Brandi Carlile, singer-songwriter: I believe in the separation of church and state

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The Interview – Brandi Carlile, singer-songwriter: I believe in the separation of church and state
Host: Mark Savage (BBC World Service)
Guest: Brandi Carlile
Date: November 14, 2025
Duration: ~25 minutes

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Episode Overview

This episode features a candid and emotionally rich conversation between BBC’s music correspondent Mark Savage and acclaimed American singer-songwriter Brandi Carlile. At the heart of the interview is Carlile’s evolution as an artist, her deep commitment to advocacy, especially for LGBTQ rights, and the intensely personal nature of her new album, Returning to Myself. The episode also explores mother-daughter relationships, unexpected joys and pains of parenthood, Carlile’s pivotal role in Joni Mitchell’s resurgence, and the political anxieties underpinning her latest work.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Transformative 2019 Grammys Performance

[04:05]

• Brandi reflects on finding mainstream success later than many artists, with her 2019 Grammys performance of "The Joke" as a transformative moment.
  • Quote: "I had success kind of later in life than a lot of people do...I just needed one chance to get seen like that and that people would get it." – Brandi Carlile [06:04]
• The impact was immediate, resulting in a deluge of opportunities and outreach from both fans and celebrities.
  • Quote: "I got phone calls all day long. I got thousands of text messages. So many emails from, like, famous people that I couldn’t fathom reaching out to me." – Brandi Carlile [06:13]

2. Parenthood and “You Without Me”

[06:24]

• Mark recalls witnessing Carlile’s moving performance of “You Without Me” at Glastonbury, noting the powerful audience reaction.
• The song was inspired by Carlile’s realization of her children’s growing independence.
  • Quote: "It’s soul crushing, but at the same time you’re like overwhelmed with pride...those are such funny two feelings to feel at the same time." – Brandi Carlile [07:33]
• Carlile shares stories fans told her about their own “you without me” moments—highlighting a universal parental experience.

3. Bonding with Her Mother Over The Judds

[09:19]

• As a child, her relationship with her mother was fraught; music, specifically the Judds’ concerts, became their bridge.
  • Quote: "She thought she was going to relate to me, she couldn’t...And the Judds, being a mother-daughter duo made us decide to, like, kind of cosplay the Judds." – Brandi Carlile [10:05]
• The duo's tribute performances fostered a deeper, more authentic friendship.

4. Artistic Evolution and Making Returning to Myself

[12:16]

• Carlile discusses searching for fresher musical textures while drawing on nostalgic, formative influences (e.g., her Casio keyboard and the Philadelphia soundtrack).
  • Quote: "I went into the studio with no songs...nothing but a whole bunch of feelings and some weird sense of nostalgia and a midlife crisis and one poem and came out with an album." – Brandi Carlile [14:12]
• This approach reinforced the album’s emotional immediacy and rawness.
• She found herself moved to tears, sometimes before audiences did:
  • Quote: "I’ve never been made to cry with my own lyrics before, like by myself. It’s embarrassing, but that was what happened." – Brandi Carlile [14:56]

5. Joni Mitchell: Friendship, Inspiration, and “Joni”

[16:37]

• Carlile honors her friend Joni Mitchell with a tribute song, capturing both their bond and the intimidating unpredictability of Mitchell.
  • Quote: "She’s a wild woman. She’ll drink you under the table. Yeah, she’s 83. She’ll drink you under the table." – Brandi Carlile [16:45]
• She describes nervously playing the song for Joni, waiting for her reaction.
  • Quote: "A big smile spread across her face after the first tagline of the last chorus...so she made me wait a good minute before she nodded at me and grinned like, this is great." – Brandi Carlile [17:23]

6. Advocacy, Separation of Church and State, and Personal Fears

[18:50]

