Dame Sarah Mullally, Archbishop of Canterbury: Working in partnership with others

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Interview – Dame Sarah Mullally, Archbishop of Canterbury: Working in Partnership With Others

Podcast: The Interview (BBC World Service)
Host: Alim McBoul
Date: February 13, 2026
Guest: Dame Sarah Mullally, incoming Archbishop of Canterbury

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Episode Overview

This episode features Dame Sarah Mullally, the first woman to become Archbishop of Canterbury, discussing her historic appointment, her commitment to partnership and collaboration in leadership, and her approach to a Church navigating internal tensions and public scrutiny. Covering topics from safeguarding and justice to progress on same-sex blessings, reparative justice, and confronting misogyny, Dame Sarah lays out her vision for a more inclusive, transparent Church of England.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Weight and Hope of Office

• Support and Encouragement
  • Dame Sarah acknowledges the "weight of office" but describes feeling uplifted by wide support as she steps into the role.

    "There's a sense of the weight of office that I feel, but I've also been very conscious of the huge support that I've had from people either writing emails or passing in the streets... So also I feel hopeful as well." (04:12)

Path to Leadership

• Single Vocation, Multiple Callings
  • Sarah emphasizes a singular commitment to following Jesus Christ, seeing both her nursing and priestly careers as part of that.

    "I've had one vocation and that's to follow Jesus Christ... there's commonalities between nursing and being a priest, that of people often sitting in those places where maybe there is no cure, but there is healing." (05:44)

• Values: Collaboration and Encouragement
  • Attributes her rise to collaboration and enabling others, citing a preference for partnership and empowering teams over individual ambition.

    "I've always been somebody that wants to work with people, to enable them and encourage them to be the best that they can be." (06:35)

Controversy Around Her Appointment

• Anglican Communion Tensions
  • Some churches have pushed back against a female Archbishop and threatened schism.
  • Sarah’s approach: listen empathetically, offer hospitality, and seek continued partnership.

    "What I hope to do is to be able to provide a space where I can offer hospitality to people, where I can listen to what their concerns are... find some way in which we can at least have partnership together." (07:42)

• Building Relationships with Global Leaders
  • Sarah has already met with the five regional Anglican primates and several bishops, focusing on knowing and being known to lay a foundation of trust.

    "Whenever you start a new role, you have to know and be known." (08:42)

Safeguarding and Abuse Scandals

• Facing Scrutiny
  • She addresses lingering questions about her role in safeguarding failures, recommitting to transparency, victim advocacy, and independence in safeguarding processes.

    "All of us should be open to having the light shone on what we do... I will reiterate my commitment to safeguarding, particularly to listening to the victims and survivors of abuse." (10:09)

  • She confirms reforms are coming to the clergy disciplinary process for more independent scrutiny.

    "I have spoken before about improving the clergy disciplinary measure and proposals are going to this Synod in February to work on that." (11:31)

Same-Sex Blessings and Equality

• Progress Within Process
  • Sarah supports blessings for same-sex couples in existing services and highlights the significance for involved couples.

    "The House of Bishops commended prayers to be said, prayers of blessings and thanksgiving for same sex couples... that been made possible. And having spoken to couples who have already experienced those prayers... I know how much that means to them." (12:49)

  • On standalone blessings, she stresses her role is to listen to Synod and hold space for diverse views, not to preempt the process.

    "As the Archbishop of Canterbury, one of those things that I want to offer is how you shape further that space where people of different views on the issue of same sex blessings can operate and to speak about it." (14:40)

Reparative Justice for Slavery

• Church’s Responsibility and Action
  • Sarah supports reparative justice efforts, citing the Spire Project, which aims to support deprived communities as part of addressing the Church's involvement in slavery.

    "The Church of England has to take seriously its role and the part we played in the transportation of enslaved people... the Spire Project seeks to try and, in a sense, provide a just and a merciful way forward." (19:20)

  • She assures that funds for reparative justice do not come at the expense of church parishes.

    "Project Spire does not take money away from parishes and our chaplaincies... this 1.6 million is going to some of our most lowest income communities." (20:26)

Assisted Dying Debate

• Complexity and Scrutiny
  • She advocates for serious parliamentary scrutiny of assisted dying proposals, noting the importance and complexity of the debate for society.

