Dr. Badr Abdelatty, Egyptian Foreign Minister: we’re pushing hard to end Sudan conflict

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Interview – Dr. Badr Abdelatty, Egyptian Foreign Minister: “We’re pushing hard to end Sudan conflict”

BBC World Service | December 10, 2025
Host: Wahiga Mwaura

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Episode Overview

This episode features Dr. Badr Abdelatty, the Foreign Minister of Egypt, in an in-depth conversation about Egypt's diplomatic efforts regarding the Sudanese conflict, regional tensions in the Horn of Africa, and Egypt’s perspective on the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam (GERD). Dr. Abdelatty discusses Egypt's commitment to mediation amid Sudan’s brutal civil war, rebuts allegations of foreign interference, and emphasizes the importance of regional stability and water security.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Egypt’s Role in Sudan Mediation

Timestamps: 03:38 – 07:47

• Dr. Abdelatty outlines Egypt’s proactive involvement in the Quad (Egypt, US, Saudi Arabia, UAE) to resolve the ongoing Sudanese conflict.
  • Quote: “We are pushing very hard in cooperation with the Americans, with the Saudis, with the Emiratis … to apply the maximum pressure to move forward with the implementation of this declaration of 12 September.” (04:09)
• The situation seriously deteriorated after the RSF militia’s capture of Al Fashir, leading to atrocities and shocking the international community.
• Egypt hosts about 5.5 million Sudanese refugees, underlining its vested interest in peace.
  • Quote: “Sudan is a sisterly country to Egypt ... we are hosting around 5.5 million Sudanese living in Egypt who fled their country due to the escalation there.” (05:10)
• Direct US presidential involvement (President Trump) is seen as crucial for brokering peace, referencing the precedent set in Gaza.
  • Quote: “It worked before in Gaza, and thanks to him … we managed to stop this ugly war. So we hope that with this direct involvement and the commitment of President Trump in this situation in Sudan, we hope that what happened in Gaza can be repeated in Sudan.” (06:18, 07:21)

2. Viability and Structure of the Quad’s Peace Plan

Timestamps: 07:38 – 12:39

• Despite setbacks after the fall of Al Fashir, Abdelatty insists the Quad’s roadmap remains the only viable option: humanitarian truce, ceasefire, safe havens, and an inclusive political process under Sudanese ownership.
  • Quote: “This is the only roadmap we have. We have to move forward with truce and the ceasefire as soon as possible ... to have humanitarian, safe haven, humanitarian accessibility in all Sudan.” (07:47)
• On Army commander General Burhan’s readiness: “He’s very keen to put an end to this war. … We will not allow this to happen.” (09:33)
• Emphasis on Sudan’s unity: “We will not under any circumstances accept any division or disintegration of Sudan because that will create more and more crisis to come in the future.” (09:58)

3. Contested Roles and Accusations Among Quad Members

Timestamps: 12:39 – 14:19; 15:40 – 16:58

• The interviewer raises concerns about UAE’s alleged support for RSF while mediating, and Egypt’s possible support for the Sudanese army.
  • Abdelatty firmly denies these allegations: “Absolutely not true at all. … Our position is very clear. This is a principled position in our foreign policy. Not to interfere in the internal affairs of any country, including neighboring countries.” (16:04)
• On the UAE: “We have a very strong relationship with the United Arab Emirates. … We all supportive of this Quad declaration.” (13:32)
• Stresses that only “good offices” and mediation—not arms or support—are being provided.

4. Egypt’s Perspective on GERD and Regional Water Security

Timestamps: 16:58 – 22:00

• Egypt opposes the unilateral operation of Ethiopia’s Grand Renaissance Dam, seeing it as a clear violation of international law and an existential threat to Egypt’s water supply.
  • Quote: “We consider it as a unilateral action. It’s illegitimate. It’s not in accordance with international law.” (17:28)
• All bilateral negotiations with Ethiopia are currently frozen; Egypt reserves the right to defend its interests if “any harm happened.”
  • “... if any harm happened, then you know, we have to defend our interests, but in accordance to [international law].” (19:50, 20:01)
• Egypt is the only Nile basin country almost entirely dependent on the Nile—“98%” of its water comes from it. (19:08)
• The stalled 2020 US-mediated agreement is detailed, with Ethiopia accused of failing to sign.