• Carlile’s song "Church and State" was written in the immediate aftermath of the 2024 U.S. elections.
  • Quote: "I believe so profoundly in the separation of church and state and in the dangers of theocracy creeping into the corners of a democracy..." – Brandi Carlile [19:08]
• She discusses her fear that Supreme Court decisions could threaten same-sex marriage (Obergefell v. Hodges).
  • Quote: "For years [my daughter] has been hearing this...if this happens...that it like orphans you...I felt so ashamed for not explaining it to her." – Brandi Carlile [21:11]
• The song represents both anger and catharsis in confronting these threats.
  • Quote: "Oh God, it felt so good to get that out, all of that just trembling fear and rage just like out of my body and into that song." – Brandi Carlile [19:08]

7. AI and Music

[22:29]

• On artificial intelligence in songwriting, Carlile feels AI lacks authentic perspective:
  • Quote: "AI doesn’t have a point of view...it can only replicate it. It doesn’t have a point of view." – Brandi Carlile [23:06]
• The sole upside she sees: automatic translation of songs into multiple languages for wider accessibility.
  • Quote: "I love the idea of writing songs that everyone can understand." – Brandi Carlile [23:53]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s soul crushing, but at the same time you’re overwhelmed with pride.” – Brandi Carlile on parenthood [07:33]
• "We kind of dressed like [The Judds] and sang like them...we developed another level of friendship." [09:55]
• "I went in with nothing but a whole bunch of feelings and some weird sense of nostalgia and a midlife crisis and one poem and came out with an album." [14:12]
• "She’s a wild woman. She’ll drink you under the table...And by wild I just mean unpredictable, untamable..." (on Joni Mitchell) [16:45]
• "I believe so profoundly in the separation of church and state and in the dangers of theocracy creeping into the corners of a democracy." [19:08]
• "AI doesn’t have a point of view...it’s just a tool of synthesis." [23:06]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:20] – Fears about same-sex marriage rights in America, impulse to write “Church and State”
• [04:05] – 2019 Grammys breakthrough and career transformation
• [06:24] – Parenting, Glastonbury performance of “You Without Me”
• [09:19] – Childhood, bonding with her mother over music and The Judds
• [12:16] – Making new album with a fresh, instinctive approach
• [16:37] – Friendship and tribute to Joni Mitchell
• [18:50] – Deep dive into “Church and State,” familial and social anxieties
• [22:29] – Thoughts on artificial intelligence and the creative process

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Episode Tone and Final Thoughts

This episode is rich with warmth, vulnerability, and insight. Mark Savage’s gentle curiosity draws out candid, sometimes aching reflections from Brandi Carlile, who mingles humor, nostalgia, and activism. The show offers both music fans and the uninitiated a moving portrait of an artist shaped by her convictions, connections, and evolving creative process.

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For additional context and further conversations with influential guests, visit the BBC World Service or subscribe to The Interview on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[A]

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[A]

But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[B]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[A]

Tristan Redman in London and this is the global story.

[B]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[A]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Mark Savage, the BBC music correspondent, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC People shaping our world from all over the world.

[B]

I'm disappointed in him. A deal done four times and then you go home and you see just attack a nursing home in Kiev. I said, what the hell was that all about? I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me, but I was still 15 years old and I did not know who I was.

[A]

I love singing and so my goal was always to do better and better at it.

[B]

Today we are spending trillions on war and peanuts on peace.

[A]

For this interview, I met the American singer, songwriter, producer and performer Brandi Carlisle at her record label's offices in London. A country music icon, she's won 11 Grammy awards as well as an Oscar nomination for best Original song. You're going to hear about how a breakthrough performance at The Grammys in 2019 transformed her career and saw her go on to work with Elton John and Miley Cyrus and play the iconic Pyramid stage at the Glastonbury Festival. A high profile advocate for the LGBTQ community, she tells me about the impact her sexuality had on the relationship with her mother and how they eventually bonded over country music mother and daughter duo the Judds, going on to form their own tribute act. Brandi Carlisle was also the key to the rehabilitation of singer Joni Mitchell after she suffered a near fatal brain aneurysm. Brandy organized Intimate music nights that she called Joni jams to help the musician reconnect with her songs. Now she's written a tribute to her friend and shares the nerves she felt the first time she played it to the folk legend. As she releases her eighth album, Returning to Myself, she reveals that for the first time she went into the recording studio without any songs prepared. Instead, she says she had nothing but a whole bunch of feelings. The result is a deeply personal record covering everything from her childhood to parenthood and politics, including her fears that the ruling that recognized same sex marriage could come under threat in today's America.

