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The Interview
Jacob Zuma’s daughters: Polygamy is a subject we lived
00:23:00
Daughters of former South Africa President Jacob Zuma on their new drama The Polygamist
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- [00:00]
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Anne Soy
Hello, I am BBC presenter Anne Soy and this is the interview from the BBC World. The best conversations coming out of the BBC People shaping our world from all over the world.
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Gugu Zuma Ngube
I want to get freedom. I like that.
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Freedom.
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Gugu Zuma Ngube
A gender equal world would be a
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Anne Soy
better world for men too.
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Tuli Zuma
We need acsfire, we need healing, we need trust. These companies don't really they don't care what governments do.
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This is a war. The first thing that we want is
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Tuli Zuma
the war to end.
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Anne Soy
For this interview I met Gugu Zuman Ngube and Tom Lizuma, executive producers of the Polygamist, one of Netflix's most talked about new dramas from South Africa, which takes on the topic of polygamy, the practice of having more than one spouse at the same time. The 22 episode Zulu language series is based on the 2012 novel by Zimbabwean author Su Nyati and is about the tangled love life of wealthy Johannesburg businessman Jonasi Gomorrah Jo Jonasi Jonasi. It begins at the fictional tycoon's funeral where we learn that his widow Joyce, a social media influencer, is not his only partner. In fact, he has two other wives and a mistress who are all dressed in black as well as being executive producers on the drama. Gugu Zumang Nube and Tuli Zuma are daughters of Jacob Zuma, South Africa's former president and a proud polygamist who is greatly respected by his supporters for upholding his cultural and traditional Zulu beliefs. The 84 year old currently has four wives has been married six times and is estimated to have 20 children. Gugu Zwangube and Tuli Zuma's parents divorced in 1998 after 16 years of marriage, and another of their half siblings is also credited as a writer on the series. The success of the show has been huge. In the first week, it attracted 2 million views and was number four on Netflix's top 10 list for non English series globally. You're going to hear about how the sisters upbringing influenced their approach to working on the series.
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Gugu Zuma Ngube
I'm a product of polygamous unions, and so it's a subject that I know I've lived, I've seen up close. And everybody came into the writing room and we brought ourselves, we brought our experiences, we brought everything we could into it. And that includes how I grew up. That includes watching my father. That includes the relationships that I saw him have.
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Anne Soy
Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Gugu Zuma Ngube and Tuli Zuma.
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Gugu Zuma Ngube
We knew that the show that we had created was really something special. We did definitely had the sense that South Africans would engage and would love it. But even the response in this country, this response across Africa and globally has been such a surprise, such a pleasant surprise. We've been ecstatic.
- [04:22]
Tuli Zuma
Every day.
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Gugu Zuma Ngube
We're hearing more reviews, we're getting numbers. It's been incredible, Tuli.
- [04:27]
Tuli Zuma
100% the same. So we were always counting on our local audience who have rode with us over so many shows and always show up to support and then absolutely blown away by how the rest of the world have received this and have, like, really been engaging with it. I mean, listen, some people that I followed online for years, who I'm huge fans of, we're reviewing the show. I've. I've lost all humility. I'm not looking people. People aren't allowed to look me in the eye. I'm, you know, I'm bathing in French champagne at this point.
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Anne Soy
I mean, I'll just read you some of the comments. The Nigerian Afrobeat star Davido says that Yo, Jonasi is wild. And Taraji Hansen, the Hollywood star, also said that this show had her on a chokehold and she binged on it in one day. And I must confess that I also just couldn't stop watching. Like, I kept waiting for the next scene and the next scene. How was it for you working behind the scenes, creating it from scratch? Let's start with you, Gugu.
