David Grossman: isolating Israel is not the answer

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: The Interview (BBC World Service)

Episode: David Grossman: isolating Israel is not the answer
Date: October 21, 2025
Host: Tim Franks
Guest: David Grossman (Renowned Israeli author, peace activist, critic of Israel's government)

---

Overview

In this deeply reflective episode, Israel's most prominent living novelist, David Grossman, discusses the current crisis facing Israel and the Palestinians in the wake of the October 7th attacks and the war in Gaza. Grossman considers his own controversial use of the term “genocide” regarding Israel's actions, the international community’s response (especially calls to isolate Israel), and the prospects—and failures—of political solutions to the conflict. Across the conversation, Grossman shares his sense of heartbreak, caution, and a quest for nuance in the face of brutality, polarization, and despair.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Grossman’s Use of “Genocide” and Heartbreak (02:47–05:03)

• On his choice of words:
  Grossman acknowledges the weight and impact of calling Israel's actions "genocide" in his August interview. He says he used the term "heartbreakingly" and underlines that Israel, as a nation, was meant to be so different.

  "It’s heartbreaking that it’s even a possibility, it’s even an option that Israel or the name of Israel will be connected to genocide. We meant to be so different from that. And we find ourselves in the opposite place, a place of cruelty and brutality."
  (David Grossman, 02:47)

• On revisiting his stance:
  Grossman expresses a profound fatigue and sorrow about being forced to debate such terms, wishing for a reality where the question is moot.

  "I don't want to talk about it anymore. I don't want to make the words the major thing that I relate to."
  (David Grossman, 03:53)

On Calls to Isolate Israel & the Impact of Boycotts (05:03–11:57)

• Rejecting Boycott and Isolation:
  Grossman strongly opposes international movements to boycott or isolate Israel, arguing that such steps would increase entrenchment, hostility, and extremism within Israeli society.

  "To isolate Israel or to punish Israel will be the most unresponsible and unacceptable step... what we need is dialogue, is having a conversation."
  (David Grossman, 05:46)

• Danger of International Hatred:
  Grossman describes a "malicious glee" and "brutal hatred" he perceives in institutional critiques of Israel, distinguishing between legitimate criticism and deep-seated bias or prejudice.

  "There is this nuance or this air of hating Israel, of prejudices [against] Israel, of creating reality that is diabolic and demonic and has very little to do with us."
  (David Grossman, 07:38)

• Existential Insecurity:
  He questions why Israel alone seems repeatedly forced to justify its very right to exist.

  "Who has the right to tell me if I have the right to exist? I exist. I am. I'm not dependent on your goodwill or bad will."
  (David Grossman, 10:25)

The Two-State Solution & Political Maturity (14:34–17:36)

• Pessimism About Two-State Feasibility:
  Grossman doubts that Israelis would voluntarily grant Palestinians half the land, and sees current conditions as too toxic for a shared state.

  "It will not happen. Maybe after 50 years if we learn to live together side by side... then will be the time to test other daring political solutions. But... you cannot really believe that they will start to collaborate in a political maturity and in a vision maturity. They will not."
  (David Grossman, 14:54)

• On the Israeli-Palestinian Citizens Example:
  Grossman notes the relative maturity shown by Palestinian citizens of Israel, stating this as a potential model, but warns that if their demographic significance ever threatened the Jewish majority, the reaction could turn violent and exclusionary.

  "If the Israeli Palestinians will be threatening the majority, this majority, the Jewish majority that I belong to, will behave in a very violent way. We should not allow it to happen."
  (David Grossman, 17:36)

• Overlooked Suffering:
  He points out that initiatives like the Abraham Accords ignore the dignity, deprivation, and history of suffering among Palestinians.

Regional Politics & Power Realities (19:25–21:04)

• Cynicism and the “Real World”:
  The interviewer raises the idea that brute power and shifting alliances with surrounding Arab countries might render Israel secure despite outcries over its actions.

  "It may not be a very moral world, but actually this is the real world."
  (Tim Franks / Interviewer, 20:36)

• Grossman’s Rejection of Power-Only Logic:
  Grossman mourns a future where Israeli society is shaped solely by suspicion and the trauma of violence, foreseeing increased fanaticism and a gulf between citizens and reality.

  "From now on, the need to be on the alert all the time, to live our life on the sword or by the sword, to be suspicious and hateful and feeling cornered more and more... It's not the beautiful dream that we had."
  (David Grossman, 21:04)

On Hope and Moral Survival (24:09–25:40)

• Grossman’s Parable of Hope:
  Grossman shares a parable about a protester outside the White House during the Vietnam war to illustrate his view on resisting despair and moral decay—not to change the world, but to prevent it from changing one’s own values.

