Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Interview (BBC World Service)
Episode: Brazilian President, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva: I have no relationship with President Trump
Date: September 21, 2025
Host/Interviewer: Ione Wells
Guest: Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, President of Brazil

Overview

In this rich and candid conversation, BBC's Ione Wells interviews Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva at his official residence in Brasília. Lula, now in his third term, reflects on key issues shaping Brazil and international relations: from the impact of US tariffs and his non-relationship with Donald Trump, to Brazil’s stance on global diplomacy, accusations faced by political adversaries, climate leadership, and the challenge of upholding democracy in a turbulent world. The discussion is characterized by Lula's trademark passion, veering from fiery criticism to pride in Brazil’s achievements and steadfast defense of democracy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Democracy and Bolsonaro’s Conviction

• [03:42–07:10]
  Lula comments on the conviction of former President Jair Bolsonaro, made in response to his attempts to undermine Brazilian democracy and allegedly plot violent acts (including against Lula himself and Supreme Court members).

  • He emphasizes there’s nothing to celebrate in another’s conviction but stresses the importance of upholding the rule of law.
  • Lula draws a sharp distinction between his own imprisonment (“no evidence, only undetermined facts”) and Bolsonaro’s conviction (“concrete, hard evidence”).

  Notable Quote (Lula, 05:34):

  “They tried a coup d'état… and they went against the Constitution of Brazil and hurting the rule of law. They tried to network my death and plot my death, and also the plotting the death of the justice of the Supreme Court… They planned a bomb in the airport in Brazil.”

2. Relationship with Donald Trump and US Tariffs

• [07:10–12:34]
  The interview probes the strained trade relationship between Brazil and the US, and Lula’s lack of direct communication with Donald Trump.

  • Lula accuses Trump of implementing US tariffs on Brazilian goods for political, not trade, reasons—cutting Brazil out of the loop and harming not only Brazil but also American consumers.
  • He clarifies he has “no relationship” with Trump and has never spoken with him, despite attempts (via ministers) to initiate dialogue. He praises previous relationships with US presidents (Bush, Obama, Biden).
  • Lula insists on Brazil’s sovereignty and willingness to negotiate—except under unilaterally imposed conditions.

  Notable Quotes:
  (Lula, 07:17):

  “The charges and the statements for which President Trump put a super over tariff on Brazil and impose a tariff, they're eminently political. There's nothing on the trade side…”

  (Lula, 11:48):

  “There's no relationship. I had relationships with our former US Presidents… with President Bush, President Biden, with Obama… But I don't have any relationship with Trump.”

3. Stance on International Diplomacy: UN, Allies, and Conflicts

• [02:50–03:36; 15:56–19:29] Lula advocates for a reformed and more representative United Nations Security Council, arguing the current structure no longer reflects global realities.

  • Calls for inclusion of Brazil, India, Germany, Japan, and African nations as permanent members.
  • Stresses the UN has lost its ability to function as a mediator for peace in crises such as Ukraine and Israel-Gaza due to lack of representation and unilateral actions by permanent members.

  Notable Quote (Lula, 02:50):

  “The UN today has nothing to do with the UN that was created in 1945… Where is Brazil, India, Germany, Japan? Where are the African countries? The UN cannot continue with just five permanent members.”

• Human Rights & Alleged Double Standards:

  • When pressed on relationships with Russia, China, Iran—countries accused of undemocratic practices—Lula consistently returns to the necessity of global representation and negotiation rather than public condemnation.

  (Lula, 16:16):

  “We have to include other countries… The world geography has changed. Geopolitics has changed too.”

4. Position on Russia/Ukraine Conflict and Middle East

• [18:07–19:29; 19:38]
  Lula emphasizes Brazil’s early condemnation of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. He denies Brazil finances the war (though they buy Russian oil, as do others, he says) and blames UN’s failure for the ongoing war.

  • He equates this with the inaction in Israel-Gaza, referring to Israel’s actions as “a genocide,” and advocates for a two-state solution.

  Notable Quote (Lula, 18:07):

  “Brazil was the first country to condemn the occupation of Ukraine by Russia. Brazil doesn’t finance Russia. We buy oil from Russia because we need to buy oil, as China needs to buy and India has to buy oil...”

  Notable Quote (Lula, 19:19):

  “If you think it’s a war, I don’t believe it’s a war. I think it’s a genocide… That’s why I defend this two-state solution.”

5. Environmental Leadership & Oil Drilling in Amazon

• [20:36–23:18]
  Lula defends Brazil’s decision to host COP30 in the Amazon and the country's clean energy credentials.

  • Justifies ongoing oil exploration as necessary for national development; claims Brazil’s practices are safer and cleaner than other nations’.
  • Asserts Brazil’s energy matrix is already the “cleanest in the world” (90% of electricity from clean sources), and the country is a leader in renewable energy.

  Notable Quote (Lula, 20:50):

  “COP was chosen to be held in the Amazon region because I want that the world, instead of talking about the Amazon region, they get to know truly the Amazon region.”

  (Lula, 22:29):

  “Brazil has the energy matrix that is the cleanest in the world. 90% of the electrical power in Brazil is clean source of energy… We are making the greatest revolution in the energy transition better than any other country.”

6. 2026 Presidential Election & Lula’s Future

• [23:18–24:42]
  Asked if he will run for president again at age 80, Lula says the decision will depend on his health and political context, not personal ambition.

  Notable Quote (Lula, 23:38):

  “I don’t know if I’m going to run because this is not the moment to decide. Who will decide if I’m going to run for the president? Basically two factors…my health situation and my party and the political convenience if I’m going to win the elections or not…”

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Freedom and Rule of Law (05:40):
  “Freedom of speech does not give you the right to offend, to attack, to preach hatred through the networks, through the social media.”—Lula
• On Trump’s Communication Style (09:22):
  “He just published [the tariffs] in his portal in his social media. And I found out by the newspapers in Brazil.”—Lula
• On Sovereignty (07:35):
  “What we cannot negotiate is the Brazilian sovereignty. Our democracy and our sovereignty are not negotiable. They're not a negotiation.”—Lula

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Lula’s background and political journey: 01:44–02:50
• On UN reform and global diplomacy: 02:50–03:36; 15:56–17:52
• Bolsonaro’s conviction and democracy: 03:42–07:10
• Trump, tariffs, and US relations: 07:10–13:48
• Russia vs. Trump, personal diplomatic relationships: 13:36–14:07
• On Russia, Ukraine, and the UN: 18:07–19:29
• Climate leadership, Amazon, and oil drilling: 19:29–23:18
• 2026 election question and closing reflections: 23:18–24:42

Conclusion

Throughout the interview, President Lula da Silva positions himself as a defender of multilateralism, democracy, and Brazilian sovereignty. He projects Brazil as a global leader in clean energy and diplomacy, while defending his government’s decisions and criticizing unilateral action—particularly from the United States under Donald Trump. The conversation reveals Lula’s complex views on justice, global order, and leadership in a rapidly changing world.