of Ukraine as a strategic objective for the west, that we would invest huge sums to support Ukraine, and we didn't do that.
- [06:48]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
Other countries were more reluctant than you, and perhaps you as a payer were to make a very strong statement in response to the invasion.
- [06:56]
Boris Johnson
I think that, yes, I think that, you know, I remember at the Munich security conference, not long before the invasion, talking to the German delegation and, you know, first of all, there was this sort of denial about whether it was actually going to happen, which was shared a bit by the French and others, but also sort of what weird sense that maybe just from a purely humanitarian perspective, it might be a better thing if Ukraine folded and if the war was over rapidly. And, you know, this was completely alien to my way of thinking and seemed to be totally wrong.
- [07:38]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
The expectation was that Kyiv might fall in a matter of days. And then this video emerged of Zelenskyy walking around an empty Kyiv with some of his colleagues. Do you remember seeing those images?
- [07:54]
Admiral Sir Tony Radakin
I don't know if we thought Kyiv was going to fall within day. I think that that was always up for debate and so on. But the images to me that were really striking was the battle over Hostomel Airport just, just to the north of Kyiv, which was, we knew, was key to, to Russia's plans and the Ukrainians were magnificent. But that changed hands between Russia and Ukraine about five or six times over a couple of days. And then the other piece that then, because of Hostomal and because Ukraine was successful in not allowing Russia to get a lodgment there, that was the image That I always remember was of all that armor and the convoy that was stuck.
- [08:36]
Boris Johnson
That was amazing. What happened was that the Russian plan was basically to take Hostomel, which is the airport just north of Kiev, and then all the tanks and armor were going to come down without their crews and everything else, because they were all going to land by air. But because the Ukrainians fought so hard at the airport, you had all these pointless sort of units, uber like convoy of tanks without crews, and the Russians couldn't advance.
- [09:08]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
Before we move on, though, to the conduct then of the war, do you think, though, that the UK and its Western allies were naive? Did they enable the invasion in the first place by allowing Crimea to be taken in 2014 and simply successive UK governments not taking this seriously enough when Putin's increasing aggression was there for everyone to see?
- [09:34]
Boris Johnson
I do think that, and I think that the failure to do anything in Crimea in 2014 was tragic. I think that Putin was emboldened by Western failure in Syria to punish Assad for using chemical weapons. I think that Putin was further emboldened in 2022, in February 2022, by what he'd seen in Afghanistan and a sort of general sense that the west was on the back foot. You know, he'd seen these appalling pictures of Americans being forced to FLE Afghanistan, the UK pulling out as well, of course, and I think that that really did embolden him. So, yes, I think, sadly, I think the answer to your question is yes. Yes, it wasn't helped by the general ambiguity of the Western position. We could have solved this problem if we'd been clear about what Ukraine was. We continually said to them, you can join NATO and you're on the path to the West. But we never made good that promise. I think if we'd had clarity and simplicity about Ukraine rather than endless fudge and obscurity, we could have said, we could have saved that, we could have prevented that invasion.
- [10:57]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
But as somebody, by being strong, as somebody who was a leading politician for much of that time, do you personally regret that if the west in general had stood up and taken a stronger line to Putin, as you suggest, perhaps this war could have been avoided? Do you have personal regrets?
- [11:13]
Boris Johnson
I mean, I think I wasn't obviously in office in 2014. I think I was Mayor of London, but, you know.
- [11:18]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
But then later you were Foreign Secretary.
- [11:20]
Boris Johnson
But I do think. I do think. I do think we should have done more. And so, yeah, when I became Foreign Secretary In 2016, we were running Project Orbital, Operation Orbital, for instance. We were training the Ukrainians. We were out there trying to help them in all sorts of ways. But by then, you know, there was this fundamental ambiguity and uncertainty about our attitude to Ukraine. And I've got to say I think that is still there. The real problem is with Ukraine that Putin does not yet believe or he has not yet been convinced that the west regards it as an overwhelming strategic objective for Ukraine to be a free and independent United States, European country. And until he sees the evidence that that is our determination, I think he's just going to keep going. And that's, that's the problem we're in. It's that fundamental lack of resolve.
- [12:27]
Laura Kuenssberg
You are listening to the interview from the BBC World.
