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The Interview
Jordan Bardella, National Rally leader: France must control immigration
00:22:59
Nick Robinson speaks to National Rally leader Jordan Bardella about his vision for France
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- [00:00]
Nick Robinson
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:06]
Ray Winstone
Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.
- [00:21]
Narrator/Voiceover
And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head.
- [00:28]
Ray Winstone
Tough enough for you?
- [00:30]
Jordan Bardella
Tough.
- [00:30]
Ray Winstone
Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.
- [00:36]
Martha Stewart
The holidays are about giving something truly special. I'm Martha Stewart and I believe the best gifts aren't just beautiful, they're useful every single day. Lennox has brought timeless beauty and lasting quality to our tables for generations. And their Lennox Spice Village is the perfect holiday gift for for someone you love or for yourself. It's more than a spice rack. It's a charming collection of hand painted houses that turn ordinary spices into extraordinary experiences. Imagine cinnamon from a tiny Victorian cottage or oregano from a pastel townhouse. Suddenly, a simple meal becomes a moment to savor. Because spices can be more than ingredients. They can inspire memories, warmth and joy all year long. Give a gift that lasts beyond the holidays. Discover the collection@lennox.com SpiceVillage.
- [01:37]
Nick Robinson
Hello, I'm Nick Robinson, BBC presenter and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC people shaping our world from all over the world. Today we are spending trillions on war.
- [01:51]
Jordan Bardella
And peanuts on peace. Wind power in the United States has been subsidized for 33 years. Isn't that enough?
- [01:57]
Nick Robinson
Solar for 25 years, that's enough.
- [01:59]
Jordan Bardella
I don't have army, I don't have missile rockets.
- [02:03]
Martha Stewart
I have my body, I have my voice.
- [02:05]
Jordan Bardella
I love singing. And so my goal was always to do better and better at it. I was still in an induced coma.
- [02:12]
Nick Robinson
In hospital when the world was defining me. For this interview, I meet Jordan Bardella, leader of the far right National Rally Party in France. The 30 year old is currently leading the polls to become the country's next president in 2027. He's on a media tour to woo business and to persuade the world that his party is now mainstream, despite its history. It used to be called the National Front. It was founded by Jean Marie Le Pen, a convicted racist and Holocaust denier. His daughter Marine, rebranded the party and expelled her father from it. But she's currently barred from public office after a conviction from bezzling EU funds, a verdict she plans to appeal. In her absence, her protege Jordan Bardella finds himself in charge. He maintains the party's change since its history as the National Front. In this interview, you'll hear why Monsieur Bardella rejects suggestions that his party is racist. He he also says if he becomes president, he'll call a referendum on immigration to take back control of France's borders.
- [03:16]
Jordan Bardella
I do not see France as a country that must be closed, but I believe that we must control our immigration. Of course, we must be able to welcome people who come to work to contribute to our national story and to the country's economic wealth. But it is true that we can no longer be the most lax country in Europe.
- [03:39]
Nick Robinson
Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Jordan Bardella.
- [03:48]
Jordan Bardella
Listen, I believe there is a wind of freedom and national pride blowing across all major Western democracies. And it is true that President Trump in the United States was an expression of that current stream of ideas of that great popular movement. Now Trump defends his country's interests. I respect leaders who defend their country's interests. What I criticize French leaders for, and European leaders more broadly, is for not defending their country's interest strongly enough. It is true that Trump was giving a nod to patriotic parties around the world, and I welcome that with a certain goodwill. But as for me, I wish to defend the interests of my country tomorrow. I do not like this vassalization of Europe towards any great power. Ultimately, we My project is both the greatness, the freedom and the independence of France and of Europe.
- [04:39]
Nick Robinson
Do you agree with the language that is used in this strategy document by the United States? It says there's a very real prospect of civilizational erasure. It warns that European countries could become majority non European. Is that your view?
- [05:02]
Jordan Bardella
Yes, to a large extent. I share that assessment. It is true that mass immigration and the laxity of our leaders over the past 30 years regarding migration policies are today disrupting the power balance of European societies, Western societies, and particularly the French society. I grew up in a region called Saint Sagnis, an area that receives a very large amount of immigration parts, particularly from Africa and North Africa. And of course, when you open the floodgates of immigration, then you bring in people, and through family reunification, you bring in even more people who also come with their culture, their language, their customs and their way of life. Look, I do not see France as a country that must be closed, but I believe that we must control our immigration. And I believe that tomorrow and the day after France should no longer be a country of mass immigration. Of course, we must be able to welcome people who come to work, to contribute to our national story and to the country's economic wealth. But it is true that we can no longer be the most lax country in Europe.
