Hind Kabawat, Syrian Minister: It's hard to be the only woman, I feel lonely

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Hind Kabawat, Syrian Minister: It's hard to be the only woman, I feel lonely"

Podcast: The Interview (BBC World Service)
Host: Lise Doucet
Guest: Hind Kabawat, Syrian Minister for Social Affairs and Labor
Date: January 30, 2026
Duration: ~25 minutes

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Overview

This episode features a candid interview with Hind Kabawat, Syria’s Minister for Social Affairs and Labor in the country’s first interim cabinet following the fall of the Assad regime. Kabawat discusses the monumental challenges facing her ministry in a country devastated by 14 years of war, the ongoing struggle for women’s representation at the highest levels of government, the immense responsibilities she carries for Syria’s most vulnerable, and her battle, both internal and political, to enact real change. The conversation is peppered with Hind’s humor, honesty, and determination, and concludes with the personal toll her role inflicts.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Role and Responsibilities in the New Syrian Government

• Scope of Her Ministry (03:36):
  • Social Affairs: Civil society, vulnerable groups (refugees, IDPs, widows, children, elderly, people with special needs – "27% are victims of war").
  • Labor: Job creation, economic recovery strategy, and prioritizing needs.

“There are 27% of special needs and are victims of war and my ministry is responsible for them.” — Hind Kabawat (03:58)

• Initial Acceptance of the Role (04:29):
  • Accepted quickly, driven by the desire to serve Syria, not by fear of difficulty.

“I didn’t think about how hard. I thought then how much I can give to my community and my country.” — Hind Kabawat (04:29)

2. Magnitude of the Post-War Challenge

• Conditions on the Ground (04:42, 05:34):
  • Country "left below zero" by the previous regime; lack of basic infrastructure; institutions destroyed.
  • Scarcity of resources—“not even laptops” in the ministry.

“It’s like a death clinic. Nothing left, institution has been destroyed, stolen. I don’t have even laptops in my ministry. My elevator wasn’t working. There is no light, nothing…” — Hind Kabawat (05:01)

• Funding as Central Obstacle (07:53):
  • Without funding, her ministry cannot provide essential support.
  • Reliance on international aid, which is not always forthcoming or is slow due to legal and transparency concerns.

"Funding for social affairs and labor...is very essential because it is also touching people's life.” — Hind Kabawat (07:54)

3. Rebuilding Society and Economy

• Vocational Training and Dignity (08:29):
  • Emphasizes vocational training and small cash grants for the most vulnerable, encouraging self-reliance amid extreme scarcity.

“Maybe we lost a lot, but we didn’t lose the power of the Syrian people, their dignity. And they love to work.” — Hind Kabawat (08:35)

• International Community’s Role (09:33–10:44):
  • Appreciation for ongoing humanitarian aid.
  • Stresses urgency for economic support to prevent renewed social strife or loss of the young population to emigration.

“If we don’t get the economic in place, business in place, jobs… we can have more social problems. Many young people can leave us now.” — Hind Kabawat (10:08)

• Barriers to International Assistance (10:44):
  • International donors cite lack of legal framework and transparency; Kabawat insists reform takes time after total collapse.

“Of course they’re not right, because we are trying our best… It’s only one year now we get a country is being completely destroyed. It’s not like Switzerland.” — Hind Kabawat (10:59)

4. Trust and Reconciliation

• Mistrust After Years of War (11:34):
  • Rebuilding trust both between people and government, and among citizens themselves; national unity has been shattered.

“There is mistrust. Don’t forget we have the mistrust before. Nobody trusts the government. It’s taking time for People to say, we trust you. And it’s not trust between government and people. It’s also between people to people.” — Hind Kabawat (11:48)

5. Gender Dynamics and Representation

• Isolation as Sole Female Minister (13:52):
  • Admits to feeling lonely as the only woman at the top table, admires other countries with multiple women ministers.
  • Relies on male colleagues’ support, but craves female solidarity.

“It’s hard to be the only woman because for me, I feel lonely sometimes... I envy them. Reality.” — Hind Kabawat (13:52)

• Not a Token Appointment (15:51):
  • Asserts her authority, independence, and refusal to be a ‘window dressing’.
  • Full autonomy over her ministry and appointments was a precondition for her acceptance.