    "It's absolutely right that the House of Lords takes their role for scrutiny absolutely seriously... to ensure that the right decisions are made." (21:54)

Leadership Philosophy and Navigating Misogyny

• Bridge-Building over Dictating
  • Sarah envisions her role as one of partnership and bridge-building, noting that decisive moments may arise where she must assert a view, but always with integrity, theological insight, and after listening to others.

    "My role has always been to, first of all listen to God, but to listen to other people, that we work in partnership... there will be moments where I have to either make a decision... and I will do that." (23:04)

• Confronting Sexism
  • She candidly acknowledges experience with misogyny and commits to speaking out and supporting those less able to do so.

    "I've learned it's the first thing you have to talk about it so that you bring it out into the open... I'm conscious that being in this role, it's important for me to speak of it." (24:06)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On her historic role:

  "I hope to be the shepherd, to care for people in their parishes, for our clergy, to support them... and also to speak of the Christian hope, not just within the Church and the Anglican Communion, but also into the world." (04:49)

• On partnership in leadership:

  "If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And so my desire is to go far and together." (23:36)

• On tackling internal sexism:

  "I commit myself to making an environment where all people can flourish, which is safer for all." (24:06)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | | --------- | ------- | | 04:12 – 05:19 | Feelings of hope and sense of duty as incoming Archbishop | | 05:44 – 07:10 | Path to leadership, collaboration as a core value | | 07:42 – 08:42 | Responding to opposition within the Anglican Communion | | 10:09 – 11:55 | Safeguarding reforms and commitment to victim-first approaches | | 12:49 – 14:40 | Blessings for same-sex couples and navigating divisions | | 19:20 – 20:26 | Reparative justice projects addressing Church’s role in slavery | | 21:54 – 23:04 | Assisted dying debate and the Church’s public role | | 23:36 – 24:06 | Bridge-building, partnership, and her approach to leadership | | 24:06 – 25:06 | Speaking out against misogyny and fostering inclusion |

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Summary of Tone and Style

Throughout the conversation, Dame Sarah is thoughtful, measured, and deeply committed to dialogue and partnership. She projects hope, humility, and a willingness to confront uncomfortable truths, both in historical matters like slavery and in contemporary challenges such as safeguarding, misogyny, and LGBTQ+ inclusion. The tone is constructive, future-focused, and suffused with her egalitarian and collaborative Christian ethos.

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Transcript

[BBC Podcast Announcer]

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[Alim McBoul]

Hello, I'm Alim McBoul, the BBC's religion editor, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC people shaping our world from all over the world.

[Interviewer]

If you're not a little bit afraid then you're not paying attention.

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

We have never seen seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing, do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having.

[Alim McBoul]

People treat me like I'm not.

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

We're more popular than populism.

[Alim McBoul]

For this interview, I met Dame Sarah Mullally at the old deanery beside St Paul's Cathedral in London shortly before she was legally confirmed as the 106th Archbishop of Canterbury in a service at the cathedral. Dame Sarah is the first woman to lead the Church of England, and although there have been female bishops for more than a decade, the ordination of women remains controversial. And her election has also led to some traditionalist churches abroad to threaten to leave the Anglican Communion. She started her career in nursing, rising to become England's chief nursing officer, and sees the commonality between nursing and being a priest not not always finding a cure, she says, but trying to heal. The archbishop tells me she understands the need to rebuild trust in the church after a slew of abuse scandals. Her predecessor, Justin Welby, resigned following accusations he didn't act sufficiently well on information about a prolific abuser. Of course, she won't be making decisions on her own. Much of the Church of England's agenda is spelled out by its national assembly or synod, which meets in February to discuss matters of doctrine and worship. But there's certainly lots to do. You're going to hear how she intends to make progress on some of these issues, from reparative justice for the church's past involvement in slavery to how best to handle the blessings in church of same sex couples. And as a self described feminist, you'll also hear Dame Sarah tell me that she will call out sexism.

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

I have been very grateful for the support of a whole range of people, including men, in my ministry. But it is fair to say that I have, both, in my secular role as well as in the church, experienced misogyny at times. And I think that I've learned it's the first thing you have to talk about it so that you bring it out into the open. I also think there's something around talking on a one to one basis as well, because some people may not experience it. So in a sense I will continue to do that. I will talk to people individually if I experience it, but also to. To speak of it. And I'm conscious that being in this role, it's important for me to speak of it because there are some that don't necessarily have the status or the power of this role and feel more hesitant to do it.

