Dominique de Villepin: Can Europe become a superpower in its own right?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Interview — Dominique de Villepin: Can Europe Become a Superpower in Its Own Right?
BBC World Service — March 12, 2025
Host: Stephen Sackur | Guest: Dominique de Villepin, former French Prime Minister and Foreign Minister

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Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, Stephen Sackur interviews Dominique de Villepin, a distinguished French statesman and diplomat, on the future of Europe in the face of shifting global power dynamics. With the United States under President Donald Trump taking a more transactional and less ideologically allied stance towards Europe, de Villepin explores whether Europe can establish itself as a security and geopolitical superpower independent of the US. The conversation delves into Europe’s internal challenges, defense ambitions, the threat to democracy, and de Villepin’s vision for Europe’s strategic future.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The US-Europe Relationship Under Trump (02:42–06:04)

• De Villepin's Assessment:

  • Describes a "big historical swing" in the US-Europe relationship, characterized by America's pivot away from traditional democratic values toward power politics, which he finds deeply concerning.
    • "Donald Trump is not defending the idea, the whole paradigm of freedom and democracy… power transaction... a vision of politics much closer to illiberal democracy." (03:16, de Villepin)
  • Draws parallels between Trump's rhetoric and those of authoritarian leaders, warning of historical precedents for catastrophe.

• Sackur’s Challenge:

  • Pushes back, questioning if de Villepin is exaggerating by labeling the US an “illiberal democracy” so early in Trump’s second term.
    • “Are you not in danger of a grave exaggeration?” (04:24, Sackur)

• De Villepin’s Response:

  • Asserts this is a process, not a sudden change, and cites growing influence of figures like Elon Musk and J.D. Vance as examples of a new, illiberal American identity emerging.

2. European Response and Limitations (06:04–10:03)

• Balancing Diplomacy and Caution:

  • De Villepin defends his outspoken approach as a duty, while acknowledging the realpolitik of leaders like Macron and Starmer engaging with Trump.
    • “If I were in power... I understand the position of EU leaders. They want an appeasement policy toward the US. I’m calling it appeasement.” (06:35, de Villepin)

• Increasing Doubts Around NATO:

  • He highlights how heavy reliance on the US for defense (specifically through NATO) is increasingly precarious—trust is waning.
    • "We have been relying on NATO... there is a big question mark today.” (07:19, de Villepin)

3. The Ukraine Dilemma and Europe’s Military Ambitions (07:48–12:08)

• Trump’s Stance on Ukraine:

  • De Villepin sees no evidence Trump is considering Ukrainian interests, implying Trump’s actions benefit Russia.
    • "He has already given to Russia almost everything Russia is waiting for." (08:11, de Villepin)

• Geopolitical Calculations:

  • Suggests Trump is using negotiations to weaken the China-Russia alliance, not to support European interests.
    • “The most interesting hypothesis is the US...using this negotiation as leverage to have Russia closer to the US and farther from China.” (08:32, de Villepin)

• Europe’s Ability to Fill the Gap:

  • He concedes it’s “very difficult” for Europe to substitute US support in the short term but views it as credible in the medium to long term.
    • “It is going to be very difficult, but it is credible on the middle term, long term.” (09:48, de Villepin)
  • Sackur criticizes France’s actual contributions to Ukraine and its lack of concrete action versus rhetoric.
    • “France... talks a lot. But France is full of posture, no action.” (10:18, Sackur)

4. Prospects for European Defense and Unity (12:08–17:08)

• Internal and External Threats:

  • De Villepin calls for “national unity” and “European unity,” stressing the importance of building an avant-garde group of action-minded nations.

• European Defense, Not European Army:

  • Clarifies he wants robust European defense cooperation, not a singular European army or shared nuclear command.
    • “I’m not talking about a European army, I’m talking about a European defense... nations, chosen nations, working together as an avant-garde.” (13:50, de Villepin)
  • Proposes a leading role for France, Germany, the UK, and others, with Germany now more committed.

• Leadership and Command:

  • Acknowledges the challenge of uniting countries with differing views and insists this transformation will be gradual:
    • “It is a process... It is more important to build up the response of Europe on solid basis than to go forward without any method.” (15:34, de Villepin)

• NATO's Future:

  • Insists NATO isn’t “dead,” but sees a European pillar becoming more important within NATO.
    • “We should be pragmatic—working on the European pillar, having a European Defence Organization.” (16:19, de Villepin)

5. Democracy, Populism, and External Influence (17:08–18:31)

• Populist Threats:

  • Warns of ideological forces within Europe supported by the US, aiming to destabilize European regimes.