  "I just make sure that the world does not change me. And I think this is maybe the utmost we can aspire to hope for in this current time... to keep ourselves as we wanted to be, to be ourselves in a way that will not make us ashamed of the way our country behaves."
  (David Grossman, 24:09)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On heartbreak and language:

  “It’s heartbreaking that it’s even a possibility... that Israel will be connected to genocide. We meant to be so different from that.”
  (David Grossman, 02:47)

• On isolation and collective psychology:

  “To isolate Israel... will be the most unresponsible and unacceptable step. To boycott Israel, for example... is a huge mistake because what we need is dialogue.”
  (David Grossman, 05:46)

• On perceived global animosity:

  “Why is it that we are not having the existential security, the solidity of existence? Why [do] other countries think they have the right to deprive us of this?”
  (David Grossman, 11:14)

• On the risk for Israel’s future:

  “The more civil [society] will become, the more suspicious we shall be... shaped by fear and suspicion and violence... It’s not the beautiful dream that we had.”
  (David Grossman, 21:04)

• Parable of moral constancy:

  “I just make sure that the world does not change me.”
  (David Grossman, 24:09)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:47 Discussing the use of "genocide" and its implications
• 05:03 Response to calls to boycott and isolate Israel
• 08:30 Examination of international attitudes and anti-Israel sentiment
• 14:34 Viability and challenges of the two-state solution
• 19:25 Regional alliances, power politics, and the marginalization of the Palestinian issue
• 21:04 Social consequences within Israel—fear, fanaticism, and loss of vision
• 24:09 Parable about hope, resistance, and retaining moral identity

---

Flow & Tone

The conversation is earnest, introspective, and at times somber. Grossman’s voice is one of pained idealism, always calling for nuance, dialogue, and self-examination even as he acknowledges the immense challenges and the low ebb of hope. The interviewer pushes him, but respectfully, seeking to illuminate both the complexities of the conflict and Grossman’s role as a conscience for his country.

---

Summary Takeaway

David Grossman offers both a lamentation and a warning: isolation will only deepen Israel’s pathologies, while real hope can only emerge from dialogue, nuance, and self-examination. While he sees little immediate basis for optimism, he insists on the moral challenge of not letting the world’s cruelty, or Israel’s suffering, distort its foundational values.

---

Transcript

[Tim Franks]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[BritBox Advertiser]

Vanity Fair calls Britbox a delicious streamer. Collider says everyone should be watching. Catch Britain's next best series with Britbox. Streamer claim new originals like Code of Silence.

[Sitecore Advertiser]

You Read Lips right and Lynley, based.

[BritBox Advertiser]

On the best selling mystery series CI Linley. Take it from here and don't miss the new season of Karen Pirie coming this October.

[Sitecore Advertiser]

You don't look like.

[David Grossman]

Please see, I'll take that as a compliment.

[BritBox Advertiser]

See it differently when you stream the best of British TV with BritBox. Watch with a free trial today.

[Sitecore Advertiser]

The customer journey isn't just changing. The journey is change. New ideas spread in an instant. Expectations rise overnight. Decisions are made in the blink of an eye. That's why companies need sitecore. We put your brand in the moment right when your customer is ready to act. So every message feels personal, timely and makes your brand unforgettable. The journey is change. Sitecore moves with it. See [e-mail] journey.

[Tim Franks]

Hello, I'm the BBC NewsHour presenter Tim Franks and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC People shaping our world from all over the world.

[David Grossman]

There have been so many disagreements between me and my family.

[Sitecore Advertiser]

Putting on a show that is what it means to be Lady Gaga.

[Tim Franks]

Only the things that you can't solve.

[David Grossman]

With government and private sector is where.

[Tim Franks]

You bring philanthropy in.

[David Grossman]

There's no place in the world where women are equal. Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy.

[Tim Franks]

For this interview, I've been talking to Israel's most prominent living author, David Grossman. Since publishing his first novel over 40 years ago, his works have been translated into more than 30 languages. Many deal with the issues around the Israeli Palestinian conflict. David Grossman won the Booker International Prize for literature in 2017, and he's been a vocal, long standing critic of the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, expressing concern over the direction the country is being led in. And then he went further than ever before. In August, in an interview with the Italian newspaper La Repubblica, the 71 year old described Israel's actions in Gaza as genocide, and he lamented that he'd been forced to reach that conclusion by the military campaign that had begun following the massacre led by Hamas of October 7th. It was a comment which caused ripples around the world.

