Brazilian President, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva: I have no relationship with President Trump

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Interview (BBC World Service)
Episode: Brazilian President, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva: I have no relationship with President Trump
Date: September 21, 2025
Host/Interviewer: Ione Wells
Guest: Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, President of Brazil

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Overview

In this rich and candid conversation, BBC's Ione Wells interviews Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva at his official residence in Brasília. Lula, now in his third term, reflects on key issues shaping Brazil and international relations: from the impact of US tariffs and his non-relationship with Donald Trump, to Brazil’s stance on global diplomacy, accusations faced by political adversaries, climate leadership, and the challenge of upholding democracy in a turbulent world. The discussion is characterized by Lula's trademark passion, veering from fiery criticism to pride in Brazil’s achievements and steadfast defense of democracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Democracy and Bolsonaro’s Conviction

• [03:42–07:10]
  Lula comments on the conviction of former President Jair Bolsonaro, made in response to his attempts to undermine Brazilian democracy and allegedly plot violent acts (including against Lula himself and Supreme Court members).

  • He emphasizes there’s nothing to celebrate in another’s conviction but stresses the importance of upholding the rule of law.
  • Lula draws a sharp distinction between his own imprisonment (“no evidence, only undetermined facts”) and Bolsonaro’s conviction (“concrete, hard evidence”).

  Notable Quote (Lula, 05:34):

  “They tried a coup d'état… and they went against the Constitution of Brazil and hurting the rule of law. They tried to network my death and plot my death, and also the plotting the death of the justice of the Supreme Court… They planned a bomb in the airport in Brazil.”

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2. Relationship with Donald Trump and US Tariffs

• [07:10–12:34]
  The interview probes the strained trade relationship between Brazil and the US, and Lula’s lack of direct communication with Donald Trump.

  • Lula accuses Trump of implementing US tariffs on Brazilian goods for political, not trade, reasons—cutting Brazil out of the loop and harming not only Brazil but also American consumers.
  • He clarifies he has “no relationship” with Trump and has never spoken with him, despite attempts (via ministers) to initiate dialogue. He praises previous relationships with US presidents (Bush, Obama, Biden).
  • Lula insists on Brazil’s sovereignty and willingness to negotiate—except under unilaterally imposed conditions.

  Notable Quotes:
  (Lula, 07:17):

  “The charges and the statements for which President Trump put a super over tariff on Brazil and impose a tariff, they're eminently political. There's nothing on the trade side…”

  (Lula, 11:48):

  “There's no relationship. I had relationships with our former US Presidents… with President Bush, President Biden, with Obama… But I don't have any relationship with Trump.”

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3. Stance on International Diplomacy: UN, Allies, and Conflicts

• [02:50–03:36; 15:56–19:29] Lula advocates for a reformed and more representative United Nations Security Council, arguing the current structure no longer reflects global realities.

  • Calls for inclusion of Brazil, India, Germany, Japan, and African nations as permanent members.
  • Stresses the UN has lost its ability to function as a mediator for peace in crises such as Ukraine and Israel-Gaza due to lack of representation and unilateral actions by permanent members.

  Notable Quote (Lula, 02:50):

  “The UN today has nothing to do with the UN that was created in 1945… Where is Brazil, India, Germany, Japan? Where are the African countries? The UN cannot continue with just five permanent members.”

• Human Rights & Alleged Double Standards:

  • When pressed on relationships with Russia, China, Iran—countries accused of undemocratic practices—Lula consistently returns to the necessity of global representation and negotiation rather than public condemnation.

  (Lula, 16:16):

  “We have to include other countries… The world geography has changed. Geopolitics has changed too.”

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4. Position on Russia/Ukraine Conflict and Middle East

• [18:07–19:29; 19:38]
  Lula emphasizes Brazil’s early condemnation of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. He denies Brazil finances the war (though they buy Russian oil, as do others, he says) and blames UN’s failure for the ongoing war.

  • He equates this with the inaction in Israel-Gaza, referring to Israel’s actions as “a genocide,” and advocates for a two-state solution.

