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The Interview
Duma Boko, President of Botswana: the world will listen to Africa
00:22:59
Waihiga Mwaura speaks to Botswana’s President Duma Boko about transforming the economy
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- [00:00]
BBC Announcer
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- [00:38]
Wahiga Mwaura
Hello, I'm Wahiga Mwaura, BBC presenter and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world.
- [00:53]
Duma Boko
There have been so many disagreements between me and my family. Putting on a show that is what it means to be Lady Gaga. Only the things that you can't solve with government and private sector is where you bring philanthropy in. There is no place in the world.
- [01:09]
Interviewer
Where women are equal.
- [01:11]
Duma Boko
Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy.
- [01:17]
Wahiga Mwaura
For this interview, I met Duma Boko, President of Botswana, in New York. You're going to hear about his plans to take greater control over Botswana's diamond resources, but also to diversifying the country's economy. He believes he is close to securing a tariff free deal with the United States on diamonds. President Boko calls on his African neighbours to do more, to work together. That way, he says the world will have to listen to Africa. And he adds his voice to those calling for greater representation at the United Nations. He tells me Botswana has not yet been targeted by the United States as a possible destination for deporting migrants, so called third country deportation. But he acknowledges that despite ethical concerns raised about the practice, some African nations might find it difficult to refuse.
- [02:10]
Duma Boko
There are certain concessions that African countries need from the US and the US is now presenting certain demands. It's something of a quid pro quo. You give me this in exchange for that. And a lot of the times the African countries have very little choice in the matter. And so strategically, one appreciates why some or many of them might, in the short to medium term, take the propositions that are given to them by the United States.
- [02:43]
Wahiga Mwaura
President Boko shares the success of his party's efforts to bring more women into government at the highest levels and also of Botswana's athletes on the running track. The election of Duma Boko, a Harvard educated human rights lawyer in 2024 overturned nearly 60 years of rule by the Botswana Democratic Party. It was his third bid for the country's leadership as the head of the Umbrella for democratic change. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Duma Bo.
- [03:18]
Duma Boko
Botswana has embarked on a journey of transformation. We are looking to become not just a logistics hub, we're also looking to become a digital hub. We're looking to digitalize our economy very rapidly, very robustly. We're also looking to now assume control and ownership over our diamonds. And that is why with the divestment of Anglo from dbs, we are looking to increase our stake. In fact, we are looking to acquire the entire shareholding of Anglo in dbs and we will, with other partners, other investors, now organize ourselves around that shareholding. So that's what we are doing and that's what Botswana is positioning itself to do now.
- [04:13]
Interviewer
How big a hit would you say your economy has taken from the fact that lab diamonds now have become as popular as they are and you know, diamonds have been your major export?
- [04:21]
Duma Boko
Yes, well, we've been overly dependent on diamonds. We've taken a very heavy knock on that front. But we are also looking to diversify within the mining sector, look at critical minerals, which we have plenty of. We have copper, nickel, we have cobalt, we have many other critical minerals. And we will be looking to leverage on our endowment in these regards to now begin industrialization, beneficiation, light manufacture and processing of all these minerals so that we don't export them raw.
- [05:04]
Interviewer
I mean, we recently saw, I think, the formal reopening opening of the Tataki mine. And I believe that's part of what you are referring to. What can other governments learn from Botswana on how to secure, you know, mineral, adequate mineral revenue from, you know, critical minerals or what you have in the ground? I'm talking about governments in DRC and elsewhere. What lessons would you have for them?
- [05:23]
Duma Boko
We would encourage, and from our example, partnerships, partnership between governments and the private sector. We have the longest lasting partnership between ourselves and DBS in which we are a 15% shareholder. We have the minerals, they are produced in Botswana. We produce 70% of DBS minerals across the world. And so that partnership is an example of what can obtain if governments and the private sector come together and focus with the investors, the private sector invest in its resources and the government deploying regulation, deploying access and efficiency. And so that can guide, but also there has to be a predictable, safe and credible environment to do business in. And Botswana is just about the best exemplar of that on the African continent.
- [06:22]
Interviewer
But wouldn't you agree that these partnerships haven't always worked for, for African countries? Where have they gotten it wrong? In the past, a lot of the wealth of the continent ends up in other jurisdictions.