• Strength Through Will:

  • De Villepin argues willpower and unity are more vital than material power.
    • “Power is not everything. Will is everything. This is the key, the will of the leaders and the will of the people.” (17:54, de Villepin)

6. Europe’s Moral Standing and Double Standards (18:31–21:34)

• Gaza and International Law:

  • Notes the taboo around criticizing Israel, calling it a “historical scandal” and stresses the need for consistency in applying international law and justice.
    • “When you look at the policy of Putin... and the position of the US Administration, they have something in common. They don’t respect limits… they don’t respect international law.” (19:28, de Villepin)
  • Warns that double standards damage Europe’s credibility globally.

• Europe as a Standard-Bearer:

  • Reasserts the importance of Europe defending humanism, universalism, and legal equality.

7. Can Europe Become a Superpower? (21:34–23:58)

• Duty, Not Destiny:

  • De Villepin sees the creation of an autonomous European power as a duty for world stability, not merely a possibility.
    • “It’s not a matter of chance. It’s a matter of duty. This is a necessity for the stability of the world.” (21:34, de Villepin)

• Checks on US Hegemony:

  • Expresses faith in American institutions to eventually limit a “bully policy,” but insists Europe must lead the ideological and security resistance.

• Personal Ambitions:

  • De Villepin rules out a presidential run but commits to fighting for Europe’s awakening and preservation.
    • “I have no personal ambition, but I want to be part of the battle to awaken the French people and European people. This is a battle which is a matter of survival.” (22:59, de Villepin)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On US Ideological Shift:
  “The big paradigm is power transaction... a vision of politics, which is much closer to illiberal democracy than liberal democracy.” (03:16, Dominique de Villepin)
• On European Defense Cooperation:
  “I’m not talking about a European army, I’m talking about a European defense.” (13:50, Dominique de Villepin)
• On the Role of Will:
  “Power is not everything. Will is everything.” (17:54, Dominique de Villepin)
• On Europe’s Mission:
  “It’s not a matter of chance. It’s a matter of duty. This is a necessity for the stability of the world.” (21:34, Dominique de Villepin)
• On Double Standards:
  “You see, we began to have a huge problem in Ukraine when people understood that we were applying double standard... we lose the respect in many emerging countries.” (19:09, Dominique de Villepin)
• On Leadership Ambitions:
  “I have no personal ambition, but I want to be part of the battle to awaken the French people and the European people.” (22:59, Dominique de Villepin)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:42 — Start of substantive interview; de Villepin diagnoses US-European rift
• 04:24 — Sackur challenges the “illiberal democracy” claim
• 07:48 — The Ukraine war: Trump’s motives and European options discussed
• 09:48 — Can Europe credibly replace US support for Ukraine?
• 13:50 — European defense: Coordination vs. integration debate
• 17:54 — The importance of political will and unity in Europe
• 19:02 — De Villepin on silencing criticism of Israel and double standards
• 21:34 — Europe’s duty to become a superpower and strategic actor
• 22:59 — De Villepin’s future role and call to action

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Conclusion

Dominique de Villepin delivers a passionate and urgent case for Europe’s strategic awakening, advocating for unity, commitment to democratic values, and pragmatic but ambitious defense cooperation. He challenges both European leaders and citizens to reject complacency and to assume the responsibility of shaping a stable, just, and independent European future in a multipolar and threatening world.

Transcript

[Dominique de Villepin]

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[Stephen Sackur]

Welcome to Hard Talk from the BBC World Service with me, Stephen Sacka. My guest in this interview, recorded in Paris on March 10, is an elder statesman of French politics and diplomacy whose Persona evokes memories of a bygone age of courtly manners and noblesse oblige. Dominique de Villepin, the son of a diplomat, sometime poet, served in the French foreign service before becoming a loyal aide and advisor to President Jacques Chirac. He gained international recognition when, as France's foreign minister in 2003, he delivered a powerful critique of America's impending invasion of Iraq to topple Saddam Hussein. De Villepin went on to serve as prime minister, but he lacked the common touch and failed in his bid to become president. Now France, like much of Europe, is consumed by a new set of foreign policy and security challenges precipitated by decisions taken in Washington. Donald Trump has turned 80 years of assumptions about the unbreakable bond between the US and Europe's democracies upside down. Trump is determined to end the war prompted by Russia's invasion of Ukraine. He's piling pressure on Kyiv in a way that seems to serve Vladimir Putin's interests. How should France and and its European partners respond? Is Europe capable of becoming a global security superpower in its own right? Well, Dominique de Bilpin joins me now. Welcome to Hard Talk.