- [12:36]
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- [13:54]
Laura Kuenssberg
It was striking to sit down with Boris Johnson and Admiral Sir Tony Radican. They were the Prime Minister and the head of the military at a time when conflict returned to the European continent. It was eerie to hear them recount what it was like to get a phone call in the early hours of the morning on 24th February 2022, telling them that the invasion of Ukraine they'd been expecting was actually taking place. Britain has been seen as one of the leading allies of Ukraine at the heart of trying to galvanize other Western support. And arguably it was Boris Johnson and Sir Tony Radican who were the two most important voices leading those decisions. Of course, the conflict has been grinding, bitter for long, years long, and there's huge disagreement about how to bring it to a close. But it was obvious that Sir Tony and Boris Johnson both feel frustration that Western support has not always been as vigorous or as eager as it needs to be in order to drive a conclusion to a conflict that's cost so many lives. Let's return to our conversation with Boris Johnson and Sir Tony Radican talking not just about what happened at the start, but how this war might end.
- [15:13]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
There's been a pattern we've seen many times where President Zelenskyy has said, give me this missile or give me this bit of kit. Western leaders have said, oh, maybe not yet, maybe in a while. It's often dragged on for many, many months. And then in the end, the west does often oblige. Do you think that the UK and its Western allies have been too slow and too cautious in giving President Zelenskyy what he's asking for?
- [15:38]
Admiral Sir Tony Radakin
There was always escalation, anxiety, and that, you know, if you then in a way played to the uk, the UK leading with end laws, the UK leading with our main battle tanks, leading with Storm Shadow, and each time others would then follow and each time the reported red lines of Putin evaporated. So I think it's that. But if you're in Kiev, then this feels like incrementalism. It feels like it's too slow and it's deeply frustrating. And those tensions have existed all the way through.
- [16:17]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
Has that Western caution cost lives and prolonged the conflict?
- [16:21]
Boris Johnson
Of course, I think we've always delayed needlessly. We've then ended up giving the Ukrainians what they've been asking for. And actually it's always served to their advantage and to the disadvantage of Putin. I mean, the one person who suffers from escalation is Putin. We're in exactly the same position today because of course people are saying, oh, well, we mustn't give the Ukrainians the long range Tomahawk cruise missiles with which they could take out the factories far from the border that are making these Shaheed missiles. And they say there's a risk of escalation. We're having exactly the same argument again. And night after night, you're seeing Putin sadistically torturing Ukraine, destroying the energy, the electricity infrastructure, killing civilians in their apartment blocks with these missiles, which could be destroyed, the factories could be destroyed if we gave the Ukrainians the wherewithal. And, you know, we've just got to learn the lessons of the last four years. What we're doing, I'm afraid, is continually giving the Ukrainians too late. Just enough to stop them from losing, but not enough to help them bring the war to a successful conclusion for Ukraine. That's the problem.
- [17:41]
Admiral Sir Tony Radakin
So the war is escalating and the war is escalating on both sides. So last year Russia conducted over 50,000 long range drone attacks.
- [17:52]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
50,000.
- [17:53]
Admiral Sir Tony Radakin
Then you've got a lot more cruise missiles. Now you've also got ballistic missiles. The bit that is really cruel and callous is that Russia is conducting that campaign against the Ukraine population. It's failing, it's failed to break the their morale and resolve this winter. But the war's escalating and Ukraine is fighting back. Ukraine has gone deeper into Russia, but as Mr. Johnson says, that the orthodoxy in the military is that you want to take out the archer rather than the arrows. So you need to go deeper in order to relieve the battle in the close. And that's where Russia is at an advantage and Ukraine needs more help.
- [18:37]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
You've written in the last week that there should be boots on the ground, European forces in Ukraine, not to fight, but to show intent. Why? Because some people are going to hear that and think, hang on, we don't want to get involved in anything like that. That's going too far.
- [18:53]
Boris Johnson
If we're going to have a plan for boots on the ground. I may be going in advance of a lot of thinking in the UK at the moment, but if we're going to have a plan for boots on the ground after the war, after Putin has condescended to have a ceasefire, then why not do it now? Just to make this point that it is up to the Ukrainians and these people wouldn't be there in a war fighting capacity. Right. There's no logical reason that I can see why we shouldn't send some peaceful ground forces that to show our support, our constitutional support for a free, independent Ukraine.
- [19:39]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
And what do you make in recent weeks of European leaders saying that they are stepping up, they are taking on more strategic roles, they're going to have much more unified defense?