  Notable Quote (Lula, 18:07):

  “Brazil was the first country to condemn the occupation of Ukraine by Russia. Brazil doesn’t finance Russia. We buy oil from Russia because we need to buy oil, as China needs to buy and India has to buy oil...”

  Notable Quote (Lula, 19:19):

  “If you think it’s a war, I don’t believe it’s a war. I think it’s a genocide… That’s why I defend this two-state solution.”

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5. Environmental Leadership & Oil Drilling in Amazon

• [20:36–23:18]
  Lula defends Brazil’s decision to host COP30 in the Amazon and the country's clean energy credentials.

  • Justifies ongoing oil exploration as necessary for national development; claims Brazil’s practices are safer and cleaner than other nations’.
  • Asserts Brazil’s energy matrix is already the “cleanest in the world” (90% of electricity from clean sources), and the country is a leader in renewable energy.

  Notable Quote (Lula, 20:50):

  “COP was chosen to be held in the Amazon region because I want that the world, instead of talking about the Amazon region, they get to know truly the Amazon region.”

  (Lula, 22:29):

  “Brazil has the energy matrix that is the cleanest in the world. 90% of the electrical power in Brazil is clean source of energy… We are making the greatest revolution in the energy transition better than any other country.”

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6. 2026 Presidential Election & Lula’s Future

• [23:18–24:42]
  Asked if he will run for president again at age 80, Lula says the decision will depend on his health and political context, not personal ambition.

  Notable Quote (Lula, 23:38):

  “I don’t know if I’m going to run because this is not the moment to decide. Who will decide if I’m going to run for the president? Basically two factors…my health situation and my party and the political convenience if I’m going to win the elections or not…”

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Freedom and Rule of Law (05:40):
  “Freedom of speech does not give you the right to offend, to attack, to preach hatred through the networks, through the social media.”—Lula
• On Trump’s Communication Style (09:22):
  “He just published [the tariffs] in his portal in his social media. And I found out by the newspapers in Brazil.”—Lula
• On Sovereignty (07:35):
  “What we cannot negotiate is the Brazilian sovereignty. Our democracy and our sovereignty are not negotiable. They're not a negotiation.”—Lula

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Lula’s background and political journey: 01:44–02:50
• On UN reform and global diplomacy: 02:50–03:36; 15:56–17:52
• Bolsonaro’s conviction and democracy: 03:42–07:10
• Trump, tariffs, and US relations: 07:10–13:48
• Russia vs. Trump, personal diplomatic relationships: 13:36–14:07
• On Russia, Ukraine, and the UN: 18:07–19:29
• Climate leadership, Amazon, and oil drilling: 19:29–23:18
• 2026 election question and closing reflections: 23:18–24:42

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Conclusion

Throughout the interview, President Lula da Silva positions himself as a defender of multilateralism, democracy, and Brazilian sovereignty. He projects Brazil as a global leader in clean energy and diplomacy, while defending his government’s decisions and criticizing unilateral action—particularly from the United States under Donald Trump. The conversation reveals Lula’s complex views on justice, global order, and leadership in a rapidly changing world.

Transcript

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[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

You don't look like.

[BBC Interviewer]

Please. I'll take that as a compliment.

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[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

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[BBC South America Correspondent Ione Wells]

Hello, I'm ione Wells, the BBC's South America correspondent and this is the interview from the BBC World. The best conversations coming out of the BBC People shaping our world from all over the world.

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

There have been so many disagreements between me and my family. Putting on a show that is what it means to be Lady Gaga. Only the things that you can't solve with government and private sector is where you bring philanthropy in. There's no place in the world where women are equal. Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy.

