HARDtalk: The early years review

Summary

Podcast Summary: HARDtalk – The Early Years Review

Podcast: The Interview (BBC World Service)
Episode: HARDtalk: The Early Years Review
Date: March 24, 2025
Host/Narrator: Stephen Sacker
Featured Presenters: Tim Sebastian, George Alagiah
Notable Guests: Donald Trump, Mira Markovic, Nelson Mandela, Nina Simone, Robin Williams, Martha Gellhorn

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Overview

This special episode of The Interview revisits the formative years of BBC’s iconic HARDtalk program, offering insightful excerpts from in-depth interviews with some of the most influential figures of recent history. Host Stephen Sacker reflects on the show’s remarkable archive, highlighting memorable encounters conducted by original presenters Tim Sebastian and the late George Alagiah. Through candid conversations with titans of politics, culture, activism, and entertainment, the episode examines hard truths, personal struggles, moral dilemmas, and the spirit of perseverance that shaped pivotal moments of the late 20th and early 21st centuries.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Donald Trump (1998) — Business Battles and Perseverance

• On Business Philosophy
  • Tim Sebastian probed Trump about the ruthlessness required for business success.
    • Quote:

      "You have to be a killer in business, I think you have to be." – Tim Sebastian, [02:39]

    • Response:

      "Smart in business, I don’t think you have to be a killer. I think you have to be smart... There is a certain advantage to having a certain degree of paranoia." – Donald Trump, [02:45], [02:52]

• On Revenge and Survival
  • Trump unapologetically endorsed “getting even”:
    • Quote:

      "I believe strongly in getting even. ... I believe in an eye for an eye." – Donald Trump, [03:16]

• Perseverance in Adversity
  • Facing financial ruin in the 1990s, Trump described his recovery.
    • Quote:

      "It’s a little word called perseverance. I didn’t stop." – Donald Trump, [03:58]

    • "Survive till 95" became his personal mantra amid hardship.
• Reflections on Friendship and Loyalty
  • Hard times revealed “who my friends would be and who my enemies would be.” – Donald Trump, [06:05]

2. Mira Markovic (2001) — Responsibility for the Yugoslav Wars

• Deflecting Western Accusations
  • Markovic, wife of Slobodan Milosevic, rejected responsibility for Balkan atrocities.
    • Quote:

      "The bloodshed in the Balkans ... was the result of the policy pursued in the West." – Mira Markovic, [06:55]

• Challenging Accountability
  • Tim Sebastian pressed her on evidence of mass graves and deportations.
    • Quote:

      "People are not going to believe you, Mrs. Milosevic. They’ve seen the pictures." – Tim Sebastian, [08:06]

• Personal Attacks and Defiance
  • Markovic accused Sebastian of being “an exponent of hate” and “unpleasant”:
    • Quote:

      "You are a very unpleasant man. ... I am superior to you because I am telling the truth." – Mira Markovic, [09:35]

3. Nelson Mandela (1998) — The Toll and Growth of Incarceration

• Finding Value in Suffering
  • Discussing his 27-year imprisonment, Mandela stressed reflection and growing stronger.
    • Quote:

      "The ability to sit down and to think about your past, the present, and the future... I found these very rewarding." – Nelson Mandela, [10:33]

• Family Suffering
  • Mandela’s greatest pain was the persecution faced by his family:
    • Quote:

      "This was one of the things that worried me a great deal. That my wife was without security, undergoing humiliation..." – Nelson Mandela, [11:34]

• On Forgiveness and Acknowledging Adversaries
  • Although tensions with FW De Klerk were noted, Mandela emphasized the importance of honoring contributions to peaceful change.
    • Quote:

      "Whether I like him or not ... I must acknowledge what he has achieved." – Nelson Mandela, [12:29]

4. Nina Simone (1999) — Music as Resistance and Personal Anger

• Music’s Political Power
  • Simone explained the impact of protest songs.
    • Quote:

      "It has helped me for 30 years defend the rights of American blacks and Third World people... It helps to change the world." – Nina Simone, [13:42]

• Emotional Motivation
  • She clarified her singing was driven by intelligence, not anger.
    • Quote:

      "I think from intelligence. I don’t want them to think I don’t know who they are." – Nina Simone, [14:33]

• Racism and Exile
  • Candid about fleeing American racism:
    • Quote:

      "You get racism crossing the street. It's in the very fabric of American society." – Nina Simone, [15:11]

• Confrontations with the Industry
  • Simone recounted pulling a gun on a record company executive over unpaid royalties.
    • Quote:

      "I said, where’s my money?... I got a gun. It was a gun... I tried to kill him." – Nina Simone, [16:21]

  • Industry exploitation continued to this day, with “60 albums being pirated in England right now.” – Nina Simone, [17:04]

5. Robin Williams (1999) — Comedy, Fame, and Personal Recovery

• On Stand-Up Comedy
  • Williams likened the experience to “prize fighting” and something that “demands everything.”
    • Quote:

      "It’s where my whole body is... It’s really alive." – Robin Williams, [17:49]

• Coping with Fame
  • Early fame brought “fun and joy,” but also excess.
    • Quote:

      "What's finally sobered me up was the idea of having a child. ... I did it on my own because of one reason. My son and I thank God I did." – Robin Williams, [20:21]

• Using Imagination Against Loneliness
  • As an only child, he developed mimicry skills and a playful imagination.
    • Quote:

      "You adapt the imagination. You find a way of getting through it." – Robin Williams, [19:01]

• Emotional Honesty with Humor
  • Williams’ wit and vulnerability were on display:
    • Quote:

      "A warm hand on my opening." – Robin Williams, greeting, [17:41]

6. Martha Gellhorn (1997) — Bearing Witness in War

• Why Cover Wars?
  • Gellhorn highlighted war's impact on civilians, noting the increase in hardship for the unarmed.
    • Quote:

      "The worst person to be is a civilian. If you've got a chance, pick up a gun... you're much safer." – Martha Gellhorn, [21:42]

• Value of War Correspondents
  • Reporting is “useful” to remind comfortable societies of war’s reality.
    • Quote:

      "I think it's very important to remind people that these things are happening, that they are bad ... everybody can say whether they've been near a war or not. ... war is a perfectly terrible, cruel thing and it's hardest on the least privileged." – Martha Gellhorn, [23:13]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I believe in an eye for an eye." – Donald Trump, [03:16]
• "You are a very unpleasant man. ... I am superior to you because I am telling the truth." – Mira Markovic, [09:35]
• "The ability to sit down and to think about your past... I found these very rewarding." – Nelson Mandela, [10:33]
• "It has helped me for 30 years... It helps to change the world." – Nina Simone, [13:42]
• "I tried to kill him... I missed him and I went back to America." – Nina Simone, [16:21]
• "It’s where my whole body is... It’s really alive." – Robin Williams, [17:49]
• "The worst person to be is a civilian." – Martha Gellhorn, [21:42]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:35] Donald Trump: Business, adversity, and the philosophy of “getting even”
• [06:34] Mira Markovic: Defending Milosevic’s legacy and shifting blame for Yugoslav atrocities
• [10:20] Nelson Mandela: Imprisonment, personal sacrifice, and reconciliation
• [13:37] Nina Simone: Protest music, exile, and defiance of industry exploitation
• [17:39] Robin Williams: The life of comedy, substance abuse recovery, and childhood isolation
• [21:13] Martha Gellhorn: The evolving face of war and the reporter’s duty

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Tone and Language

The tone alternates between combative (Tim Sebastian’s fearless questioning), soulful and reflective (Mandela, Gellhorn), passionate and raw (Simone), and playful yet self-aware (Williams). Interviewees speak candidly, often confronting uncomfortable truths or personal failings, making for both compelling listening and enduring historical insight.

