Podcast Summary: The Interview (BBC World Service)

Episode: David Grossman: isolating Israel is not the answer
Date: October 21, 2025
Host: Tim Franks
Guest: David Grossman (Renowned Israeli author, peace activist, critic of Israel's government)

Overview

In this deeply reflective episode, Israel's most prominent living novelist, David Grossman, discusses the current crisis facing Israel and the Palestinians in the wake of the October 7th attacks and the war in Gaza. Grossman considers his own controversial use of the term “genocide” regarding Israel's actions, the international community’s response (especially calls to isolate Israel), and the prospects—and failures—of political solutions to the conflict. Across the conversation, Grossman shares his sense of heartbreak, caution, and a quest for nuance in the face of brutality, polarization, and despair.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Grossman’s Use of “Genocide” and Heartbreak (02:47–05:03)

• On his choice of words:
  Grossman acknowledges the weight and impact of calling Israel's actions "genocide" in his August interview. He says he used the term "heartbreakingly" and underlines that Israel, as a nation, was meant to be so different.

  "It’s heartbreaking that it’s even a possibility, it’s even an option that Israel or the name of Israel will be connected to genocide. We meant to be so different from that. And we find ourselves in the opposite place, a place of cruelty and brutality."
  (David Grossman, 02:47)

• On revisiting his stance:
  Grossman expresses a profound fatigue and sorrow about being forced to debate such terms, wishing for a reality where the question is moot.

  "I don't want to talk about it anymore. I don't want to make the words the major thing that I relate to."
  (David Grossman, 03:53)

On Calls to Isolate Israel & the Impact of Boycotts (05:03–11:57)

• Rejecting Boycott and Isolation:
  Grossman strongly opposes international movements to boycott or isolate Israel, arguing that such steps would increase entrenchment, hostility, and extremism within Israeli society.

  "To isolate Israel or to punish Israel will be the most unresponsible and unacceptable step... what we need is dialogue, is having a conversation."
  (David Grossman, 05:46)

• Danger of International Hatred:
  Grossman describes a "malicious glee" and "brutal hatred" he perceives in institutional critiques of Israel, distinguishing between legitimate criticism and deep-seated bias or prejudice.

  "There is this nuance or this air of hating Israel, of prejudices [against] Israel, of creating reality that is diabolic and demonic and has very little to do with us."
  (David Grossman, 07:38)

• Existential Insecurity:
  He questions why Israel alone seems repeatedly forced to justify its very right to exist.

  "Who has the right to tell me if I have the right to exist? I exist. I am. I'm not dependent on your goodwill or bad will."
  (David Grossman, 10:25)

The Two-State Solution & Political Maturity (14:34–17:36)

• Pessimism About Two-State Feasibility:
  Grossman doubts that Israelis would voluntarily grant Palestinians half the land, and sees current conditions as too toxic for a shared state.

  "It will not happen. Maybe after 50 years if we learn to live together side by side... then will be the time to test other daring political solutions. But... you cannot really believe that they will start to collaborate in a political maturity and in a vision maturity. They will not."
  (David Grossman, 14:54)

• On the Israeli-Palestinian Citizens Example:
  Grossman notes the relative maturity shown by Palestinian citizens of Israel, stating this as a potential model, but warns that if their demographic significance ever threatened the Jewish majority, the reaction could turn violent and exclusionary.

  "If the Israeli Palestinians will be threatening the majority, this majority, the Jewish majority that I belong to, will behave in a very violent way. We should not allow it to happen."
  (David Grossman, 17:36)

• Overlooked Suffering:
  He points out that initiatives like the Abraham Accords ignore the dignity, deprivation, and history of suffering among Palestinians.

Regional Politics & Power Realities (19:25–21:04)

• Cynicism and the “Real World”:
  The interviewer raises the idea that brute power and shifting alliances with surrounding Arab countries might render Israel secure despite outcries over its actions.

  "It may not be a very moral world, but actually this is the real world."
  (Tim Franks / Interviewer, 20:36)

• Grossman’s Rejection of Power-Only Logic:
  Grossman mourns a future where Israeli society is shaped solely by suspicion and the trauma of violence, foreseeing increased fanaticism and a gulf between citizens and reality.

  "From now on, the need to be on the alert all the time, to live our life on the sword or by the sword, to be suspicious and hateful and feeling cornered more and more... It's not the beautiful dream that we had."
  (David Grossman, 21:04)

On Hope and Moral Survival (24:09–25:40)

• Grossman’s Parable of Hope:
  Grossman shares a parable about a protester outside the White House during the Vietnam war to illustrate his view on resisting despair and moral decay—not to change the world, but to prevent it from changing one’s own values.

  "I just make sure that the world does not change me. And I think this is maybe the utmost we can aspire to hope for in this current time... to keep ourselves as we wanted to be, to be ourselves in a way that will not make us ashamed of the way our country behaves."
  (David Grossman, 24:09)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On heartbreak and language:

  “It’s heartbreaking that it’s even a possibility... that Israel will be connected to genocide. We meant to be so different from that.”
  (David Grossman, 02:47)

• On isolation and collective psychology:

  “To isolate Israel... will be the most unresponsible and unacceptable step. To boycott Israel, for example... is a huge mistake because what we need is dialogue.”
  (David Grossman, 05:46)

• On perceived global animosity:

  “Why is it that we are not having the existential security, the solidity of existence? Why [do] other countries think they have the right to deprive us of this?”
  (David Grossman, 11:14)

• On the risk for Israel’s future:

  “The more civil [society] will become, the more suspicious we shall be... shaped by fear and suspicion and violence... It’s not the beautiful dream that we had.”
  (David Grossman, 21:04)

• Parable of moral constancy:

  “I just make sure that the world does not change me.”
  (David Grossman, 24:09)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:47 Discussing the use of "genocide" and its implications
• 05:03 Response to calls to boycott and isolate Israel
• 08:30 Examination of international attitudes and anti-Israel sentiment
• 14:34 Viability and challenges of the two-state solution
• 19:25 Regional alliances, power politics, and the marginalization of the Palestinian issue
• 21:04 Social consequences within Israel—fear, fanaticism, and loss of vision
• 24:09 Parable about hope, resistance, and retaining moral identity

Flow & Tone

The conversation is earnest, introspective, and at times somber. Grossman’s voice is one of pained idealism, always calling for nuance, dialogue, and self-examination even as he acknowledges the immense challenges and the low ebb of hope. The interviewer pushes him, but respectfully, seeking to illuminate both the complexities of the conflict and Grossman’s role as a conscience for his country.

Summary Takeaway

David Grossman offers both a lamentation and a warning: isolation will only deepen Israel’s pathologies, while real hope can only emerge from dialogue, nuance, and self-examination. While he sees little immediate basis for optimism, he insists on the moral challenge of not letting the world’s cruelty, or Israel’s suffering, distort its foundational values.