[BBC South America Correspondent Ione Wells]

For this interview I met the Brazilian President Luis Ignacio Lula da Silva at his presidential residence in Brasilia. In office since 2023, having previously served as President between 2003 and 2011, the 79 year old's journey to the very top of the world stage began with humble beginnings as a shoeshine boy whose parents were tenant farmers. After the military coup of 1964 in Brazil, a 19 year old Lula found employment in a metalworks. It was there that he joined the industry's trade union and just a decade later he became a full time trade unionist and eventually president of the union itself. He would regularly clash with the country's military government and was jailed for organizing worker strikes. He used this experience to help set up the Workers Party in order to move into politics, a decision that would see him eventually rise to become the country's president at the turn of the millennium. In this exclusive, wide ranging interview, he discusses the impact of US tariffs and how he has never talked to President Trump, as well as oil drilling in the Amazon, the conviction of his predecessor and the current state of international diplomacy.

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

I want that the United nations should represent the geography, the world geography of the 21st century. The UN today has nothing to do with the UN that was created in 1945. Or better saying the UN that was created in 1945 has nothing to do with the situation today. We have to include other countries. Where is Brazil in the UN Security Council? India, Germany, Japan. Where are the African countries in the Security Council of the un? So the UN cannot continue with just five permanent members. And it's necessary that the UN should have more strength, solve conflicts. If it doesn't have strength, it will not have an influence in any conflict. They can't have any influence in the Ukraine, war in Israel and Gaza.

[BBC South America Correspondent Ione Wells]

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Brazilian President Luis Inacio Lula da Silva.

[BBC Interviewer]

President, thank you for speaking with BBC News today. I want to start with the news of Jabal Scenario's conviction. Did you celebrate him being handed a 27 year prison sentence?

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

No, I believe that it's not to be celebrated. The trial that was made by the Supreme Court against a man that made many mistakes. What is really important for people to think clearly is that he was not a man or three men that were on trial. We're talking about people that had irregular behavior that could be there was a mistake, what they made. And they went against the Constitution of Brazil and hurting the the rule of law. They tried a coup d'. Etat. They tried to network my death and plot my death, and also the plotting the death of the justice of the Supreme Court. And they planned a bomb in the airport in Brazil. These people developed a lot of disorder in Brazil to avoid my inauguration. So he said, I'm trying because of the evidence that were raised. I don't need to celebrate because Brazil has its longest period of democratic regime in a continuous fashion. This is what we see today. And we need to enjoy democracy, to love democracy, right to go and come, to respect the others. Freedom of speech does not give you the right to offend, to attack, to preach hatred through the networks, through the social media. And so he was on judgment by the crimes he committed. So I would prefer that no one had committed a crime and he had all the right to defend himself. He had the innocence presumption and he was condemned and convicted. And I hope that he continues to present his defense and try to prove that he has no guilt, because till now he's the one that's guilty. For the attempt of a coup d' etat in this country to plot the death of the elected president, of the Vice president that was elected, and of the Chief justice of the Supreme Court and bringing a lot of evil to.

[BBC Interviewer]

The country, the victim of the biggest legal lie. These are not words of Jair Bolsonaro or of President Trump. These were your words after you were exonerated following a prison sentence for corruption. Do you agree with Bolsonaro at all that the judiciary in this country can be political at times?

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

I believe that he was judged by a crime that he committed. There's no politics in this. There's no politics. I was put on trial without having the right to, to defend myself. I stayed 580 days in prison until today. There's no proof. And the sentence that they gave me is that I committed a crime called undetermined facts. This showed not good faith. Now, in the case of the President today, you have concrete hard evidence. You have plea bargains, you have concrete documents written by them themselves. So there's no way for you to try to say that this is a political game. No, this is a procedural judicial procedure for lack of respect of our Constitution to try to destroy the democratic rule of law in our country with all the possible evidence and with the images, the things that they did wrong. And so there's no politics. There's this justice.

[BBC Interviewer]

You agree with Donald Trump that it's important to bring back American jobs and industry, but you think tariffs are the wrong answer. What's the right answer?

