HARDtalk: Coda

Summary

The Interview — HARDtalk: Coda (BBC World Service, March 28, 2025)

Episode Overview

This special episode of The Interview marks the closing of the iconic BBC World Service programme, HARDtalk, after three decades. Host Stephen Sackur revisits some of the show's most gripping and consequential interviews—from autocrats and political titans to courageous dissidents—highlighting HARDtalk’s unwavering commitment to holding power to account. The episode weaves together dramatic moments from the archives, drawing out key themes such as democracy, abuse of power, freedom of the press, human rights, and the capacity of ordinary people to drive change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Democracy, Socialism, and the Rule of Law

Guest: Hugo Chavez, President of Venezuela
Timestamp: 01:08–03:44

• Central Exchange: Stephen Sackur challenges Hugo Chavez on whether a democratic and law-abiding socialism is possible, considering international criticisms of his government.
• Chavez’s Position: Dismisses the notion that capitalism and democracy can coexist, asserting, “Democracy is impossible in a capitalist system. Capitalism is the realm of injustice and a tyranny of the richest against the poorest.”
  • Quote: “Rousseau said, between the powerful and the weak, all freedom is oppressed. Only the rule of law sets you free. That's why the only way to save the world is through socialism, a democratic socialism.” (02:24)
• Criticism of Dissent Response: Sackur questions Chavez's tolerance for criticism, specifically his expulsion of Human Rights Watch officials. Chavez counters that he respects all opinions but has the right to respond to “lies or... half truths.” He deflects criticism by pointing to US foreign policy.

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2. Repression and Freedom of the Press

Guest: Gotabaya Rajapaksa, Sri Lankan Defence Minister
Timestamp: 03:44–07:38

• Allegations of Authoritarianism: Sackur confronts Rajapaksa with allegations regarding the lack of press freedom and targeted killings of journalists.
  • Quote: “It's not propaganda that the editor of the Leader was assassinated on the streets of the capital. That's not propaganda. No.” (05:06)
• Rajapaksa’s Defense: He claims criticism is based on opposition propaganda, minimizes documented incidents, and refuses responsibility for murdered journalists.
• War Crimes Allegations: When pressed on accusations by imprisoned General Fonseca, Rajapaksa brands him a traitor and openly threatens, “We will hang him if we do that. I'm telling you that's a treason.” (07:27)

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3. Genocide Allegations and International Justice

Guest: Omar Al Bashir, President of Sudan
Interviewer: Zainab Badawi
Timestamp: 07:38–10:51

• ICC Charges: Bashir flatly denies all charges of genocide and atrocities in Darfur, dismissing evidence as lies, and accuses Western-backed organizations of destabilization.
  • Quote: “This is all lies. The reality on the ground proves otherwise.” (08:00)
• Death Toll Discrepancies: Rejects UN estimates of 300,000 deaths, offering no credible alternative.
• Ceasefire Proposal: Refuses the notion of a unilateral ceasefire, insisting on responding to “insurrection against the state."

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4. The Costs of Opposition and People Power

Guest: Alexei Navalny, Russian opposition leader
Timestamp: 10:51–14:35

• Personal Risk: Sackur underscores the deadly risks for Russian opposition figures. Navalny responds resolutely, emphasizing his commitment to activism despite the dangers.
  • Quote: “I just do what I can do in this particular moment, and I don't care about what Kremlin is doing.” (11:51)
• Faith in Mass Mobilization: Navalny insists that only “people power” can challenge the Kremlin. He references previous protests that secured his release after imprisonment.
  • Quote: “Actually, it's only tool I can do. It's only I have.” (13:50)
• On Repression: He articulates the real toll of harassment: “My brother… is in solitary confinement and they are really torturing him every time when I'm issuing new investigations. So I'm a guy from the real life here in Russia and… I do believe that people's support can prevail.” (14:07)