- [06:14]
Nick Robinson
There are politicians all over Europe who could say what you say. But you go much further. You talk about the European people disappearing. You talk about French people being submerged by migrants. Now, in a second, we talk maybe about the detail of policy. But let's focus on what you're doing here. You've been a busy man. You've been to Israel to visit the Holocaust Museum. You've been wooing French business leaders. You've been meeting with the Economist magazine. You're now here at the BBC. Your job is this, isn't it? You're trying to say to people, we're not extremists anymore, we're not racist anymore.
- [06:56]
Jordan Bardella
Yes, it is. In any case, about fighting against the caricatures made of my political movement, of my ideas, of its members, activists and parliamentarians. I lead a political party, National Rally, thanks to the trust given to me by Marine Le Pen. And today, in every poll and every voting intention published in France, we are the party predicted to win the next legislative elections and the next presidential election. So my responsibility is obviously to bring the French people together and to present the country with a project of national recovery. Because my country, France, is in an economic, social, financial, budgetary and security situation that is extremely difficult. And this means that expectations for change and disruption are extremely high among my people, among the French people. I want to save my country, but I also want France, internationally and around us, to reconnect with its vocation as a civilization nation. That is, a country capable of defending its interest on the European stage, while also being able to work with European partners.
- [08:11]
Nick Robinson
You call it a cliche about your party. It's a fact. Your party was a racist party. It is the history of the National Rally after it stopped being the National Front. You know, although you're a young man, you only met him briefly. Jean Marie Le Pen described the gas chambers used by the Nazis to murder millions of Jews in this continent as a footnote in history, to be taken seriously. Do you not need to say to people, we were a racist party. We need to change?
- [08:48]
Jordan Bardella
I reject these accusations because there has never been, in the DNA or in the proposal of the National Front, now, the National Rally, any statements or proposals intending to harm or offend groups of people in my country. However, it is true that there were remarks, notably made by Jean Marie Le Pen, which eventually caused a political rupture between Jean Marie Le Pen, the party's founder and Marine Le Pen, then its president, on the key issue of fighting antisemitism. She judged that Jean Marie Le Pen's ambiguities and verbal provocations were dragging the entire political movement into an unacceptable situation. And so in 2015, Marine Le Pen, as I remind you, took the responsibility, an extremely difficult personal decision, of expelling her own father from the National Front. I believe that the Holocaust was one of the greatest atrocities committed by the Nazis during the Second World War. And a few months ago, I traveled to Israel at the invitation of the Israeli government. I visited Yad Vashem in Jerusalem because this duty of remembrance is essential. And today in France, we have many French citizens of Jewish faith who vote for the National Rally and. And who consider us a shield, particularly in the fight against Islamist fundamentalism.
- [10:15]
Nick Robinson
I, too want to look forward to talk to you about what you would do if you were President of France or indeed Prime Minister. But just I need to remind you, when you say this is not in your party's DNA, racism.
- [10:29]
Martha Stewart
Even.
- [10:30]
Nick Robinson
Nigel Farage, who you're meeting for lunch after this interview, refused to have anything to do with your party because he said it was filled with prejudice and anti. Semitism. The chief Rabbi here in the UK refused to be at the conference you went to in Jerusalem because he said of the attendance of far right populace, including you. It's not yet in your past, is it? You might want it to be, but it isn't.
- [11:01]
Jordan Bardella
Well, I answer them by saying that the only French political leader to have been invited to Jerusalem in Israel for an international conference on the fight against antisemitism was myself in the year 2025, and that I have always been absolutely unambiguous on this subject. I fight all forms of hatred, all forms of racism and all forms of violence. Now I am president of the National Rally. I am not president of the National Front. The political party has evolved. What matters to me now is the judgment of people, the judgment of the French. And I see many French citizens of Jewish faith placing their trust in us more and more each day. And I welcome that.
- [11:48]
Nick Robinson
You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.
- [11:51]
Martha Stewart
Please.
- [11:51]
Nick Robinson
People shaping our world from all over the world.
- [11:56]
Ray Winstone
Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.
- [12:11]
Narrator/Voiceover
And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head.
- [12:19]
Ray Winstone
Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.
- [12:27]
Martha Stewart
I'm Martha Stewart and I believe the best gifts are not only beautiful, but useful every single day. And Lennox has brought timeless beauty and lasting quality to our tables for generations, and their Lennox Spice Village is the perfect holiday gift for someone you love or for yourself. Spice Village transforms everyday spices into inspired memories filled with warmth and joy all year long. Give a gift that lasts beyond the holidays. Discover the collection@lenox.com SpiceVillage.
