Chloé Zhao, director: I was an outsider

Summary

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The Interview (BBC World Service)

Episode: Chloé Zhao, director: I was an outsider

Date: January 23, 2026
Host: Anita Rani
Guest: Chloé Zhao (Oscar-winning director of Nomadland, Hamnet, and more)

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Episode Overview

In this powerful conversation, filmmaker Chloé Zhao opens up about her journey as an outsider in Hollywood, her creative process, and the deep emotional resonance behind her latest film Hamnet. Speaking with BBC's Anita Rani, Zhao discusses the importance of building your own path, the role of community in filmmaking, the creative challenges of adapting literature to screen, and the themes of grief, lineage, and found family that run through her work. The episode provides rich insights for creatives, filmmakers, and anyone who has ever felt like they didn’t belong.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Being an Outsider and Building Your Own House

• Zhao shares the metaphor of being locked out of the "mainstream house" and choosing to build her own creative foundation—a process that’s humbling and fraught with challenges but ultimately rewarding.
• [02:41, 08:10] “If you’re trying to get to the top floor of a house and they’re not letting you up, you can spend a decade… or you can walk out of the house… you have to humble yourself, because you’re not going to have the infrastructure of the existing house. I have to cut down the trees, I have to get people to help, I have to build a foundation… but then when it’s finished, it’s your house.” — Chloé Zhao

2. Winning the Oscar as a Woman and Immigrant

• Zhao reflects on her Oscar win for Nomadland—what it meant personally and for outsiders in film.
• [03:31] “You look at that happening on the television… you don’t think it’s so far from your reality because… I was an immigrant. So then one day you wake up with that nomination… when you go to these festivals, that’s your community right there.” — Chloé Zhao

3. The Power of Community and Collaboration

• Zhao emphasizes that filmmaking is never a solitary journey.
• [05:21] “As women, we value collaboration and community more than… the dominant culture's idea that you gotta do it on your own. I have always been collaborating, not just with my crew and cast, but the places I go into.” — Chloé Zhao
• Zhao notes how communities—like those on Pine Ridge Reservation, nomadic workers, or the UK arts scene—opened up and lent authenticity to her films.

4. The Balance of Control and Trust in the Creative Process

• Zhao discusses the importance of meticulous preparation—then surrendering to collective creativity and the unknown.
• [07:02] “There is a fine line between being in control…and then also…let it go and allow everyone to bring forth what they bring forth and trust… Sometimes something happens that is so different than what I envisioned, and you have to look at that and go, ‘There is a message there.’” — Chloé Zhao

5. Moving Between Genres and Found Family

• Zhao talks about her diverse projects, including her new adaptation of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and how it resonates with her sense of found family.
• [10:03] “It is about found family… The monsters and the demons and the vampires are being a mirror, an archetype to what’s inside of us. Every week, we either learn to slay it or learn to work with it or learn to love it.” — Chloé Zhao

6. Adapting Hamnet: Creative Decisions and Collaboration with Maggie O’Farrell

• Zhao describes her attraction to Hamnet's “ancient lineage” themes and her insistence on collaborating with author Maggie O’Farrell.
• [13:25] “There were two things that jumped off the pages… One is this woman and her relationship with the forest, with nature, with the unseen… And then there is an artist who has no other choice but to express himself.”
• Co-writing process posed challenges, but “without friction, there’s no sparks.” [15:02]
• [14:38] “I loved it. I said to her, ‘You have to do it or I won’t do the film.’” — Chloé Zhao

7. Casting Jessie Buckley and the Notion of Lineage

• Jessie Buckley was always Zhao’s vision for Agnes in Hamnet.
• [16:05] “I just saw her. I saw her in that world. I saw her embody Maggie’s world, and I never had a doubt.” — Chloé Zhao
• Zhao describes how Buckley’s talent and emotionally-rooted acting connect to something “ancient,” enabling deep vulnerability.
• [17:40] “In order to not wear a mask to protect ourselves and to feel safe, you have to have been held and loved and seen unconditionally… that connection is primal and vital for us.”