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

Well, that the charges and the statements for which President Trump put a super over tariff on Brazil and impose a tariff, they're eminently political. There's nothing on trade side from the trade viewpoint. The US in the last 15 years have enjoyed $410 billion of trade surplus with Brazil. So he took this action due to a political case on Bolsonaro, which I regret profoundly that the President of another country does not take into account the necessity to respect the sovereignty of another country and the country. And he has to respect the judicial courts and the Supreme Court of the country. But we'll have to wait a lot still to see what's going to happen. I have the conviction that some things are causing damage to and harm to the US because inflation will go up, because coffee will become more expensive in the U.S. meat will become more expensive in the U.S. and the American people will pay for the mistakes that President Trump is incurring its relationship with the solution. Instead, though, for any kind of conflict, the best alternative is to sit around a negotiation table and negotiate. Is it from the trade viewpoint? There is negotiation now. If it's the economic viewpoint, we can still negotiate. And if it's the taxation issues, we can negotiate. What we cannot negotiate is the Brazilian sovereignty. Our democracy and our sovereignty are not negotiable. They're not a negotiation.

[BBC Interviewer]

David, you've written articles which you say are to start a dialogue with Donald Trump. Why not just pick up the phone to him?

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

Because they don't want to talk.

[BBC Interviewer]

But he said you can call him any time.

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

But they don't want to talk. What I'm saying for four months that we're willing to talk. I've been saying that it's important to remember that when President Trump communicated the taxation on imposing tarps on Brazil, he didn't communicate in a civilized manner to heads of states.

[BBC Interviewer]

Why not try pick up the phone to him?

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

He just published them in his portal in his social media. And I found out by the newspapers in Brazil. And so I have my finance minister, I have my minister of Industry, Development and commerce, I have my foreign affairs ministers trying to talk with an American negotiators and no one manages to talk because they do not want to talk. They do not want to talk. They don't want multilateralism, they want unilateralism. And so when they want to talk, whenever they wish to talk, we're ready to talk. And so I have my vice president, I have my foreign affairs minister and my finance minister ready, willing to talk now. Whenever he wants to talk, I'll be ready.

[BBC Interviewer]

President, can I just confirm one point with you? President Trump has said he's happy to talk anytime. Can I just confirm, have you tried to and he's just not picking up or have you not tried to call?

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

I never tried that call because he never wanted to have a conversation. One thing is to talk to the press and another thing is no one tried to talk with Brazil. What I'm saying to you is that the information on the tariffs I received by the media, not even my foreign affairs ministry received any communique and neither my industry and commerce ministry received any official community care. And the tariffs just came simply like that. And who doesn't want a dialogue with conversation not only with me, but with nobody. And so we tried to make a contact many times. We had many meetings and we had many meetings with the US and on May 16, we sent a letter demanding a response response of the negotiations that were already underway.

[BBC Interviewer]

So to confirm, the reason you haven't tried to call is because he didn't try to call before imposing the tariffs. Is that correct?

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

The reason that we did not call is that the Americans do not want to talk. They believe that they can make their decisions, publish in a newspaper and that's it. And then the responsibility comes over our shoulder. No, what we're trying to do is the follow. We start, we built a case at the WTO. Now we're presenting another case on section 301. And we will do reciprocity. And when we leave, we should apply the law of raw plasticity. Maybe after that all that, we can sit around a negotiation table.

[BBC Interviewer]

In a few words, how would you describe your current relationship with President Trump?

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

There's no relationship. I had a lot of relationship with our former US Presidents. I had good relationships with President Bush, President Biden with Obama. I had relationship with former American presidents, with the UK prime ministers in the European Union. I have excellent relations with China, with Ukraine, with Venezuela, with Bolivia, with all the countries in the world. Brazil has no litigation whatsoever. With any country in the world. We have no litigation. We do not want litigation with any country.

[BBC Interviewer]

Many nations who and leaders who disagree with Donald Trump politically have still built relationships with him. Do you regret that it might have been irresponsible not to, given the situation we're in now.