- [13:04]
Nick Robinson
For this episode of the interview, I'm speaking to Jordan Bardella. I'd never met him before, but I had seen the charisma people talk of as they watch him at huge public rallies, signing books for cues of adoring fans and posting to his 2 million followers on TikTok. There is no doubt he is a man with plenty of the charisma you need to reach high office charisma, but also quite a lot of steel. One thing that struck me in particular though, is that Monsieur Bardella, despite keeping his composure throughout our interview, despite being charming and polite at the end of it, expressed surprise, shock, even that I'd asked him questions. He said he was rarely asked these days in France about the roots of his party, about the National Front, about Jean Marie Le Pen. Let's return to hear more of that conversation with Jordan Bardella. Let's talk about your story and what is interesting about you as you talk of France for the French is that your parents were not French. One parent. Your mother was born in Italy. Your father was born to an Algerian mother and an Italian father as the son of immigrants. Why is it that you are stirring up anger with immigrants?
- [14:32]
Jordan Bardella
I am indeed a product of immigration and I belong to a generation of people from immigrant backgrounds who, when they arrived in France, did everything they could to become French. Not partially, but fully, to embrace the national story, the language, the culture, the heritage, to blend into the national community and ultimately to become French in both heart and mind. There are many people in our country, in France, which is the country I know best, who made this demanding effect thought when coming from abroad, from elsewhere, to become completely from here and to become French. And we must never forget the extremely demanding efforts made by entire generations of people from immigrant backgrounds. But it is also true that today many people arrive in our country and seem exempt from this effort. In many parts of France, we see people who are unquestionably from here, born in France, raised in French schools. But who, through the messages they share on social media, in the streets, through the way they challenge our history or sometimes reject republican institutions such as the police, or values like secularism, clearly have their hearts elsewhere. And for me, it is this difference, this injustice, that fundamentally troubles me.
- [15:52]
Nick Robinson
You say in the book that you produced that you had a feeling of becoming a foreigner in your own country. You've talked, as I mentioned, of French people being submerged by migrants. You, at your rallies, they chant, this is our home. So I want to ask you, who exactly is French? Because you now say it is not good enough to be born in France. Even if you are born in France, Jordan Bardella says you are not French. So who is French?
- [16:28]
Jordan Bardella
The French are those whose heart bled the day Notre Dame burned. I believe that being French, obviously there are administrative considerations, but to me, being French is firstly an honor. Being French also means adhering to values, adhering to ways of life. It also means recognizing equality between men and women. And it is true that today, in a number of French areas and suburbs, banlieue, as we say, another culture is taking root, seeing relations between men and women differently, sometimes asking little girls aged five or six to wear an Islamic veil, sometimes demanding separate hours at swimming pool. Of course, all of this is a problem for me. So yes, I am a defender of secularism, and I believe that today Islamism has become a fully fledged political project, one that does not seek to live separately from French society, but rather to impose all its prohibitions upon it. However, I believe there are French citizens of Muslim faith who fully respect the values of the republic and who do not want France to resemble another country or to see sharia applied in some towns. France has a republican tradition that I defend called republican assimilation. Republican assimilation means do not come as you are, become what we are. And I ask nothing more from people arriving in our country than to resemble us, to live in the French way, and to respect the effort made by previous generations of immigrants, including my own Misha Bardada.
- [18:11]
Nick Robinson
You say that you would welcome people who want to be French if they can sing the national anthem, if they can support the football team. But that is not your policy. Your policy is what you call now national priority, priorite national, or the national preference. It means that if you work in France, you live in France, you pay taxes in France, you have your children in France, you, Jordan Bardella, still say you're not really French. You will not get welfare benefits, you will not get health care, you will not get social housing. So it is not just about Integrating is it? You wish to choose people that you think are really French and those people who you think are not really French.
- [19:05]
Jordan Bardella
What you are saying here does not correspond to my program because in my concept of national priority, meaning the possibility from the French state to give priority to French citizens in access to social housing or social benefits, this priority is first and foremost for French nationals. I consider that the French, without any other distinction, those who hold a French identity card, because they have only one home and only one country, must have priority access to social housing. Today, one third of social housing in France is occupied by immigrants. 33% of immigrants on French soil, according to INSE, the official French statistics Institute, live in social housing. We also have what I call social window immigration, meaning people who come to our country to benefit from social aid. I say something very simple. If tomorrow you want to receive, for example, family allowances or social benefits, one of your two parents must be a French national. However, for contributory social benefits such as unemployment insurance, there is no difficulty. If you are a foreigner in France, you pay into the system. And if tomorrow or the day after you become unemployed, you will have access to these benefits because you have contributed to them. But it will no longer be possible to come to France, for example, and receive free health care.