8. Maternal Grief, Empathy, and Emotional Honesty in Film

• Zhao unpacks why it was important not to sanitize grief in Hamnet.
• [18:40] “When we sanitize grief, we sanitize the love… you only feel that much grief when you love that deeply. It’s literally two sides of a coin.”
• The film’s moments of loss are designed to evoke empathy and remind audiences of their shared humanity.

9. On-Set Practices: Rituals, Community, and Emotional Safety

• Creating a safe, communal, “ritualistic” environment is essential for intense scenes.
• [21:03] “In the morning, it’s about taking it slow… you’re allowed to have a profound experience. If you’re gonna cry, that’s also welcomed, everyone, not just the actors.”
• Music and ritual mark the start and end of the day; dance is a key way the team bonds.
• [22:43] “The best way to build community is dancing… as we start moving our bodies, we’re reminded that we’re a lot more similar than we think we are.”

10. Personal Reflections: Connection and Vulnerability

• Zhao and Buckley’s friendship deepened during times of heartbreak and vulnerability.
• [24:07] “Everything you built that first 40 years started to crumble… Jesse caught me at a time when a couple of those things were on top of each other… And I had a choice in that moment. I can say, ‘yeah, I’m fine’—but not that day… it made you realize you can’t do this on your own.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On creating your own path:
  “If you’re not a little bit afraid then you’re not paying attention.”
  — Chloé Zhao [01:05]

• On community in filmmaking:
  “I have to build a foundation. It’s going to take time and you have to weather some bigger storms. But then when it’s finished, it’s your house.”
  — Chloé Zhao [02:41, 08:10]

• On collaborating as women:
  “As women we value collaboration and again, community more than what the… dominant culture [says], like, you gotta do it on your own.”
  — Chloé Zhao [05:21]

• On vulnerability and lineage:
  “To not wear a mask… you have to have been held and loved and seen unconditionally… that connection is primal and vital for us.”
  — Chloé Zhao [17:40]

• On grief and love:
  “When we sanitize grief, we sanitize the love… you only feel that much grief when you love that deeply.”
  — Chloé Zhao [18:40]

• On building community (and dancing):
  “The best way to build community is dancing.”
  — Chloé Zhao [22:43]

• On midlife vulnerability:
  “Everything… started to crumble… you can’t do this on your own.”
  — Chloé Zhao [24:07]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:05] Chloé Zhao sets the tone about fear and unity as an outsider.
• [02:41, 08:10] The “build your own house” metaphor for creative outsiders.
• [03:31] Reflections on winning the Oscar as an immigrant outsider.
• [05:21] Collaboration and the role of community in filmmaking.
• [07:02] Trusting the unknown and collective creativity.
• [10:03] The meaning of found family—especially through Buffy.
• [13:25] Why Zhao chose to adapt Hamnet.
• [15:02] Collaborating with author Maggie O’Farrell.
• [16:05] On casting Jessie Buckley and lineage.
• [18:40] On grief, love, and not sanitizing emotion in cinema.
• [21:03] Rituals and emotional safety on set.
• [22:43] Building community through dance.
• [24:07] Personal connection and embracing vulnerability.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers an honest, inspiring window into Chloé Zhao’s approach to art, resilience, and human connection. Her belief in forging your own path, valuing community and collaboration, and embracing emotional authenticity shines through every topic, providing motivation and wisdom for fellow outsiders and creatives everywhere.

Transcript

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[Anita Rani]

Hello, I'm BBC presenter Anita Rani and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The the best conversations coming out of the BBC People shaping our world from all over the world.

[Chloe Zhao]

If you're not a little bit afraid then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united.

[Anita Rani]

Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey.

[Weight Watchers Advertiser]

Being born in America, feeling American, having.

[Chloe Zhao]

People treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism for this.