[Dominique de Villepin]

Thank you for receiving me.

[Stephen Sackur]

It's great to be talking to you here in Paris. How would you characterize the relationship between the United States, led by Donald Trump, and Europe's democracies right now.

[Dominique de Villepin]

It is a big historical swing between the US And Europe. And of course, most of us do see the swing towards Ukraine, which is a huge issue and a big problem for all of us and for Ukraine. But I think there is a second aspect, which is the fact that the US Administration is making also a big swing on democracy. Donald Trump is not defending the idea, the whole paradigm of freedom and democracy. This is not at the center of the objective of the US Administration today. The big paradigm is power transaction and a vision of politics, which is much closer to, to illiberal democracy than liberal democracy. Listening to the State of the Union speech of Donald Trump, he talked about creating this new, fantastic civilization, advanced, free, dynamic civilization, but also dominant civilization. This is the kind of speech through history we have heard before and that has led the world to huge catastrophes. And that's where you can see a link with Donald Trump's speech and Vladimir Putin's speech.

[Stephen Sackur]

Let me stop you for just a second. Are you not in danger of a grave exaggeration? Donald Trump's second term is only weeks old and you've decided that suddenly the United States is an illiberal democracy?

[Dominique de Villepin]

No, I have not decided anything. We have seen that running for years, since the start of the first administration, and we have to consider that the second term is not on the same basis than the first one. Donald Trump is not alone. He has a program and he is working with people who also have an agenda.

[Stephen Sackur]

Are you saying that when you look at Trump today and the people around him, you see enemies?

[Dominique de Villepin]

I won't say enemy because I don't want to put them in a box, I'm saying.

[Stephen Sackur]

But you're putting them in the same box as Russia and China, by the sound of it.

[Dominique de Villepin]

I'm saying that there is a process which may lead to illiberal democracy, which may change completely the pattern of US Identity. And why? I'm saying that we have never seen through history, someone like Elon Musk so close to Donald Trump, someone like GD Vance, doing what they have done in the UK towards Germany, giving a hand to Alice Verde, the head of the AfD, pledging for a new vision for democracy and giving a lesson to Europe. We have never seen that before. I think that there is the risk of a process and we should not be blind to what is going on and the kind of new America we are seeing rising in front of us. And that's what I really want.

[Stephen Sackur]

But your own president, Emmanuel Macron, went to the White House to talk to Donald Trump. He made nice with Donald Trump, issued some warm words and got a slap on the back. The same with UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer. These are politicians in Europe who have to live in the real world. And their view is that whether they like it or not, they have to accept that Donald Trump is the elected President of the United States and they have to work with him. If they took your approach, they would be running for the exit.

[Dominique de Villepin]

I'm taking my approach because I have a duty as a citizen, a French citizen, a former Prime Minister. I have a duty.

[Stephen Sackur]

So what? Hang on. But you're not in power. If you were in power in France.

[Dominique de Villepin]

I'm going to answer both questions. My duty is to say there is a risk, a huge risk. Second, if I were in power, of course, I understand perfectly the position of most of the EU leaders. They want an appeasement policy toward the U.S. why?

[Stephen Sackur]

No, they don't call it appeasement policy. No, they want.

[Dominique de Villepin]

No, I'm calling it. I'm calling it. This is my word. Why? Why? Because they know that we should try to have as much as possible of opportunities to work with the US as we can. Because, of course, we have an inheritance, which is NATO. We have a strategy of being an ally of the U.S. and if we can find a way to have the US supporting Ukraine for. For a little longer, we should take it. But I think everybody has understood that we have been relying on NATO and on a friendship with the US that is something where there is a big question mark today. There is a big doubt.