- [20:38]
Nick Robinson
Let me ask you about another big policy, the war in Ukraine. Now, your party wants to be trusted, and yet you've traditionally been quite close to Russia. Marine Le Pen took money from Russia for her presidential campaign. If you were in the talks now about ending the war, would you still insist there can be no French troops on Ukrainian soil? There can be no weapons given to Ukraine to attack Russia, There can be no EU membership for Ukraine. And wouldn't that be a victory for Vladimir Putin?
- [21:18]
Jordan Bardella
Well, I consider that Russia today represents a multidimensional threat to French and European interests. We see this in particular in Africa, in our historical zones of influence, where France's influence has declined in recent years under the political and military pressures of the Wagner militias. We see it in our overseas territories where Russia systematically sides with foreign countries that claim sovereignty over French territories located overseas. And we see it regularly when French military personnel are targeted by the Russian Federation. And as you mentioned, we have seen it over the past three years at the gates of Europe. Now, I would just like, if you allow me, to clarify one point. More than a decade ago, no French bank, no European bank at the time, had agreed to lend to the National Front. And we found this Czech Russian bank that made a loan at, I believe, 6%, you will agree that this was not a friendly loan with a bank that has since gone bankruptcy. I believe that when you are tied to the Kremlin, by definition you do not go bankrupt. In Russia. My first decision as president of the National Rally was to immediately repay this loan. So we are beholden to nothing, neither money nor political interest. I have condemned, and we as a party have condemned, without any ambiguity, Russia's aggression against Ukraine. Today we must bring Western countries to the table. This process has largely begun in recent months to establish conditions that allow Ukraine to implement a ceasefire, but above all, to secure the guarantees for its safety, because that is the real issue. And once again, Russia is a multi dimensional threat. I believe we must be extremely cautious. And I am firmly opposed to sending troops to Ukraine because I consider that it would contribute to an escalation, especially given that we have nuclear weapons and that President Putin has intentions whose limits no one can know.
- [23:32]
Nick Robinson
I understand. Monsieur Bardella, I hesitate to end our interview by pointing out that I'm double your age. You're just 30. You dropped out of university. The only job you had outside politics was with your father's firm. Do you really think you're qualified to run a country with nuclear weapons which is on the UN Security Council, which is one of the largest economies in Europe?
- [24:00]
Jordan Bardella
First of all, it is up to the French people to decide and choose whether they consider us credible and close to their concerns. If I believe the results of the last election, and certainly the results of polls conducted by your colleagues in France, a majority, at least potentially, of French citizens, or grant us both legitimacy and the ability to address the country's problems. So I prepare every day, I work every day, and I strive to listen to my fellow citizens. It is true that I am 30 years old. Unfortunately, there is nothing I can do about that. If all goes well, I will be 35 in five years and 40 in 10 years. It is also true that I'm not one of these leaders who's been coasting away for 30 or 40 years in French political life. But the environment in which I grew up made me aware very early and at a young age of a number of urgent issues which today remain the existential urgencies of my country. And I fight for them. And I prefer that people tell me today that it is too early, rather than come and tell me tomorrow that it is too late.
- [25:16]
Nick Robinson
Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with author Sir Salman Rushdie. Freedom of Speech campaigner Maria Ressa and former Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern. Until the next time. Goodbye for now.
- [25:48]
Ray Winstone
Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.
- [26:02]
Narrator/Voiceover
And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head.
- [26:10]
Ray Winstone
Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.
- [26:18]
Martha Stewart
The holidays are about giving something truly special. I'm Martha Stewart and I believe the best gifts aren't just beautiful, they're useful every single day. Lennox has brought timeless beauty and lasting quality to our tables for generations, and their Lennox Spice Village is the perfect holiday gift for someone you love or for yourself. It's more than a spice rack. It's a charming collection of hand painted houses that turn ordinary spices into extraordinary experiences. Imagine cinnamon from a tiny Victorian cottage or oregano from a pastel townhouse. Suddenly, a simple meal becomes a moment to savor. Because spices can be more than ingredients, they can inspire memories, warmth and joy all year long. Give a gift that lasts beyond the holidays. Discover the collection@lenox.com SpiceVillage.