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Conclusion

This “early years” review of HARDtalk demonstrates the program’s dedication to hard-hitting, truthful journalism and unsparing inquiry. Through direct questioning and conversations with complex personalities, the episode delivers a vivid tapestry of resilience, accountability, and the human condition at the turn of the century—a fitting tribute to the show’s legacy.

Transcript

[Tim Sebastian]

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[Robin Williams]

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[Martha Gellhorn]

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[Narrator/Host]

Welcome to Hard Talk. I'm Stephen Sacker. This program began in 1997 and as you may know, it is coming to an end at the end of this month. So today we're going to look back at some of our memorable guests from the early years before my time in this studio. It is an extraordinary archive featuring presenters Tim Sebastian and the late George Alegaier. We hope you enjoy it.

[Donald Trump]

Generally, you have to shake things up pretty much in order to do something of consequence.

[Nelson Mandela]

The fact that I was sent to jail for life and I spent 27 years there, these are things which affected me collectively and individually, and they are my personal experiences. So I bought a party.

[Robin Williams]

There were moments of, you know, fun and joy. I'm not going to say I wouldn't have done it for five years or whatever, but what's finally sobered me up was the idea of having a child.

[Nina Simone]

I need a cigarette. You're making me hot. Can I have a light, please?

[Martha Gellhorn]

I think it's very important to remind people that these things are happening, that they are bad, and that the more you show just what's happening, the more everybody can say whether they've been near a war or not. They can recognize that war is a perfectly terrible, cruel thing.

[Narrator/Host]

Tim Sebastian traveled to New York to visit the then business mogul Donald Trump in 1998.

[Tim Sebastian]

You have to be a killer in business, I think you have to be.

[Donald Trump]

Smart in business, I don't think you have to be a killer. I think you have to be smart.

[Tim Sebastian]

Does that mean eyes in the back of your head always looking to see who's going to get you, who's trying to pull one off, a fast one on you?

[Donald Trump]

Well, one of the things I say in the book, and I say very strongly, is you have to be paranoid. There is a certain advantage to having a certain degree of paranoia. You watch, you can be a little bit careful. You watch what's happening behind your back. And I think that's probably very true in business.

[Tim Sebastian]

You talk in your book about getting even. The importance of getting even is revenge. Sweet.

[Donald Trump]

I believe strongly in getting even. If somebody has hurt you, if somebody's gone out of their way to hurt you, I think that if you have the opportunity, you should certainly go out of your way to do a number on them. And I've had more criticism about that one statement in my book than any other statement. The clergy is called, the ministers, the priests, the rabbis. They've all said what a terrible thing to say. That's against our teachings. I just believe it. I believe in an eye for an eye.

[Tim Sebastian]

In the early 90s, you've faced the possibility of losing everything. In fact, on paper, you had lost pretty much everything.

[Donald Trump]

I had faced the possibility of losing everything. And it I went back to work, I focused. I focused my mental energies and all of my energies.

[Tim Sebastian]

You never thought of giving up?

[Donald Trump]

No, I think one of the reasons I really succeeded, and bigger than even in the 80s, is the fact that it's. It's a little word called perseverance. I didn't stop.

[Tim Sebastian]

Quite a long word, actually.

[Donald Trump]

It's a long word, come to think of it. But I didn't stop and I did persevere. I went against a lot of odds, and I came up with a phrase, Survive till 95. That was in the early 1990s, and it turned out to be right because the world changed, the economy changed, and there was a survival tactic till a certain year. And in 1995, things started changing. But I mean, it really started changing for me almost right at the beginning because I went back to work, focused my energies.

[Tim Sebastian]

How desperate were you at that time? Well, how depressed did you get?

[Donald Trump]

Well, to start off with, I really blame myself a little bit because I've always been able to pick markets. And I really wasn't focused toward the end of the 80s because I was having too good a time. I was enjoying my life too much. Things were going too well.