[Stephen Sackur]

As you look at the Ukraine crisis today, do you think that Donald Trump, in essence, has flipped sides and is working alongside Vladimir Putin for a solution which suits Vladimir Putin?

[Dominique de Villepin]

Well, I have seen no evidence of Donald Trump willing to take into account the interest of Ukraine in the negotiation. I've seen everything he has taken as the support to Russia and nothing as question mark raised towards Russia in terms of concession. He has already given to Russia almost everything Russia is waiting for.

[Stephen Sackur]

So explain it to me. Why do you think Trump is doing that?

[Dominique de Villepin]

So why? This is the big question. I think there are different hypotheses. The most interesting hypothesis is the US and Donald Trump's administration using this negotiation as a leverage to have Russia closer to the US and farther from China. So using the negotiation as a leverage to do what Nixon and Kissinger have done at the beginning of the 1970s is to separate what looks very much like the two allies, dangerous for the us, China and Russia.

[Stephen Sackur]

So you're outlining a geopolitical strategy in Washington, which really doesn't care very much.

[Dominique de Villepin]

About Europe going forward, not care at all.

[Stephen Sackur]

So let's build on that idea. The Europeans, looking at what is happening, have promised that they will respond by ramping up defence, security, military spending, and if necessary, they will fill in the hole left by the absence of the United States in support of. Of Ukraine. Now, you're a former French foreign minister and prime minister. Do you believe it is in any way credible to believe that Europe can replace what the United States has been giving for the past three years?

[Dominique de Villepin]

It is going to be very difficult, but it is credible on the middle term, long term. So we have.

[Stephen Sackur]

Forgive me, but the short term is what matters most.

[Dominique de Villepin]

Yes.

[Stephen Sackur]

On the battlefield, troops aren't going to worry about what's going to happen in five years. They worry about what happens.

[Dominique de Villepin]

And that's why, as much as we can, we should try to see, and to ask the question to Donald Trump whether he is willing to have a fair peace treaty or a fair ceasefire in order to give credibility to this ceasefire.

[Stephen Sackur]

The tough questions right now aren't just for Donald Trump, they're for Europe, too. I've been looking at France's actual assistance commitments to Ukraine over the past three years. They represent something like 0.2% of French GDP, far behind Germany, far behind the United Kingdom, a mile behind Poland and the Baltic. That's exactly why it talks a lot. But France is full of posture, no action.

[Dominique de Villepin]

I've said that before you very strongly. I was very puzzled by the Versailles summit a couple of years ago, because I thought that on the policy of embargo, we were not strong enough on ourselves.

[Stephen Sackur]

So why should we believe that today? France, according to Emmanuel Macron, is poised to send thousands of troops to back a ceasefire if it can be achieved in Ukraine.

[Dominique de Villepin]

First, because we are committed to help Ukraine. We have said that very strongly.

[Stephen Sackur]

But that's words.

[Dominique de Villepin]

No, no, that's not word. That's a European decision and we are taking action for that. Second, you are talking about the risk of war. But the risk of war is not the first scenario on the table today, because Donald Trump, he wants a peace treaty, he wants a ceasefire. And we know that Ukraine has the capability reserves. They have to stand at least for six months, one year. So we need to support and to increase progressively our help.

[Stephen Sackur]

But hang on. What Donald Trump, and I dare say Vladimir Putin see in Europe, and one has to say, particularly in France, is weakness. You have a government which is hanging on by a thread. It can't really pass measures Including a coherent budget. What you have is a French population that says it supports Ukraine, but when it's asked, do you want to send troops to Ukraine, Ukraine, a lot of that support melts away. How can you.

[Dominique de Villepin]

That's why I want to speak up so loudly, because I think we need a national unity, we need a European unity. This, you are right, is not given. But that's a responsibility and a commitment we should have with the British, with all the countries of Europe. And we should have a group of countries which. An avant garde.

[Stephen Sackur]

It's easy to say this when you're not in power. Can you convince me, for example? Let's take an example. Poland. In Poland, they spend far more than France currently can dream of on their defences. But not only that, they're going much further. They're now talking about national conscription so that young people in Poland do military service in preparation for a potential war to come. Is France in any conceivable world prepared to do that?

[Dominique de Villepin]

But it's very interesting because you are only considering one scenario, the war scenario. We know that Donald Trump.