[Anita Rani]

Interview, I met the Chinese movie director Chloe Zhao in London. Zhao made history in 2021 when, at the age of just 39, she became the first woman of color and at the time only the second woman ever to win the Best Director award at the Oscars. Born in Beijing in 1982, her father was a successful steel executive and her stepmother, the well known Chinese comedy actress Song Dandan. Despite speaking little English, Zhao traveled to England to study at the age of 14 in the mid-1990s and later moved to the US to study political science in Massachusetts. She then enrolled in a graduate film program in New York in 2010 under the Artistic direction of the African American filmmaker Spike Lee. Just five years after her Oscars triumph for Nomadland, Zhao is making headlines once again as the director of the critically acclaimed movie Hamnet, a dramatisation about the son of the English playwright William Shakespeare. It recently won two Golden Globe awards, including one for Best Drama Movie. In this interview, she reveals the connection she has to her work, including Hamnet, as well as reflecting on her success as an outsider in Hollywood.

[Chloe Zhao]

I wasn't given the mainstream opportunity, the first two films and I always said if you're trying to get to the top floor of a house and then they're not letting you up and you can spend a decade of your life trying to climb one flight up or you can walk out of the house. But then you have to humble yourself because you're not going to have the infrastructure of the existing house. I have to cut down the trees, I have to get people to help, I have to build a foundation. It's going to take time and you have to weather some bigger storms. But then when it's finished, it's your house.

[Anita Rani]

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Chloe Zhao. Chloe, you won best director at the Oscars for Nomadland. What did that win mean to you?

[Chloe Zhao]

When you were a little girl or just even being in film school, you look at that happening on the television and I usually watch the Oscars with a pint of Haagen Dazs ice cream. Mango sorbet was my choice. I used to watch it in my 20s every year. And you don't think is so far from your reality because I didn't know anybody and I didn't, you know, I was an immigrant. So then one day you wake up with that nomination and really, I mean, since we're on the conversation of community, I started again knowing no one and Sundance Institute, film independent, fp, you know, all these labs welcomed me. That was, I met Ryan Coogler there. You know, I met David Lowery, Mario Heller and a lot of these filmmakers that, that are supporting each other right now and from these institute and then the festivals, Cannes, Venice, Sundance, you know, Telluride and these festivals have supported me for all my films. And when you go to these festivals, that's your community right there. So then when you, in that moment, I go, I guess I was held.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chloe Zhao]

So you feel it's really nice.

[Interviewer]

It's extraordinary. So just to remind people, Chloe is only the second woman to have won best direct director Oscar, but also the first non white woman. And just to remind everyone, Chinese immigrants to America, as a woman going into the rarefied world of filmmaking to win an Oscar, it's extraordinary. What does it take to do that? Like how? I mean, of course the work speaks for itself. You know, your art is your art and it's extraordinary. But you know, to get into that.

[Chloe Zhao]

World is so like, I do think as women we value collaboration and again, community more than what the. I think sometimes the dominant culture or saying like, you gotta do it on your own. And I have always been, you know, collaborating not just with my crew and cast, but the places I go into. You know, when I went into the Pine Ridge Reservation. That whole community opened themselves up to me. And when we couldn't get funding, we tried for two years. We couldn't get funding for the film I had in mind. So we ended up with like $100,000 shoestring budget. And so was the writer. The first film, Songs, my brother saw me, and then the writer was made with $80,000. And it was that community in South Dakota opened up everything to us. We had access everywhere, you know, to every big event, and we were able to film everywhere. So the production value and the access and what's on the screen went so much be what money can buy. And the nomadland again, the nomadic community opens themselves up to us in ways I didn't even think was possible, you know, and so. And making Hamnet, I felt very held by the community here in the uk. You know, we were. We were supported. We had access to places and we had it really, you know, director sounds very kind of singular. But a captain of a ship would tell you, if you want to live.

[Interviewer]

You need a good crew. And they trust you. They trust it. It's trust, right?

[Anita Rani]

They do.

[Chloe Zhao]

Because I do think that I also have a trust in something bigger that is guiding us. There is a fine line between being in control and preparing everything and making sure everything is going to produce like we want it to be. And then also there's another half of the equation, which is do the work to create the container so when we actually are in it, then do the work of letting it go and allowing everyone to bring forth what they bring forth and trust that sometimes something happens that is so different than what I envisioned. And you have to look at that go, there is a message there. And you have to be on set, try to decipher what that message is and try to follow that, because you fight against it, then there's a chance you lose that extra thing, that mystery that's bigger than you.