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Gugu Zuma Ngube
It was amazing. I mean, it's been a labor of love. It's been almost Three years, actually, to the dates of release of us working from development, creating the scripts. We had an incredible writing room led by Busi Zwane, first time head writer. She was incredible, put together an incredible team, and. And it was just. I mean, from there we'd all read the book, loved the book, were excited to bring this book to screen and just came in with it, brought our own experiences, brought, you know, everything that we had to offer as well to the story. And I think the scripts were incredible. Putting together the team for production was a feat, and we were lucky enough to get the sort of people that we've always wanted to work with in some cases and always have worked with in other cases, so people that understand our vision. The team, incredible from post production, we had a group of four female offline editors who were just absolute rock stars. The composer, Zetu, like, it's just like an incredible celebration of African talent. And from the beginning right through to the end, everybody understood the assignment. Everybody loved and respected the type of work and the type of shows that we create. And I think everybody just brought some magic. You know, we can't forget the cast who elevated it, brought their gifts and their special little, you know, spice and nuances to the characters and really just let them live. It's been an incredible journey, and I think we've been doing this for a while, and to finally have a partner like Netflix that is very supportive, loves African stories, stands behind us and how we tell them, and then to get this kind of reaction to the world in, you know, putting ourselves and our worlds and our stories out there, it's been absolutely incredible.
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Anne Soy
And you've said that a lot of the scenes that you see in the show are taken directly out of your lives. I'll come back to that. Gugu Tuli, what is it that connected with you when you read Sue's book?
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Tuli Zuma
When I was reading the book, I'll speak for myself and I'll speak for the writing team, because when we came in, the first thing we did, obviously everyone had read the book, and we spoke for some time at length about what it is we loved about the book and what it is excited us about being able to adapt the book. And as kind of sensational and scandalous as some of the things that Jonasi does are, all of us could relate. It felt grounded in a world that we not only knew, but that we lived in. It felt like all of us, everyone in the writing room, we were a core group of seven black women. And all of us were like, yeah, Jeepers, and when I read this, I was so scandalized. And it reminded me of this, you know, and my father this and my uncle this. And I remember when my brother and I remember when my baby daddy and this one time. And so I think that really is. It is. Even though it feels like it is so out of this world, it is in many ways so a part of the world, our world and our lives and our lived experience. And, of course, I think sue penned it in a way that was so beautiful and so riveting that some of us even, you know, in the room were like, oh, you know, it's not until I was reading the book or not until we were discussing the material that you realize, oh, hey, wait, this is kind of like what happened with my grandfather. And, oh, yeah, hey, I did have a cousin who we thought was just our cousin, but then it turned out they were actually the sibling of my other cousin. And so, yeah, it just felt deeply, deeply relatable.
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Anne Soy
There have been criticisms on the storyline and the depiction of the characters. To just give you some of the, you know, from critics and reviewers, they point out that the central character isn't truly practicing recognized cultural or traditional polygamy. The Mail and Guardian in South Africa says that, you know, the show consistently chooses sensation over subtlety. Was this the message, though? Was this what you set out to depict, that change in, you know, from the traditional polygamy as it was understood in, you know, traditional African society to how it is being practiced now?
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Tuli Zuma
Tuli, you know, this is funny. A friend of mine, after watching the show just recently, two days ago, messaged me and said, jonasi is not a polygamist. He is a perpetual cheat. And I said, you know, you can be both. Yes, polygamy exists traditionally the way it ought to be practiced. And like any system, like any institution, there are those who practice it as it's intended and as it should, and there are those who don't monogamy. You know, if this was a story about a monogamist who was also a cheetah, I don't believe people would be saying, well, this is not traditional monogamy. You can't call it this. Jonasi is a cheater. And the story, ours is not to say this is what polygamy ought to be. Ours is to reflect a part of our reality. It's not a condemnation of polygamy. It's not a affirmation of polygamy. It's to say, here is this one man and the way that he did things. And from the response that we've received. I think what is evident is that Jonasi is not an isolated incident. Jonasi walks amongst us. There are many Jonasi's in the world who are not operating with full transparency. I think if someone took this as us saying this is what polygamy is and engaged with the show just on that basis, there would be a lot that they would be missing out on, and missing out on a great opportunity to really look at what's happening in the world and engage with a lot of what people are going through.
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Anne Soy
And Gugu, you have said that you famously came from a very polygamous family, and I wonder how much Sue's story resonated with your own life.