[B]

It's essentially been in the back of my mind as a deep seated fear for a long time. And when I saw that election night unfolding, it just came to the forefront of my mind in a way that like I had to sing about. Oh God, it felt so good to get that out, all of that just trembling fear and rage just like out of my body and into that song. I believe so profoundly in the separation of church and state and in the dangers of theocracy creeping into the corners of a democracy or always at the edge of my thinking.

[A]

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Brandi Carlisle.

[B]

I had success kind of later in life than a lot of people do in terms of like, you know, I got that moment on the Grammys where I got to go on and sing the Joke. And then from that point on everything was different for me, the size of the shows I was playing. But I think the most like stark contrast was that I had overnight I had opportunities, I just had this river of opportunity that was just kind of flowing into my life and I didn't know how long it was going to last. And so I said yes to everything. And then when I wasn't saying yes, I was brainstorming other projects, how I could form side bands, how I could do this collaborations. I wonder if this person would meet me. I wonder if I could produce a record on this person. And I just, I wanted to use that momentum in my life. I just kind of woke up one day and knew I was at the end of it and that yes, the opportunities might not keep coming one day, maybe the phone won't ring, but I don't want to miss like out on my kids childhood or like on the part of my life when my body and mind are most in alignment, you know, I don't want to just be so busy and so fragmented in my mind that I can't singularly focus.

[A]

And I guess like I remember Watching that performance in the middle of the night in the uk when we're covering the Grammy Awards and every couple of years, there's one performance where you sit up and you go, oh, wow, this is. There's something happening here. Were you aware of that feeling in the room itself?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I was really aware of it. And I was aware of the possibility of it going into it, because it wasn't a kid. You know, I'd already been on the road for so long for so, so, so long and played my music in so many different scenarios that I knew what the opportunity was and I knew I was really ready for it. Like, you know, I knew I know how to plug in a guitar and stand on stage and sing a song with from my toes to the top of my head.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I felt like that's all I had to do. I just needed one chance to get seen like that and that people would get it.

[A]

Did people comment on it immediately afterwards?

[B]

I got phone calls all day long. I got thousands of text messages. So many emails from, like, famous people that I couldn't fathom reaching out to me and everything, you know?

[A]

And the reason I wanted to ask about the Grammys is that I felt the exact same thing standing in front of the Pyramid stage this summer when you played you without me. And, you know, it was, what, just after lunchtime. And that crowd is not a quiet crowd, but they went silent throughout that song. And I cried. There were other people around me crying, parents in particular. And obviously, it's an incredibly special song to you, and it's about your daughter. Right.

[B]

It was based on one of those moments that you have with your children where you think you know them. Maybe you even think on some level they're a part of you or that they are a version of you or whatever. Yeah. And. And then one day something happens. And it could be a big thing or it could be a really small thing where you see them and they've departed you. They're just doing something independent of you. And it's like. It's the voice they're using. It's how they move in their body. It's what they're declaring. But there's something about them that is just not. Not of you or the way that you raise them or taking a check.

[A]

It's not nature or nurture. It's them, an individual. Yeah.

[B]

And you can't step in. You can't step in. You're not allowed. It's like behind the Veil. And I've started to see Those moments and it's just like. It's soul crushing, but at the same time you're like overwhelmed with pride. And there such a funny two feelings to feel at the same time that they had to be a song that everybody can understand. And ever since put that song out, the you without me stories that I've heard from people are just like my favorite part.

