Podcast Summary:

The Interview (BBC World Service)
Episode: Jacinda Ardern: Why World Leaders Need Empathy
Date: December 15, 2025
Host: Kylie Pentelo
Guest: Jacinda Ardern, former Prime Minister of New Zealand

Overview: Main Theme & Purpose

This episode features a candid conversation with Jacinda Ardern, former Prime Minister of New Zealand, renowned globally for her empathetic and decisive leadership style. The discussion centers on the role of empathy in political leadership, Ardern's personal and political journey—including her historic navigation of the Christchurch terrorist attack, the COVID-19 pandemic, her experience as a young and pregnant Prime Minister, and her ongoing commitment to modeling compassionate leadership in a polarized world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Political Career and Unexpected Rise to Leadership

• Unexpected Ascension:

  • Ardern describes her unexpected promotion from backbench MP to party leader just months before the 2017 election ([04:17]-[05:10]).
  • “It was not a job I sought... But that's very different from a scenario where you suddenly find yourself in that position and know that it is your responsibility to step up to the plate and lead regardless.” – Jacinda Ardern (04:32)

• Pregnancy and Leadership:

  • Ardern learned she was pregnant days before being confirmed as Prime Minister, a surprise that prompted internal reflection but did not deter her sense of responsibility ([05:13]-[05:48]).
  • She acknowledges an initial “selfish thought” about her pregnancy versus her political trajectory, but dismissed it due to her deep commitment to her political agenda.

Responding to Crisis: Christchurch Attack

• Empathy and Decisiveness Under Pressure:
  • Discusses the balance between showing humanity and making swift, clear decisions amid national trauma ([06:29]-[07:43]).
  • “No one asks you to be inhuman. In fact, they want you to bring your humanity and those values into your leadership. But they also just want clarity, decisiveness, action. And there is a place for both in leadership.” – Jacinda Ardern (07:21)

The Value of Empathy in a Polarized World

• Strongman Politics vs. Compassionate Leadership:
  • Ardern counters the argument that voters only want “strongman” leaders, citing data showing public dissatisfaction and a desire for compassionate, ethical qualities in politicians ([07:54]-[09:15]).
  • “I'd also like to think they want the same values they teach their kids. Curiosity, compassion. And all of those things can be held in a singular way in leadership as well.” – Jacinda Ardern (08:53)

Imposter Syndrome, Vulnerability, and Leadership

• Personal Struggles:

  • Ardern recalls her anxieties and “worrying” nature, and how Trevor Mallard's advice helped her see empathy as a strength rather than a weakness ([09:23]-[10:52]).
  • “Don't toughen up, don't try and build thick skin because if you do that you'll lose your empathy... I just needed to carry them both [strength and vulnerability].” – Jacinda Ardern (10:29)

• On Humility:

  • Discusses the benefits of humility and preparation over projecting unwarranted confidence, especially in women leaders ([11:03]-[12:08]).
  • “Why in leadership would we want to enforce the idea that we should only have people who... lack the humility to seek the advice of others?” – Jacinda Ardern (11:25)

Upbringing and Moral Compass

• Faith and Values:
  • Raised Mormon, Ardern left the church over its stance on LGBTQI rights, yet credits her religious upbringing for instilling a sense of service and respect for faith ([12:08]-[13:23]).
  • “My sense of fairness and justice and equality meant that I left, but with no ill will... a lot of it having shaped who I was as a person.” – Jacinda Ardern (12:59)

Motherhood in Office

• Navigating Scrutiny and Joy:
  • Ardern describes hiding her pregnancy in her early months as Prime Minister out of concern for public perception and her own uncertainty ([13:33]-[14:36]).
  • Her public announcement was met with overwhelming positivity and support ([14:39]-[15:49]).
  • “We made the announcement on Instagram, and the overwhelming response was just one of joy... one of the reasons Niamh's middle name is Te Aroha, which just means the love in Māori.” – Jacinda Ardern (15:15)

Documentary and the Need to "Rehumanize" Leadership

• Behind-the-Scenes & Authenticity:
  • Ardern’s husband, Clarke, documented many of her personal and professional moments, which form the basis of her documentary “Simply Prime Minister” ([17:10]-[18:46]).
  • “If we are indeed human, and we are, you should still have an expectation that you bring the values as a human that you expect... you could be human and you could also be kind and decisive and a mother imperfectly, but still, I think, do a reasonable job.” – Jacinda Ardern (18:18)