“I am not a window dressing. Nobody can dominate a woman and nobody can dominate me.” — Hind Kabawat (16:19)

• Push for Greater Female Participation (18:52–19:46):
  • Urges President to appoint women; calls lack of women in cabinet a mistake.
  • “I lead by example,” focusing on empowering women within her own portfolio.

“One of my priority in my strategy is empowering women.” — Hind Kabawat (19:09)

• On Tokenism and Legitimacy (22:28):
  • She rejects the narrative of being a token woman or minority, framing her role as a citizen’s duty, not an identity marker.

“I don’t feel myself a Christian or woman. When I do my job, I feel like I’m a citizen of Syria. I have a duty to help and serve.” — Hind Kabawat (22:30)

6. Politics of Inclusion and Realpolitik

• Distribution of Power (20:03–20:37):
  • Rejects notion that only former fighters deserve positions; insists civil society and women played critical roles in regime change.

“No, I don’t accept this because they are not the only one. They helped him because of the women and civil societies helped him too.” — Hind Kabawat (20:04)

• Inclusivity Essential for Stability (20:38):
  • Warns the government cannot survive without representing Syria’s full societal diversity.

“You cannot have one color and one side. You have to bring everybody at the table.” — Hind Kabawat (20:43)

7. Religion, Identity, and Social Change

• On Growing Islamization (21:15):
  • Dismisses concerns about creeping religious conservatism as exaggerated; champions secular citizenship while respecting religious freedom.

“It’s not happening. It’s not going to happen. Because the Syrian people, they won’t allow this.” — Hind Kabawat (21:15)

8. Personal Challenges and Lessons Learned

• Bureaucracy and Adaptation (23:14):
  • Adjustment from private sector’s speed to government bureaucracy; learning to balance and blend two cultures and listen to all perspectives.

“First lesson is to adjust my speed with the bureaucracy of the ministry. And second, you have to listen to everybody because you feel like it’s like a puzzle.” — Hind Kabawat (23:20)

• Emotional Toll (24:26):
  • The suffering she witnesses often moves her to tears, but she views this as a sign of humanity, not weakness.

“Tears doesn’t mean that you’re weak. Tears show that you’re a human. I see the suffering of the people post conflict… Sometime I say, why did I do this? But in the end I say, if I don’t serve them now, I will have more tears later.” — Hind Kabawat (24:26)

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Timestamps for Notable Segments

• [03:36] — Hind’s Ministry: structure and priorities
• [04:29] — Motivation to accept the ministerial role
• [05:01] — The devastation inherited from the previous regime
• [07:53] — Funding as the intractable obstacle
• [08:29] — Focus on dignity and vocational training
• [11:34] — Challenge of rebuilding trust
• [13:52] — Loneliness as the only woman in power
• [16:19] — Asserting independence; refusal to be a token
• [18:52] — Advocacy for more women in government
• [21:15] — On religion and freedom in Syria
• [23:14] — Lessons learned in bureaucracy and adaptation
• [24:26] — Human cost and emotional burden

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Memorable Quotes

• “It’s like a death clinic. Nothing left, institution has been destroyed, stolen.” — Hind Kabawat (05:01)
• “Maybe we lost a lot, but we didn’t lose the power of the Syrian people, their dignity.” — Hind Kabawat (08:35)
• “I feel lonely sometimes because you like to have another woman colleague to talk. I envy [Qatari ministers]; reality.” — Hind Kabawat (13:52)
• “I am not a window dressing. Nobody can dominate a woman and nobody can dominate me.” — Hind Kabawat (16:19)
• “You cannot have one color and one side. You have to bring everybody at the table.” — Hind Kabawat (20:43)
• “Tears doesn’t mean that you’re weak. Tears show that you’re a human.” — Hind Kabawat (24:26)
• “The minute I start feeling like I am a minority or I’m a woman, I will lose my legitimacy here.” — Hind Kabawat (22:30)

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Conclusion

Hind Kabawat’s interview illuminates the immense personal and professional challenges of post-war reconstruction in Syria. Her resilience, candor, and principled commitment to both rebuilding social trust and empowering women mark her as an impactful leader in an uncertain time. The episode offers a rare firsthand glimpse into the inner workings—and persistent hardships—of a country attempting to heal and redefine itself.