[David Grossman]

What I said in this interview of two months ago, for me it's heartbreaking that it's even a possibility, it's an even option that Israel or the Name of Israel will be connected to genocide. We meant to be so different from that. And we find ourselves in the opposite place, a place of cruelty and brutality. I use this sharp word.

[Tim Franks]

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with David Grossman.

[Interviewer]

I do have to ask you about the word that you, I don't know, maybe reluctantly came to back in August, but the view that what Israel was committing in Gaza was a genocide, the most serious charge of all and of course a charge that is absolutely loaded with history for Jews. Having reached that conclusion in August, I'm sure you are aware of the huge reaction that that produced. What are your thoughts now?

[David Grossman]

Yes, I'm aware of the reactions and the echoes. I think that now the reality that I disrelated to 2 months ago has been changed somewhat. We are not in the same place. The reality is not in the same place. I am not. But what I feel more above everything is that I don't want to talk about it anymore. I don't want to make the words the major thing that I relate to. I don't want to live in a reality that ask these questions. And what I said in this interview of two months ago, for me it's heartbreaking that it's even a possibility, it's even an option that Israel or the name of Israel will be connected to genocide. We are meant to be so different from that and we find ourselves in the opposite place, a place of cruelty and brutality. I use this word, this sharp word.

[Interviewer]

You talk about Israel as a place of cruelty. And I mean, that's language that you've used for a long time now. And how it has gone against the early dreams of it being a light unto the nations as somehow an idyllic place. What do you think the rest of the world should do now? How should it hold Israel? Regard Israel, deal with Israel? Because there are some who say the only way to make the whole of Israel listen in a way and change its behavior is to isolate it completely through a movement of boycott and divestment from and sanctions on. What do you say to that argument?

[David Grossman]

To isolate Israel or to punish Israel will be the the most unresponsible and unacceptable step. To boycott Israel, for example. I think it's a huge mistake because what we need is dialogue, is having a conversation with countries around us and in the world. You hear me hesitating. I'm still undead under your definition of Israel is a place of cruelty. There is cruelty in Israel, but it's not the place of cruel. There are other countries who are Much more cruel than us and behave in much more terrible way than ourselves. Yet I, as an Israeli, I want to have my country. I want it to behave in a different way, different values or criteria. And I don't want to collaborate with this blackening of Israel without even thinking of the nuances of what it can do make and how it can influence the Israelis. Because one optional, possible, likable response to the isolation of Israel is that Israel will become more and more entrenched, more and more hostile, aggressive, all those things that can produce not the best society, so to say the least. And I very much want to believe that what we are going through here is reversible, that after the shock of October 7th will pass or fade out a little. How can it pass? How can it fade out? But if it will have another place in our society, then we'll start a process of, hopefully, recovery. And for that we need a dialogue. We need people whom we trust. And it's. It's a question, how long will it take until we shall again feel that we are part of the international community? Because there are so many attacks on this notion, so many hatred is directed at us and prevents any dialogue. And part of the change that we must undergo depends not on us for a change, but on the people who are boycotting us, hating us, treating us without any nuances, without any understanding of the complexity of our situation. There is something that I start to feel in the last months that bothers me and annoys me. This is the attitude of nations, of papers, of universities, who are really, not only criticizing us, but really hating us. It's kind of an exposed and brutal hatred without any understanding, without any nuances. And this is a topic that the nations, those nations, those organizations should ask themselves. What is the meaning of this malicious glee that suddenly is sprouting everywhere against Israel? What does it mean? Tell us what it portrays about us by others? Shall we at all collaborate with these hateful approaches towards us? Can they be useful for us if we want to recover? Because I feel that something very, very primal starts to be exposed in the last year or two years, something that is dangerous, that reflects the depth of the relationship towards Israel. The depth of the relationship, it can be good, it can be useful, it can be building up, it can empower us. But it's also there is this nuance or this air of hating Israel, of prejudices Israel, of creating reality that is diabolic and demonic and has very little to do with us. Because, you see, there are other countries who are doing terrible things and I don't want to justify by that what we are doing, but there are countries who are much worse violent and hateful. And there are so many international conflicts right now in the world, but none is related to with such deep hatred. None is related to with an approach that is almost calling for the elimination of us. And it's always struck me, you know, I hear that President Trump or other presidents and kings and leaders, they say that Israel has the right to exist. And we feel very good with Israelis that this person, this leader said that we have the right to exist. And then I asked myself, come on, who has the right to tell me if I have the right to exist? I exist. I am. I'm not dependent on your goodwill or bad will. I am here because this is my place. This is my home. This is the place we originated as a religion first, and then as a language and culture and so many other things. No one can deprive us of that. No one can give us, grant us or deprive us of the right to be with capital B. And it's also a question that should be asked by other nations, not by us. Why is it like that? Why is it that we are not having the existential security, the solidity of existence? Why other countries think they have the right to deprive us of this?