[Tim Sebastian]

You dropped your guard.

[Donald Trump]

I did drop my guard. And it's no different than you if you do 15 great interviews you know, you sort of. On the 16th, you can take it easy because, well, that happens in life. That's a human trait. And I did drop my guard. And what I did is I re put up my guard and re put up my defenses and my offenses much stronger than I ever did in the 80s and worked probably harder than I did in the 70s and 80s and actually became much more successful.

[Tim Sebastian]

You had to believe in your own abilities. Wasn't there a time when you thought, I really can't hack it. I should get out of this. I'm not suited to this.

[Donald Trump]

There were some pretty depressing times because I had owed billions and billions of dollars. 975 million or so was personally guaranteed. And that's a pretty deep hole. And when you're that deep in debt, you're mired in debt. And you're that deep in debt. I mean, that's a pretty rough situation to be in.

[Tim Sebastian]

And the vultures are circling around you.

[Donald Trump]

Well, you had plenty of vultures, you had plenty of bad people circling and some good people that frankly wanted to get paid. But it was just. It was hunker down time, as they say in Georgia. And I did do that.

[Tim Sebastian]

Did you learn some lessons about the people who were your friends and the people who weren't your friends?

[Donald Trump]

I wrote once they were painful. And I wrote once that I would love to sort of have a bad period financially just to see who my friends would be and who my enemies would be. Now never write it again because it's not fun.

[Narrator/Host]

In 2001, Tim Sebastian interviewed Mira Markovic in Belgrade as her husband, former Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic, awaited trial for war crimes in the Hague.

[Tim Sebastian]

Slobodan Milosevic is in the Hague facing the most serious charge on the planet. Genocide. Here in Belgrade, his wife protests his innocence. Who does she think was responsible for the thousands of forced deportations and the mass murders? And does she expect her husband one day to come home?

[Mira Markovic]

The bloodshed in the Balkans in the former Yugoslavia was the result of the policy pursued in the west with the intention.

[Tim Sebastian]

The west is responsible for all the bodies. Mrs. Malcolm.

[Mira Markovic]

Please. Please. I am now answering your question. Do not interrupt me. The bloodshed in the Balkans resulted from the policy conducted from outside Yugoslavia with the intent to destroy Yugoslavia, to obliterate it. The policy was successful and yielded results. Yugoslavia ceased to exist. It disappeared in a bloodbath.

[Tim Sebastian]

Mrs. Markovich, don't you accept any responsibility?

[Mira Markovic]

The bloodshed you mentioned in former Yugoslavia and in present Yugoslavia is the result of a policy conducted Towards Yugoslavia from outside Yugoslavia. Our responsibility for that bloodshed is minor. The responsibility must be borne by those outside Yugoslavia who conceived and financed this bloodshed, who carried it out using us.

[Tim Sebastian]

So the west is responsible for the mass graves. The west is responsible for the places of internment and torture. The west is responsible for the rape. The west is responsible for the forced deportations of tens of thousands of people across the Balkans. People are not going to believe you, Mrs. Milosevic. Yes, people are not going to believe you. They've seen the pictures. They've seen the forced deportation of people for the first time since the second world war. Didn't those pictures touch you as a human being? Did they touch you?

[Mira Markovic]

As far as the mass graves are concerned, those that are fresh, the more recent ones, those from the recent period, from the last two, three years, the people who caused the war are responsible. All pertains to war graves. Rapes, death, suffering, hunger is all part of war. As for the new graves they are looking for, they are 30, 50, 100 years old, dating back to different times and different wars. You're behaving like a haughty policeman. I agreed to talk to you believing you wanted to hear the other side.

[Tim Sebastian]

I'm asking questions that are of interest to the public.