[Interviewer]

This is lovely. This is very good. Profound life advice. I was going to say to you, what advice would you give to any sort of creative who feels like they're an outsider? How do they get in of that?

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah, yeah. But that is more, you know, because I wasn't given the mainstream opportunity. The first two films, I just had this. People had to ask me during that time, and I always said, you know, if. If you're trying to get to the top floor of a house and then they're not letting you up, and you can spend a decade of your life trying to climb one flight up, or you can walk out of the house and you see, like, whoa, there is a whole undiscovered countries out there. But then you have to humble yourself because you're not going to have the infrastructure of the existing house. And then can you talk to your ego and go, well, I'm not going to be able to rise up. You know, I'm not going to have all these convenience. I have to cut down the trees. I have to get people to help. I have to build a foundation. It's going to take time, and you have to weather some bigger storms. But then when it's finished, it's your house.

[Interviewer]

It's your house.

[Chloe Zhao]

It's your house, Chloe.

[Interviewer]

That is so beautiful. That is perfectly explained. I love that. And I will be regaling that to lots of people for the rest of my life. I interviewed Chloe and she told me that we need to build our own house. And I can relate. What I also love about you is that you go from Nomadland to Marvel Hamnet to Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

[Anita Rani]

This is. I cannot wait.

[Interviewer]

What can you tell us about it?

[Chloe Zhao]

I was 19, 20, and I was at Mount Holyoke. It's a women's college. And me and my roommate and people in the house, I was staying at the dorm. We will get together every Tuesday or Thursday, and it will be like a ritual of gathering of the sisters. And we watch Buffet.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Chloe Zhao]

And so it is about found family, you know, And I still think that, especially in the modern age, where the traditional family sometimes even like miles away, you know, it's just a different, different thing that we don't. We can't always rely on like we did back in the days. So this idea of a found family is. So that's what Buffy is about, you know, that and then the monsters and the demons and the vampires are being a mirror, an archetype to what's inside of us. So every week, we either learn to slay it or learn to work with it or learn to love it.

[Anita Rani]

You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

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[Anita Rani]

I'm a huge admirer of Chloe Zhao's work. Where to begin? Her cinematography, her use of color and of light, and in particular the stories. She chooses to focus on those who are rarely in the spotlight. So I wanted a fangirl moment to meet the woman who as an outsider to the film industry has gone on to dominate it, becoming the second woman and the first woman of color to win best director at the Oscars. This is a huge achievement and she did it all with integrity. I have so much respect for her. Lots of what Chloe spoke to me about will stay with me long after we got together to discuss her latest film, Hamnet. Particularly how if you don't feel welcome in a space, leave it and create your own. So let's now return to my conversation with Chloe Zhao.

[Interviewer]

Congratulations on this movie. I saw it. All I can say to you is it's still in me.

[Chloe Zhao]

Oh, I'm happy to hear that.

[Anita Rani]

Yeah. So let's.

[Interviewer]

Let's talk about it. Hamnet, why did you choose to make this movie?

[Chloe Zhao]

I think there were two things that came jumped off the pages of Maggie Ofarrow's book. Incredible book. One is this woman and her relationship with the forest, with nature, with the unseen. Her as a woman, as a mother, as a lover, as a storyteller herself. And that's connected to a very old and ancient lineage. And then there is an artist who has no other choice but to express himself through his creativity and As a result, built the Globe Theatre and then created communal experiences for hundreds of years until today.

[Interviewer]

And William Shakespeare's story we all know about.

[Chloe Zhao]

Exactly. That's that guy.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that guy. That's the guy she's talking about.

[Chloe Zhao]

So those things are in me and that I wanted to explore.

[Interviewer]

And when you say in you, I mean, your DNA is all over this film. You wrote the screenplay, Co edited, directed the film.

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah, I co wrote it with Maggie.

[Anita Rani]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

What was that experience like?

[Chloe Zhao]

I loved it. I said to her, you have to do it or I won't do the film.

[Interviewer]

Well, how's she gonna say no?