- [06:31]
Duma Boko
The biggest downside has been to allow the product, the minerals mined on the African soil to be carted away in the raw. This has been the critical difficulty where jobs are exported. And so they approach now for Botswana and for the rest of the African continent has to be that processing of these minerals must take place in country, must take place within the continent so that value is extracted, so that each country and Africa as a whole becomes a hub for value addition, for innovation and for industrialization. This is what Africa needs to do, I believe.
- [07:13]
Interviewer
Since you won the election, will we be hearing your voice on the push by Africa to have two permanent seats at the UN Security Council?
- [07:20]
Duma Boko
Yes, indeed, we are resolute on that. We join the chorus of voices on the African continent pushing for that. And so our voice will be added to.
- [07:30]
Interviewer
Why do you think that voice hasn't been heard? We've been here before, you know, many African governments calling for that. But the countries that have veto power in the UN Security Council are the same countries that Africa relies on for aid, for security support and so much more. Is there any leverage on the continent? President, if you were to be honest.
- [07:47]
Duma Boko
I think what the African continent needs to do, and it's what it has begun to do, is to recognize that it must now lean on itself more than it does on external players. The Africa Continental Free Trade Area Agreement is an attempt to ensure there's inter Africa trade. And once Africa trades in that way, Africa opens up these channels of trade within the African continent. Africa then becomes a formidable force in the world economic order. And when you are at that level, when you have asserted yourself and established yourself as a force, not just as a source of raw materials, but as a solid trading partner that produces goods and products that the world needs, the world will have to listen to Africa.
- [08:37]
Interviewer
And Africa will take as Botswana benefited from the Africa Free Trade Area in any way so far.
- [08:42]
Duma Boko
It's still in its nascent stages and Botswana is looking to to benefit. That's why Botswana is reaching out. Because in critical respects there will be aggregation of produce in order to service certain markets which each country operating individually would not be able to service. Botswana, for instance, has a quarter of to supply beef to Europe it has met, but only a quarter of that quarter over time. So we will need, for instance, Namibia will need others to come on board so that we are able to aggregate our produce in terms of both scale and quality to service these markets together. That will unlock value. It will enable us to collaborate amongst.
- [09:22]
Interviewer
Ourselves as African countries on this matter of trade. If the Africa Growth and Opportunities act, which allows duty free access of certain African products to the US Is not renewed, what does that mean for your country?
- [09:33]
Duma Boko
Well, it presents immense challenges because it will block off access to what has been a very huge market and a very lucrative market for African goods. If you take the country of Lesotho, for instance, which is big on textile and has been anchored and supported by the African Growth Opportunities Act, a huge blow. But of course, we need to now be resilient enough. And if we are able amongst ourselves on the African continent to open these trade channels, that market that we would otherwise lose, we should be able to at least claw back a substantial part off from the African continent, the 1.5 billion.
- [10:19]
Interviewer
Any sense on how many jobs could potentially be lost in your country? What are your economists telling you?
- [10:25]
Duma Boko
Look, with Botswana, the biggest export commodity for us is diamonds. And that is why our focus in terms of Agoa, there isn't much textile that we've, we've exported. And that's why I'm giving the example of Lesotho, which relies on textile more than us, for us. And the biggest commodity that accounts for trade between us and the United States is our diamonds. And that is why our focus has been to push for zero tariff, especially on diamonds. But of course, we are pushing for a better deal on Agoa, not just for ourselves, but for the rest of Africa.
- [11:03]
Interviewer
How far are your negotiations on zero tariffs for your diamonds?
- [11:06]
Duma Boko
We are at an advanced stage. I think. We are on the verge of reaching an agreement. And it looks like Botswana will probably be the first to conclude an agreement which will then be broadened to cover other African countries.
- [11:22]
Wahiga Mwaura
You're listening to the interview from the BBC World. People shaping our world from all over the world.
- [11:32]
BBC Announcer
At the BBC we go further so you see clearer. Through frontline reporting, global stories and local insights, we bring you closer to the world's news as it happens. And it starts with a subscription to BBC.com giving you unlimited articles and videos, ad free podcasts and the BBC News Channel streaming live 24. 7. Subscribe to trusted independent journalism from the BBC. Find out more@BBC.com Join.
- [12:05]
Wahiga Mwaura
For this episode of the interview. I'm speaking to Douma Boko, President of Botswana. When I spoke to President Boko, it was already his third public engagement of the day, with several others still to come. He is a man clearly at ease with the press and with public speaking. He also appeared to be a man in a hurry, determined to get his message out to the world. About what he and his administration are trying to achieve in Botswana. For now, he seems to enjoy support both at home and abroad, as many first term leaders do during their honeymoon phase. But with the challenges of declining diamond demand, punitive US Tariffs, and broader geopolitical headwinds, he'll need to secure some early wins to keep his approval rating steady. Okay, let's now return to my conversation with Douma Boko.
