The Interview (BBC World Service)

Episode: Chloé Zhao, director: I was an outsider

Date: January 23, 2026
Host: Anita Rani
Guest: Chloé Zhao (Oscar-winning director of Nomadland, Hamnet, and more)

Episode Overview

In this powerful conversation, filmmaker Chloé Zhao opens up about her journey as an outsider in Hollywood, her creative process, and the deep emotional resonance behind her latest film Hamnet. Speaking with BBC's Anita Rani, Zhao discusses the importance of building your own path, the role of community in filmmaking, the creative challenges of adapting literature to screen, and the themes of grief, lineage, and found family that run through her work. The episode provides rich insights for creatives, filmmakers, and anyone who has ever felt like they didn’t belong.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Being an Outsider and Building Your Own House

• Zhao shares the metaphor of being locked out of the "mainstream house" and choosing to build her own creative foundation—a process that’s humbling and fraught with challenges but ultimately rewarding.
• [02:41, 08:10] “If you’re trying to get to the top floor of a house and they’re not letting you up, you can spend a decade… or you can walk out of the house… you have to humble yourself, because you’re not going to have the infrastructure of the existing house. I have to cut down the trees, I have to get people to help, I have to build a foundation… but then when it’s finished, it’s your house.” — Chloé Zhao

2. Winning the Oscar as a Woman and Immigrant

• Zhao reflects on her Oscar win for Nomadland—what it meant personally and for outsiders in film.
• [03:31] “You look at that happening on the television… you don’t think it’s so far from your reality because… I was an immigrant. So then one day you wake up with that nomination… when you go to these festivals, that’s your community right there.” — Chloé Zhao

3. The Power of Community and Collaboration

• Zhao emphasizes that filmmaking is never a solitary journey.
• [05:21] “As women, we value collaboration and community more than… the dominant culture's idea that you gotta do it on your own. I have always been collaborating, not just with my crew and cast, but the places I go into.” — Chloé Zhao
• Zhao notes how communities—like those on Pine Ridge Reservation, nomadic workers, or the UK arts scene—opened up and lent authenticity to her films.

4. The Balance of Control and Trust in the Creative Process

• Zhao discusses the importance of meticulous preparation—then surrendering to collective creativity and the unknown.
• [07:02] “There is a fine line between being in control…and then also…let it go and allow everyone to bring forth what they bring forth and trust… Sometimes something happens that is so different than what I envisioned, and you have to look at that and go, ‘There is a message there.’” — Chloé Zhao

5. Moving Between Genres and Found Family

• Zhao talks about her diverse projects, including her new adaptation of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and how it resonates with her sense of found family.
• [10:03] “It is about found family… The monsters and the demons and the vampires are being a mirror, an archetype to what’s inside of us. Every week, we either learn to slay it or learn to work with it or learn to love it.” — Chloé Zhao

6. Adapting Hamnet: Creative Decisions and Collaboration with Maggie O’Farrell

• Zhao describes her attraction to Hamnet's “ancient lineage” themes and her insistence on collaborating with author Maggie O’Farrell.
• [13:25] “There were two things that jumped off the pages… One is this woman and her relationship with the forest, with nature, with the unseen… And then there is an artist who has no other choice but to express himself.”
• Co-writing process posed challenges, but “without friction, there’s no sparks.” [15:02]
• [14:38] “I loved it. I said to her, ‘You have to do it or I won’t do the film.’” — Chloé Zhao

7. Casting Jessie Buckley and the Notion of Lineage

• Jessie Buckley was always Zhao’s vision for Agnes in Hamnet.
• [16:05] “I just saw her. I saw her in that world. I saw her embody Maggie’s world, and I never had a doubt.” — Chloé Zhao
• Zhao describes how Buckley’s talent and emotionally-rooted acting connect to something “ancient,” enabling deep vulnerability.
• [17:40] “In order to not wear a mask to protect ourselves and to feel safe, you have to have been held and loved and seen unconditionally… that connection is primal and vital for us.”

8. Maternal Grief, Empathy, and Emotional Honesty in Film

• Zhao unpacks why it was important not to sanitize grief in Hamnet.
• [18:40] “When we sanitize grief, we sanitize the love… you only feel that much grief when you love that deeply. It’s literally two sides of a coin.”
• The film’s moments of loss are designed to evoke empathy and remind audiences of their shared humanity.

9. On-Set Practices: Rituals, Community, and Emotional Safety

• Creating a safe, communal, “ritualistic” environment is essential for intense scenes.
• [21:03] “In the morning, it’s about taking it slow… you’re allowed to have a profound experience. If you’re gonna cry, that’s also welcomed, everyone, not just the actors.”
• Music and ritual mark the start and end of the day; dance is a key way the team bonds.
• [22:43] “The best way to build community is dancing… as we start moving our bodies, we’re reminded that we’re a lot more similar than we think we are.”

10. Personal Reflections: Connection and Vulnerability

• Zhao and Buckley’s friendship deepened during times of heartbreak and vulnerability.
• [24:07] “Everything you built that first 40 years started to crumble… Jesse caught me at a time when a couple of those things were on top of each other… And I had a choice in that moment. I can say, ‘yeah, I’m fine’—but not that day… it made you realize you can’t do this on your own.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On creating your own path:
  “If you’re not a little bit afraid then you’re not paying attention.”
  — Chloé Zhao [01:05]

• On community in filmmaking:
  “I have to build a foundation. It’s going to take time and you have to weather some bigger storms. But then when it’s finished, it’s your house.”
  — Chloé Zhao [02:41, 08:10]

• On collaborating as women:
  “As women we value collaboration and again, community more than what the… dominant culture [says], like, you gotta do it on your own.”
  — Chloé Zhao [05:21]

• On vulnerability and lineage:
  “To not wear a mask… you have to have been held and loved and seen unconditionally… that connection is primal and vital for us.”
  — Chloé Zhao [17:40]

• On grief and love:
  “When we sanitize grief, we sanitize the love… you only feel that much grief when you love that deeply.”
  — Chloé Zhao [18:40]

• On building community (and dancing):
  “The best way to build community is dancing.”
  — Chloé Zhao [22:43]

• On midlife vulnerability:
  “Everything… started to crumble… you can’t do this on your own.”
  — Chloé Zhao [24:07]

Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:05] Chloé Zhao sets the tone about fear and unity as an outsider.
• [02:41, 08:10] The “build your own house” metaphor for creative outsiders.
• [03:31] Reflections on winning the Oscar as an immigrant outsider.
• [05:21] Collaboration and the role of community in filmmaking.
• [07:02] Trusting the unknown and collective creativity.
• [10:03] The meaning of found family—especially through Buffy.
• [13:25] Why Zhao chose to adapt Hamnet.
• [15:02] Collaborating with author Maggie O’Farrell.
• [16:05] On casting Jessie Buckley and lineage.
• [18:40] On grief, love, and not sanitizing emotion in cinema.
• [21:03] Rituals and emotional safety on set.
• [22:43] Building community through dance.
• [24:07] Personal connection and embracing vulnerability.

Final Thoughts

This episode offers an honest, inspiring window into Chloé Zhao’s approach to art, resilience, and human connection. Her belief in forging your own path, valuing community and collaboration, and embracing emotional authenticity shines through every topic, providing motivation and wisdom for fellow outsiders and creatives everywhere.