[Chloe Zhao]

Well, she still could, but I was very, you know, she reminded me, I held the book up. Can you give a screen? And went like, I want to make this.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. How does. How does the process work when you're co writing with the author of a novel, such an incredible novel, and you know what happens when you disagree with Maggie o' Farrell who wrote the book?

[Chloe Zhao]

Can you. Well, yes. Yes, of course. And without I disagreement, without friction, there's no sparks. You know, I think I sent her these very long voice notes. Sometimes I talk myself out of my own idea. Sometimes it's convincing enough to convince her, or maybe she just goes, that is a very long voice note. I guess I'm gonna say yes. And sometimes at the end of it, I'm like, you know what, Maggie? You're right. Never mind me.

[Anita Rani]

Beautiful.

[Interviewer]

I was so excited when I knew I was gonna interview you for so many reasons, but one of them is because when obviously you and Frances McDormand worked together. Madeline, I remember thinking, oh, my God, I wish I could be in the room with those two women. And now you're telling me about your experience working with Maggie o'. Farrell. Another powerhouse. Two women, a couple together I hugely admire. So let's bring in another one, who's Jessie Buckley, who plays Agnes, the wife of William Shakespeare in Hamnet. Can you tell me how that came about? And was it always going to be Jessie? I mean, she's extraordinary.

[Anita Rani]

Always.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Chloe Zhao]

I read the book and I had a very tunneled vision of Jessie. I just saw her. I saw her in that world. I saw her embody Maggie's world, and I never had a doubt to be anyone else.

[Interviewer]

What did you see her in that you thought, was it all her work?

[Chloe Zhao]

I saw her in the Lost Daughter maybe a year or so before, because I was in a jury at Venice when the Lost Daughter was there. I have now seen Wild Rose or Beast.

[Interviewer]

Then you've done A deep dive.

[Chloe Zhao]

I did a deep dive. And then I saw a woman talking when I met her at Telluride. So I felt not only she's technically such a brilliant actress and also with very strong discipline and conviction to do the work. I mean, the amount of work she does, everything from making honey to reading up all about everything around the character to journaling, to putting herself through somatic work, to full immersion of working on this character. But then also there's something about her having a really big heart and also having some kind of, whether she knows or not, ancient lineage supporting her. So she feels vulnerable enough to be able to, I say, like, open that window to her soul in front of a camera and you see that in her eyes.

[Interviewer]

I completely know what you're talking about. There might be people who don't, though. What do you mean? An ancient lineage coming through her soul?

[Chloe Zhao]

I think in order to feel safe, whether you're an actor or just you and me right now, you know, in order to not wear a mask to protect ourselves and to feel safe, you have to have been held and loved and seen unconditionally, you know, by your mother, your father, your grandmothers, or, you know, in some case, your ancestors. And that connection is primal and vital for us, and that's unfortunately very much lost. And I feel like she, whether she knows it or not, is there. And this character, that's why she's drawn to this character, because she's supported by her lineage.

[Interviewer]

It's a very powerful character and role to play because the themes, you know, of maternal grief are so strong in the film. Scenes of childbirth, immense, unimaginable grief that are not sanitized.

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Why was it important for you to do that?

[Chloe Zhao]

Because when we sanitize grief, which is something inevitably, no matter how much you try to numb it out, we're all going to feel at some point of our lives, and when we do. When we. When we sanitize that, we sanitize the love, you know, because.

[Anita Rani]

Yeah.

[Cachava Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Chloe Zhao]

Because you only feel that much grief when you love that deeply. It's literally on the two side of a coin. And I often see people react to the film with, you know, heartache and tenderness, and I want to remind them. And that is because their capacity and the love they had and still have for whatever, whoever they're grieving, is immense.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. It's really interesting you should say that, because I don't have children. And when I watched the scene, and it's not a spoiler, because it's the main pivotal point of the film. So we can say, you know, she. You know, she. She loses her child. What comes the wail and the pain that Jessie Buckley, or, you know, through the character of Agnes, expresses. Like, I felt it. Like I felt it. And I don't know what that just.