- [12:58]
Interviewer
Speaking of agreements between African countries and the United States, what do you make of the third country deportations that the US has been championing for many of your neighbors have signed up onto it.
- [13:08]
Duma Boko
Well, it is a, if you like, a quid pro quo in the sense that there are certain concessions that African countries need from the US and the US Is now presenting certain demands to these African countries and saying, in order for us to give you these that you are asking for, would you consider the following from our side? So it's something of a quid pro quo. You give me this in exchange for that. And a lot of the times the African countries have very little choice in the matter. And so strategically, one appreciates why some or many of them might, in the short to medium term, take the propositions that are given to them by the United States.
- [14:04]
Interviewer
Have you been approached to receive migrants?
- [14:08]
Duma Boko
No, we have not. There's been no formal approach to us, but we've been talking about the tariffs. So maybe in the context of that we might hear and we'll have to contend with.
- [14:20]
Interviewer
What would your choice be off the top of your head? You are the ultimate. You're the CEO of the country.
- [14:24]
Duma Boko
We'll concede when it comes to, we look, we want to do whatever is in the best interests of our country.
- [14:32]
Interviewer
Do you think it's ethical? I mean, these deported parties, their lawyers are in U.S. courts at the moment asking for justice. They are legal questions. Is it ethical for the US to make such demands?
- [14:41]
Duma Boko
Well, I was assuming that these demands are being made in anticipation of the fact that the litigation and the courts will conclude at some point. And it seems that whatever the outcomes, the American government would want to remove certain of these individuals. And so in anticipation of whatever the outcome is and an outcome that may allow them to remove, then they are preparing in advance. That was my understanding. And there would be nothing ethically wrong with preparing yourself in advance.
- [15:17]
Interviewer
You say some of the African countries may have made the choice because they have no choice. They have almost no choice.
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Duma Boko
It's probably a Hobson's choice for them.
- [15:24]
Interviewer
There's an African Union. You know, the African Continent now should have a louder voice than ever before. Can they not say no if that was not in their interest to begin with?
- [15:34]
Duma Boko
The difficulty with some of the challenges that face the African countries is that multilateralism is taking a beating that's receding or is being pushed back and pushed back vigorously, with the result that as survival responses, countries are approached individually, not in the context of a bloc. So there's no negotiation on block. It's individuated engagements with countries. And when engagements occur at that level and each country is forced to look at its circumstances, it makes whatever artful maneuvers without, I believe, compromising the broader picture of the African Union that would enable them to survive in the short to medium term even.
- [16:26]
Interviewer
I'm imagining someone on the African continent listening to you and wondering, so when we hear these grand speeches from African leaders on the floor of the UN General assembly, behind the scenes, are the realities altogether very different? These countries simply fighting for survival?
- [16:39]
Duma Boko
Yes, indeed, they're somewhat different. And it's a function of strategy. When you are faced with a behemoth of a situation or a block and you have to survive in order to then build yourself into the formidable force that you ought to be in order to engage at par with, what option do you take? Do you take an option that poses an immediate existential threat to you, or you take an approach that gives you some play at the joints in order to refocus your energy?
- [17:23]
Interviewer
It's a fair point that you raised, but we had a Nigerian foreign minister who went on a TV interview and said, we have enough problems as it is. Let us first deal with the citizens in our borders before we receive citizens from other nations. One would expect that there'd be more African leaders rising up and saying, hang on. As a continent, we need to discuss if this is going to be the future of our engagements with other parts of the world.
- [17:42]
Duma Boko
I would expect that those who have been approached will take a decision. Nigeria, if it has determined that that's the way they should go, then I'm sure certain other African countries will also look at their circumstances and say, paul, wait a minute. There's a voice, formidable voice here that is pushing back. Maybe let's join the chorus and move in that direction. So I think it will resonate hopefully with others who are facing similar circumstances. And at the same time, some of these initiatives that the African Union is putting into place, among them the African Continental Free Trade Area, the digital trading platforms that are now coming up to enable seamless trade, should enable African countries to rely more on domestically mobilized resources. The moment we get to that point where we don't need to rely on external finance, then I think the African continent will be well on its way to asserting itself and pushing back against some of the movements and machinations that are at play.