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5. The Kremlin’s Response

Guest: Dmitry Peskov, Putin’s spokesman
Timestamp: 14:35–17:48

• Opposition’s Position: Sackur presses Peskov about the lack of opposition voices on Russian television. Peskov insists it's the opposition’s weakness, not state repression, that limits their reach.
  • Quote: “Well, you have modern media and viewership of television is diminishing day by day.” (15:46)
• Judiciary and Corruption: When challenged about politically motivated charges and personal wealth, Peskov defends Russia’s court system and stonewalls:
  • On property allegations: “If we're here to discuss the cost of my villa, I hope it's quite expensive.” (17:43)

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6. Public Service and Political Integrity

Guest: Boris Johnson, then Mayor of London
Timestamp: 18:59–20:24

• Second Jobs for Politicians: Sackur questions whether Johnson’s lucrative newspaper column compromises his full-time public service.
  • Quote: “You have a massive job… and yet you have a contract… worth £250,000 a year. Chicken feed?” (18:59)
• Johnson’s Retort: Dismisses conflict, citing speed of writing and charitable donations; sidesteps questions about party leader’s rules and focus.

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7. American Democracy and Leadership

Guest: Nancy Pelosi, former US House Speaker
Timestamp: 20:24–23:47

• January 6 and Political Violence: Sackur brings up Pelosi’s caught-on-camera wish to “punch out” Donald Trump; she affirms the statement unapologetically and contextualizes her anger.
  • Quote: “Nobody get any equivalence to my saying I want to punch him out, which I've wanted to do for a long time, but now he gave me more reason…” (21:27)
• Defending Democracy: Pelosi underscores her oath to protect the Constitution and frames the Capitol mob as a direct assault on US democracy.
• Joe Biden’s Candidacy: Responding to concerns about Biden’s age, Pelosi champions his wisdom, empathy, and achievements, encouraging optimism:
  • Quote: “We don't care about the negative. We're about the positive… 15 months from now, Joe Biden reelected as President of the United States with great pride…” (23:27)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Hugo Chavez:
  “Democracy is impossible in a capitalist system. Capitalism is the realm of injustice…” (02:11)

• Gotabaya Rajapaksa:
  “We will hang him if we do that. I'm telling you that's a treason.” (07:27)

• Omar Al Bashir:
  “We do not accept the death of even one citizen. We are for peace.” (09:49)

• Alexei Navalny:
  “My brother… is in solitary confinement and they are really torturing him every time when I'm issuing new investigations.” (14:07)

• Dmitry Peskov:
  “If we're here to discuss the cost of my villa, I hope it's quite expensive.” (17:43)

• Boris Johnson:
  “…I write, happen to write extremely fast. I don't see why on a Sunday morning I shouldn't knock off an article. If someone wants to pay me for that article, then that's their lookout.” (20:00)

• Nancy Pelosi:
  “It's not about fear, it's about hope. And you'll see, 15 months from now, Joe Biden reelected as President of the United States with great pride, as you say.” (23:27)

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Key Timestamps

• [01:08] Welcome and introduction to the history and ethos of HARDtalk
• [02:03] Hugo Chavez on socialism and democracy
• [04:24] Gotabaya Rajapaksa on authoritarianism and press freedom
• [07:38] Omar Al Bashir’s denial of Darfur war crimes
• [10:51] Alexei Navalny on opposition and personal risk in Russia
• [14:35] Dmitry Peskov on the Russian state and corruption allegations
• [18:59] Boris Johnson on political integrity and outside earnings
• [20:24] Nancy Pelosi on January 6th and Joe Biden’s presidency
• [23:47] Stephen Sackur’s closing reflection on HARDtalk’s legacy

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Tone and Legacy

The episode balances gravitas and engagement, drawing from archival audio to surface the emotional peaks and ideological conflicts of confronting world leaders. Sackur’s incisive questioning and the directness of guests—whether defending power or fighting it—reflect HARDtalk’s uncompromising journalistic voice. The retrospective is framed not as a farewell but as a celebration and affirmation of accountability, dogged inquiry, and the enduring value of independent journalism.

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“I hope we've shown that accountability matters. Maybe now more than ever. Thanks for listening.” — Stephen Sackur ([23:47])

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Transcript

[Boris Johnson]

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[Nancy Pelosi]

You don't look like.