[A]

Is there one that sticks with you?

[B]

There are so many. I mean, my favorite one that I heard recently was this guy that told me that he was dancing on a dance floor with his daughter. It was like a big, like work thing. And there was actually a really cool dj. It was Mark Ronson and it was this big cool thing happening. And his daughter, who's like 9, found a group of girls that were 14, 15 and dancing. And she joined the girls and he said he was watching her watch her body and try to move like them and become aware of her clothes and. And not want him near her. And he was like, that's a you without me moment. When you just. You. You're so afraid. You want to step in. You want to make sure she doesn't get her feelings hurt, but you're also so proud that she'. And, you know, and you've got to stand outside the bubble and watch this moment happen. But I think that those transition into huge risks that our kids take into their teenage years. The fact that they're gonna leave us really soon and. Yeah.

[A]

What about you? When you were growing up? Was there because your mum sang? I guess so you must have seen live music. But is there opportunity to see other things?

[B]

What do you mean other things? Like, other things?

[A]

Like other bands? Other. Yeah.

[B]

I loved going to. We went to a few country concerts when I was a kid. Like, actually my first three concerts were the Judds.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

You know the Judds? Yeah. I saw them when I was like 9, 10 and 12.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. And. And it was amazing. And it was actually really good for me and my mom because we had a bit of an awkward relationship. Yeah.

[A]

In what way?

[B]

Well, I think I was already like pretty gay.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Even then. And I think my mom was just young and didn't really know. Had never met a gay person. I'd never met a gay person.

[A]

No. And there was so little context at that point on how to navigate that world for an adult parent or for you as a 10, 12 year old.

[B]

All the way. She thought she was going to relate to me. She couldn't. I didn't want to do makeup or learn to shave my legs or have long hair. And she was just like, what do I do with this child? I guess I take her to see music. And the Judds, being a mother daughter duo made us decide to, like, kind of cosplay the Judds. Like, we started. We kind of dressed like them and sang like them and it just. And we developed another level of friendship based on that. So it's. Their juds are kind of important.

[A]

You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. People shaping our world from all over the world.

[B]

America is changing and so is the world.

[A]

But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[B]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, dc.

[A]

I'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is the global story.

[B]

Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[A]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. For this episode of the interview, I'm speaking to Brandi Carlisle. I met with her at her record label offices in London, where her guitar case was carefully propped up against the wall. She never lets it out of her sight. We bonded quickly over two slightly strange pieces of shared history. Both of us surv meningitis as children, and at school, we were each teased for looking like the Wonder Years actor Fred Savage. Well, with the ice broken, Brandy opened up about all aspects of her life and her career. Let's return to my conversation with Brandi Carlisle. In terms of making this particular album, it feels like there's a lot of new or different colours that you're using by instrumentally, the way that you sing, nothing like, nothing off putting, but it feels like you're. You're trying out new stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what was that process like? How did that happen? By accident or were you searching for that?

[B]

I was searching for it and it came naturally because of a lot of this stuff that I'm recalling about my life is this is the same thing was happening to me musically. I was revisiting things that I used to lay on my bedroom for cry to, like the Philadelphia soundtrack and. And just kind of. I put myself back in that single wide mobile home. And, you know, my first instrument was a Casio keyboard from Toys R Us when I was 12 and I had to teach myself to play piano. And one of the best ways to teach yourself how to play piano is to put your keyboard on like a synth setting. This is so funny because I've actually never thought of this has never occurred to me. I haven't said this before, so this is like exactly what you were just talking about. And I got this keyboard and I had the Philadelphia sound rack and I would put my keyboard on the synthesizer of play Streets of Philadelphia by Bruce Springsteen. It's like falling in love with Elton John, demanding a keyboard and then realizing I was nowhere near as talented enough to learn Elton John's song songs. So switching into synth and learning to play piano by holding synth chords. Which is probably the reason why when I started doing that on this record, I felt 13, 14. And it made me write things differently and do things differently because, you know, I went into the studio with no songs.