5. Egypt’s Activities in the Horn of Africa and Somalia

Timestamps: 22:00 – 23:11

• Denies that Egyptian troop deployment to Somalia is related to regional rivalry with Ethiopia.
  • “Mix apple with orange.” (22:07)
• Participation in Somalia is framed as counterterrorism support upon request from the Somali government and the African Union.
  • “We are participating in the African Union mission in Somalia to help Somalia in defeating terrorism … not imposing ourselves. They urged us to come.” (22:10, 22:33)

6. View on Gaza and Trump’s Peace Plan

Timestamps: 23:11 – 24:40

• Dr. Abdelatty praises the new UN Security Council-backed peace plan for Gaza as a “step in the right direction,” stressing its implementation is key.
  • The plan involves Israeli withdrawal, reconstruction, and the possible deployment of International Stabilization Forces (ISF).
• On Egypt’s possible contribution to ISF: “We’ll see … we are providing support for command and control, for logistics.” (24:14)
• The need for international monitoring of the ceasefire and continued progress in phase two of the plan is emphasized.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the humanitarian disaster in Sudan:
  “What’s happening there is systematic destruction of the infrastructure of the people in Sudan.” (04:39–04:47)
• On inclusion in Sudan’s political process:
  “Everybody will be party to this political process. It will be a Sudanese-owned process ... without any interference from any external factors.” (11:49)
• On Egypt’s non-interference:
  “This is a red line for us. We need de escalation ... our clear cut position to refrain from interfering.” (16:04)
• On Ethiopia and the Nile:
  “We negotiated with good faith. But unfortunately, the other side used this ... to create facts on the ground and to impose his will.” (17:28–18:15)
• Humor in deflecting accusations:
  “Mix apple with orange.” (22:07)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:38 – Start of interview, introduction to Egypt’s role in Sudan
• 05:10 – Refugee impact in Egypt
• 06:18 – US direct involvement; Quad’s operations
• 07:47 – Emphasis on political process and inclusivity
• 10:44 – On distinguishing state actors from militias
• 13:32 – Responds to allegations against UAE
• 16:04 – Egypt’s rejection of interference accusations
• 17:28 – Detailed grievance with Ethiopia over GERD
• 19:44 – National security implications; Egypt’s dependency on the Nile
• 22:07 – Denial of troop deployment being anti-Ethiopia
• 23:31 – Egypt’s support for new Gaza peace plan
• 24:14 – Participation in international stabilization efforts for Gaza

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Tone and Style

Dr. Abdelatty is pragmatic, direct, and occasionally forceful, especially when distancing Egypt from accusations of interference or when discussing sovereignty and national security. He also employs humor and metaphors (“mix apple with orange”) to underline points and disarm criticisms.

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Summary Takeaway

The episode provides a comprehensive look at Egypt’s diplomatic balancing act in a tumultuous region. Dr. Abdelatty reiterates Egypt’s commitment to Sudanese unity, peace via the Quad, and negotiated solutions, while robustly defending his nation against allegations of partiality or interference. Regional water disputes and the complicated Horn of Africa alliances showcase how closely interconnected security and diplomacy are for Cairo. On Gaza, Egypt welcomes the latest peace initiatives but urges real, actionable steps. Through it all, Dr. Abdelatty underscores principles of sovereignty and multilateralism as pillars of Egyptian foreign policy.

Transcript

[Wahiga Mwaura]

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[Wahiga Mwaura]

Hello, I'm BBC presenter Wahiga Mwaura and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC People shaping our world from all over the world.

[Cachava Advertiser]

Today we are spending trillions on war and peanuts on peace.

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

Wind power in the United States has.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

Been subsidized for 30, 33 years.

[Wahiga Mwaura]

Isn't that enough?

[Ray Winstone]

Solar for 25 years.

[Wahiga Mwaura]

That's enough.

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

I don't have army, I don't have missile rockets. I have my body, I have my voice.

[Ray Winstone]

I love singing and so my goal was always to do better and better at it.

[Cachava Advertiser]

I was still in an induced coma.

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

In hospital when the world was defining me.

[Wahiga Mwaura]

For this interview, I met Dr. Badr Abdelati, the Foreign Minister of Egypt, in Johannesburg. Dr. Abdelati took up the post last year following a long diplomatic career across Europe, North America and Asia. He's tasked with representing Egypt and the government of President Abdel Fattah El Sisi, who's been in power since 2014 following a military coup. The previous year. Egypt is currently facing a number of issues, including an economic crisis at home and political instability along its borders. Libya, to the west, is still dealing with the fallout from the collapse of the Gaddafi regime nearly 15 years later. And on Egypt's eastern border, much of Gaza lies in ruins. Meanwhile, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has estimated that over 1.5 million Sudanese people have sought safety in Egypt as a brutal civil war rages across the border to the south.

