The Interview — HARDtalk: Coda (BBC World Service, March 28, 2025)

Episode Overview

This special episode of The Interview marks the closing of the iconic BBC World Service programme, HARDtalk, after three decades. Host Stephen Sackur revisits some of the show's most gripping and consequential interviews—from autocrats and political titans to courageous dissidents—highlighting HARDtalk’s unwavering commitment to holding power to account. The episode weaves together dramatic moments from the archives, drawing out key themes such as democracy, abuse of power, freedom of the press, human rights, and the capacity of ordinary people to drive change.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Democracy, Socialism, and the Rule of Law

Guest: Hugo Chavez, President of Venezuela
Timestamp: 01:08–03:44

• Central Exchange: Stephen Sackur challenges Hugo Chavez on whether a democratic and law-abiding socialism is possible, considering international criticisms of his government.
• Chavez’s Position: Dismisses the notion that capitalism and democracy can coexist, asserting, “Democracy is impossible in a capitalist system. Capitalism is the realm of injustice and a tyranny of the richest against the poorest.”
  • Quote: “Rousseau said, between the powerful and the weak, all freedom is oppressed. Only the rule of law sets you free. That's why the only way to save the world is through socialism, a democratic socialism.” (02:24)
• Criticism of Dissent Response: Sackur questions Chavez's tolerance for criticism, specifically his expulsion of Human Rights Watch officials. Chavez counters that he respects all opinions but has the right to respond to “lies or... half truths.” He deflects criticism by pointing to US foreign policy.

2. Repression and Freedom of the Press

Guest: Gotabaya Rajapaksa, Sri Lankan Defence Minister
Timestamp: 03:44–07:38

• Allegations of Authoritarianism: Sackur confronts Rajapaksa with allegations regarding the lack of press freedom and targeted killings of journalists.
  • Quote: “It's not propaganda that the editor of the Leader was assassinated on the streets of the capital. That's not propaganda. No.” (05:06)
• Rajapaksa’s Defense: He claims criticism is based on opposition propaganda, minimizes documented incidents, and refuses responsibility for murdered journalists.
• War Crimes Allegations: When pressed on accusations by imprisoned General Fonseca, Rajapaksa brands him a traitor and openly threatens, “We will hang him if we do that. I'm telling you that's a treason.” (07:27)

3. Genocide Allegations and International Justice

Guest: Omar Al Bashir, President of Sudan
Interviewer: Zainab Badawi
Timestamp: 07:38–10:51

• ICC Charges: Bashir flatly denies all charges of genocide and atrocities in Darfur, dismissing evidence as lies, and accuses Western-backed organizations of destabilization.
  • Quote: “This is all lies. The reality on the ground proves otherwise.” (08:00)
• Death Toll Discrepancies: Rejects UN estimates of 300,000 deaths, offering no credible alternative.
• Ceasefire Proposal: Refuses the notion of a unilateral ceasefire, insisting on responding to “insurrection against the state."

4. The Costs of Opposition and People Power

Guest: Alexei Navalny, Russian opposition leader
Timestamp: 10:51–14:35

• Personal Risk: Sackur underscores the deadly risks for Russian opposition figures. Navalny responds resolutely, emphasizing his commitment to activism despite the dangers.
  • Quote: “I just do what I can do in this particular moment, and I don't care about what Kremlin is doing.” (11:51)
• Faith in Mass Mobilization: Navalny insists that only “people power” can challenge the Kremlin. He references previous protests that secured his release after imprisonment.
  • Quote: “Actually, it's only tool I can do. It's only I have.” (13:50)
• On Repression: He articulates the real toll of harassment: “My brother… is in solitary confinement and they are really torturing him every time when I'm issuing new investigations. So I'm a guy from the real life here in Russia and… I do believe that people's support can prevail.” (14:07)