[A]

Which is unusual for you, right?

[B]

Yes, really unusual. I've always just worked my songs like clay. Play them on the road, test them in front of audiences, change verses, cut bridges, everything just based on the way a crowd reacts to me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is this working? Read a room, Read a room. Like, I know how to read a room. I'm an entertainer. And then I would take that hard earned room, read material home, practice it. Let's not waste our money by not knowing what we're doing when we get in the studio. And this album was not like that. I went in with nothing but a whole bunch of feelings and some weird sense of nostalgia and a midlife crisis and one poem and came out with an album.

[A]

Did writing it in that way give you almost a shortcut to those feelings? Like, because you were right up against them and you weren't refining them or testing them?

[B]

No, they were just coming out and I had this huge lump in my throat the whole time. I was embarrassed to sing the songs in front of everybody. I thought I would cry. I did. Sometimes I just struggled with it in ways that are just like really new, you know, When I finished by the Way, I Forgive youe, those songs were deeply personal too. But when I took them out on the road and played them for people, that's when I started to get emotional because I'd see other people in the audience crying and stuff like that. Like, I've never liked Might been made to cry with my own lyrics before, like by myself. It's embarrassing, but it was like that was what. That was what happened. They were just coming out and they were mostly old childhood memories as they pertain to now.

[A]

And I guess there's a thing that's maybe happening there where that young girl was feeling like an outsider and unsure of herself. And now that you've got to a place where you have Some stability and you've got a sense of who you are. You can kind of solve those wounds for her. And she's still inside you.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a little like, you know, when you're growing older because you're no longer embarrassed of your youth. And then this one day you look at it and you think of yourself as one of your kids or something and like, yeah, that's where I'm at right now. I guess it's not very hip, but, you know, that's what 44 looks like for me also. I never really have been allowed to be hip, so. No, no.

[A]

You know, and I guess that takes us to the song Joanie, because there's a line in there where you say, she's a wild woman and she makes me feel tame.

[B]

No. Yeah, she is a wild woman. She'll drink you under the table. Yeah, she's 83. She'll drink you under the table.

[A]

That's cool, I think.

[B]

Cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She loves Cadillac margaritas and plain blackjack. And she is a wild woman. And by wild I just name unpredictable, untamable, unknowable sometimes. And it's amazing.

[A]

And you say in the song that she doesn't suffer fools and that she won't mince her words. So there must have come a point where you had to play her this song and, like, waiting on tenterhooks for the reaction.

[B]

I drove up to her house and she was sitting at her desk in her bedroom and looking at an old fashioned mirror, putting butterfly clips in her hair as Joni Mitchell does, and just listen to the song with this furrowed brow, just not looking at me and not reacting or whatever. And I didn't know if she would like it or if she would get it or it's also. It's not in time. And she's really rhythmically stringent, so. But she just. THIS big smile spread across her face after the first tagline of the last chorus. So she made me wait a good minute before she. For she nodded at me and grinned like, this is great.

[A]

That must have been such a relief. Yeah, yeah. Because presumably it doesn't go on the album if she says no.

[B]

No, it was on. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

I was doing it.

[A]

Good for you.

[B]

Yeah. It's tribute. Yeah, it's a tribute. But whether or not she saw it as a tribute was questionable because she had to be in on the joke. You know, it's like when I. When I tell you I love you and you tell me okay, you know.

[A]

I love that life.

[B]

We've never talked about that, but every time I leave, I'm like, love you, John. She goes, okay. I think the thing I was most nervous about playing for her is that you're not supposed to get Joni Mitchell. She doesn't want to be like.

[A]

Understood.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you assumed that you do or you profess to, I think you might get an eyebrow race that nobody wants.

[A]

I want to ask about both church and state and war with time. Church and State you recorded on the night of the election.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's obviously a very deeply felt song, and you're quoting Jefferson in it. What was the set of circumstances that led you to that outpouring?