- [18:47]
Interviewer
How significant do you think it will be for Africa to host the G20 for the first time in November? Very close in Africa, Yes.
- [18:54]
Duma Boko
While it is significant, it brings all these players on the African continent first for them to come and see and experience Africa and realize that some of the stereotypes and presuppositions that they have peddled about Africa are palpably incorrect and somewhat malicious at times. And that might be a lesson for them, but also to now begin to engage with Africa and realize that Africa is rising and Africa is asserting itself. The world will need Africa. It needs Africa. I think soon enough the world will wake up to the fact that it needs Africa and it needs Africa desperately.
- [19:30]
Interviewer
Which world leader will you be hoping to will attend this G20? Are you hoping to see President Trump there, for example?
- [19:36]
Duma Boko
I'm not sure whether President Trump will personally attend. I know that the vice president of the United States will go. I'm not sure whether that means the president is not coming, but if he's there, it would be good to have some engagement with him. But we're also seeking to interest the vice president in stopping by in Botswana so that he can see what Botswana is about and he can begin to realize that there's leadership in Africa, especially in Botswana.
- [20:09]
Interviewer
Your government has stood out for having a host of young leaders, specifically women in very high ranking positions, including in the cabinet. Why has this been important for you?
- [20:19]
Duma Boko
Well, it's important first because we have lots of able women, highly educated, very competent, and it only is fair that they are given a platform to shine. The political space is inhospitable, we know. And so we have devised ways in which we can empower women. We have, for instance, the instrument of specially elected members of parliament, which we invoke and bring young women into parliament and therefore elevate them into becoming ministers and in other positions of responsibility and decision making. It's something that has to be done. We must do is the way to go for the country.
- [21:08]
Interviewer
The public health emergency that has been ongoing in your country, what's the status of that?
- [21:12]
Duma Boko
The state of emergency was declared for a period of 21 days. The 21 day period has elapsed and the state of emergency has ended. We've resolved the immediate and pressing challenges in the health sector. We are now developing sustainable and durable means of ensuring that the shortages of medicines in our health facilities do not recur.
- [21:37]
Interviewer
Those who may have participated in leading to health of public health emergence either by acts of omission or commission. Anyone been arrested? Any investigations?
- [21:45]
Duma Boko
There are investigations going on. There's a forensic audit that is taking place in the country that covers all these government entities and departments. And at the end of it, it's.
- [21:56]
Interviewer
Taken a bit longer than one would have expected.
- [21:58]
Duma Boko
Well, it takes a bit of time. We calculated that it would take about nine months.
- [22:03]
Interviewer
Nine months to investigate.
- [22:04]
Duma Boko
Yes, because you have several entities of government. You have to look at systems that failed, you have to look at what happened. And then investigation is about gathering evidence that you can stack up in a court. It's not suspicions, however strong. So it's also very important. We are a country that subscribes to and promotes the rule of law. And so we do everything by the letter of the law. And so we take our time. We ensure that everything is properly done and that there's no perception that there's some witch hunting.
- [22:41]
Interviewer
And finally, I'll give you a last word on the performance of Botswana's team on the athletics front. We saw the feats of the World Athletics Championships began to stand out beyond Kenya and Ethiopia. Tell us more.
- [22:52]
Duma Boko
I've been supporting very closely. I've had engagements with them, I've had meetings with them to encourage. But it also is a function of belief that we have in our young people the dynamism, the resilience of our young people, the growing self belief now showcased on the international stage. We believe that we draw from such countries as Kenya that have been in that space and others. And now Botswana comes along. We believe other countries will now be.
- [23:26]
Interviewer
Believe you're the new kid on the block.
- [23:28]
Duma Boko
And Africa will now not only emerge in the area of trade and commerce in sport, Africa will also take its rightful place.
- [23:41]
Wahiga Mwaura
Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get. Your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the Somalian President Hassan Sheikh Mohamoud, US Energy Secretary Chris Wright and the Deputy Secretary General of the United Nations, Amina Mohammed. Until next time, it's bye for now.
- [24:13]
BBC Announcer
At the BBC we go further so you see clearer. Through frontline reporting, global stories and local insights, we bring you closer to the world's news as it happens. And it starts with a subscription to BBC.com giving you unlimited articles and videos ad free podcasts and the BBC News Channel streaming live 24. 7 subscribe to trusted independent journalism from the BBC. Find out more at BBC.comjoin.