[Mira Markovic]

You are a very unpleasant man. No one has ever talked to me in such a rough way. It is so unchivalrous. Had I known you talk to me like this, I'd not have accepted. Not because I don't have to answer your questions. I have them. The one who tells the truth is always superior. I am superior to you because I am telling the truth. And you can never talk over me because you are an exponent of hate against my people and my husband. But it is not nice of you to talk to me so brutally. It is simply not chivalrous, not gentlemanly.

[Narrator/Host]

In 1998, my late colleague, George Aligaiyah spoke to South Africa's president, Nelson Mandela.

[George Alagiah]

You were put away for 27 years, 27 of the best years of your life. What is the cost of that incarceration to Nelson Mandela, the man I would like to think.

[Nelson Mandela]

Not in terms of costs. I would like to think in terms of the advantages which I gained from being from serving a long jail center. The ability to sit down and to think about your past, the present and the future. The ability to be able to see yourself in action in the past and the mistakes and weaknesses which you committed and witnesses which emerged in the course of your work as you look back. And the excitement of preparing for the Future. And I found these very rewarding.

[George Alagiah]

But if I may say so, sir. I mean, I'm a married man. The thought that I am not able. The thought that I would not be able to provide care, tenderness to the people I loved. Would hurt me enormously. It must have been terrible for you for 27 years.

[Nelson Mandela]

Oh, yes, I have mentioned this. That this was one of the things that worried me a great deal. That my wife was without security, Undergoing humiliation, persecution by the regime. My children, also subjected to such persecution. They go to a school, and the police are immediately there. And they say, look, this is an African child. He has no right to be in a colored school. And my children are expelled.

[George Alagiah]

Now, I've watched you these last three years in South Africa. The way you build bridges, the way you go. And you're able to see PW Bother. You're able to see the wife of Pervut. Who did so much to invent apartheid. But there is one man with whom I don't see this chemistry. With FW De Klerk. You don't seem to like him.

[Nelson Mandela]

No, that is not a correct position. I address a meeting of the Afrikaans Handel's Institute. These are Africana businessmen. He was then criticized by one of them. I got up and I said, whatever Criticism I mean. Mr. De Klerk has made a lot of mistakes. Some of them fundamental, as all of us have done. But you must never forget the role that he played in this country. To ensure that he mobilizes his own lobby. To join the process of transformation. Of peaceful transformation. Had it not been for the contribution that he made. The process of transformation in this country. Would have been all the more difficult. Whether I like him or not. The point is, I must acknowledge what he has achieved, the contribution that he has made. And I do so with all humility.

[Narrator/Host]

In 1999, Tim Sebastian sat down with the singer and activist Nina Simone.

[Tim Sebastian]

Tell me about music as a political weapon, which you've used it as.

[Nina Simone]

Oh, now, that's a hard one. As a political weapon. It has helped me for 30 years. Defend the rights of American blacks and Third World people all over the world. To defend them with protest songs. And it helps to change the world.

[Tim Sebastian]

When you get up on the stage and you sing, what's in your mind? Just the singing?

[Nina Simone]

No, to move the audience. To make them conscious of what has been done to my people around the world.

[Tim Sebastian]

So you sing from anger?

[Nina Simone]

No, I sing from intelligence. I sing from letting them know that I know who they are and what they have done to my people. Around the world. That's not anger. Anger has its place. Anger has fire, and fire moves things. But I think from intelligence. I don't want them to think that I don't know who they are.

[Tim Sebastian]

Darling, when you Left America in 1972, you. You left because you couldn't stand just that.

[Nina Simone]

Racism.

[Tim Sebastian]

You couldn't stand it any longer.

[Nina Simone]

I couldn't stand it. Walking down the street, crossing the street. You get racism crossing the street. It's in the very fabric of American society.

[Tim Sebastian]

You can't stand to go to America?

[Nina Simone]

No, I can't. I went this year for the first time and I. I worked at Newark, New Stadium and Seattle. And they were so happy and surprised to see me because they hadn't seen me in seven years.