Transcript

[Helena Merriman]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau. Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Lise Doucet]

Hello, I'm lise Doucet, the BBC's chief international correspondent, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention.

[Interviewer]

We have never seen a people so united.

[Helena Merriman]

Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey.

[Interviewer]

Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not.

[Hind Kabawat]

We're more popular than populism.

[Lise Doucet]

For this interview, I met Hind Kabawat, the Minister for Social affairs and labor in Syria's first interim cabinet, a government dominated by the close aides and former fighters linked to Syria's new president, Ahmed Al Shara. Born in India and raised between the Middle east and Europe, Hind Kabawat's life has been shaped by serious strife. She studied economics in Damascus, law in Beirut, before continuing her education in Canada and and the United States. During the long years of Syria's brutal war, Hind played a leading role in Syria's exiled opposition. She established her own organization, helping Syrian women develop skills in leadership and peace building. After the sudden fall of the Assad regime in December 2024, ending decades of dictatorship, she returned home to play a part in building the the new Syria. Hind speaks to me about the challenges of moving a nation from war to peace, about building trust and what it's like being the only woman at the top table.

[Hind Kabawat]

The president is treating us all equal. I never Seen any discrimination between me and others. So whatever your background is, extreme radicals or extreme seculars. I always think about how we share values together. We want to build a state. We have to help the people of Syria. This is what I think. I don't want to think about anything else. So whoever you are, wherever you come from, wherever our ideology is so different, I don't care.

[Lise Doucet]

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Hind Kabawat.

[Hind Kabawat]

I have two ministries. First one is the social affair which is responsible for all the civil society in Syria, responsible for the all laws. We're responsible for the vulnerable community which will include refugees, IDPs, street children, widows. We have also the elderly people. It's a very big portfolio when it comes to social affairs and special needs. There are 27% of special needs and are victims of war and my ministry is responsible for them. This is the first one. The second is about jobs. Now we plan our strategy and we identified priorities for us and we're working on those priorities.

[Interviewer]

When you were offered the job, did you hesitate for a second knowing how hard it would be?

[Hind Kabawat]

I didn't think about how hard. I thought then how much I can give to my community and my country. Took me a few minutes to accept.

[Interviewer]

And has it been harder than you thought?

[Hind Kabawat]

Every day it's harder. It is difficult because you're responsible for 90% of the Syrian people. Because we have now almost poverty in Syria, people are living under 90% of the poverty level. This is very difficult. And make it more difficult post conflict after conflict of 14 years and then plus its transitions, it's very hard. And don't forget the former regime left Syria below zero. It's like a death clinic. Nothing left, institution has been destroyed, stolen. I don't have even laptops in my ministry. My elevator wasn't working. There is no light, nothing and to do list every day it's increasing, not decreasing.

[Interviewer]

Why is it getting harder?

[Hind Kabawat]

Because don't forget we can't do anything without funding. And before when I took the position, sanction was still there. So I was like thinking, oh my God, what will happen if we don't lift the sanction? So it's been one of our priority, my government priority to lift the sanction with the help of the Syrian American communities and other community. It's been the challenge for us. And now after lifting the sanction I think it's going to get better. It was harder because people they want to see result. It has been hard to tell them we don't have this magic Stick. We have to rebuild from the beginning. It's not only you have to rebuild, but also people are hurt. It's been painful for them. They've been living 14 years and dictator, regime, they cannot even talk. And the other, they've been living under the tent, refugee camps, IDP camps, and also attacks and killing every day. So it's not only building the offices, it's also. You have to work on the people too.

[Interviewer]

Do you fear that people's patience will run out?

[Hind Kabawat]

Of course. You put yourself into their shoes. They waited for this revolution to win for years. 14 years. And they felt like the day we have the victory, they can go back home. They're all coming back. And their old villages are like Marat Al Naman. If you see Marit and Amman, it's like Hiroshima. This is a city who's destroyed completely. How come this person will go back to his home if his village is completely destroyed? He really needs a house. This building, this. They cost billions of billions of dollars. And we don't have the money. And if we don't have united effort from the international community to help, at least building some houses for those people. Because this is hard for them. I feel their pain. They're sitting in a tent for a year waiting for them to have a solution. And we don't have the money to build. It will cost billions and we don't have it.

