Podcast Summary: The Interview – Gabriel Zuchtriegel, Director of Pompeii

BBC World Service | January 12, 2026

Overview

In this episode of The Interview, Michael Barclay sits down with Gabriel Zuchtriegel, the dynamic and sometimes controversial director of Pompeii. They explore the unique role of archaeology in telling the stories of all levels of ancient society, the persistent threat of looting and artifact theft, the morality of contested museum collections (notably the Elgin Marbles), and the profound emotional impact of unearthing lives frozen in time by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD. Through candid conversation, Zuchtriegel highlights how Pompeii’s material evidence offers a truer, more democratic history than written sources alone, and what it means to preserve the site today.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The “Democracy” of Archaeology vs Written History

• Material Evidence vs Elite Narratives – Pompeii reveals social strata often overlooked in texts, such as enslaved people, prostitutes, and the poor.
  • “How did enslaved people live? How did the poor live? How did their apartments and houses look? That’s something where the written sources are really, really scarce… But in Pompeii you get everything.” — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (02:15)
• A Complete Social Picture – The eruption preserved stables, workshops, and mansions equally, providing a cross-class view of Roman life.
• Challenging the “No Middle Class” Myth – Excavations show evidence of a dynamic, aspiring middle class.
  • “If you look at Pompeii, you can see that there is something like a middle class... houses that are big maybe, but have a lot of paintings. And you can see both the ambition to rise socially, but also the fear of declining.” — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (04:37)

Collector Syndrome and the Curse of Artifact Theft

• Tourist “Checklist” Mentality – Zuchtriegel criticizes the impulse to visit famous sites just for bragging rights, rather than meaningful engagement.
  • “It’s the idea that you come to a place with some kind of list... then you’ve been there and that’s it. And I thought this was really a pity.” — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (06:50)
• Artifact Theft and the Pompeii “Curse” – Despite video surveillance and laws, small-scale theft persists. Many return stolen items, haunted by guilt and bad luck, believing in a curse.
  • “There’s also a legend about a curse lying on everyone who takes something from Pompeii… I have experienced a number of tragedies… and the fact that they attribute this to something they’ve done…” — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (07:39)
• Global Looting Challenge – Extensive illegal tunneling and systematic looting persist, both locally and as part of a broader illicit trade. Provenance matters deeply for archaeological meaning.
  • “It’s not the material value… it’s that this really destroys archaeology… Don’t buy anything. Ancient objects, go to museums. Don’t have it at your home. That’s the best response, I think.” — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (09:14)

Museum Ethics and Repatriation: The Elgin Marbles

• On Repatriation – While acknowledging the Elgin Marbles are entwined with British Museum history, Zuchtriegel advocates their return to Greece, especially in light of the new Acropolis Museum.
  • “I think it should be considered to give them back… If you have to put them into a museum, a museum close to the place where they were found.” — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (11:10)

Unexpected Discoveries & Archaeological Thrill

• Chance and Technology in Excavation – Many major finds, including Greek temples and the Dionysian frescoes at Pompeii, were accidental, typically revealed during conservation work rather than research-focused digs.
  • “We did this excavation mainly for conservation… at some point we stumbled across capitals and pieces of columns… so we understood there must be a building…” — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (15:17)
• The Joy of Surprise – The unpredictability and discovery are core to archaeological excitement.
  • “It’s actually the surprise that you always… you never find what you expect. And that’s thankfully, thank God it’s like that, because otherwise it would be quite boring.” — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (16:22)

Personal and Professional Journey

• Controversial Appointment – Zuchtriegel’s youth and perceived inexperience stirred significant resistance upon his appointment.
  • “Too young, inexperienced. So we had people resigning from the scientific board… I have to concentrate on what I would like to do in Pompeii.” — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (16:53)
• Building Trust – Through dedication and teamwork, he overcame skepticism and guided significant new projects.