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

Let me say something. The problem of the US Sovereignty, it's their problem. I can't give hunches on President Trump's relations with presidents and leaders of other countries. What I'm concerned is that our relationship with Brazil, with the U.S. we have 201 years of diplomatic relations with the U.S. and what I think is strange is that the president instead, in a civilized way, talk with Brazil. He decided to invent a political story. He decided to invent untruth in terms of the trade deficit. And then he said that Bolsonaro is being persecuted, that there's no democracy in Brazil. Brazil has a lot of democracy. We have many articles that are being published today in the US Showing that Brazil is serving as an example for democracy in the world. What I said is that if President Trump didn't here in Brazil, what he did in the Capitol, he also would be on trial because justice is for all.

[BBC Interviewer]

You have built relationships, as you say, though, with other world leaders. You went to Russia's World War II anniversary celebrations, for example. Who do you have a better relationship with, President Putin or President Trump?

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

No, with President Putin. I had relation because he was president in previous times and I also was president of Brazil previous times. I don't have any relationship With Trump. Because when President Trump was elected the first time, I was not in the presidency. And now his relation is with Bolsonaro, not with Brazil.

[BBC South America Correspondent Ione Wells]

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[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

Okay.

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[BBC Interviewer]

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[BBC South America Correspondent Ione Wells]

For this episode of the Interview, I'm speaking to Brazilian President Lula da Silva. We sat down at the Alvarada palace, his home in Brasilia, a glass modernist masterpiece of a building. At times warm, at times fiery. President Lula flitted between different tones. Each was always expressed with passion. He was particularly animated whenever he talked about democracy, visibly angry at people and organizations he thinks undermine it, visibly proud when talking about institutions he believes uphold it. It's impossible not to feel when talking to him the presence of someone who has been in politics for so many decades. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Brazilian President Lula da Silva.

[BBC Interviewer]

You say you want a more democratic United Nations. Why not call out the authoritarianism among some of your allies? Russia, China, Iran. These are countries where it has been widely documented that there have been unfair elections, undemocratic elections, and human rights abuses too.

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

Let me tell you what I want from the un. I want that the United nations should represent the geography, the world geography of the 21st century. The UN today has nothing to do with the UN that was created in 1945, or better saying, the UN that was created in 1945 has nothing to do with today. The situation today. We have to include other countries. Where is Brazil in the UN Security Council? India, Germany, Japan. Where are the Afghan countries in the Security Security Council of the un? So the UN cannot continue with just five permanent members that won the Second World War. The world geography has changed. Geopolitics has changed that too. And it's necessary that the UN should go back and start having more strength to solve conflicts. If it doesn't have strength, it will not have an influence in any conflict. They can't have any influence in the Ukraine war, in Israel and Gaza and with Iran. The UN lacks any decision making because it does not have representation anymore. The five permanent members of the UN Security Council, they themselves don't respect the un. They make unilateral decisions when they go on war. What we want is a UN that represents the geopolitics of today and that the countries at present in Africa we have countries of 230 million inhabitants with 120 million inhabitants. And Brazil has 200 million inhabitants. India has 1 billion and 500 million. These countries have to be in the UN Security Council to help make their decision.

[BBC Interviewer]

You talk about democracy, why then not condemn Russia for its actions in Ukraine in the same language you've used against Israel, for example, why does Brazil happily continue to fund Russia's war in Ukraine by buying Russian diesel?

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

Let me say that it's important to have the clarity of what Brazil does. Brazil was the first country to condemn the occupation of Ukraine by Russia. Brazil doesn't finance Russia. We buy oil from Russia because we need to buy oil as China needs to buy. And India has to buy oil as Great Britain needs to buy oil and the US has to buy oil. Now. If we had had a UN that was functioning well, so certainly this war would not have happened. There's no one negotiating because the UN doesn't represent much today. If we had a UN functioned, this war would never exist. If the UN was functioning, we shouldn't have Gaza either. And there's no war. There's genocide going on. There's a sophisticated army killing children and women and even the Jewish people is against that. Because every time I see the press, there are street demonstrations against the killing that Netanyahu is doing in Gaza. If you think it's a war, I don't believe it's a war. I think it's a genocide and that it could not continue that way. And that's why I defend this two state solution. And that's why they defend the Palestinian state to be great to live in harmony with the Israeli state.