[Interviewer]

What is the biggest obstacle to you succeeding in your ministry?

[Hind Kabawat]

Funding. The funding for social affairs and labor. It's very essential because it is also touching people's life. Like when women tell me, I lost my three children, I don't have a house, I don't have a job. What can I tell her? All what I can tell her. Let's try to give you some skills, some vocation training so you can start working. And this is what you are trying to do.

[Interviewer]

This seems to be your message wherever you go. You tell them you can't depend on the government or international aid. You have to do it yourself. And they look at you and they say, we have nothing. How can we depend on ourselves?

[Hind Kabawat]

At least vocational training. You know what? Maybe we lost a lot, but we didn't lose the power of the Syrian people, their dignity. And they love to work. We don't have the government billion dollars to give them, but we can give them tools. The vocation training is shortcut. At least they can start having income. Also we have another plan to give cash. Cash for the most vulnerable Syrian people. And we identify like 5 million who are women without husband. They have children, they have special needs. We identify them. If we give them little bit cash, at least they can survive until we do for them the vocation training and they can start. So once we do this, I think we will be much better because we cannot rely on bringing lots of billion to build homes, but we can at least teach them how to start building. And step by step, when you meet.

[Interviewer]

Members of the international community, when you travel abroad and you say this, what do they tell you?

[Hind Kabawat]

We cannot ignore how grateful we are for the international community. They've been helping us for the last 14 years. Today we have a good documentation for the Assad crimes because of their support to our civil society organization. So we have documentation so we don't have to wait for transitional justice to happen after five, six years from now until we document all the crimes. The international community, they've been helping us humanitarian aid in the north, they've been great support.

[Interviewer]

You warned them that time is running out.

[Hind Kabawat]

Reality is if we don't get the economic in place, business in place, jobs for the people, better future, we have problems, we can have more social problems. Many young people can leave us now, they can just start leaving the country. We get now 1 million 700 refugees coming back to Syria. But if we don't allow these people to start working and being creative in making great ideas to survive and let other community, we will be in trouble. We don't want them to leave because we need them.

[Interviewer]

But what members of the international community say is the government is too slow, that you're not moving quickly enough on establishing a new legal framework on transparency. And until the Syrians act, we're not going to give you money. Are they right?

[Hind Kabawat]

Of course they're not right, because we are trying our best. Listen, it's only one year now we get a country is being completely destroyed. It's not like we just transition to the country like Switzerland. We have already system in place, we have corruption, we don't have the proper law. Our law is very old. We just now we're getting the parliament and we're just now working on all the laws to renew and to adapt to the new country. So it's taking time. We have people who are being hurt. We have to work on. When we have little bit of progress, we can see some of the spoilers starting attention problems, sectarian problems. So we have political challenges, we have people who are psychological problems. There is mistrust. Don't forget we have the mistrust before. Nobody trusts the government. It's taking time for People to say, we trust you. And it's not trust between government and people. It's also between people to people. There is no trust. They've been 14 years divided, so they need time.

[Lise Doucet]

You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

[Helena Merriman]

If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The history Bureau. Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcast.

[Lise Doucet]

Syria's Minister for Social affairs and Labor, Hind Kabawat has an impossible juggling act. She has to help the most vulnerable. Orphans, widows, the unemployed, the homeless. As she says, that's 90% of Syrians traveling with her. We saw how everywhere she goes, she brings her trademark humor, trying to ease any tension, build trust, even hope. But she knows what Syrians really need now is a place to call home. A country at peace. But let's return to my conversation with Hind Kabawat.

[Interviewer]

How hard is it for you as the only woman in the government? The government is composed of many of the former fighters, predominantly from President Al Shara's group. Hayat Rosham. How hard is it for you to work in that world?

[Hind Kabawat]

First of all, it's hard to be the only woman because for me, I feel lonely sometimes because you like to have another woman colleague to talk. And I can see, when I go to Qatar, I see three ministers, like sisters, working together. I envy them. Reality. I envy them because they're great. Three sisters. I feel lonely regarding my effective too.