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

We hope that with direct involvement and the commitment of President Trump in this situation in Sudan, we hope that what happened in Gaza can be repeated in Sudan in order to apply the maximum pressure to implement the humanitarian truce.

[Wahiga Mwaura]

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Dr. Badr Abdelati, the Foreign Minister of Egypt.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

One of the impediments of development on the African continent are the wars and conflicts. Over the last couple of weeks, there's been a big discussion about the conflict in Sudan. Egypt is a member of the Quad, I believe. On 12 September, the Quad announced this roadmap to peace, humanitarian truce, ceasefire as well, possibly, and then a political process thereafter. That was a little over two months ago. What's been achieved since then?

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

Well, we are pushing very hard in cooperation with the Americans, with the Saudis, with the Emiratis, I mean the members of the Quad, in order to apply the maximum pressure to move forward with the implementation of this declaration of 12 September. Unfortunately, the situation deteriorated after the militia took over Al Fashir.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

You talk about the RSF aligned, and.

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

As you know, everybody was talking about the atrocities and the massacres, the crimes committed against civilians, Al Fashir and after the fall of Al Fashr. So I believe that represent a shock to the international community, to the public opinion, not only in Africa, but also in Europe and the United States. So now everybody is pushing very hard now for putting an end to this ridiculous war in Sudan, because you know what's happening there is systematic destructions of the infrastructure of the people in Sudan. So Egypt, as you know, is a neighboring country of Sudan and we have 1000km of border with Sudan. Sudan is a sisterly country to Egypt. And as you know, we are hosting around 5.5 million Sudanese living in Egypt who fled their country due to the escalation there. And that's why we are pushing very hard in order to put an end to this conflict and in order to preserve the future of Sudan, to preserve also the lives.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

Allow me to get some clarity, because there's been confusion over, you know, how Effective. The code has been working. When you see President Trump at the White House with the Saudi Crown Prince announcing that he's going to get involved in Sudan, one wonders, has the US Been with the Quad, or was President Trump announcing a new initiative?

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

Well, as you know, United States is part of Quad. And when President Abdel Fattah Al Sisi hosted the summit meeting in Sharm el Sheikh to end the Israeli war on Gaza, you know, he asked during his bilateral meeting with President Trump that we ask the President to engage directly in this conflict in order to put an end to the current violence and escalation in Sudan. So it's true that the United States is part of the Quad, but to have the direct involvement of President Trump, this is very important. It worked before in Gaza, and thanks to him, and it was only because of his involvement, his engagement, we managed to stop this ugly war. So we hope that with this direct involvement and the commitment of President Trump in this.

You know, situation in Sudan, we hope that what happened in Gaza can be repeated in Sudan in order to apply the maximum pressure to implement the Quad declaration, humanitarian troops.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

So you still believe the Quad's plan can still work? Because it sounds like it's faltered with the fall of Al Fasha and the long delay since the announcement was made.

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

Yeah, of course. This is, you know, the only game in town now. I mean, this is the only roadmap we have. We have to move forward with truce and the ceasefire as soon as possible and to have humanitarian, safe haven, humanitarian accessibility in all Sudan. And that should lead quickly and as soon as possible for the initiation of a political process where everybody will be participating without any exclusion. And, of course, it should be under Sudanese ownership and having or building a new Sudan, a new democratic Sudan, where it's including everybody in Sudan, all different tribes, all different factions and different players.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

Is General Burhan, who you met recently, ready for the humanitarian truce and the ceasefire?

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

Yes, of course he's ready.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

Why has he not signed on? At least to the best of our knowledge?

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

Yes, I mean, because, as I mentioned, we need also a safe haven in Darfur for those people, the tribes, the African tribes, who fled their homes because of the massacres, because of what happened there. We need here, he needs a sort of safe haven for those people to.

Be safe there. And that will lead to the complete ceasefire and then the initiation of the political process.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

Is that what he told you? And what else did he tell you in your most recent interview?