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Gugu Zuma Ngube
I don't know that the story resonated with my life exactly. But the subject of polygamy I think is something that I'm very much. Yeah, I mean, I grew up, I'm a product of polygamous unions. And so it's a subject that I know I've lived, I've seen up close. And so, as we said, like, everybody came into the writing room and we brought ourselves, we brought our experiences, we brought everything we could into it. And that includes how I grew up, that includes watching my father, that includes the relationships that I saw him have. So I think, yeah, I mean, you bring, you write what you know, as they say in our industry. And so we did bring ourselves into it. The Jonasi as a particular character, whether I saw similarities there, I think that's a bit more tricky. I didn't really like, he's quite an over the top, kind of crazy character. But yeah, I mean, it definitely formed part of the creative process and he really is.
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Anne Soy
There's just so much scandal. And, you know, one of the criticisms has also been that it's a weak take on patriarchy and its enablers, and women are reduced to basically reacting to, you know, the next scandal of the main character. What do you say to that, Gugu?
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Gugu Zuma Ngube
Look, the critics must criticize. That's their job. So I'm just like, keep talking and then call me when you've done something that we can also criticize. But, you know, everybody has their opinion. I think the problem with a single story, and I think from Africa we suffer the sort of issue of having single stories on topics is that I can't satisfy everyone. We can't tell every single story and give every type of perspective in this one show. So we chose a perspective. It was based on a novel that we loved. We kept true to that story and true to the story that we wanted to tell. I think it's resonated with a lot of people. I think it's hit home and struck chords with a lot of people. But I can never try, you know, certain criticism you, you listen to and you're like, you know what? That's, that's fair and that I'm going to take on and, you know, apply to the next project. But a criticism that wants me to take that point of view or that point of view or that point of view is a tricky one for me. I can't take everybody's point of view. And we took a particular one, we stayed true to it and we are very proud of the product that we made. At the end of the day, I think it's not perfect. Nothing is. And let the critics criticize. Everybody needs to earn their salary.
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Anne Soy
You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.
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Anne Soy
made for summer only at Starbucks. I binge watched the Polygamist on Netflix shortly before interviewing the executive producers sisters Gugu Zuma Ngube and Tuli Zuma. Virtually from the opening episode. I couldn't help gasping or shouting in shock at the storyline or plot twist. It's intense, replete with scandal right from the first scene, but also surprisingly relatable upon reflection, especially in modern urban Africa, a society in transition, perhaps torn between pre colonial culture and the realities of modernity and globalization. The Zuma sisters also have a famous father, Jacob Zuma, who married his fifth and sixth wives while president. And in the presence of his other spouses, I remember watching him dancing with gusto, wearing the traditional Zulu leopard skin outfit during one of the ceremonies. It's the context that makes the much talked about gripping show feel like a mirror in today's sub Saharan Africa. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Gugu Zuma Ngube and Tuli Zuma. The intensity of it, you know, just when you're getting to know the characters. They hit you with something, and then there's a plot twist, and, you know, there's just a huge amount of shock in almost every episode. Was that intentional, Tuli?
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Tuli Zuma
It was. So at the end of the day, we're telling a story, and it is existing on a streaming platform in which we want to take the audience on a ride and we want them to stay with us. And so I think, of course, when you look at the 22 episodes back to back, it is kind of very explosive and very shocking. And I think if you played those 22 episodes over 20 years, what you have is someone's life that is so normalized in our society that you don't even realize how wild it is. And I think that's part of some of the conversations I've been having. And the feedback I've gotten is, you know, you watch it and you go, wow, that is too much. You guys. You guys did too much. You did too much. But then the more people sit with it, they go like, oh, yeah, yeah. Actually, I do remember when I was 8, this one thing happened between my parents. Sure. And then when I was 17, I remember finding out that my two cousins were actually siblings. And I remember. So, of course, it's a TV show. It's a story told for a particular format. It has to keep you engaged. It's not a documentary. It's a telenovela. And so, yes, that was intentional for the format. And if you pull it out and if these weren't 22 episodes, but they were 22 years, I think what you'd find and the conversation that has been happening is, yeah, this is life. And I think that's the strength of the show, actually seeing it like that. No holds barred.
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Gugu Zuma Ngube
Go, go, go.