[Interviewer]

Does it mean you are less effective at your work?

[Hind Kabawat]

Actually, no. Because I got many male colleagues help help me and support me. They always feel like we're partners and we're partners at work. So no, I don't feel lonely at work with my other colleagues.

[Interviewer]

But are there also colleagues who some of them come from very, very conservative backgrounds, who don't talk about, don't believe.

[Lise Doucet]

In women's empowerment, in fact may believe the opposite.

[Interviewer]

Does that restrict you?

[Hind Kabawat]

Don't restrict me. Because for me, I don't work for them.

[Interviewer]

But you're part of the same government. You're fighting for resources.

[Hind Kabawat]

Fighting for resources. But my resources are so different than their resources. My resources for the people. And I fight for the people of my ministry, the vulnerable people. And the president is treating us all equal. I never seen any discrimination between me and others. So whatever your background is, extreme radicals or extreme seculars. I always think about how we share values together. We want to build a state. We have to help the people of Syria. This is what I think. I don't want to think about anything else. I want just to focus on these things. So whoever you are, wherever you come from, and whatever our ideology is so different, I don't care.

[Interviewer]

But you have to care. If it means that, it means that they're just okay.

[Hind Kabawat]

No, no, no.

[Interviewer]

We'll put one woman there. We'll keep the international community happy and.

[Lise Doucet]

And we'll get on with army.

[Hind Kabawat]

No, it doesn't.

[Interviewer]

Taking the main jobs doesn't work with me. They can, but they do dominate the main ministries. And in fact the deputy ministers are from that.

[Hind Kabawat]

My deputy are not from the part and we are independent. And I can tell you that I have full authorities in my ministry. It's some other. I don't. You know what it is not one size fit all. I am have the full authority. If I don't have full authority to make my own decision, you don't see me here. And if you come next year, you won't see me. Because this was one my condition when I took the decision. I say I need to have full authority. I can appoint my own deputy and I have the freedom to do my own strategy, my own plan, my own budget. I'm not a window dressing. Hello. I am not a window dressing. Nobody can dominate a woman and nobody can dominate me. And if I see any domination, anybody can force me or ignore my work or anything. Very simple, very simple. I have thick skin and I learned to be thick skinned in my previous job. In my previous responsibilities I can be thick skin. But one it comes to taking some of my authorities. I don't have to be in a place I cannot be the boss. As simple as this.

[Interviewer]

Tell us about your relationship with the president. Because it goes back many, many years when he was a commander in Idlib. You were a leading person in the opposition in working in the aid community. Tell us about your relationship.

[Hind Kabawat]

I don't know Hamilton personally. I never met him personally. First time I met him personally in the national dialogue, when they appointed me to be part of the national dialogue. I work in Idlib in very specific things. Education and women empowerment. Then I work also with the churches in Idlib, with the priests and others. So also we can do some of the program together. I Know that in the last few years he changed. He was really having a great conversation with the priest in Eglip, which was a very good. This is the only things I know about him.

[Interviewer]

And your working relationship with him now as one of his ministers, how would you describe it?

[Hind Kabawat]

Respect. Treat me like an older sister since I'm older. And I remember one day he told me, somebody asked me did I appointed him because she's Christian. I told him no. I appointed her because she had the skills and leadership knowledge. He listened to me. And we have always an open conversation based on respect and always very impressed by his relation with his wife. And he's encouraged her for education to be more seen in international platform. And he's a very good support for his wife for all of us.

[Interviewer]

You're very public about saying that there has to be more women in the government. When you put that to the President, what does he say?

[Hind Kabawat]

He said of course, yeah, for me, I appointed now the director in Idlib and we have more coming. Any seats empty? I will put women and they are okay. You know what? I don't want to look other ministries I lead by example. One of my priority in my strategy is empowering women.

[Interviewer]

But you have said that not including more women at that cabinet level was one of the biggest mistakes of the.

[Lise Doucet]

First year in power.

[Hind Kabawat]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you say that to the President?

[Hind Kabawat]

Of course. The first day we were there, I told him why there is no more women.

[Interviewer]

What does he say?