COVID-19 Leadership and Its Legacy

• Reflections on Strict Lockdowns:
  • Ardern stands by her government's “do more” approach during the pandemic, even as later inquiry highlights trade-offs ([18:46]-[19:43]).
  • “If you offered me the choice of the critique being you did too little or you did too much... I'd rather be accused of doing too much because that was always in aid of saving people's lives.” – Jacinda Ardern (19:27)

Online Abuse and Women in Politics

• Enduring Threats and Relocation:
  • Ardern addresses the unprecedented levels of online abuse faced during the pandemic, and explains her time in the USA and UK as driven by new opportunities, not as an escape ([19:43]-[21:06]).
  • She calls for better solutions so women aren’t deterred from entering politics, emphasizing her overall positive outlook despite hardships.

Stepping Down and Political Legacy

• Decision to Resign:
  • Ardern cites lack of “enough in the tank” and explains that her decision was not about polling numbers, but a desire to exit before becoming ineffective ([21:06]-[22:59]).
  • “I could have kept going, could have completed that term, but did I have another three years in me when the last five had felt like ten?... I just felt them waning. That was a big part of the decision.” – Jacinda Ardern (21:52)
  • Proud of government’s progressive changes: increased parental leave, child poverty reduction, benefit increases, abortion and drug reform, indigenous rights.

Future Plans: Shaping Change Out of Power

• On Affecting Change Beyond Politics:
  • Ardern rejects rumors of United Nations ambitions ([22:59]-[23:09]).
  • Emphasizes her new role—supporting future world leaders, encouraging moral leadership, and reiterating that civil society, not just politicians, can shape outcomes ([23:19]-[24:40]).
  • “Politicians set the rules of the game... but they are not the only players on the field... my goal... is to reinforce that those values that got them into politics are values worth holding onto.” – Jacinda Ardern (23:46)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If we are indeed human, and we are, you should still have an expectation that you bring the values as a human that you expect... you could be human and you could also be kind and decisive and a mother imperfectly, but still, I think, do a reasonable job.” – Jacinda Ardern (18:18)
• “No one asks you to be inhuman... But they also just want clarity, decisiveness, action. And there is a place for both in leadership.” – Jacinda Ardern (07:21)
• “Don't toughen up... because if you do that, you'll lose your empathy.” – Jacinda Ardern quoting Trevor Mallard (10:29)
• “If you offered me the choice of the critique being you did too little or you did too much... I'd rather be accused of doing too much because that was always in aid of saving people's lives.” – Jacinda Ardern (19:27)
• “[Voters] want strength, decisiveness, but I'd also like to think they want the same values they teach their kids. Curiosity, compassion. And all of those things can be held in a singular way in leadership as well.” – Jacinda Ardern (08:53)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:32 | Rehumanizing leadership and values | | 04:17 | Ardern's unexpected rise to party leader and Prime Minister | | 05:13 | Discovery of pregnancy and reflections on its impact | | 06:29 | Responding to Christchurch attack: balancing empathy & action | | 07:54 | Empathy and kindness in today's political climate | | 09:23 | Imposter syndrome and empathy as political strengths | | 11:03 | Humility in leadership | | 12:08 | Upbringing, leaving Mormon faith and reasons why | | 13:33 | Balancing motherhood with Prime Ministerial duties | | 15:15 | Public response to pregnancy announcement | | 17:10 | Documentary insights and personal footage | | 18:46 | COVID-19 response, balancing risks and critiques | | 19:43 | Online abuse, moving abroad, and impact on women in politics | | 21:06 | Decision to resign and legacy of progressive reforms | | 22:59 | United Nations rumors dispelled | | 23:19 | Affecting change post-politics, supporting future leaders |

Tone

Candid, warm, and reflective, Ardern offers frank assessments of both her vulnerabilities and her convictions, displaying the same empathy she is celebrated for, while Kylie Pentelo's questions are respectful, thoughtful, and gently probing.

This summary delivers a comprehensive and engaging overview of the podcast episode for listeners and non-listeners alike, capturing the spirit, substance, and humanity of Jacinda Ardern’s unique leadership journey.