- [19:49]
Boris Johnson
I think it would be a great thing. I mean, come on. I think if Europe wants to get its act together, then that's a wonderful thing. But I don't at the moment, Laura, see much sign of it. People are obsessed about the risk of so called escalation.
- [20:04]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
And what do you mean by that?
- [20:05]
Boris Johnson
The lesson of the last four years is that the person who benefits from that nervousness is Putin.
- [20:14]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
How important has President Zelenskyy's Leadership been to the Ukrainians being able to fight
- [20:20]
Admiral Sir Tony Radakin
this far, it's been utterly pivotal. You have to galvanize your country to maintain the morale. You have to carry on with the economy running. You have to fight the war. And you also have to have this extraordinary international network to ensure that you get the support to enable you to do all of those. That. That's exhausting and it takes an emotional toll as well. So I think he's been incredible.
- [20:50]
Boris Johnson
One thing we should also be stressing what an incredible job the Ukrainians have done. I mean, is it still the case that after four years of war, Putin, who supposedly possessed the most powerful military for second most powerful on earth, has only been able to take less than 20% of Ukrainian land? And, yes, I mean, Zelenskyy has done an extraordinary job of marshaling his country and galvanizing Western support, but it's the
- [21:17]
Admiral Sir Tony Radakin
heroes and the people of Ukraine are just on that. So we should, shouldn't forget that in, in March 22nd is the peak of territory that Russia seized in Ukraine. That was about 27%. They're now at about 19 or 20%, and they gain less than 1% a year. It was less than 1% in 2025. For these enormous losses, they're now at 1.3 million, either killed or, or injured. That's. That's what's going on. That's what Ukraine is imposing on Russia. That's what is extraordinary.
- [21:55]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
Perhaps it is time for some concessions, because, as you say, Ukraine's managed to push Russia back a great, a great deal, which is remarkable given where things were a few years ago. But this war is in a dreadful stalemate. And if Western allies are not willing to step up in the way that you two would like to see, maybe it is time for him to accept some form of concessions. Can you see that happening?
- [22:18]
Admiral Sir Tony Radakin
But President Zelensky has already agreed to a, in effect, an unconditional ceasefire. It's Putin that just continues. And Putin will not change until the calculus is adjusted. It's about getting Putin to the table because President Zelensky is already there and waiting.
- [22:42]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
Does the White House change weak in forcing him to the table?
- [22:45]
Boris Johnson
Well, I think that we, as I've said, I think that we all are. And yes, I certainly think that, sadly, I think there is a delusion in the United States if they think that Putin wants peace. You know, Tony is absolutely right.
- [22:58]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
Have you told Donald Trump that?
- [22:59]
Boris Johnson
Of course, but I don't think that
- [23:03]
Laura Kuenssberg (Interviewer)
told him he's deluded.
- [23:04]
Boris Johnson
I don't think that we will fix this thing. And I don't think we will end the war by asking the Ukrainians to make, as you were saying, to make further concessions. I mean, I don't think you should underestimate how much the Ukrainians want peace and, you know, really. And how. And actually how flexible they're willing to be. And, you know, if you look at where we've got to in the negotiations and the discussions about, you know, what you do with the rest of Donetsk and how the Ukrainians could perhaps withdraw and create an economic zone, all this sort of stuff, these are incredible concessions that Zelenskyy would be asking his people to make. And he can only do it if he gets really powerful security guarantees. But the thing that's missing from all of this is Putin. You know, where is the evidence at the current rate of fire that Putin is going to agree anything like this ban? We've heard nothing from Moscow to suggest that they want to agree to such a plan. On the contrary, what they want to see, which is what they're getting, is everybody turning around saying, well, come on, Zelenskyy, what else can you offer? Honestly, I don't think the Ukrainian people will be able to offer anymore what is needed now. And this is what I've told the President, I've told everybody so far as I have any influence in this matter. My view is very simple. It's that the way to end this thing is finally, psychologically to convince Putin that he made a strategic category error in thinking that he could simply reabsorb Ukraine into the Soviet empire. That that has failed. I think you would agree with that, Tony. It has failed. That project is over. It's a question of now how he presents that failure to the Russian people. And he has the wherewithal to explain it to them in terms that I think will be politically survivable for him.
- [25:07]
Laura Kuenssberg
Thank you for listening to the interview. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the mayor of Kyiv, Vitali Klitschko, the Iranian author Azhar Nafizi, and the President of Somalia, Hassan Sheikh Mohammed. Until the next time, bye for now.
- [25:38]
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