5. The Kremlin’s Response

Guest: Dmitry Peskov, Putin’s spokesman
Timestamp: 14:35–17:48

• Opposition’s Position: Sackur presses Peskov about the lack of opposition voices on Russian television. Peskov insists it's the opposition’s weakness, not state repression, that limits their reach.
  • Quote: “Well, you have modern media and viewership of television is diminishing day by day.” (15:46)
• Judiciary and Corruption: When challenged about politically motivated charges and personal wealth, Peskov defends Russia’s court system and stonewalls:
  • On property allegations: “If we're here to discuss the cost of my villa, I hope it's quite expensive.” (17:43)

6. Public Service and Political Integrity

Guest: Boris Johnson, then Mayor of London
Timestamp: 18:59–20:24

• Second Jobs for Politicians: Sackur questions whether Johnson’s lucrative newspaper column compromises his full-time public service.
  • Quote: “You have a massive job… and yet you have a contract… worth £250,000 a year. Chicken feed?” (18:59)
• Johnson’s Retort: Dismisses conflict, citing speed of writing and charitable donations; sidesteps questions about party leader’s rules and focus.

7. American Democracy and Leadership

Guest: Nancy Pelosi, former US House Speaker
Timestamp: 20:24–23:47

• January 6 and Political Violence: Sackur brings up Pelosi’s caught-on-camera wish to “punch out” Donald Trump; she affirms the statement unapologetically and contextualizes her anger.
  • Quote: “Nobody get any equivalence to my saying I want to punch him out, which I've wanted to do for a long time, but now he gave me more reason…” (21:27)
• Defending Democracy: Pelosi underscores her oath to protect the Constitution and frames the Capitol mob as a direct assault on US democracy.
• Joe Biden’s Candidacy: Responding to concerns about Biden’s age, Pelosi champions his wisdom, empathy, and achievements, encouraging optimism:
  • Quote: “We don't care about the negative. We're about the positive… 15 months from now, Joe Biden reelected as President of the United States with great pride…” (23:27)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Hugo Chavez:
  “Democracy is impossible in a capitalist system. Capitalism is the realm of injustice…” (02:11)

• Gotabaya Rajapaksa:
  “We will hang him if we do that. I'm telling you that's a treason.” (07:27)

• Omar Al Bashir:
  “We do not accept the death of even one citizen. We are for peace.” (09:49)

• Alexei Navalny:
  “My brother… is in solitary confinement and they are really torturing him every time when I'm issuing new investigations.” (14:07)

• Dmitry Peskov:
  “If we're here to discuss the cost of my villa, I hope it's quite expensive.” (17:43)

• Boris Johnson:
  “…I write, happen to write extremely fast. I don't see why on a Sunday morning I shouldn't knock off an article. If someone wants to pay me for that article, then that's their lookout.” (20:00)

• Nancy Pelosi:
  “It's not about fear, it's about hope. And you'll see, 15 months from now, Joe Biden reelected as President of the United States with great pride, as you say.” (23:27)

Key Timestamps

• [01:08] Welcome and introduction to the history and ethos of HARDtalk
• [02:03] Hugo Chavez on socialism and democracy
• [04:24] Gotabaya Rajapaksa on authoritarianism and press freedom
• [07:38] Omar Al Bashir’s denial of Darfur war crimes
• [10:51] Alexei Navalny on opposition and personal risk in Russia
• [14:35] Dmitry Peskov on the Russian state and corruption allegations
• [18:59] Boris Johnson on political integrity and outside earnings
• [20:24] Nancy Pelosi on January 6th and Joe Biden’s presidency
• [23:47] Stephen Sackur’s closing reflection on HARDtalk’s legacy

Tone and Legacy

The episode balances gravitas and engagement, drawing from archival audio to surface the emotional peaks and ideological conflicts of confronting world leaders. Sackur’s incisive questioning and the directness of guests—whether defending power or fighting it—reflect HARDtalk’s uncompromising journalistic voice. The retrospective is framed not as a farewell but as a celebration and affirmation of accountability, dogged inquiry, and the enduring value of independent journalism.

“I hope we've shown that accountability matters. Maybe now more than ever. Thanks for listening.” — Stephen Sackur ([23:47])