[Chloe Zhao]

Because your capacity to love is immense and so are the audiences who don't have the exact experience as her. And we are actually biologically, psychologically designed this way that tragedies, losses and grief connect us. We're able to feel empathy for each other through the unthinkable difficulties that we go through. And we're literally designed this way. And that's why we form community. We help strangers. And no matter how much you disagree with someone and you see them grieving for something, you immediately feel to be more human. And that, I think when we try to avoid the grief part, we actually forgot empathy and love, it comes side by side.

[Anita Rani]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

How did you work with Jessie in those scenes? How did you bring her out of it? Like, what happens on set when that. When you're in such an intense environment.

[Chloe Zhao]

You know, first of all, having the right ecosystem around her, we carefully pick our cast and crew. You know, for example, Emily Watson, she's like a mother to us all.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Chloe Zhao]

You know, and to. Having her there makes a huge difference. And one thing is to start and end the day as if it's a container. And ritualistically, in the sense that in the morning, it's about taking it slow. It's about, you know, playing music, letting people know that you're allowed to have a profound experience. You're allowed to be silent. You're allowed to feel things. And if you're gonna cry, that's also welcomed everyone, not just the actors. And so you kind of create a communal experience, and then you let the community, like, slowly ease into the day. And sometimes we'll play music because music help harmonize. And then we sometimes would play music on the first couple takes, what music usually is. Jesse in the morning will send me a playlist. So it's very much where Agnes is. You know, we really want to understand her language. There's a lot of Max Richter, and.

[Interviewer]

He was the soundtrack.

[Chloe Zhao]

He was the soundtrack, the composer. But Jessie would bring in everything. And she did have a playlist for that day. I don't remember exactly what it is. And she. And then we will play that for the first couple takes. Even so, the camera operator, everyone is, again, is moved as a community. And only Jessie will say, only when she feels held by the community can that level of vulnerability come through.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Anita Rani]

Extraordinary.

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. You can imagine. It has to be a very safe environment for someone to actually go there.

[Chloe Zhao]

And then you end the day with dancing.

[Interviewer]

Ah, tell me more. I mean, you got me.

[Anita Rani]

You had me at dancing.

[Chloe Zhao]

Chloe, the best way to build community is dancing.

[Anita Rani]

Yes.

[Chloe Zhao]

Again, you might disagree with somebody from across the table, but if you play the music, everybody gets up. Dancing, you immediately feel like, oh, we could be friends. Doesn't matter how awkward the moves are, but so as we start moving our bodies, we're reminded that we're a lot more similar than we think we are.

[Interviewer]

Yes. It's universal language, and it just lets it out of your body. Is it true that you and Jesse bonded over a breakup? Tell me more about this story.

[Chloe Zhao]

Not a breakup that wasn't exactly correct, but it's more like a series of heartbreak and loss and losing loved ones and losing a sense of self. I think when you're in life, everything that you built that first 40 years started crumble. And then Jesse caught me at a time when a couple of those things were on top of each other within a day, and I started to feel I was near Central Park. I was just that feeling when you feel like the ground isn't there and there's nothing to hold you. And so, you know, she just happened to text me, say, hey, are you okay? At, like, one in the morning when I wasn't. And I had a choice in that moment.

[Interviewer]

Every woman in their 40s is with us right now listening to this, going, yes, I know.

[Chloe Zhao]

You know what I mean? Yeah. And then. And then that. And then you sort of. You in the room, you go, I'm not okay. You know? And so when. When she said, send me that text message, I had a choice in that moment, I can say, yeah, I'm fine. And I am a woman, a person that have always said, I'm fine. Yeah, but not that day. And that's why I think midlife crisis, however you want to call it, the Quickening, is not a bad thing, because it made you realize you can't do this on your own. And it was probably one of the first time I would say to someone who I don't know that well yet, but just happened to be available in that moment, going, actually, I'm not okay. She said, come over right away. And that's how.

[Anita Rani]

Thank you for listening to the interview. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can find many more episodes of the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including ones with former Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern, Mexican actor Diego Calva and refugee rights campaigner Baroness Arminka Helich. Until the next time. Bye for now.

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