[Alim McBoul]

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Dame Sarah Mullally, the Archbishop of Canterbury.

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

There's a sense of the weight of office that I feel, but I've also been very conscious of the huge support that I've had from people either writing emails or passing in the streets. So actually I feel really encouraged. And along with that, I feel hopeful. You know, I know that in our churches and our chaplaincies there's wonderful things happening. So also I feel hopeful as well.

[Interviewer]

You have, of course, in recent days met with the King, the true Governor of the Church of England. What were those conversations when it came to guidance or what he wants from the church? Is that what you would have talked about?

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

I think the King was keen to hear from me about my vision for the church in the same way as a lot of people have. And therefore I shared with the King that I hope to be the shepherd, to care for people in their parishes, for our clergy, to support them, to enable them to do what they can do, but also to speak of the Christian hope, not just within the Church and the Anglican Communion, but also into the world and providing hospitality at a time where there's a lot of challenges for people. So places where people of difference can.

[Interviewer]

Come together, a lot of people over the last few months have been looking at your incredibly impressive CV and looking at somebody who rose to the top of two vocations. How have you assessed how that has happened? What qualities do you have that meant you rose to the top of nursing, entered government and now within the church, have risen to the top?

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

Well, first and foremost, I've had one vocation and that's to follow Jesus Christ. And I think for me, the question has always been, what does God want me to do with my gifts and my skills? So that's where my focus has always been. But, of course, there's commonalities between nursing and being a priest, that of people often sitting in those places where maybe there is no cure, but there is healing and also that opportunity about how you build partnerships with people and therefore collaboratively working together. And in a sense, I've always focused on what I've been called to do and how do I do that in partnership with the others, with my best of my ability. And so that's always been my focus.

[Interviewer]

So, in answer to the question about what qualities there are in you that have meant that you've got to this point, you're talking about collaboration. What else is there?

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

Well, I think my Christian faith has always been my foundation, and there is something about that, understanding that my value and my worth is in God and therefore stepping away from the expectations of other people. I've always been somebody that wants to work with people, to enable them and encourage them to be the best that they can be. It's always helpful to have people who are better than you around you, but also to work in partnership with people as well. So sometimes unusual partnerships to work in that way, but always an interest in people and encouraging people to achieve what we need to achieve.

[Interviewer]

Speaking of working with others, there were lots of nods in the service at St Paul's to the wider Anglican Communion. You'll, of course, be aware of some of the response in some churches around the world to your election that have been negative. There are those who are even talking about electing what looks like rival leadership within the Anglican Communion. What is your message to those clergy, those churches?

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

I've received a lot of support across the Anglican Communion, but I recognise there are those that find my appointment difficult and the sense for me that I have always understood that people may find my appointment as a woman difficult in the church. And what I hope to do is to be able to provide a space where I can offer hospitality to people, where I can listen to what their concerns are. And in A sense, find some way in which we can at least have partnership together in that way. But I'd also. I would, above all want them to understand that I do hear their concerns and from which they're coming from, but to find some way in which we can at least share hospitality.

[Interviewer]

Your role in the Anglican Communion is one of first among equals. If there is a rival first among equals that is elected. Have you thought through, talked through, what a relationship might look like between you and them?

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

I think one of the real privileges of this role is the Anglican Communion, and I'm approaching it in the same way as I approaching looking after the Diocese of Canterbury or the Church of England, is around doing it in partnership. So already I have met with the five regional primates and my conversation with them is that I want to share ministry with them and also that I hope to meet with them again up in the run, up to my installation. So, first and foremost, I'm trying to build that collaboration with the regional primates that are there, but also already meeting with a larger number of bishops within the Anglican Communion. So whenever you start a new role, you have to know and be known. And that, first and foremost is what I'm doing over these months, is how do people know me? How do I know them? How can we build that collaboration and partnership together?

[Interviewer]

So there are those who've expressed their opposition to your election because of their theological beliefs. There are others who have expressed their opposition because of a record on safeguarding, not just because you were a senior member of the Church in recent years, which haven't been good years in terms of dealing with safeguarding necessarily, but also because of personal implications in the way you've handled safeguarding particular cases. As Bishop of London, what is your message to those people?