[Stephen Sackur]

Please.

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[Stephen Sackur]

Welcome to Hard Talk on the BBC World Service with me, Stephen Sacher. Today we're bringing you a special program to mark the closing of Hard Talk after three decades of holding power to account across the world, from democracies to dictatorships. We've spoken to presidents, prime ministers and those leading movements for change. It's journalism that has mattered to us, and we hope it's mattered to you too. So listen again to some of the highlights as Hard Talk digs deep into the archive. In 2010 I travelled to Venezuela and spoke to the president, Hugo Chavez. You say it's possible to have some form of capitalism within a socialist system. Is it possible to have genuine democracy and genuine respect for the rule of law within your socialism?

[Hugo Chavez]

I'll tell you something. 11 years ago I arrived here and was quite gullible. I even believed in a third way, but it was all a farce. I thought it was possible to put together a type of Rhenish capitalism, to put a human face on capitalism. But I realized this was not possible. I was wrong. Democracy is impossible in a capitalist system. Capitalism is the realm of injustice and a tyranny of the richest against the poorest. Rousseau said, between the powerful and the weak, all freedom is oppressed. Only the rule of law sets you free. That's why the only way to save the world is through socialism, a democratic socialism. There's no dictatorship here. I was elected three times and when the rich threw me out in a coup, the people brought me back to power. I'm a Democrat.

[Stephen Sackur]

Mr. President, there are many different international groups, Latin American groups, who've questioned your commitment to the rule of law. When Human Rights Watch wrote a report about this very subject, you threw out the two people who wrote the report. So it seems that whenever people are critical of your record, you do not accept it.

[Hugo Chavez]

Firstly, I respect the opinion of any person or institution in the world, but I have the same right to answer back when I think they are lying or are telling half truths or are using lies to make continual allegations against Venezuela. I'd like to see the human rights reports on the United States government, which bombs cities and kills children.

[Stephen Sackur]

Inevitably, some recurring themes have emerged in our interviews with leaders from around the world. Respect, or lack of it, for human rights and the rule of law, integrity and honesty in government. I've had the privilege of asking the kind of questions which citizens want answered, but which journalists in many countries are under enormous pressure on not to ask. During a trip to Sri Lanka in 2010, I spoke to the Defence Minister, the President's brother, Gotabhiya Rajapaksa. There is an authoritarian tendency in Sri Lanka, no? Is it justifiable?

[Gotabaya Rajapaksa]

For example, this is very unfair to use these words. It's very unfair. We have a democratically elected president, a democratically elected government.

[Stephen Sackur]

But you don't. You don't, for example, have a free press, do you?

[Gotabaya Rajapaksa]

I don't know why people are harping on these things.

[Stephen Sackur]

Well, I'll tell you why. Because internationally there is great concern that journalists who write perhaps critical pieces about your government end up serious trouble and some of them end up dead, as you well know.

[Gotabaya Rajapaksa]

These are LTT propaganda. These are propaganda by the people who are against the government. So the international.

[Stephen Sackur]

No, forgive me. It's not propaganda that La Santa Criminal, for example, the editor of the Leader was assassinated on the streets of the capital. That's not propaganda. No.

[Gotabaya Rajapaksa]

Read the papers, read the daily papers, read the weekend papers.

[Stephen Sackur]

Well, I've read all of.

[Gotabaya Rajapaksa]

How many tabloids criticizing the government, Criticizing the power. Criticizing is fine, but how many bogus reports? How many mud thing. You know.

[Stephen Sackur]

But hang on a minute. When Mr. Wicker Matunga wrote his valedictory piece, he foretold his own death. He wrote this, he said, and this is just days before he was shot dead on the streets of Colombo. Murder, he said, has become the primary tool whereby the state seeks to control the organs of liberty.

[Gotabaya Rajapaksa]

Don't go by these people who are writing against. You know, there are.

[Stephen Sackur]

Now he's not writing anymore.

[Gotabaya Rajapaksa]

He's dead.