[Hind Kabawat]

He said it's coming, we will, we are transitioning. They might change us after one year now because we're there temporary. So I hope that next year when they change, they will bring five, six women because they are very qualified, not because of women.

[Interviewer]

But do you understand that in this post war politics the President also needs to honor the loyalties of those who fought with him, help to bring down Assad. So he has to give all of those men positions. Does part of you accept that that's.

[Lise Doucet]

The way it has to be?

[Hind Kabawat]

No, I don't accept this because they are not the only one. They helped him because of the women and civil societies helped him too. We cannot say that only the military helped to free city.

[Interviewer]

They want jobs and I mean that's what we're seeing is that in his first appointments he had to give jobs to the four, even to foreign fighters to reward them.

[Lise Doucet]

That's the real politic.

[Hind Kabawat]

Okay, but it's fine. Finish now. Now let's have technocrat, let's have more people who are more working in Syria now.

[Interviewer]

And you say that to him.

[Hind Kabawat]

I always say we have to include everybody. If he's not going to be inclusive and bring many people together in the government to be more effective. We can't survive in Syria. It's a mosaic country. You cannot have one color and one side. You have to bring everybody at the table.

[Interviewer]

Some women express concern to us about growing Islamization. More women putting on the headscarves in the Umayyad Mosque. There's now a barrier between the women and the men for the first time in history. Do you worry that little by little this is happening?

[Hind Kabawat]

It's not happening. It's not happening. It's not going to happen. Because the Syrian people, they won't allow this. Because we want to have a freedom of religion, freedom of express our religion. I can tell you, many of my friends, they have veil and even some of them, they have niqab. But doesn't mean that they don't have open heart and brain and everything. Even the Christians, in the time of poverty and everything, people, they get back to their tribes and feel lonely and they start feeling like we and them. But today, if we open for economic and more education, especially children education, tell them that citizenship are more important. Go practice your religion. It's good to have your Muslim or Christian identity. But don't forget your biggest identity is Syria.

[Interviewer]

So those who fear that the government is not moving in the right direction say that Hind Kabawat being in this.

[Lise Doucet]

Government gives it legitimacy.

[Interviewer]

You don't feel that Hind Kabawat is the token woman, token minority in the government?

[Hind Kabawat]

No, I don't. And I don't accept this act all act all because, you know, I don't feel myself a Christian or woman. When I do my job, I feel like I'm a citizen of Syria. I have a duty to help and serve. The minute I start feeling like I am a minority or I'm a woman, I will lose my legitimacy here. So legitimacy is that you are a person, you are a citizen, your work is to help and serve. Token or anything else. I don't agree with this. No, I never feel like this.

[Interviewer]

Is there one lesson that you've learned in your first year as a minister?

[Hind Kabawat]

So many lessons I learned. This is the first time I work with the government because I come from the private sector and the civil society. The work I do there, it's completely different here. There is a bureaucracy, there is lots of layers and lots of papers. So I learned that I have to adjust because I'm like, I'm an add, you know, I'M fast, fast, fast, and it is slow. So I have to slow and teach others to speed. So first lesson is to adjust my speed with the bureaucracy of the ministry. And second, you have to listen to everybody because you feel like it's like a puzzle. Everyone is right in their own and you put yourself into their shoes. It's the everyday challenge, how to put the two cultures together. Private sector, civil society with the government bureaucracy. So this is first lesson I learned.

[Interviewer]

And finally, is there one moment in this last year where it was one of the toughest moments that you came home, you thought, I just can't do it, brought you to tears.

[Hind Kabawat]

I have tears sometimes. Tears doesn't mean that you're weak. Tears show that you're a human. I see the suffering of the people post conflict. I see the suffering of the women who lost their children, and I feel responsible for their pain. Sometime I say, why did I do this? But in the end I say, if I don't serve them now, I will have more tears later. So you cry a little bit. I wake up in the morning, I say, khalas, another day go back. So tears at home, feeling that sometimes I don't have the resource to help everybody. That the only time I feel like, why did I do this? Yeah.

[Lise Doucet]

Thank you for listening to the interview. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the President of Colombia, Gustavo Petro Noura Erakat, the Palestinian American human rights lawyer and Mexican actor Diego Calva. Until the next time. Goodbye for now.

[Helena Merriman]

If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.