[Stephen Sackur]

Well, it's a threat. You describe it as a threat scenario.

[Dominique de Villepin]

It is a threat scenario, but it's, it's not the only threat. I'm saying there is a threat on security and there is a threat on democracy and we should find both ways and we should have Europe standing for its own independence.

[Stephen Sackur]

Your words are interesting to me because you're a well known Gaultist. You know, you, like so many French people for decades have believed that France must retain complete sovereignty and control of its foreign policy and its security policy. If you're now talking about building a European army, then France is going to have to share, not least, actually, France may have to share its nuclear umbrella with Germany and other European nations. In the past, you and others in France have been very jealous about that share.

[Dominique de Villepin]

I'm not talking about a European army, I'm talking about a European defense. That means nations, chosen nations, the most implicated nations, working together very strongly as an avant garde. Five countries plus one, maybe the Swedish also, that will take the lead and.

[Stephen Sackur]

Show the way who's going to be in control. Because the French have always been jealous about control.

[Dominique de Villepin]

I think that we have something new we should be happy with.

[Stephen Sackur]

Who will be in command.

[Dominique de Villepin]

Germany. Germany is now on board. They have been very reluctant for many years now they are on board. They understood that they cannot rely on the us. The British are understanding, even with the tie, if the tie with the US is very strong, the French, Germany, the British, we are Having talks on the perspective of an extension of nuclear disruption.

[Stephen Sackur]

You as a Gaul, support that sharing.

[Dominique de Villepin]

Not sharing. No, no, please, not sharing the decision. I think we should be precise on all that. This is a matter of discussing a European dimension. This has been discussed by General de Gaulle and all the forests.

[Stephen Sackur]

So if we're going to talk, let's talk another lesson of history. You know as well as I do that in the old days of Henry Kissinger, his jibe at Europe as a geopolitical player was the very simple one. When you need Europe, who you going to call? Yes, and you're not answering my question. Who's in command of this coalition of the willing that you are talking about?

[Dominique de Villepin]

Germany, France, the UK and all the volunteers that all of those countries you.

[Stephen Sackur]

Just mentioned have subtly different perspectives on all of this.

[Dominique de Villepin]

But that's why I'm telling you the question is how are we going to unite our forces?

[Stephen Sackur]

But you're not giving me an answer.

[Dominique de Villepin]

Yes, it is a process. It's a process. I would love to be able to answer. This is going to happen this way. This is not a decision we can take in one week. We know for sure. But also we have to understand that it is more important to build up the response of Europe, to build up on solid basis than to go forward without any method.

[Stephen Sackur]

So what I'm reading from all your answers. What I'm reading from all of your answers, and again, you're a voice of experience and authority. You're saying NATO as we understand it is dead.

[Dominique de Villepin]

No. Because most of the European countries, they still want to work with NATO. They are in a transitional phase.

[Stephen Sackur]

Beginning of this interview, you told me the United States was a, quote, illiberal.

[Dominique de Villepin]

Democracy, but we can work together on the European pillar. On the European pillar, inside NATO, there is nothing contradictory with that. You see, we should be pragmatic working on the European pillar, having a European Defence Organization on the basis of government. And we should use all these different formats to invent something new. We are in a moment where we need to take responsibility, but we should take responsibility with the support of our countries. And that's where we have also a difficult challenge. Because this is not only a matter of government. The challenge in front of us, and that's key for me, is not only the challenge of the security of Ukraine. This is a key question. The challenge is also the stability of Europe.

[Stephen Sackur]

Absolutely.

[Dominique de Villepin]

And we see that there are ideological forces even within Europe that are supporting the U.S. administration. And the U.S. administration is playing with these populist forces to destabilize our regimes.

[Stephen Sackur]

Well, I talked earlier about words and actions not necessarily being, you know, on the same page. I'm wondering whether the world words you are delivering to me are going to be followed by actions, but before we end.

[Dominique de Villepin]

But this is the responsibility of the people in charge in every single nation of Europe. This is a battle that needs to be fought. I'm just saying it will be easy if it's just a matter of military leadership. It is much more than that. We need to mobilize our nation on the fact that we are facing a global threat. I want to remind you, first, who are we facing? We are facing Russia, who has not been able in three years to win more than a couple of kilometers in Ukraine. The US has not been able to defeat Afghanistan, neither to defeat Iraq. So power is not everything. Will is everything. This is the key, the will of the leaders and the will of the people. So this, this is what we should mobilize. But to do that, we should speak very frankly with our people.