[Stephen Sackur]

Are you worried that you personally may be accused of war crimes.

[Gotabaya Rajapaksa]

I'm not worried because I have not done any crime, as you know. That is not fighting terrorism a crime.

[Stephen Sackur]

Depends how you fight it. Yeah, depends what you do.

[Gotabaya Rajapaksa]

There is only way to fight terrorism. Fight? No, but I don't see it.

[Stephen Sackur]

If you believe you're involved in a war on terror, it would not allow you, for example, to give an order to one of your senior officers telling him to shoot people who are trying to surrender waving a white flag.

[Gotabaya Rajapaksa]

I have never.

[Stephen Sackur]

I would still be a war.

[Gotabaya Rajapaksa]

Nobody had done that. Nobody had.

[Stephen Sackur]

Well, you know that the army commander at the end of the war has since given interviews in which he says he has information that you gave an army commander the instructions.

[Gotabaya Rajapaksa]

Oh, don't grab these political issues. You know what who he is, he contested for his, you know, personal gains. So don't drag him into this.

[Stephen Sackur]

Is General Fonseca who says he has information that you gave the order.

[Gotabaya Rajapaksa]

That is a political. That's a political game.

[Stephen Sackur]

Well, that's what I want to pursue now. I want to talk about that. I want to talk about that. You keep saying it's a political game. Is the fact that General Fonseca is now in detention. He's lying, Is in detention, he faces court martial. Is that because he in essence accused you of a war crime? And he also said he would be prepared to.

[Gotabaya Rajapaksa]

That's one point.

[Stephen Sackur]

And he also said. Hang on, that's one point. He also said he would testify before an independent war crimes investigation. Is that what you are frightened about?

[Gotabaya Rajapaksa]

Yes, it is. That one point. He can't do that. He was the commander. He's responsible. That's a treason. We will hang him if we do that. I'm telling you that's a treason.

[Stephen Sackur]

In 2009, my colleague Zaynab Badawi went to Sudan to speak to the president, Omar Al Bashir.

[Interviewer (Sudan segment)]

Do you understand, Mr. President, how serious these charges are against you? Seven counts against you. Murder, extermination, forcible transfer of population, torture and rape.

[Omar Al Bashir]

This is all lies. The reality on the ground proves otherwise. People who allege torture, once they left the fighting zones, they changed their testimony to the contrary. I mean, all the displaced people sought refuge in areas controlled by the government, by the armed forces and the police. They enjoyed the protection and security of the government. So how come that on the one hand, they allege that the government is behind the torture, yet at the same time they flee those zones to seek protection of the government.

[Interviewer (Sudan segment)]

How many people do you think have died in Darfur, the United Nations. John Holmes, the humanitarian coordinator, says up to 300,000. He says that's an extrapolation. What is your figure?

[Omar Al Bashir]

We say that all these figures are fictitious. They have nothing to do with reality. And as I said, all events in Darfur.

[Interviewer (Sudan segment)]

How do you know, Mr. President, how many have died? You're saying it's an exaggeration. Do you know how many have died?

[Omar Al Bashir]

Yes. Any incident that happens in Darfur, we have it reported. If there is a dispute between citizens, as we have government departments there, they take care of it. And there is strife between the armed forces or the insurgents.

[Interviewer (Sudan segment)]

So how many you've given a figure?

[Omar Al Bashir]

What we say is that our armed forces also had casualties also among the insurgents, and the tribes also had their own losses. There are also tribal strifes and fighting. This had nothing to do with any ethnic background. It could be between an Arab tribe and another.

[Interviewer (Sudan segment)]

Do you regret that? Do you regret those 10,000?

[Omar Al Bashir]

We do not accept the death of even one citizen. We are for peace. We have signed a peace agreement. But there are organizations and movements supported by the west who carry arms against the state. Give me an example of one state in the world where there are insurgents who launch armed attacks against the state and the government did not try to.

[Interviewer (Sudan segment)]

You could, as the Sudanese government, simply declare a unilateral ceasefire in Darfur so the killing could stop. Unamid says we can monitor the ceasefire. Why don't you do that? Have a unilateral ceasefire.