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

I said on the day of my announcement that all of us should be open to having the light shone on what we do. And coming in, as the Archbishop of Canterbury, I recognise, rightly so, that there is greater scrutiny on me and the actions that I have undertaken. And I will reiterate my commitment to safeguarding, particularly to listening to the victims and survivors of abuse. And I have over the years, and London is evidence of this, of increasing resources into safeguarding, ensuring that our procedures are better and also pastoral to people, but also we increasingly listen to the voice of survivors and victims. But I also commit to. To ensuring that we have independence, independence in safeguarding, both in scrutiny but also in operations as well. So I recommit to ensuring that we move forward to build on the improvement that we have seen we should not be complacent. And I know that we need to do more.

[Interviewer]

Well, you talk about scrutiny and you talk about independence, but the decision that there was no case to answer in the specific case that it was alleged you were implicated in, that decision was taken by the Archbishop of York. That's not going to look like scrutiny or independence to people outside.

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

Part of the clergy disciplinary measure is that there is always the right to appeal. And that right of appeal is to a president of tribunal who is independent. I have spoken before about improving the clergy disciplinary measure and proposals are going to this Synod in February to work on that. So there is independence in the system and there are further improvements being put in place.

[Interviewer]

You mentioned Synod. One issue that is going to be high on the agenda is the issue of blessings, standalone blessings for same sex couples. That is something that you supported in the past. It's something that Synod voted, approved. And yet that process has faltered and will finally come to an end in many respects. People will now be looking, they have been, as Bishop of London, have been looking at your leadership, they will be looking at your leadership on this issue as well as someone who has supported that. And knowing those who have waited for a long time for the Church to take strides for forward when it comes to equality. What is the next move that you would support on looking into this issue?

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

The proposals coming to Synod in a sense confirm the decisions that were made in February 2023 then and we reinforce it. The House of Bishops commended prayers to be said, prayers of blessings and thanksgiving for same sex couples. That was the first time that that been made possible. And having spoken to couples who have already experienced those prayers as part of an existing service, I know how much that means to them. So this February we will confirm that that was our decision. And what it will also do is outline the steps that would need to take place if there were standalone services and also on a range of other issues. So my role as the Archbishop of Canterbury is to ensure that that process goes through, that we listen to Synod and that we then respond to the decisions that Synod makes.

[Interviewer]

But you support, you would support essentially standalone services of blessing for same sex couples.

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

So in 2023, I moved the motion that supported prayers of blessing and thanksgiving within existing services for same sex couples. And I am very grateful that that decision was made. I'm very grateful that same sex couples can have those blessings within existing services.

[Interviewer]

What's your feeling about standalone services?

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

So the process that is going in February is outlining what needs to happen if the next step were to be same standalone services of blessing and thanksgiving for same sex couple. As the Archbishop of Canterbury, I see my role at the moment is to listen to what Synod has to say about that and to continue to hold that space within the Church of England where there are a range of different views on this issue.

[Interviewer]

So do you feel you can't talk about what your personal view is on this?

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

As the Archbishop of Canterbury, one of the I suppose one of those things that I want to offer is how you shape further that space where people of different views on the issue of same sex blessings can operate and to speak about it. And so therefore I feel that that's my role is to hold that space.

[Alim McBoul]

You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

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[Alim McBoul]

The ceremony confirming Dame Sarah Mullally as Archbishop was held at St Paul's Cathedral in London on a cold January day. Parts of the ceremony have their origins dating back to the creation of the Church of England in 1533, and are a blend of legal process and religious service. At one point, St. Paul's Cathedral was in effect turned into a courthouse, with the new archbishop being represented by an attorney as she took her oaths.

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

I'm Sarah Elizabeth Mulally, Bishop of London, elected Archbishop of Canterbury. Do you swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles iii, his heirs and successors?

[Alim McBoul]

One of the newer aspects of the ceremony was the inclusion of a wide range of voices from across the Church and also Anglican churches globally. Among those elements was a Portuguese reading, a nod to associations with Anglican churches in Angola and Mozambique, and also a South African Xhosa hymn. The Church said this was done as a reminder of who was joining in prayer for Dame Sarah and the people should be called to lead and serve. And that includes Anglicans around the world. Anglicanism, of course, spread through colonialism and the Church of England had its impact throughout the British Empire. Some of that impact is now considered shameful. In relation to that point, let's return to my conversation with Dame Sarah Mullally, the new Archbishop of Canterbury.