[Tim Sebastian]

But you didn't feel well treated this time, yes.

[Nina Simone]

This time they were more than happy to see me. They hadn't seen me so long they thought I was dead.

[Tim Sebastian]

But you wouldn't go back and live there?

[Nina Simone]

No way.

[Tim Sebastian]

Before I let you go, one question. There is a report that at a business meeting once, you pulled out a knife.

[Nina Simone]

I sure damn did.

[Tim Sebastian]

Did you?

[Nina Simone]

Yes, I did.

[Tim Sebastian]

Why?

[Nina Simone]

Because.

[Nelson Mandela]

Oh, dear.

[Nina Simone]

Because I was a record company.

[Tim Sebastian]

You were about to say something.

[Nina Simone]

I can't say. I was a record company that stole my albums and didn't pay me. And they came to Switzerland and I said, where's my money? And they said, we're not going to give you any money. I said, oh, yes, you are. And I got a gun. It was a gun, it wasn't a knife. And I followed him to a restaurant and I tried to kill him. I missed him and I went back to America.

[Tim Sebastian]

You actually pulled the trigger?

[Nina Simone]

Yes, I did.

[Tim Sebastian]

And felt better for it.

[Robin Williams]

Oh, yes.

[Nina Simone]

Sorry I didn't get him.

[Tim Sebastian]

You also seem to have had a lot of problems with the music industry. Racketeers you've talked about, for God's sakes.

[Nina Simone]

They don't pay you. I still have 60 albums being pirated in England right now.

[Tim Sebastian]

Nobody's actually paying you for these?

[Nina Simone]

No. I have a great lawyer from San Francisco and he goes after as many pirates as he can, but he can't catch them all. They run the streets too fast. I've been pirated all over the world.

[Narrator/Host]

Tim Sebastian met the late, great actor and comedian Robin Williams in 1999.

[Tim Sebastian]

Robin Williams, a very warm welcome to the program.

[Robin Williams]

Thank you. A warm hand on my opening.

[Donald Trump]

Thank you.

[Tim Sebastian]

Stand up where your heart is versus San Francisco.

[Robin Williams]

Yeah, I have a great time doing Stand Up. It's where my whole Body is, I think, because it demands everything. Mind, heart, soul, body. You know, it's like prize fighting or like last night I was watching Andre Agassi playing tennis. It's. You know, ideally, it's this thing where it's. It's really alive. It really is important. And you could talk about extraordinary things, you know, and that helps.

[Tim Sebastian]

Gives you your edge, do you think?

[Robin Williams]

It just gives it. It fights fear. Whether that's an edge or not, I don't know. I mean, but it helps me just get back and, you know, put it all out there and. And stand behind it. Because there's no. There's no net. There's no end of it saying, it's a director, it's the project, it's a director. That or the script is not right. And then people go, no, it's. You smart boy. Hey, pretty furry boy. Make me dance. Make me dance. Come on, bring it out. Yo. Put it out, Rob, and put it out. I don't know. It's. It's that idea of just seeing what you can talk about, you know, and as we approach the millennium when your computer will suddenly go, yeah, too many zeros. Too many zeros. Yeah, three zeros. Three zeros. Good night. You've got mo. What. When did you get Jewish? It's that thing of, what can you do to talk about all these different things and the simple stuff, like life.

[Tim Sebastian]

How lonely was your childhood?

[Robin Williams]

I was an only child. It wasn't. It wasn't. I mean, you. You learn to play with yourself. Pardon the pun. But you have. You. You adapt the imagination. You find a way of getting through it. It wasn't awful. No. I had a. Actually kind of a wonderful time because of that. And then later on, you know, I. I learned that it was very interesting and how it formed who and what I am.

[Tim Sebastian]

You created a lot of characters, did you?

[Robin Williams]

Yeah, little things that didn't really surface till college, where all of a sudden I realized I had this mimicry, this ability to. Because I think I've been kind of listening and absorbing all that stuff. And then in college, I had a chance to release it.

