The Interview – BBC World Service

Episode Title: Francis Fukuyama: America’s Putin-esque Direction
Guest: Professor Francis Fukuyama
Host: Paddy O'Connell
Date: September 7, 2025

Overview

In this episode, host Paddy O'Connell interviews Francis Fukuyama, a leading political economist and international relations expert, best known for his book The End of History and the Last Man. The conversation focuses on the erosion of liberal democracy in the United States, the parallels between American and autocratic governance, the shifting global order, youth political engagement, academic freedom, and the disruptive force of artificial intelligence.

Fukuyama provides a blunt assessment of America's current trajectory, warning of “Putin-esque” tendencies developing in U.S. politics and institutions, and reflects on both the challenges and responsibilities facing defenders of democracy in a rapidly changing world.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Erosion of U.S. Democracy and “Putin-esque” Direction

Timestamps: 02:49–05:29, 07:08–10:14

• Fukuyama draws alarming parallels between democratic backsliding in the U.S. and autocratic trends seen in Hungary and Russia:

  • “We're seeing that erosion taking place before our eyes with masked ICE agents snatching people off the streets with no due process whatsoever, shipping them off to foreign dictatorships. And so we're definitely moving in a Putinesque direction.” (Fukuyama, 02:49)

• He cautions that the decline of democracy is gradual, referencing Viktor Orban’s Hungary as a more apt comparison than Russia for America’s trajectory.

• Fukuyama highlights a critical shift in national self-concept:

  • “We have a United States now that does not put, you know, liberal democracy at the forefront of the way it sees itself and the way that it wants to order the world.” (Fukuyama, 03:38)

• He distinguishes between the U.S. and Russia, noting that American institutions (e.g., elections) still function, albeit under stress.

2. Comparing U.S. Presidential Power: From Reagan to Trump

Timestamps: 06:55–09:56

• Fukuyama emphasizes the transformation in American leadership style:

  • On Reagan: “He was a firm internationalist. He believed in free trade, he believed in democracy. He saw the United States as a leader of the free world.” (Fukuyama, 07:08)
  • On Trump: “That America has really disappeared under Donald Trump.” (Fukuyama, 07:08)

• He analyzes the expansion of executive power:

  • “Trump does not really want to have to listen to the courts... the so-called unitary executive theory that is animating Republicans today. They really do want to concentrate as much power as possible in the office of the President.” (Fukuyama, 08:47)

• Fukuyama notes that Trump is wielding executive power not in response to national emergencies, but as a means to override democratic constraints.

3. Critique of Both Political Parties

Timestamps: 09:56–10:45, 14:34–15:18

• Fukuyama levels criticism at Democrats for their role in enabling Trump:

  • “The Democrats have not to this day fully recognized the degree to which they are responsible for the rise of Donald Trump. I think running Biden was a huge, huge mistake.” (Fukuyama, 10:14)
  • On immigration: Failure to address border issues provided ammunition for Trump's rise.

• Regarding Trump’s hardline measures, Fukuyama is clear on his opposition to their extremity:

  • “The response has been so outside of the bounds of any... real respect for the rule of law that the treatment is much worse than the disease.” (Fukuyama, 14:34)

4. Academic Freedom, Campus Activism, and Youth Mobilization

Timestamps: 10:45–14:08

• Fukuyama finds the pushback against threats to academic freedom from students and institutions lacking:

  • “I'm a little bit disappointed in the kind of pushback that you're getting from the people in my immediate environment... I think they will come for Stanford, you know, down the road.” (Fukuyama, 11:07)
  • He expresses concern that students are more mobilized about international causes (e.g., Gaza) than domestic threats to their own freedoms.