[Omar Al Bashir]

Firstly, there is an insurrection against the state and they refused a ceasefire. After that, we have to protect the country and the citizens. If they reject peace, we cannot stand idle. We should fight, but we are not going to wait and allow the rebel movements a free hand to control Darfur.

[Interviewer (Sudan segment)]

So the violence continues. The peace process is going nowhere.

[Omar Al Bashir]

Who is responsible for that?

[Stephen Sackur]

Hard Talk hasn't just spoken to those in power. It has also interviewed those seeking to challenge power. In many countries, political protest dissolved dissent. Opposition carries with it great risk and courage is a quality that I have encountered many times over the years. Back in 2017, I spoke to Alexei Navalny, one of the few prominent Russians ready to make a stand against President Vladimir Putin. The anti corruption campaigner and opposition leader was targeted for assassination in 2020. He miraculously survived n nerve agent poisoning. After recovering in Germany, he returned to Russia knowing he was a marked man. He was convicted of financial crimes and imprisoned in the harshest of conditions. He died in prison in February 2024. You know that you are treading a very fine line. And if you go one inch too far, you'll end up in prison or who knows.

[Alexei Navalny]

I definitely don't draw this line for myself. I just do what I can do in this particular moment, and I don't care about what Kremlin is doing, what their strategy about keeping me in prison or releasing me. Maybe you know that I had actually a moment when they imprisoned me for five years and I spent the night in the prison knowing nothing about what's going on in Moscow, where tens of thousand people came in the street and they forced actually Vladimir Putin to release me. And about, you know, this discussion, you have your moments and now your moment is gone. These people who came in the street, they are not gone. They still living in the city, they still living in the country.

[Stephen Sackur]

And let me stop you there. Are you absolutely determined? You talk about your run for the presidency, you're determined, come what may, to challenge Vladimir Putin in the election which we believe will come in 2018. You are going to run, are you?

[Alexei Navalny]

Yeah, I'm going to run. And, well, I'm not a naive person. I understand that Kremlin is very unhappy with me running. And I understand that they will do everything to prevent me from running. And recently several Kremlin's officials said that he's not allowed to participate. But still, I'm going to appeal to the people and ask for them support.

[Stephen Sackur]

I mean, in this office where we speak, you've already got your logos organized Navalny 2018. But I put it to you that if you lose this court case in Kirov, based on accusations of embezzlement and fraud, you will be barred from running. And whatever you tell me about your.

[Alexei Navalny]

Determination actually doesn't nothing in the current country. Well, as I said, they imprisoned me for five years and they released me on the next day. So you what kind of law? The same. With my participation in mayor election, it was almost impossible to participate. But when people came in the street and said, we are not going to recognize this election without him participating.

[Stephen Sackur]

So you think you can use people power against Putin?

[Alexei Navalny]

Actually, it's only tool I can do. It's only I have.

[Stephen Sackur]

But Mr. Navalny, I'm tempted to say to you, get real. You know what happened to Khodorkovsky, you know what happened to Kasparov, who's now in exile. You know what happened to Boris?

[Alexei Navalny]

That's real. I am real. I can assure you that I'm real. And my brothers speak. Spending his time in jail, he's took away from his family, as you mentioned. He's in solitary confinement and they are really torturing him every time when I'm issuing new investigations. So I'm a guy from the real life here in Russia and I understand everything and I do believe that people's support can prevail. This strategy, what kind of strategy Putin has against me?

[Stephen Sackur]

At Hardtalk, we've strived to maintain a reputation for independent, impartial interviewing. That's why people have been prepared to talk to us across cross the deepest divides. During the same visit to Russia, I also spoke to Dmitry Peskov, the spokesman for President Vladimir Putin. I just spoke to Alexei Navalny, perhaps the leading voice in opposition to President Putin. He said to me, you know why Putin fights these wars? Why? He is projecting Russia's power in different arenas around the world. He is trying to distract the Russian people from what is going on inside their own country. The the millions and millions condemned to live in poverty. The systemic corruption which is seeing a tiny elite at the top enriching themselves on the back of the majority of Russians who see no growth, no prosperity. That's what he's going to campaign on. And that is going to cause you and your boss a great deal of trouble.