[B]

I mean, I knew when Ruth Bader Ginsburg died that there was a possibility that the Supreme Court of the United States would overturn Oberfell and, you know, betray that precedent because they overturned Roe. And I have always been afraid of what that means for me and my family and my kids. You know, my wife, she's from here. It's essentially been in the back of my mind as a deep seated fear for a long time. And when I saw that election night unfolding, it just came to the forefront of my mind in a way that, like, I had to sing about. The band was there. It was really the only time that we just, like, plugged in and played a song as a band and started like that was the most traditional construction of a song. And, oh, God, it felt so good to get that out. Yeah. All of that just trembling fear and rage just like, out of my body and into that song. I believe so profoundly in the separation of church and state and in the dangers of theocracy creeping into the corners of a democracy or always at the edge of my thinking. And actually, I had a terrible experience recently where my oldest, Evangeline, she's 11, and I've been talking about, like I said, since Reef Bader Ginsburg died. That's the other thing. I figure when you have kids, it's like you and your spouse are having conversations and you think they're not listening. And they're listening.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're drawing their own congregates and they can't get involved and answer the questions because they're not asking them, because they don't want you to know they're listening. And so I had been talking about it for years, and so for years she's been hearing this, and she says the other night at the dinner table, she goes, hey. She's trying to make light of it all. She goes, hey, you guys, if. If they overturn gay marriage, she goes, we can just get in your boat, right, mom? And she, quote, or she says, quote, bebop on up to Canada. So I'm like, like, we don't have to be bop anywhere. Like, you know. And Catherine's like, well, if we went anywhere, we'd go back to my home or whatever. And then Elijah goes, I don't want to go to Canada or anywhere. And I go, no, no, no, we guys, you know. And before I could say anything, my oldest, like, snaps at my youngest and goes, elijah, it's better than not having a mommy or a mama. And I was like, oh, for years you thought that if this happens, like we've been saying we think it's going to. That it like orphans. You. Yeah, that you don't have parents. And you have not been asking me any questions about that. You've just been carrying this around for years, that if this thing happens, you're, like, alone. And it was just. I felt so ashamed for not explaining it to her. And I felt so angry about something that archaic and anti. Created even being a possibility in the country I live in. Yeah. Let alone legitimately on the horizon.

[A]

There's a lot of power and anger, I think, and that's what we're seeing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of power and anger you can hear in that song.

[A]

Well, that's true, I guess. Yeah. You got to get angry back sometimes, don't you?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

On a. Well, maybe not a lighter note. A question about AI. Do you feel that artists should be transparent if they're using AI as part of their creative process?

[B]

I think it depends. On what. On what context. I think that artists that I'm listening to, you could tell they had used it. But in terms of, you know, pop and electronic music, I. I don't have an opinion. I think I. I fall on the side of the line that, like, Rick Rubin is on, where I. I agree with him that it doesn't. AI doesn't have a point of view.

[A]

And your album is telling personal stories, so how can. How can computer ever do that?

[B]

Yeah, it can only replicate it. It doesn't have a point of view. It's just a. You know, it's just a tool of synthesis. It's just a data analyzer and consolidator. And data comes from the content, comes from something or someone with a point of view. Doesn't help one. So I find it uninteresting in every way. The only interesting thing that's ever been presented to me in terms of, as an excuse for the possibility around AI that I like is the possibility of being able to have a song translated in multiple languages. Singer's voice isn't that interesting.

[A]

That is nice. Isn't it cool?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The thing I like about it, the thing I like though is, is that Americans, we can get so landlocked and so nationalist that we forget that other languages and other cultures exist. And I love the idea of writing songs that everyone can understand.

[A]

Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the cycling legend Sir Bradley Wiggins, US President Donald Trump and education activist Malala Youhshafzai. Until the next time, goodbye. For now.

[B]

America is changing and so is the world.

[A]

But what's happening in America is isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[B]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[A]

Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global Story.

[B]

Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[A]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.