[Tim Franks]

You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service people shaping our world from all over the world.

[Energy Trust of Oregon Advertiser]

At Energy Trust of Oregon, we understand that energy isn't just what happens when you flip a switch, it's what happens afterwards. It's a home that can provide both shelter and peace of mind. It's a business that can run more efficiently and keep their dream alive. And it's communities that can thrive today and flourish tomorrow. That's energy. And that's why we partner with local utility companies to help you save energy and lower costs. For cash incentives and resources that can help power your life, visit energytrust.org.

[Chip Kleiniksel]

Companies have more access to their data than ever before. So why is it still so difficult to use it to drive decisions? I'm Chip Kleiniksel, host of Resilient Edge Business Vitality podcast, paid and presented by Deloitte.

[Sam Suresh]

The easy answer is everybody thinks it's about data volume or complexity, but really, Chip, it's about the strategy, culture and governance.

[Chip Kleiniksel]

Sam Suresh from Deloitte sees this pattern everywhere. Data swamps that suck you in to the nitty gritty instead of guiding executive decision making with precision. And another challenge, an old tech principle that is as relevant as ever today.

[Sam Suresh]

Garbage in, garbage out, Right? It's a very unfortunate reason why that principle has continued to stand the test of time.

[David Grossman]

I think in the age of AI, I will double down on that and.

[Sam Suresh]

Say Garbage in is Garbage Out Square.

[Chip Kleiniksel]

That's Satya Jayadev from Skyworks Solutions. Garbage Out Squared is about how AI amplifies bad data exponentially. Not everyone's getting sucked in, though. Companies that are winning are turning data into a competitive advantage.

[Sam Suresh]

These are the organizations that treat data as a core business asset instead of a technical byproduct. And that requires a mindset shift.

[Chip Kleiniksel]

What separates companies that turn data into profit from those in what SAHM calls POC Purgatory? The full episode is now available on the Resilient Edge feed. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tim Franks]

For this episode of the interview, I'm speaking to David Grossman. He's a celebrated author, certainly Israel's most famous living novelist, and one who's won a great number of awards around the world. He's also been a lifelong peace activist. His most recent book, published in English, came out last year, a collection of essays called the Thinking Heart on Israel and Palestine. Let's return to my conversation.

[Interviewer]

One of the things that people talk about is, and I know that in the past you've said look, it's not workable, but the two state solution has not proved workable so far. If the Palestinians and Israelis can't work out how to divide the land, they will have to work out how to share the land.

[David Grossman]

Yeah, but do you really see us, the Israelis with all our abilities, grant voluntarily a half of this country to the Palestinians? It will not happen. It will not happen. Maybe after 50 years if we learn to live together side by side in the two state solution and we should start to behave politically mature as we are not, then will be the time to test other daring political solutions. But these two peoples who are crushed and distorted by years of animosity and hatred, you cannot really believe that they will start to collaborate in a political maturity and in a vision maturity. They will not. I can only imagine how will the Israeli part of this one state solution, how will it treat the Palestinians? Because we shall become more suspicious, more tough. We shall not allow the Palestinians to enjoy real freedom, real dignity of life. They will not have it if we are trying to create a state for them and a state for us and with a lot of courage and wisdom and far sightedness which we don't have. But again, give me a better people's and I'll embrace it.

[Interviewer]

I wonder if You've got, I mean, dare I say it, I wonder if you are suffering a failure of imagination though, because I mean, there are some who would point to, look what happens inside Israel's internationally recognized borders. You have 20% of your population is Palestinian, Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. And yes, there is discrimination. And yes, in 2018 a law was passed that many people saw as being essentially a racist law that relegated those Palestinians to a sort of second class status. But it works up to a point. They are part of the political system. They've even recently been a minority, part of the government. That perhaps, perhaps there is a model here. Yes, of course it will take time and yes, of course there are suspicions, but, but this idea of a two state solution, it may have support from outside, but that is again, that's just because so far no one has come up with a better idea.