[Dmitry Peskov]

Well, you know, unfortunately we have a very weaker position in our country.

[Stephen Sackur]

I wonder why that is. Could it be because they're not allowed access to state television, for example?

[Dmitry Peskov]

No, it's not about state television. Well, you have modern media. You have modern media and viewership of television is diminishing day by day.

[Stephen Sackur]

In Russia today, if you switch on the TV and you want to find an opposition voice, it is almost impossible.

[Dmitry Peskov]

American president is winning elections using Twitter. In order to be a successful opposition, you have to be sustainable. You have to have a program of development of the country.

[Stephen Sackur]

You also have to be allowed a semblance of freedom. You have to be a person who is not at risk of being assassinated, as Boris Nemtsov was just 100 meters from the Kremlin. You have to be a guy unlike Alexei Navalny, who finds his brother is locked up on trumped up charges and he himself is facing more trumped up charges. You need a space, a freedom to operate and build a political movement in Russia today. You know as well as I do that's impossible.

[Dmitry Peskov]

Why don't you think that they are not fair charges?

[Stephen Sackur]

Because the European Court of Human Rights has declared that they are political and it said that they were illegitimate.

[Dmitry Peskov]

We don't agree with that. We don't agree with.

[Stephen Sackur]

You don't agree with the European Court of Human Rights? When they analyze all of the evidence.

[Dmitry Peskov]

I'd rather trust our own court. And we do have much more confidence in our own court system.

[Stephen Sackur]

Do you read Alexei Navalny's Anti Corruption foundation website?

[Dmitry Peskov]

Once in a while. Once in a while, yes.

[Stephen Sackur]

You'd have seen your own name up there.

[Dmitry Peskov]

Yeah, yeah. Most frequently, yeah.

[Stephen Sackur]

He. He wants to know how come a guy like you, a public servant, on a, you know, not bad, but modest salary, how you come you live in a villa, which he's very pleased to show me, you know, which is worth, he says, because he's spoken to the realtors, $15 million. And of course, the very famous watch of yours, which was worth 400.

[Dmitry Peskov]

Double check. Try to double check it with different realty estate agencies. Try to double check that.

[Stephen Sackur]

Do you want to tell me how much your villa is worth? I'm very happy to take your estimate.

[Dmitry Peskov]

If we're here to discuss the cost of my villa, I hope it's quite expensive.

[Stephen Sackur]

HARDtalk has travelled the world in pursuit of interviews that matter. It's taken us to dictatorships, to one party states, war zones and disputed territories. But wherever we've set up our cameras, and whether in a land where independent journalism is welcome or unwelcome, we've adopted the same impartial, rigorous approach. Whether in London or Washington, Caracas or Moscow, the job has been to hold power to account. In 2009, I spoke to the then Mayor of London, who later became Prime Minister of the uk, Boris Johnson. The leader of your party, the Conservative Party, David Cameron, is trying to take a grip, at least as far as he can, on his own party. He's told his shadow cabinet that they must abandon all their outside activities, their second jobs, by the end of the year. Now, you are the Mayor of London. I checked this morning. I believe your salary is just short of £140,000. You have a massive job. You've just told me how dizzyingly exciting and challenging it is, and yet you have a contract. I do. With a national newspaper worth £250,000 a year. Chicken feet.

[Boris Johnson]

Yeah, okay.

[Stephen Sackur]

Chicken feet.

[Boris Johnson]

Listen, let's be.

[Stephen Sackur]

You know, most people in London were regarded as chicken, particularly at a time of economic recession, that you're earning £250,000 on the side as a newspaper.

[Boris Johnson]

Well, I don't. I don't presume to ask what you earn from the taxpayer. And I think that, frankly, there's absolutely no reason at all why I should not, on a Sunday morning, before I, you know, do whatever else I need to do on a Sunday morning, should not knock off an article as a way of relaxation, a kind of mental, why shouldn't I? I mean, do you really see a reason why? I think it's, I'm just looking at.