[Stephen Sackur]

You have been outspoken here in France, not just on the issue of Ukraine and what the French and other European governments need to do. You've also been very outspoken on the issue of Israel and what Israel has done in Gaza since Hamas's attacks in October of 2023 on Israelis. Now, you say that France's internal silencing of criticism of Israel represents a, quote, historical scandal. Silence. It is, you said, a taboo. Why do you think that is?

[Dominique de Villepin]

Well, why? You could ask the same question to many European countries, in Germany and in the UK and in many, many countries. Why? Because they are just considering the situation, forgetting the fact that what is at stake in the Middle east and in the Gaza question, There are two things which are key. First is the matter of justice. You see, we began to have a huge problem in Ukraine when people understood that we were applying double standard. What's going on in Ukraine, seeing with one eye. What's going on in Gaza, seeing with another eye. So we lose the respect in many emerging countries. Second, not only a policy not complying with justice, but not complying with international law. You see, when you look at the policy of Putin aggression on Ukraine, when you look at the position of the US Administration, they have something in common. They don't respect limits, they don't respect rules, they don't respect international law. So we have to be defending. You're talking, and we have to defend the international law.

[Stephen Sackur]

Do you think anybody watching this will. Will believe that Europe has all of the high moral ground when it comes to Criticizing double standards and hypocrisy in rushes to international.

[Dominique de Villepin]

But I'm not, I'm not saying that, that. I'm saying that our policy for centuries has been based on humanism, universalism, the nightmare ideas. And today, if we are not coping with this in heritage, we are going to change of civilization. We are going to enter in the civilization of force. We are the continent supporting the respect of law and the respect of equality between people.

[Stephen Sackur]

But if you are right, and if the law of the jungle is in essence what we are seeing developing.

[Dominique de Villepin]

But I don't understand your question. When you look at Donald Trump putting in question the sovereignty of Greenland, this is not the law of jungle.

[Stephen Sackur]

No, I'm just.

[Dominique de Villepin]

I think you should take out your final question. Look at what's going on.

[Stephen Sackur]

I'm asking you if you are right and if we are seeing the rise of a United States which has more in common, to use your words, with Russia and China, than it does with the democracies of.

[Dominique de Villepin]

In this regard, it is obvious then.

[Stephen Sackur]

What chance does Europe have in this geopolitical arena to become a global security superpower?

[Dominique de Villepin]

But it's not a matter of chance. It's a matter of duty. This is a necessity for the stability of the world. You see, you are forgetting that the power of Donald Trump and of the US Administration is going now to face a lot of limits. They're going to have the midterms. One day the US People are going to awaken. One day the counterpowers, the Supreme Court and many others, the judicial system, the media, they are going to wake up. Are they going to let Donald Trump do whatever he wants and to erase the democracy in the US So I'm counting on the fact that somebody playing such a bully policy cannot do whatever he wants. He has at one point to face some reaction. The security background is Europe, and the ideological battleground is also Europe. And that's why I think we need a roadmap. The roadmap should be very clear, defend our security and defend democracy.

[Stephen Sackur]

If you do not think that the current leaders of your country and Europe grasp this with the clarity and the passion that you've exhibited today, are you going to put yourself forward again as a potential leader of France? You had ambitions in 2012. They came to naught. Do you still have ambitions to lead France as president?

[Dominique de Villepin]

I have no personal ambition, but I want to be part of the battle to awaken the French people and the European people. This is a battle which is a matter of survival. It's an existential battle for Europe. Do we want to have a Europe that it is going to deny its own traditions, to deny our own culture and ideas? Do we want to resemble to what's going on in the US Today or in some authoritarian regime? We don't want that. We need to fight for that, but we need to fight with a lot of cold blood to find the way to do it on the middle and long run and to do it precisely to defend the independence of France and Europe, to defend the democracy of France and Europe, and to defend the power of France and Europe. So we should do that taking into account our own interests.

[Stephen Sackur]

Dominique de Villepin, we have to end there. Thank you very much for joining me.

[Dominique de Villepin]

Thank you so much. And thank you for this hard talk.