[Tim Sebastian]

So who were you mimicking in those days?

[Robin Williams]

My grandmother, who I never met, who I'd always do her on the phone.

[Martha Gellhorn]

Sonny boy talking to you. I'm all right now, watching Elvis.

[Robin Williams]

And, you know, and I would be doing. She used to love to watch wrestling. So I would. Right now, Gorgeous George has a man in a hold. And I would talk to her. And I remember doing. And I would do her for my Mother and make my mother laugh because she would, you know, just, oh, that's so good. Now go to bed. But, you know, she, you know, it gave me. I think that was a start.

[Tim Sebastian]

Fame came too early for you, didn't it? That sounds like 25, 26.

[Robin Williams]

25, 26. I don't remember. It was actually fame was that good. They say if you live through the 60s, you can't really. And say you really remember, you're a liar. It came. I think it was a 25, 26. Yeah, there was. It was pretty wild.

[Tim Sebastian]

Didn't bring you much happiness in the beginning.

[Robin Williams]

There was moments of, you know, fun and joy in the. I'm not going to say I wouldn't have done it for five years or whatever, but what's finally sobered me up was the idea of having a child. And I wasn't having the child, my wife was having the child. You know, I was not passing the bowling ball, as they say, and I wanted to not miss that. So I sobered up and I did it without, you know, Betty Ford or, you know, aa. And people keep saying, you're a friend of Bill's. I'm like, Clinton, no friend of Bill's. You know, the other group, alcoholics, Unanimous. But I did it on my own because of one reason. My son and I thank God I did.

[Tim Sebastian]

Robin Williams. I wish you luck. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you.

[Robin Williams]

We thank you on behalf of all this. Will you sign the treaty now? Bring.

[Tim Sebastian]

No way.

[Narrator/Host]

In the first year of Hard Talk recordings, Tim Sebastian spoke to Martha Gellhorn, one of the first female war correspondents.

[Tim Sebastian]

In the 1930s, a bright, young, idealistic writer goes to Spain to cover the Civil war. More than 40 years later, she's covering the war in Bosnia. What is this fascination with human conflict and what has it done to her? Arthur Gellhorn, welcome to Hard Talk. Do you mind answering questions instead of asking them for a change?

[Martha Gellhorn]

Yes, I do mind. It's work for the unemployed, what I'm doing now.

[Tim Sebastian]

Let's go and do it. What is it about you and wars?

[Martha Gellhorn]

I don't start them after all. I just go to them. Well, actually, not anymore. But it isn't anything about me and wars. It's about the history of our time. That's what we had, war. And I cared very much about the outcome. I think probably this century will go down as a real shocker in history, because not only the number of wars, but the bitterness, the killing capacity of them, the people who suffered. And then the most modern thing about war is that now the worst person to be is a civilian. If you've got a chance, pick up a gun and join whatever group is wearing a uniform, you're much safer than civilians. And that, I think, started that started definitely in Spain, the war on the civilian, the helpless and unarmed population, and has gone on steadily ever since.

[Tim Sebastian]

When you look back on the wars that you've covered, do you think that we have learned any lessons from them century? Do you think that war reporters have helped us learn any lessons from war? Do you see this, just this terrible slaughter, genocide going on and on?

[Martha Gellhorn]

I think they are useful because if.

[Tim Sebastian]

It'S a strange word.

[Martha Gellhorn]

Yes, in the sense that if nobody told anybody, you know, we would assume if our own lives were okay, we'd just assume everything was all right. I think it's very important to remind people that these things are happening, that they are bad and that the more you show just what's happening, the more everybody can say whether they've been near a war or not. They can recognize that war is a perfectly terrible, cruel thing and it's hardest on the least privileged. It's always hardest on the poor, simply.

[Narrator/Host]

We hope you've enjoyed our dive deep into the Hard Talk archive. Thanks for listening.

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