[BBC Interviewer]

I'd like to talk as well about COP30. Brazil's going to be on the world stage hosting their COP30 climate summit this year. How is your climate leadership consistent, though?

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

I just wanted to go back to the democracy issue that you raised before. No country in the world not trusted. Brazilian democracy. Justice works here. The judicial power, the legislative power and the executive branch of power also works. What we want is that we are sovereign in the decision making process that we're making here in Brazil. So we are the first ones to create the Group of Friends for Peace between Russia and Ukraine. We were the first ones to propose this idea. We created this group of 13 countries to negotiate and I tried to talk with the un. We should visit Zelensky and Putin and to say to them that it was necessary to end this war. I talked with Zelensky, I talked with Putin for them to participate in negotiating. We're not the ones that sell arms and weapons to Russia and for Zelensky, we're not the ones that want more war. I don't want to destroy Russia, Russian. I don't want to destroy Ukraine. I want that both countries live in peace. This is what I want.

[BBC Interviewer]

I want to move on to COP30 where Brazil will be on the world stage hosting the COP30 climate summit. How is your climate leadership consistent with your personal desire to allow oil companies to drill in the Amazon basin?

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

In addition, I would like to make it clear that we will organize the best and host the best COP in the history of the cops. COP was chosen to be held in the Amazon region because I want that the world, instead of talking about the Amazon region, they get to know truly the Amazon region. I want that people that are concerned with the forests should come to Brazil to get to know the forests. It's very easy to hold a copy in Paris or organize a COP in the Amazon region. That's different. I want people to get to know the Amazon.

[BBC Interviewer]

The International Energy Agency says there shouldn't be any new oil drilling projects to reach net zero by 2050. Are they wrong?

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

Well, first of all, we have to know the need of each country. Brazil is a country that has oil and possibly we have oil in the equatorial margin and we are making surveys and we're following the law and the rules so that we can do the research. If there's oil not there, we're just researching. We have Petrobrize, that's a state oil company that has the best technology. Deep water perspective for oil. There was no accident or incident with this company different from the British company that had a problem in the Mexican Gulf. We never had such a spill here. And if we do have a problem, we will be the ones that are liable and responsible to take care of a problem if it comes. I am totally favorable that there will be a moment that the world will not need any more fossil fuels. But this moment has not come yet. I want to know any country on the planet that is prepared to have an energy transition that is capable to give up fossil fuel. And let me tell you something. It's important for the people to know that Brazil is the country that has the energy matrix that is the cleanest in the world. 90% of the electrical power in Brazil is clean source of energy. We have 30% of ethanol blended in the gasoline. We have 15% of biodiesel blended with diesel oil. Brazil has wind power potential and solar power potential and biomass that no other country in the world has. And so we are making the greatest revolution in the energy transition better than any other country.

[BBC Interviewer]

Briefly, I just want to ask you, yes or no, will you run for election next year in 2026? And do you fear this risks a repeat of the US election where an incumbent who will be nearly 80 years old runs against somebody, a far right populist? Do you risk a repeat of that?

[Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]

I don't know if I'm going to run because this is not the moment to decide who will decide if I'm going to run for the president. Basically two factors that will decide my health situation and my party and the political convenience if I'm going to win the elections or not. But I was elected and I still have one and a half year of my term and I have to govern this country. I still have a lot to do in this one year and a half. And so when I left the country, this country, Brazil had left the hunger map. And now when I came Back to power, 33 million were in Hungary again. So now we ended with Hungary. This country is going two years above the world average of economic growth. And the salary mass is growing. The income of the working class is working. We have the lowest employment rate in our history in the lands since 2012. So these are factors that will weigh the moment that I will have to decide if I'm going to run or not for the elections. It's too early yet and I'll wait for the right moment if I'm going to be the candidate or not.

[BBC South America Correspondent Ione Wells]

Thank you for listening to the interview. From the BBC World Service. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the interim leader of Bangladesh, Mohammad Yunus, the former president of Liberia, Ellen Johnson Salif and global philanthropy Bill Gates. Until the next time. Bye for now.

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