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Tuli Zuma
The way it's put together like that enables people to go, oh, wait, some of the stuff that happened to me was actually wild. That actually isn't normal. It's like, you know, but I was a frog in a pot with the heat being turned up slowly, so I never noticed. But with the show, you're thrown right into boiling water and you go like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This isn't normal. This isn't comfortable. And so, yes, that was the intention, and I think it still points to a lived reality.
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Anne Soy
And the other lived reality as well is HIV and aids. Southern Africa is the most affected region of the world by HIV and aids. But there has been some critique also of how the subject is handled in the show with the wife of the main character, Joyce Going to get somebody who has HIV to have relations with her husband in order to pass the infection on to him. Were you setting out to achieve a shock factor?
- [20:11]
Gugu Zuma Ngube
No, I don't think we were setting out to achieve shock factor. So like sue was saying, I mean, we grew up in KZN in the 90s.
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Anne Soy
KAZULU Natal Province.
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Gugu Zuma Ngube
Yes, sorry, Kal province in South Africa. In the 90s, HIV and AIDS was doing there what they were predicting it would do in 20 years time in sub Saharan Africa. It was decimating that province. So we grew up with uncles, with family members, with cousins with aunts with the disease. We were going to funerals on a Tuesday and finding there's seven others right next to you. The disease was decimating the province. We grew up with people who had weird beliefs around the disease who wouldn't seek medical attention when they should and when it could have saved their lives. We're in a context now in South Africa where HIV infections are on the rise. And there's a sense to which a lot of the younger people who maybe didn't live through what we lived through, who maybe didn't get the messaging that we got treating this disease in a light and callous way that is alarming to us, is alarming to the health department in South Africa, which is why a lot of them jumped on the sort of the polygamous messaging to bring about messaging around HIV and aids. So we take it seriously. And it was something that has seriously affected all of us. I think, in the context of the story. Number one, the HIV piece was there in the source material. And you know, as much as there are very many ways this disease can be transmitted and one can get infected, there is a real sort of behavioral aspect that was dealt with in the book that is a teachable moment to say there's certain precautions you can take, like multiple sexual partners with unprotected sex is a massive danger. And it can bring about a certain context. Of course, in the show that we created, which wasn't necessarily the way the book was structured, Joyce came out with a mission. Joyce was stuck. She was a woman who was stuck and felt like she was out of options. In the first episode, she mistakenly lights something on fire. It creates this fire and puts in her mind this idea that this guy could have died and what would that mean for my life? And from that episode on, she goes about trying to kill this man who has visited so much trauma and pain on her life. She does multiple things to try. They don't work. And in the end she says, you know what, let me use something that his behavior could have brought about anyway. And I think she says at some point that I don't know what your status was, the way you were moving, quite possible you were infected already. But this is what I did right. I think it was used for, you know, the story to give us great cliffhangers and all of that. We weren't using HIV as purely a sensational tool. I think we were trying to drive home a message and of course create plots and drama in our story as well. And I think it's a subject we take very seriously. And I think it's a subject that is very serious in South Africa right now. And I think there are lessons to be learned from these characters and the choices that they made.
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Anne Soy
So what next? How are you planning to build on the popularity of this show?
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Gugu Zuma Ngube
We are just trying to take a moment and breathe it in and enjoy what's happening right now. I think discussions about what next will come, but we're not quite there yet.
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Tuli Zuma
Tuli Absolutely. This show has been a long time coming, like Gugu said, three years. We're working on it before its release and so it's been out in the world about three weeks. And we really are just enjoying having it living and breathing in the world, having people engage with it, hearing what everyone has to say. That really is we don't want to skip over this part too fast. And so we're really just taking it all in and really appreciative to everyone who has taken the time to give it a try, give it a shot, to watch it. And even more for the people who then take to the socials to share their views on it. Whether it's criticisms that they have or praise of the show. We really have been so humbled by the engagement and the interaction and the support we've received.
- [24:42]
Anne Soy
Thank you for listening to the interview. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with Kenyan businesswoman Jennifer Raria, astronaut Victor Glover, and Hinge dating app CEO Jackie Jantos. Until next time, bye for now.
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