[Stephen Sackur]

Your party leader who has sent a signal to all of his senior people saying you can't have these outside activities. If the public are to believe that we are truly committed to serving their purposes, we have to be fully focused on the job at hand. I'm wondering when you're getting quarter of a million pounds a year from somebody else for writing, whether you're really fully focused on your job as mayor.

[Boris Johnson]

Well, as I say, I see absolutely no reason why I should not, you know, do what I, I write anyway. I write, happen to write extremely fast. I don't see why on a Sunday morning I shouldn't knock off an article. If someone wants to pay me for that article, then that's their lookout. And of course, I make a substantial donation to charity from, you know, maybe that money should not go to charity. Maybe you'd rather I didn't make those contributions to charity.

[Stephen Sackur]

In 2023, I spoke to the former speaker of the US House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi. You were at the center of the storm on January 6, 2021, when the Capitol was invaded by a rioting mob. They invaded your office. People have since been prosecuted, convicted and imprisoned for what they did. You said at the time it was caught on camera, you didn't know it was being filmed. But you said at the time all this was unfolding and you'd been to flee. You said about the prospect of Trump coming to the Capitol. I hope he comes. I want to punch him out. This is the moment. I've been waiting for it. I want to punch him out. I'm going to go to jail and I'm going to be happy.

[Nancy Pelosi]

That's right, I said that. You know, I didn't realize that would be broadcast or went out there.

[Stephen Sackur]

But yeah, I understand the level of your anger, but doesn't that suggest that you, in a sense, were drawn in to this toxic political culture, which many Americans right now could lead to further political, political violence?

[Nancy Pelosi]

Nobody get any equivalence to my saying I want to punch him out, which I've wanted to do for a long time, but now he gave me more reason to what is happening at the Capitol. So don't try to put any.

[Stephen Sackur]

I'm not suggesting that equivalence. All I'm saying is that your anger, your sense that this was undermining America's democratic system has its own feedback loop. And that right now, America.

[Nancy Pelosi]

But we're on the right track. We are honoring our oath of office to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. Now, the Constitution of the United States on that day said that Congress would accept the Electoral College vote. That is why they were there that day, to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. Yeah, my oath of office said I have to defend that.

[Stephen Sackur]

There are many Americans, again, according to the polls, who think Joe Biden should not run again because he's simply too old.

[Nancy Pelosi]

But three years older than. What's his name, your friend? He's three years older than. Yeah, that's a big deal.

[Stephen Sackur]

I don't wish to be ungallant, but you are 82 and you have handed over power in the, in the Democratic Party, in the House of Representatives to what you called a new generation.

[Nancy Pelosi]

That's right.

[Stephen Sackur]

Should Joe Biden be learning from you?

[Nancy Pelosi]

No. Joe Biden is the President of the United States. We have a great President. He's accomplished more.

[Stephen Sackur]

People see Joe Biden's mental and physical health. They see it every day on their TV screens. They are drawing conclusions. A clear majority say he is too old, he should not run again. And that's Democrats, many of those Democrats.

[Nancy Pelosi]

And if you ask those Democrats, they support Joe Biden, they're not supporting somebody else, because Joe Biden is all. Joe Biden is wise. He has knowledge. He has a beautiful vision for America. He has knowledge of the issues, therefore judgment and wisdom. He has strategic thinking about getting things done. That's why his presidency has been so successful on the domestic front. He has empathy and cares about working class families and. And we have to communicate that better to the American people. And that is what a campaign is about. We don't care about the negative. We're about the positive. It's not about fear, it's about hope. And you'll see, 15 months from now, Joe Biden reelected as President of the United States with great pride, as you say.

[Stephen Sackur]

We'll see. It has been a pleasure and a privilege for us on Hard Talk to be able to bring you three decades of interviews with global leaders. I hope we've shown that accountability matters. Maybe now more than ever. Thanks for listening.

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