[Interviewer]

One of the other issues that's arisen in recent weeks is the issue of reparative justice. Given that the amount that the Church was involved in the past in slavery investing, as it did in the South Sea Company that transported slaves and other ways in which it benefited from slavery, there has been talk for years, there have been discussions, there has been investigation as to how to spend money on some projects in some kind of reparative measure. They again seem to have faltered. What is the way that you again will take that forward?

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

Well, the Church of England has to take seriously its role and the part we played in the transportation of enslaved people. And, as always, the Church has had to not only take seriously our role, but also act in a way that is about justice and about mercy. And certainly the Spire Project seeks to try and, in a sense, provide a just and a merciful way forward. And the money and the projects for that will go to some of our most deprived communities in the churches. So, certainly, I am supportive of that. But alongside that, recognise that we've put £1.6 billion over the next three years into our parishes. So, in a sense, Project Spire goes alongside what we're doing for our parishes and our church.

[Interviewer]

There are those who've raised concerns about the fact that not everyone will feel that money they've given as charitable donations goes to these projects. What is your response to those who've raised that as an issue?

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

Well, the Project Spire does not take money away from parishes and our chaplaincies. And we have made this commitment of 1.6 billion pounds over the next three years, which, for the first time is allocated in a way that people wanted us to do it. We did this huge listening exercise to say, how do people want, in a sense, the Church Commissioner's money to be allocated? So this £1.6 million is going to some of our most lowest income communities. It's going into the places where clergy and members of our congregations have said they want it, around stipends and around pensions to support our clergy. So there is money going into parishes and chaplains here, and I continue to absolutely give my support to supporting the places that make the real difference in our communities.

[Interviewer]

One last issue I want to raise, which is around something that you spoke passionately about in the past, assisted dying. The Lords is in the process of looking at amendments. It's looking like it could even get to the point where the debates will be timed out. Would that, I suppose, suit you? I mean, for. For the debate to be timed out, rather than sort of go against something that the general population has shown in lots of polls that they want.

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

I'm conscious that the topic of assisted dying affects people in many ways and I'm conscious that it impacts people also. The debate around assisted dying has meant that we've talked much more about death, which I think is a very positive thing. It helps us not only to deal with those bereavements we've experienced, but also manage for our own death. And certainly the House of Lords has a role in Parliament to properly scrutinise legislation. And therefore that's what's happening at the moment, is there is a process around the right legislation of what is a very complex bill that probably has one of the most significant shifts in our society that we probably in our generation have ever seen. So. So it's absolutely right that the House of Lords takes their role for scrutiny absolutely seriously and properly, and give the time to these complex amendments to ensure that the right decisions are made.

[Interviewer]

Now that you are Archbishop of Canterbury, do you see your role as bridge building, holding things together rather than laying out what you feel is the principled way forward, or is that a tussle?

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

I suppose I feel called to the role of the Archbishop of Canterbury, in a sense, with who I am. And I have to work that role out within integrity. And my role has always been to, first of all listen to God, but to listen to other people, that we work in partnership. But I do know, as I have done in other roles that I have undertaken, taken, that there will be moments where I have to either make a decision or I have to offer a view, and I will do that. But I do that, I think, with prayerful and theological underpinning and having listened to people. So, you know, let's do it in partnership. I have mentioned, I think it's an African proverb that says if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And so my desire is to go far and together.

[Interviewer]

You have talked in the past, others have talked in the past about some levels of misogyny in the church, that it can be a bit of a boys club, that they can be microaggressions. How will you navigate that?

[Dame Sarah Mullally]

I know I have been very grateful for the support of a whole range of people, including men, in my ministry. But it is fair to say that I have, both in my secular role as well as in the church, experienced a misogyny at times. And I think that I've learned it's the first thing you have to talk about it so that you bring it out into the open. I also think there's something around talking on a one to one basis as well, because some people may not experience it. So in a sense I will continue to do that. I will talk to people individually if I experience it, but also to speak of it. And I'm conscious that being in this role, it's important for me to speak of it because there are some that don't necessarily have the status or the power of this role and feel more hesitant to do it. But certainly as a Church of England, we have seen many changes over the years and I commit myself to making an environment where all people can flourish, which is safer for all.

[Alim McBoul]

Thank you for listening to the interview. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with Hind Kabawat, Syria's only woman minister, and Nigel Casey, the UK's ambassador to Russia.

[Interviewer]

Until next time, bye for now.

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