[David Grossman]

Yes, first I want to mention that the way that the Israeli Palestinians, this minority of 20%, the way they behaved in the last two years of the, of the war, were very impressive and very mature. And this is a model that can be adopted. But if the Israeli Palestinians will be threatening the majority, this majority, the Jewish majority that I belong to, will behave in a very violent way. We should not allow it to happen. If you look at the political behavior of most of the parties in the Knesset, in our Parliament, you see that the Palestinians are still pushed aside, overlooked by the way, like most of the situations conditioned of the Abraham Accord, that is a piece of the rich and it ignores totally the misery of the Palestinians, their situation, the deprivation of their dignity, of their hopes for the future. And if, if you ignore that, you ignore life, you ignore the complexity of life and you ignore, you ignore the right of the Palestinians to have their dignity and their hopes and their ability to live normal life. Because for God's sake, these people, they have been treated in a terrible way in the last century. It's not only by us, it's because by the Jordanians and by the Egyptians and by the Turks. And there is a tough price that the people pays for being so crushed for so many years.

[Interviewer]

You mentioned the Abraham Accords. And there is a view that actually what has happened as a result of this terrible war over the last two years is that those countries in the region, those Arab countries in the region, actually, maybe, although they talk the language of saying that they want a fair settlement for the Palestinians, there is a view among some, I mean, they're not even ultra nationalists in Israel, but just, I would say people who would describe themselves as hard Nosed centrists who say, actually, you know, Israel, it's not so isolated after the end of this war because it is surrounded by countries where there is a respect for might, for power, a respect for what Israel has done to alter the balance of power in Lebanon, to have humbled Iran, to have caused an implosion in Syria, to have smashed the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza. And it may not be a very.

[Tim Franks]

Moral world, but actually this is the real world.

[Interviewer]

And so your plea for the Palestinians no longer to be ignored, actually, people will talk about the Palestinians for a while, but then the real world will intervene and Israel will be fine. Israel will just get along and the next cause will come along. So actually there isn't much hope of the paradigm shifting.

[David Grossman]

I like the way you describe it, but I'm afraid that the real world that you, as you called it, I'm not sure I want to live in such a world where that is dominated totally by power. And for us, the Israelis, it means to become more and more alerted, more and more prepared for the next war. And the more civil will become, the more suspicious we shall be. Also, because you have to acknowledge the mental price that we are all paying because of what happened to us, the way we have been taken by surprise in October 7th. And this means that from now on, the need to be on the alert all the time, to live our life on the sword or by the sword, to be suspicious and hateful and feeling cornered more and more. The Israel that I see in this part of Israel I deeply do not like is a country that is shaped by fear and suspicion and violence. It becomes more and more religious, more and more fanatic and fundamentalist. And in a way it's understandable, you know, if we want to analyze this behavior, even if we do not agree with it, it's understandable. People who has been taken by surprise in such a cruel, brutal way cannot really trust even reality. They are tired, they despair of the ability to change this reality. And they understand that the. The results of the the War of October would be growing fanaticism and fundamentalist. And there will be a growing void between the citizen, the average citizen, and the reality that he or she creates out of fear. And this void will not remain empty because there will be forces that are more decisive and extremists who will pour into this void and will kidnap our future and will hijack our reality and kidding up our children. It's not the beautiful dream that we had. And no one can allow himself to be innocent or naive about this reality.

[Tim Franks]

How do you change? How. How do you affect that change designation?

[Interviewer]

I mean, I don't know. I mean, given that. I'm not saying this in a way to denigrate at all what you are saying, but it is a message, it is a plea that you have been making for so long and it is unrequited. How does the narrative change?

[David Grossman]

There is very, very little feeling of hope. People sometimes ask me, what is your hope? What is your hope? As if I'm a carrier of hope. And I'm not. I'm not. There's this story that I love to tell about this man who, during the war in Vietnam, was standing every Friday in front of the White House. And one day a cynical journalist approached him and said, excuse me, sir, do you really think that by standing here you are going to change the world? Change the world? Asked the man. I have no intention of changing the world. I just make sure that the world does not change me. And I think this is maybe the utmost we can aspire to hope for in this current time. And this is to. To make sure that the world doesn't change us. That with all the temptation, the temptation of fear, the temptation of hatred, the temptation of everything that this terrible reality floods us with, we have to put some power to reject it, to maintain, to keep ourselves as we wanted to be, to be ourselves in. In a way that will not make us ashamed of the way our country behaves.

[Tim Franks]

Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the released Israeli Hot Hostage. Keith Siegel, Moazim Malik, chief executive of Save the Children uk, and the education campaigner Malala Yousafzai. Until the next time, Goodbye. For now.

[Sitecore Advertiser]

The customer journey isn't just changing, the journey is change. New ideas spread in an instant. Expectations rise overnight. Decisions are made in the blink of an eye. That's why companies need sitecore. We put your brand in the moment right when your customer is ready to act. So every message feels personal, timely and makes your brand unforgettable. The Journey is change. Sitecore moves with it. See [e-mail] journey.