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

I mean, that he's ready. He's very keen to put an end to this war. And we have to work together on that because, you know, this is a systematic destruction of the infrastructure of Sudan and of the future of Sudan and the Sudanese people. And we will not allow this to happen. We are very worried about what's happening now in Sudan. That's why in Egypt we are insisting on, and as well as within the Quad, on the sovereignty of Sudan, territorial integrity and unity of Sudan. We will not under any circumstances accept any division or disintegration of Sudan because that will create more and more crisis to come in the future.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

And I believe you've been very clear on that. I've actually heard that in previous interviews that you've given. What other media is reporting is that General Burhan is not ready to engage in, in a process that recognizes the RSF as an equal player, including a political process as well. Can you confirm that because you're saying his demands are different?

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

No. We have to be careful here. First of all, we have to differentiate between the state, between the nation state, between the national institutions and any other entities. You cannot put on equal footing the national institutions with any other entities, you know, and our position is very clear. We are against any parallel entities. You know, we have one Sudan, one government, one authority, and this is very, very important. So we cannot put on equal footing national institutions, including the army, with other entities.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

So how then will the Quad work this out? Because the RSF believe that they have a legitimate claim to be a part of all these discussions moving forward. In fact, they've agreed to the humanitarian truce. So are you saying that in any negotiations the army would have a higher sort of negotiating or discussion part, because you are calling them a national entity.

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

The national army is of course, the main guarantor for the unity of Sudan, for the preservation of the sovereignty of Sudan. Any other entities, of course, they will be party of the political process. I said very clearly, no exclusion. Everybody will be party to this political process. It will be a Sudanese owned process where and inclusive. Everybody will be there and without any interference from any external factors. And the Sudanese, they have to decide their own future by themselves. You know, this is the position and as I mentioned, this is what we agreed upon in the Quad declaration.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

In the Quad declaration. And at the time when you were meeting to put it together, did you discuss accusations made against certain members of the Quad, specifically the uae, about their involvement in supporting the rsf?

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

Well, our dialogue is very constructive. How for the four countries, the member countries of the Quad, how can we work together in order to implement what was agreed upon on the 12th of September.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

I asked that question because human rights groups, the US Senate also is considering a bill to halt arms sales to the UAE until it seizes or reduces engagement with the rsf. Again, I ask, isn't it confusing that you have a member of the court that is on one hand accused of being actively supporting one side of the conflict and on the other hand is a mediator as well?

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

Well, this is not true. This kind of reports. And we have a very strong relationship with the United Arab Emirates. The U.S. senate believes they are our brothers and many other groups, sisters. We are working with them, cooperating with them. And we are party to this platform, to this mechanism called quad. And we all subscribe, we all supportive of this quad declaration. And we believe that through cooperation and coordination among the four countries of the Quad, I believe that we can put an end to this ongoing tragedy in Sudan.

[Wahiga Mwaura]

You're listening to the interview from the BBC World. People shaping our world from all over the world.

[Ray Winstone]

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are gonna come out of your head.

Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.

[Wahiga Mwaura]

For this episode of the interview, I'm speaking to Dr. Bader Abdelati, the foreign minister of Egypt. Now, I'd been trying to get this interview for some time now, and the sense that I got when it happened is that the foreign minister is clearly a man at ease with the media, and he must be, because his country has been involved in mediation and navigating complex geopolitics in the Middle east, in Sudan and elsewhere. And his role is to communicate his country's position on these challenges and others, making him a very busy man. Okay. Let's now return to my conversation with Dr. Badr Abdelati.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

I apologize if I seem that I'm belaboring the point. But just to get clarity, there are those who feel that the reason achieving peace in Sudan is difficult is because some of those involved in peacemaking are also supporting either side. For example, Egypt has been accused of providing some sort of support. The Sudanese army. Might be weapons, might be diplomatic or intelligence support. Is there any truth to that?

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

Absolutely not true at all. I mean, our position is very clear. This is a principled position in our foreign policy. Not to interfere in the internal affairs of any country, including neighboring countries. Of course, because foreign interference is not good, especially with regard to fuelling the conflict. This is a red line for us. We need de escalation. So this is our clear cut position to refrain from interfering. We are there only to help, to use our good offices in order to bring everybody to the table to work out a sort of agreement and understanding which will preserve the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Sudan.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

Okay. And even as we broaden beyond Sudan, there have been discussions and concerns in the recent past about tensions in the Horn of Africa. Minister, I know this is something you've been engaged on. I'd be keen to hear your views. We've seen Egypt increasingly seeming close or aligning with Somalia with Eritrea and the scobol, or the concerns about the dam that Ethiopia recently announced as operational coming to the fore as well. What is the position of Egypt on these matters? Are you able to give us clarity?