The Eruption of 79 AD: Catastrophe and Preservation

• Human Experience in Crisis – Ancient citizens, unaware of Vesuvius’s volcanic threat, experienced the disaster as a cosmic apocalypse.
  • “They thought maybe this is now the end of the world… you had buildings collapsing… then finally it stopped… people thought, maybe it’s over. And no, it wasn’t.” — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (18:10)
• Impact of the Eruption’s Aftermath – The process of death and preservation uniquely fossilized Pompeii’s inhabitants, allowing for intimate encounters with the past.
  • “The bodies of the dead dissolve over time. But it has been preserved as negative, as an imprint, as a cavity in the underground, as a so cast. And you can make casts… You can actually look into their face, something very touching and unique.” — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (18:10)
  • Notable quote from a colleague: “This is us. We are what we excavate in a way…we are the same fragile human beings like them.” — Alessandro (reported by Gabriel Zuchtriegel, 21:04)
• Emotional Resonance – Zuchtriegel reflects on the emotional toll and the universality of human fragility.
  • “You see the children, you see the hope of their lives that were ended so abruptly. And that always reminds me of my own mortality and fragility.” — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (22:02)

Recent Excavations and Discoveries

• Largest Digs in Decades – Current excavations cover about 9,000 square meters—offering opportunities for new types of analysis that earlier archaeologists missed.
  • “Now we… can do many things, like analyzing the skeletons… In the early years of the excavation, [remains were] simply thrown away. A huge loss of data.” — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (22:49)
• Extraordinary Finds: Ancient ‘Pizza’ – A bakery fresco depicting a flatbread, possibly an ancestor to pizza, captured public imagination.
  • “It seems almost looks like a pizza… Of course, that can’t be, because they had no tomatoes at the time and no mozzarella. But… we could reasonably call it the ancestor of the pizza…” — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (23:48)

Personal Reflections

• Solitude in Pompeii – Zuchtriegel cherishes nocturnal walks through the empty ancient city, feeling a deep sense of connection to its past.
  • “In the nighttime, without any light… it’s almost as if the city comes back to life in a way… you feel like the owners must have just left five minutes ago.” — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (24:33)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “Archaeology has this focus on the material evidence, so it’s in a way more democratic because the texts often are written by the powerful...”
  — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (03:35)

• “This is us. We are what we excavate in a way... we are the same fragile human beings like them.”
  — Alessandro, via Gabriel Zuchtriegel (21:04)

• “Don’t buy anything. Ancient objects, go to museums. Don’t have it at your home. That’s the best response, I think.”
  — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (09:14)

• “You see the children, you see the hope of their lives that were ended so abruptly. And that always reminds me of my own mortality and fragility.”
  — Gabriel Zuchtriegel (22:02)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:15 – On the democracy of archaeology and forgotten lives of Pompeii
• 04:37 – Discovery of social stratification and signs of a middle class
• 06:50 – Critique of “collector syndrome” in tourism
• 07:39 – Theft, atonement, and the legend of the Pompeii curse
• 09:14 – The international looting problem and its impact on archaeology
• 11:10 – Should the British Museum return the Elgin Marbles?
• 15:17 – Serendipitous discoveries at Paestum and Pompeii
• 16:53 – Overcoming controversy as a young director
• 18:10 – Harrowing details of the eruption and unique preservation of victims
• 21:04 – Emotional impact of encountering Pompeii’s victims
• 22:49 – Scope and significance of current excavations
• 23:48 – The “ancestor of pizza” fresco find
• 24:33 – Zuchtriegel’s poetic nocturnal walks in Pompeii

Conclusion

This conversation highlights Gabriel Zuchtriegel’s thoughtful and passionate stewardship of Pompeii and the broader questions facing archaeology today: who gets to tell history, how should the past be preserved, and what responsibilities do modern institutions and individuals have toward ancient heritage. Through Zuchtriegel’s eyes, Pompeii is not just an artifact, but a living lesson in humanity, vulnerability, and the enduring quest to understand our collective story.