• On left-wing activism and state backlash:

  • “There were excesses on the left that are now being countered by the full force of the state, which is trying to basically take away academic freedom... So we are in the midst of... a really gigantic threat against academic freedom here.” (Fukuyama, 13:05)

• On democratic engagement:

  • “It's that slow, boring work of democratic mobilization and then democratic agency that is really what's needed right now.” (Fukuyama, 12:08)

5. Defending American Democracy: Resolve Versus Retreat

Timestamps: 16:20–17:31

• Fukuyama is unequivocal about staying in the U.S.:

  • “Oh, no, I'm not going to leave.” (Fukuyama, 16:33)
  • He frames the fight for democracy as a responsibility, not an excuse for exile.
  • “It is that bad, but I think the way you counter it is not by fleeing. I think you counter it by mobilizing, you know, telling people, convincing people that they've got a big problem on their hands.” (Fukuyama, 16:49)

• The crisis has increased public appreciation for democratic norms:

  • “A better consciousness of why the Constitution matters, why checks and balances are important...” (Fukuyama, 17:31)

6. The Impact and Threat of Artificial Intelligence

Timestamps: 17:47–23:40

• Fukuyama is deeply concerned about the loss of control over AI:

  • “People in the AI field worry about is what they call the loss of control problem, because they are delegating increasing authority to intelligent machines...” (Fukuyama, 18:23)

• On disinformation and democracy:

  • “More than half of the videos I see [on Instagram] are deep fakes... It's really hard to know exactly, you know, what you're seeing, whether what you're seeing is, is real or not... democracies are based on trust.” (Fukuyama, 20:51)

• Technology and inequality:

  • “It's certainly concentrating wealth and power in the hands of the big corporations that produce the technology. And, you know, that again, exacerbates the inequalities that... are destabilizing for a democracy.” (Fukuyama, 21:53)

• On the possibility of machines having rights:

  • “If a machine can't feel fear, you know, for its own existence, I. I'm not sure that, you know, the right to life is something that makes all that much sense for a machine.” (Fukuyama, 22:54)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On U.S. democratic erosion:
  “We're definitely moving in a Putinesque direction.” (Fukuyama, 02:49)

• On Trump vs. Reagan:
  “Reagan looks pretty good because he was a firm internationalist... That America has really disappeared under Donald Trump.” (Fukuyama, 07:08)

• On executive orders:
  “It's the volume and the speed and the audacity of some of those [Trump’s] orders... Trump does not really want to have to listen to the courts.” (Fukuyama, 08:47)

• On responsibility to fight for democracy:
  “The way you counter it is not by fleeing. I think you counter it by mobilizing, you know, telling people, convincing people that they've got a big problem on their hands.” (Fukuyama, 16:49)

• On the dangers of AI-powered misinformation:
  “More than half of the videos I see are deep fakes... If you can't trust the credibility of the way that the empirical world is reported to you, we're in big trouble.” (Fukuyama, 20:51)

• On tech inequalities:
  “It’s certainly concentrating wealth and power in the hands of the big corporations that produce the technology.” (Fukuyama, 21:53)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro to Fukuyama & “End of History” thesis context: 01:47–02:49
• Parallels to autocratic regimes and “Putin-esque direction”: 02:49–05:29
• Comparing Reagan, Trump, and U.S. global leadership: 06:55–08:09
• Expansion of presidential power and executive orders: 08:09–09:56
• Bi-partisan critique of political failures: 09:56–10:45, 14:34–15:18
• Student activism, academic freedom concerns: 10:45–14:08
• Defending democracy, public engagement: 16:20–17:31
• AI, disinformation, and democracy: 17:47–23:40

Conclusion

Francis Fukuyama delivers a sobering but energizing analysis of the contemporary U.S. political landscape, warning against the steady erosion of democratic institutions and the dangers of both institutional complacency and overreach. He identifies the dual threats from political authoritarianism and technology's disruptive power—underscoring that the defense of democracy and liberal values is an active, continuous process requiring vigilance and collective effort, especially from a new generation. His message is clear: democratic crisis is not a call for despair or exit, but for renewed public engagement and institutional defense.