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

Well, we have two levels here of analysis. The first one is related to our bilateral relations with Ethiopia regarding this dam. We consider it as a unilateral action. It's illegitimate. It's not in accordance with international law. International law is saying clearly that any transboundary river should be governed by the principles of the international law, which means paranormatification, which means no causing harms. But what happened, you know, with this Ethiopian dam was unilateral action outside the international law and its unfortunate development. And again, it's a unilateral action. We don't recognize it because they didn't consult with us. We conducted more than 13 years of negotiations without reaching any agreement. And that was unfortunate because we negotiated with good faith. But unfortunately the other side used this, I mean period of negotiation to create facts on the ground and to impose his will. And for us, we announced it very clearly a year ago that the negotiations track reached a complete deadlock. And we.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

And that is the situation till today. So no back channel communications with Ethiopia?

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

None of the other? All frozen, all stopped. And we preserve the four rights to defend our national interest and our water security if any harm happened in and in accordance to international law. For your own information, Egypt, the only country in the Nile basin region which is relying on the Nile as the only source of water by 1998% 98 the only country. And we have no other sources.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

You speak of Egypt weighing its options within international law. What are those options at this time?

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

Well, I mean, if any harm happened, then you know, we have to defend our interests, but in accordance to militarily.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

Diplomatically.

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

To the international law and the UN Charter, that's it.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

And any talks, you know, Ethiopia have said, come, let's talk. We have excess energy that we can now share with you. You're building a new nuclear power plant.

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

We talked, my friend, for 13 years and we reached nothing, Zero, nothing. So, I mean, we will not continue in this endless track and giving the other side the opportunity to create more facts on the ground.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

Is this something the world should be concerned about at a time when we have conflicts in Sudan and elsewhere?

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

What should they do? What should the international community do if.

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

The two parties were unable to resolve the Security Council? Because the Security Council had the main platform for dealing with, with issues related to international peace and security in the world. And this is a clear threat to international security and peace. And that's why, you know, unfortunately, nothing is moving for the discussions, for the negotiations and for the international community. And for your own information, in February 2020, we reached an agreement. We reached an agreement with mediation and support of the World bank and the Secretary of Treasury of United States and under the full sponsorship of President Trump during his first term. And it was not ideal for us, but it was the best for everybody, for Ethiopia, for Egypt and for Sudan. And at that time, our foreign minister went to Washington D.C. to sign and unfortunately, the Ethiopian minister did not show up.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

So is that linked in any way to why you are deploying troops to Somalia? Because there are some who feel that you're shoring up your presence in the region.

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

Mix apple with orange.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

There's no truth. No. I'm asking on behalf of audiences who.

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

May not get this. It's only, you know, we are participating in the African Union mission in Somalia to help Somalia in defeating terrorism. We are there based upon a request from Somalia and the request from the African Union.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

So despite concerns raised by Ethiopia.

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

No, I mean, I mean, let's be very frank. I mean, we being welcomed and asked by the Peace and Security Council of the African Union and a written request from the Somalia government, you know, so we are not imposing ourselves. They are urged us to come and to help them in order to keep the territorial integrity of Somalia and to preserve its sovereignty and to defend them against Al Shabaab and against the other terrorists, terrorist organizations.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

And I'm not able to release without getting your final thoughts on the situation in the Middle East. A lot of what is happening there partly took place in Egypt with that summit that you referenced earlier on what did you make of the UN Security Council's adoption of the peace plan championed by President Trump that we saw recently? Is that a step in the right direction?

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

Well, it's important. It's a step in the right direction. It's true. And we need to make it applicable. We need to implement it on the ground and of course, to move forward with the second phase of the Trump peace plan. The second phase means, of course, withdrawal from Gaza by the Israeli forces means, of course, dealing with issues such as recovery, reconstruction of Gaza and deployment of the isf, the international stabilization forces on the ground.

[Interviewer / BBC Journalist]

Will you contribute troops to.

[Dr. Badr Abdelati]

We'll see. You know, I mean, this is important issue. Of course we need the monitors to be deployed to monitor the ceasefire. And for us, we are providing support for, for command and control, for logistics. And again, the implementation of the second phase is very important.

[Wahiga Mwaura]

Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with British Home Secretary Shabana Mahmoud, Google CEO Sundar Pichai, and Hassan Sheikh Mohamoud, the president of Somalia. Till next time, it's bye for now.

[Ray Winstone]

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are gonna come outta your head.

Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.